Video is private and the text is just a synopsis of a linked article. If you actually follow to the article you will find an editorial not journalism. It uses words to imply communism and describes an awful day such as getting up at 6am, leaving for work by 6:40, eating on the go, and working long hours for overtime. All while repeatedly says that the conditions are better than elsewhere in China. Yet the title is "Why I don't want an iPhone for Christmas" and not "Why I won't buy 'Made in China' products."
The conditions on an electronics assembly line tend to be amazingly better than elsewhere in China for a very simple reason: the product demands it. When you are assembling electronics, the space in which you do it needs to be temperature controlled, humidity controlled, dust-free, well-lit, with the right tools available for each task at hand and a stable source of electricity (including backup generators) making sure this continues to be the case. Also, the workers shouldn't be too tired.
Violate any of those conditions by much and the assembled product doesn't work reliably, fails its acceptance tests, causing the company to lose business to somebody more meticulous.
You might be thinking, "Okay, so there's decent lighting and air conditioning and dust control and power - big deal!"
If you are thinking that, you have obviously never been to Dongguan in August. :-)
So, checking the video; looks like some reasonable improvements. And yet, CNN are spinning the story as "OMG, teens make your iPhone". If I recall correctly, I spent all summer whilst 17, 18 and 19 working shifts to earn money for uni/college.
There is a determined effort here to paint conditions as terrible, third world and oppressive.
I'm not so sure it's accurate. As I commented on the original story (when it first did the rounds) there is a huge cultural difference between here and there, so we must judge carefully in these matters. For example; the long hours are, sure, pretty sucky. But culturally that is how a lot of Chinese people work; long and hard. Those on my course at university were usually the last to leave the department at night, for example (3 or 4am sometimes). That's not to say anyone would like to work this job and want long hours; but it's a misunderstanding to see that as immediately abusive.
Even worse; China has a huge population problem, one we can't really imagine facing. What exactly are these people supposed to do to earn money?
Yes, there is ample opportunity to abuse such a problem. And, yes, I am sure it does happen. This sort of reporting is essential in making sure it doesn't happen wherever we can stop it. But it would be nice to see a little more common sense (i.e. rationality) applied to the way it is reported.
Of course, such an approach doesn't "sell papers" :)
The real problem here is the huge socio-economic problem China is facing. Not buying Chinese goods might even be counter-productive. If grass roots action closes a Chinese factory, what is the impact, and who feels it?
This is not a simple problem solved with outrage, but with calm forceful communication with the manufacturer.
It seems to have somewhat worked in this case, going by the improvements.
> I spent all summer whilst 17, 18 and 19 working shifts to earn money for uni/college.
In a country with health regulations, human rights laws, environmental protections, universal health care (including for if you get injured on the job), freedom of expression, vacation time, and a home to return to so you didn't have to live at work.
Let's not pretend that your situations are essentially the same. They aren't.
> There is a determined effort here to paint conditions as terrible, third world and oppressive.
There's a determined effort here to minimize the plight of people working factory jobs in third-world conditions. Because we don't want to feel guilty?
> there is a huge cultural difference between here and there, so we must judge carefully in these matters.
Your cultural relativism is a non-argument. In some cultures, it is "normal" to repress women, forbid schooling to girls, and use young boys as sex slaves. American companies will even pay for it, because, you know, "cultural relativism".
"As we mentioned, this isn't DynCorp's first brush with the sex-slavery game. Back in Bosnia in 1999, US policewoman Kathryn Bolkovac was fired from DynCorp after blowing the whistle on a sex-slave ring operating on one of our bases there. DynCorp's employees were accused of raping and peddling girls as young as 12 from countries like Ukraine, Moldova and Romania."
What next?
> Not buying Chinese goods might even be counter-productive. If grass roots action closes a Chinese factory, what is the impact, and who feels it?
How do you think worker protections were won in "civilized" countries? Conditions in the U.S. and U.K. were once much worse than in this particular Chinese factory. People fought and died to get their rights enshrined into law.
Part of that process can be to let the more abusive companies fail, and support ones that have a better track record.
> But culturally that is how a lot of Chinese people work; long and hard.
The sentiment behind this is just utterly stupid. I suppose you'll follow up with a nice parable about how the railroads were built.
People don't want to HAVE to work long and hard, especially unnecessarily. When you look at wealth distribution, it's apparent that the majority of people are getting fleeced.
> Let's not pretend that your situations are essentially the same. They aren't.
No. Absolutely, and I apologise if that was ever apparent in what I said. China has a very worrying political system, certainly not one I can ever agree with. But that is not the topic of interest here... (it really isn't, as much as CNN wants it to be ;))
BUT the point I was making is there is no issue with teenagers working for a bit of cash. That is not an issue, except in China, right? So you say?
> There's a determined effort here to minimize the plight of people working factory jobs in third-world conditions. Because we don't want to feel guilty?
This is the only comment from the above that really hurts. In fact, and regulars here will know how I usually avoid this language, fuck the hell off. You seem to be trying to turn my comment into the thinking of "screw them, at least I have an iPhone".
Here's the question; what have you ever done the fuck for them (except talk)? (rant over, and I apologise)
> Our cultural relativism is a non-argument.
Nah, it's really not. I've been unbelievably lucky in my job to touch a number of brilliant and different cultures. And I like to think I am (or, better, have the privilege to be) able to appreciate just a little bit of their complexity. Yes, repression is terrible. In our eyes. And, yes, it is good to try and change the view of other cultures to understand our own view. But showing someone they are wrong is very different from telling them they are wrong.
