BBC has become a tabloid and this article resonates that.
I also don't understand why is it that we need to dumb things down for people to be interested in it? Technical details are interesting even if I don't fully understand it. It shows rigor and depth on the journalist's part.
Expecting more from the BBC will only result in further disappointment. They know their audience and know that they can drop a word like science for immediate, unquestionable authority on the topic without having to provide substantial evidence.
This is why I bristle when people use that word these days. It's used as a trump card and as a way to castigate those who people disagree with politically (science deniers) without having to have a real conversation. Science is messy, contradictory, and constantly evolving and that's why true scientists love it! It is by no means something to stand blindly behind and to use as a baton against your enemies.
Whether or not a social/economic handicap are necessarily "very bad things" depends entirely on the social and economic goals of the individual in question. Some people are satisfied with having enough, and have no interest in participating in the race to the top of the food chain their whole lives.
That's not how it works: we've build a "winner take it all" or at least a "winner takes more" society... differences get amplified: if you earn 10% less than a similarly competent but more socially adept peer today, you'll earn 25% less 5 year from now, maybe 50% less 10 year later etc... Then when you take on a bank credit/loan you get a slightly higher interest option, when you buy a house or land you get a slightly worse deal and so on.
Sure some shy people hit jackpots, they invent cool stuff that catches on, maybe the co-found companies... but most don't.
It's horribly imho! But this is the truth, this is the society/world we live in :|
(See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_effect - and I'm afraid might not even be bc of our particular current society, it might come from the very math and physics of how selection and evolution work...)
"Not everybody is frantically trying to be the next ultra-billionaire" ...as long as things work out for you, yeah, maybe, but when shit hits the fan it might be more about not ending up depressed-to-suicide by being the poorest chap in the neighborhood or not ending up unable to get health insurance!
I know this is alien to you, but many people do not care one wit about being the richest in the neighborhood. It is within the capacity of a human being to break themselves free from the "keeping up with the Joneses" race, but perhaps not within the capacity of every individual. If you're the sort of hyper-competitive person who becomes borderline suicidal because their shy personality limits them to an adequate income, then obviously you're going to be in for a rough life. But that experience is not universal.
(Also, it's absurd to say anybody who is shy is doomed to have no health insurance.)
> I know this is alien to you, but many people do not care one wit about being the richest in the neighborhood.
There's some middle ground between being the richest and not being the poorest. Most people want to be relatively well off and not struggle to make ends meet, even if, compared to somebody 200 years ago, they are in much better circumstances.
> "Most people want to be relatively well off and not struggle to make ends meet,"
'Relatively well off' is subjective, and for many people it means "not struggle to make ends meet", e.g. 'adequate income'.
There are certainly some paths through life in which a shy person will have difficulty making even a modest income. A shy person trying to work as a salesman would probably find life very difficult. However there are plenty of other sorts of jobs that suit shy people, and provide income that many people consider to be adequate.
My sense is that most people here would be happy with a secure and intellectually interesting life. I think the people who want to be billionaires don’t waste time posting here.
> My sense is that most people here would be happy with a secure and intellectually interesting life.
I believe that most here have that. Sure, security isn't objectively measured, you can have $10m an still feel insecure about the future, but I doubt that there are many (relatively) here that don't know how they will pay rent next month.
I think it's a bit more complex than that. In the past, segregation of duties at companies was much more common than it is today. If you were an introverted techie, there was no shortage of jobs where you could focus on that aspect of the job while the majority of the human interaction aspects were handled by someone else.Now, it is much more common that those two jobs have been rolled into one - it's obviously more efficient, and provided there is a ready supply of people that can handle (or more accurately, are perceived to be able to handle) this dual role, it works out great for the employer and arguably the aggregate productivity of society.
But what is often overlooked whenever looking at the world through an aggregate lens is the impact at the individual level. Yes, there certainly are some "pure technical" jobs out there, the pickings are slimmer than they used to be, at least for the average introverted technical person (top x-percenters can still make their way just fine, but is x in this context shrinking over time?).
You're right that some industries have become less hospitable to shy people. But frankly I've always seen tech as a high-effort/high-payoff sort of industry. Where, even if that meritocratic ideal is far from realized in practice, it's still a large factor in why many people are in the industry. They plan on working as hard as they can to get the best payout they can. This is an inherently competitive environment, which consequently will tend to be hostile to introverts.
That's not to say an introvert can't do well in the industry. But if the individual in question is hyper-competitive in addition to being shy, they're probably going to hate the experience. The trait of hyper-competitiveness does not sit well with shyness.
My point though is that it is becoming increasingly difficult to be competitive at all for those who are shy or unable/unwilling to engage in the theatrics required in an increasing percentage of technical roles. The degree to which this is true I do not know, but I feel quite certain that it has increased significantly.
It's a handicap mostly imposed by other people and external systems. I think the point of asking the question is to get people to reconsider imposing those handicaps on other people.
I am often very shy and I agree that it’s a big handicap. It’s just like any other anxiety that limits your life so there is nothing good about it. Being an introvert is another thing though. If you are alone because if your choice instead is fear there is nothing wrong with that.
In the end it’s about choice. Shyness removes choices. I have missed a lot of things in my life I would have liked to join in but was too shy and afraid.
I would add that it's a handicap with no accessibility. Many designs are undertaken with physical handicap, disabilities and disorders in mind. Rarely is shyness accommodated in like fashion or treated as a handicap to be accepted. The prevailing sentiment is that it's a feeling that can be outgrown (eg. we often hear the phrase "don't be shy" as if it's something a person has complete control over).
It is something that you have control over though. Unlike an amputated arm, you have the ability to make a choice to eschew shyness in favor of some outgoing mode of interaction. It's not going to be pleasant initially if you're not used to it, but you still have the choice to take that action. You might even choke up due to a nervous system response that actually is out of your control, but that response can be dampened with practice.
I say this as someone who generally has difficulty socializing, but I try regardless. It gets easier.
I don't think they are saying being shy is bad itself, but that it gives you a distinct disadvantage in the modern world, especially in the work place and in politics.
Rationally this is correct. But when you talk to people and all inner alarm bells go off it's really hard to stay relaxed. That's how it is for me. I know pretty well that people mostly don't think badly of me but the thought is still there.
This hits home. I totally agree with you, as I have noticed that it is much easier to give a rational and imo good advice to other people in this kind of situations than to actually give a similar kind of advice to yourself (and follow through on it) when you are facing it.
And then I fell in love, at which point I stopped caring about what other people thought of me... I only cared about what the target of my affection thought.
Which was terrible for that relationship because I was extremely shy around her, but it somewhat cured my shyness around other people when I wasn't with her.
Which resulted in a positive feedback loop, wherein my shyness slowly disappeared entirely. I'm still an introvert, and lack experience in certain social situations which I always avoided when younger, but I don't consider myself shy anymore.
Not something easily emulated, but I thought I'd share my perspective anyway.
I'm shy because I feel I'm not cool, smart, or successful enough to be deserving of happiness and friendship, which is ridiculous when you think about it, but it's what goes on in my head. I really want to stop this, but it's hard once you've lived it for so long.
What's interesting is that some of my best friends have been people that society would judge as unsuccessful, not smart, and not cool. Mutually feeling accepted by one another is a big part of it I think, but I never really thought about it other than "chemistry".
I think one of the biggest mistakes of my life was falling into a depression/sadness hole and making friends with other depressed and sad people. It continues the cycle. And many of these people are not as nice and accepting as you'd be led to believe (applies to myself, too! something I've been changing.)
Eh, I wouldn't say it was a mistake. Those people got you through a tough time, and I'm sure it was mutual. Now you realize you want something different, and that's okay too.
I used to be unbalanced regarding this. I could go from sweaty paranoid anxiety attack in some non geek group to smooth girl talker in my CS class group.
It made me even more insane how I could wave back and forth that much. It's also telling that a big chunk of it is due to how you perceive you relatively to the env.
I still remind myself about a week spent at an athletic training camp. Since nobody knew the "real me" I took a risk and introduced myself as the happy, content, talkative, cool person I wanted to be. Much to my shock, people bought it! For that week, I was the person others wanted to talk to and hang out with. It was great, really fantastic, and showed me how the person we "are" is all in our heads. I lapsed back into being quiet, sad, and depressed after that, but it was such an eye-opener.
Interesting story (and experiment). I think along our lives we have moments where we can reset our social self (summer holidays far from home) and grow / rewire a lot of our preconceptions.
All in all I wouldn't say it's all in our minds, even though we inherit genes and traits from our family but as you saw yourself, it's also a balancing effort with our surroundings. If you're misjudged you will face an uphill battle, if you get a friendly start it will change our you feel, live and create your persona.
Yeah, though I think people have an uncanny ability to pick up on how you portray yourself and then reflect that back at you. Even 30 seconds of initial interaction gone poorly is enough to guide the rest of the relationship, maybe even for years.
Yep, and it's something that is subtle and rarely taught. Having the natural tendancy to ~fight for your status so your position is neutral with respect to others.
That sounds more like a lack of self-esteem than shyness. It would be good for you to look for a psychologist who introduces into your head the right ideas to overcome it.
I know because I've been there; even if self-esteem reinforcement looks like simple and obvious ideas, it helps if someone tells them aloud to you. Irrational behaviors are not solved by reasoning them away, you have to practice how to fix them.
On "cool, smart, or successful" and "deserving of happiness", you might want to hear what the Stoic philosopher, Epictetus, had to say:
One central message [of his book, "Discourses, Fragments, Handbook"] is that the basis for happiness or well-being is 'up to us' and that we all have the capacity to move towards this state, regardless of our specific social context or individual character. [...] Epictetus also stresses that this capacity forms an integral and inalienable part of what makes human beings distinctive in the natural universe, as well as the prime expression of what is 'divine' within us.
I am a living, breathing, oxymoron. I have no problem in social situations once I am in them but I have tremendous problems getting into them. Then, once I am in them, I enjoy it for about an hour or two before I am screaming in my own head: "GET ME THE #$@# OUT OF HERE!!!" then once I get out I am good for a few days before I think to myself: "My life sucks I wish I wasn't such a loner" and since I have trouble getting into social situations I can be stuck on the "My life sucks..." stuff for months, sometimes years.
I would love to get another girlfriend... its been about 6 years now. Worst thing is the women I am interested in are even more shy than myself and I live in a part of the country where apparently woman are much more shy on average.
Oh man, does this sound familiar... I think my potential barrier for engaging in a social encounter is lower than yours, but the general pattern is the same. I hate being around people for too long but then I crave their company.
The worst part is.. I feel like I have something to offer. I have a sense of humor, a steady job, I am an artist, a musician, a poet, I am respectful and supportive, passionate and a hopeless romantic... but no one will ever know because apparently I am also a huge #$@% XD
When I was single, once I realized breaking the ice was 80% of the battle, my world opened up.
People already have a good idea if they like you or not within 10 seconds. If their cues aren't that of someone trying to exit a conversation then you have the green light.
I was a very shy child due to severe emotional abuse. I assumed everyone was going to demand the same interactions and therefore avoided interactions. Helping me see it was basically the same as overcoming it.
If you are shy with girls there is a good chance there is something in your past with a prominent female figure, likely a mother figure.
It is so odd. I like to be alone, but I like to know that I have a social interaction planned for later in the day, etc, so that I’m not guaranteed to be alone for the WHOLE day. And then once I’m there, I’m eager to get back to being by myself.
Is it possible you aren't initiating or entering (getting into) social situations because of the fear of rejection or the fear of an awkward situation?
> I enjoy it for about an hour or two before I am screaming in my own head: "GET ME THE #$@# OUT OF HERE!!!"
You don't need to beat yourself up about this - if you have a low social drive and are satisfied after an hour or two, feel free to leave. Don't tough it out because you say that society says that you should be having fun.
Here are some physiological (or maybe I should just say verbal) reasons that contribute to my own shyness (that i suspect others experience as well):
1. I have a difficult time verbalizing my thoughts, and I'm very self-conscious about it, which keeps me relatively quiet a lot of the time. I feel like there is a chasm between my brain and my mouth.
2. I find social 'banter', especially the type you find in group conversation, contrived and difficult to participate in. A one-on-one conversation with a person is much easier for me to participate in.
Funnily enough I met somebody the other day who explained what it could be. Namely, a physiological disorder where not being able to easily understand sounds, i.e. to not have the ability to decipher them effectively.
Equally it does exactly that when you speak; you can't quite make it smooth and flowing, because the feedback of even your own voice is lacking in efficiency.
Song lyrics is another thing that is hard to understand.
It makes group chat and banter very, very tiring because you're just having to spend tonnes of energy just keeping "with it".
It's known as audio processing dissorder, and it's not all together uncommon.
I often think that shyness is rather a natural protection (like an immune response) against a world that is simply full off assholes. So you should really carefully consider whether you want to overcome your shyness.
I was really hoping the article would have had some interesting lifehacker type tips for overcoming shyness. Alas I am disappointed with an earwax flavored jelly bean.
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[ 3.5 ms ] story [ 123 ms ] threadI also don't understand why is it that we need to dumb things down for people to be interested in it? Technical details are interesting even if I don't fully understand it. It shows rigor and depth on the journalist's part.
This is why I bristle when people use that word these days. It's used as a trump card and as a way to castigate those who people disagree with politically (science deniers) without having to have a real conversation. Science is messy, contradictory, and constantly evolving and that's why true scientists love it! It is by no means something to stand blindly behind and to use as a baton against your enemies.
in today's world it most definitely is a very bad thing. It's a social and economic handicap.
Sure some shy people hit jackpots, they invent cool stuff that catches on, maybe the co-found companies... but most don't.
It's horribly imho! But this is the truth, this is the society/world we live in :|
(See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_effect - and I'm afraid might not even be bc of our particular current society, it might come from the very math and physics of how selection and evolution work...)
(Also, it's absurd to say anybody who is shy is doomed to have no health insurance.)
There's some middle ground between being the richest and not being the poorest. Most people want to be relatively well off and not struggle to make ends meet, even if, compared to somebody 200 years ago, they are in much better circumstances.
'Relatively well off' is subjective, and for many people it means "not struggle to make ends meet", e.g. 'adequate income'.
There are certainly some paths through life in which a shy person will have difficulty making even a modest income. A shy person trying to work as a salesman would probably find life very difficult. However there are plenty of other sorts of jobs that suit shy people, and provide income that many people consider to be adequate.
My sense is that most people here would be happy with a secure and intellectually interesting life. I think the people who want to be billionaires don’t waste time posting here.
I believe that most here have that. Sure, security isn't objectively measured, you can have $10m an still feel insecure about the future, but I doubt that there are many (relatively) here that don't know how they will pay rent next month.
But what is often overlooked whenever looking at the world through an aggregate lens is the impact at the individual level. Yes, there certainly are some "pure technical" jobs out there, the pickings are slimmer than they used to be, at least for the average introverted technical person (top x-percenters can still make their way just fine, but is x in this context shrinking over time?).
That's not to say an introvert can't do well in the industry. But if the individual in question is hyper-competitive in addition to being shy, they're probably going to hate the experience. The trait of hyper-competitiveness does not sit well with shyness.
So you say there's a chance?
There are often cognitive advantages associated with shy people. But of course this article advertises treatment.
edit: With BCT, the acupuncture of psychology.
In the end it’s about choice. Shyness removes choices. I have missed a lot of things in my life I would have liked to join in but was too shy and afraid.
I say this as someone who generally has difficulty socializing, but I try regardless. It gets easier.
A shy person can have an advantage when it comes to empathy and listening. I've developed some very good relationships as a shy person.
Sounds mighty judgmental rather than empathetic if you ask me.
(of course I guess being reserved or conservative or shy or a late bloomer might not be the same thing)
And then I fell in love, at which point I stopped caring about what other people thought of me... I only cared about what the target of my affection thought.
Which was terrible for that relationship because I was extremely shy around her, but it somewhat cured my shyness around other people when I wasn't with her.
Which resulted in a positive feedback loop, wherein my shyness slowly disappeared entirely. I'm still an introvert, and lack experience in certain social situations which I always avoided when younger, but I don't consider myself shy anymore.
Not something easily emulated, but I thought I'd share my perspective anyway.
It made me even more insane how I could wave back and forth that much. It's also telling that a big chunk of it is due to how you perceive you relatively to the env.
All in all I wouldn't say it's all in our minds, even though we inherit genes and traits from our family but as you saw yourself, it's also a balancing effort with our surroundings. If you're misjudged you will face an uphill battle, if you get a friendly start it will change our you feel, live and create your persona.
I know because I've been there; even if self-esteem reinforcement looks like simple and obvious ideas, it helps if someone tells them aloud to you. Irrational behaviors are not solved by reasoning them away, you have to practice how to fix them.
One central message [of his book, "Discourses, Fragments, Handbook"] is that the basis for happiness or well-being is 'up to us' and that we all have the capacity to move towards this state, regardless of our specific social context or individual character. [...] Epictetus also stresses that this capacity forms an integral and inalienable part of what makes human beings distinctive in the natural universe, as well as the prime expression of what is 'divine' within us.
I would love to get another girlfriend... its been about 6 years now. Worst thing is the women I am interested in are even more shy than myself and I live in a part of the country where apparently woman are much more shy on average.
WHY IS THIS SO HARD?
People already have a good idea if they like you or not within 10 seconds. If their cues aren't that of someone trying to exit a conversation then you have the green light.
If you are shy with girls there is a good chance there is something in your past with a prominent female figure, likely a mother figure.
Maybe this is an ambivert + social anxiety thing?
It is so odd. I like to be alone, but I like to know that I have a social interaction planned for later in the day, etc, so that I’m not guaranteed to be alone for the WHOLE day. And then once I’m there, I’m eager to get back to being by myself.
You don't need to beat yourself up about this - if you have a low social drive and are satisfied after an hour or two, feel free to leave. Don't tough it out because you say that society says that you should be having fun.
1. I have a difficult time verbalizing my thoughts, and I'm very self-conscious about it, which keeps me relatively quiet a lot of the time. I feel like there is a chasm between my brain and my mouth.
2. I find social 'banter', especially the type you find in group conversation, contrived and difficult to participate in. A one-on-one conversation with a person is much easier for me to participate in.
Equally it does exactly that when you speak; you can't quite make it smooth and flowing, because the feedback of even your own voice is lacking in efficiency.
Song lyrics is another thing that is hard to understand.
It makes group chat and banter very, very tiring because you're just having to spend tonnes of energy just keeping "with it".
It's known as audio processing dissorder, and it's not all together uncommon.