I believe as strongly as you that, for example, repression of women is terrible. But I wouldn't walk in guns blazing with that ideal, that is the way wars begin. Instead, bring the ideal to the right people and without the zealotry, take the long view. And with luck when we quit this world we will have set in motion serious change. It takes power and dominance we can never again see (and, in fact have fought to remove) to change the entire world in one generation. Some of our forefathers fucked it up big time; and though they ended up with the right result it was not by their planning; let's learn from those misfires.
And I strongly encourage you to travel to these countries, learn their language and customs. And then come back here and sit on your high horse.
How do you think worker protections were won in "civilized" countries
I know. This, although you perhaps do not realise it, is your strongest argument. The way it was won was drastic action which encouraged change within the ruling elite (let's not delude ourselves there is one in every country). But it was won over time, regardless of the approach taken. The "problem" with the internet is that results feed back instantly. Will China ever be democratic and similar to our country; my thinking - yeh probably. But it will take time, a lot of time. Which sucks for our generation in China, and I feel for them every day. Look at Russia, you could argue (quite rightly) that is still not "fixed". What are we doing about that? In 250 years I suspect things will be radically different.
All we can do is do our best for those alive today, and hope their descendants have it better.
The sentiment behind this is just utterly stupid. I suppose you'll follow up with a nice parable about how the railroads were built. People don't want to HAVE to work long and hard, especially unnecessarily. When you look at wealth distribution, it's apparent that the majority of people are getting fleeced.
I hate to say it but this shows a terrible misunderstanding of the Chinese culture and my argument. You live, I guess, in a pretty ok envionment, and have never had to fight for anything very much (i.e. pretty much anyone in the western world plus most of the rest of the world). When you have had to fight for your very survivial as a person come back and make this argument, if you can :)
Factory work serves as an entry-level transitional job there, much like working for McDonald's here. The workers tend to be in the 16-20 age range; they do assembly line work for a few years, sending a little money home to help the family and then they move to some other company that pays more for more experience. Or get married, or who-knows-what. I'm sure I missed some of the nuance in the french narration but looking at the video I didn't see anything unusual or upsetting there. What, exactly, are we supposed to be upset about? Yeah, the hours are long, but electronic assembly-line work is a pretty cushy job by local standards. Beats heck out of working in most of those storefronts. Better lighting, better air conditioning, better pay, and you get to sit down while you work.
Do these articles focus on Apple because it is perceived as a luxury brand? What are the conditions like for workers who build HTC, Samsung or Motorola phones?
How about every other product in China? I'd love to see 'the people who assemble the portable heater you bought at WalMart' or 'these are the Chinese prison slaves who make your gloves for Target'.
I suppose these people would rather have us stop buying iPhones, have Foxconn go out of business, and have all these teens go back to their poverty-stricken villages for a life of subsistence farming? After all, capitalist factory owners are evil, while living off the land is virtuous and pure! Or something.
The West in general, and the US in particular, will soon reach an unsustainable point where simply too much stuff is made elsewhere. Naturally, just as for decades media (and hence people) looked the other way, the abusive labor conditions that made Walmart and our $400 computers possible will now become front and center of more and more news stories.
This much, to me, is pretty certain. The consequences of clashing over this with China, however, are very much a mystery.
13 comments
[ 5.6 ms ] story [ 46.9 ms ] threadViolate any of those conditions by much and the assembled product doesn't work reliably, fails its acceptance tests, causing the company to lose business to somebody more meticulous.
You might be thinking, "Okay, so there's decent lighting and air conditioning and dust control and power - big deal!"
If you are thinking that, you have obviously never been to Dongguan in August. :-)
There is a determined effort here to paint conditions as terrible, third world and oppressive.
I'm not so sure it's accurate. As I commented on the original story (when it first did the rounds) there is a huge cultural difference between here and there, so we must judge carefully in these matters. For example; the long hours are, sure, pretty sucky. But culturally that is how a lot of Chinese people work; long and hard. Those on my course at university were usually the last to leave the department at night, for example (3 or 4am sometimes). That's not to say anyone would like to work this job and want long hours; but it's a misunderstanding to see that as immediately abusive.
Even worse; China has a huge population problem, one we can't really imagine facing. What exactly are these people supposed to do to earn money?
Yes, there is ample opportunity to abuse such a problem. And, yes, I am sure it does happen. This sort of reporting is essential in making sure it doesn't happen wherever we can stop it. But it would be nice to see a little more common sense (i.e. rationality) applied to the way it is reported.
Of course, such an approach doesn't "sell papers" :)
The real problem here is the huge socio-economic problem China is facing. Not buying Chinese goods might even be counter-productive. If grass roots action closes a Chinese factory, what is the impact, and who feels it?
This is not a simple problem solved with outrage, but with calm forceful communication with the manufacturer.
It seems to have somewhat worked in this case, going by the improvements.
In a country with health regulations, human rights laws, environmental protections, universal health care (including for if you get injured on the job), freedom of expression, vacation time, and a home to return to so you didn't have to live at work.
Let's not pretend that your situations are essentially the same. They aren't.
> There is a determined effort here to paint conditions as terrible, third world and oppressive.
There's a determined effort here to minimize the plight of people working factory jobs in third-world conditions. Because we don't want to feel guilty?
> there is a huge cultural difference between here and there, so we must judge carefully in these matters.
Your cultural relativism is a non-argument. In some cultures, it is "normal" to repress women, forbid schooling to girls, and use young boys as sex slaves. American companies will even pay for it, because, you know, "cultural relativism".
http://articles.cnn.com/2009-10-26/world/ctw.afghanistan.sex...
http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/2010/12/wikileaks_te...
"As we mentioned, this isn't DynCorp's first brush with the sex-slavery game. Back in Bosnia in 1999, US policewoman Kathryn Bolkovac was fired from DynCorp after blowing the whistle on a sex-slave ring operating on one of our bases there. DynCorp's employees were accused of raping and peddling girls as young as 12 from countries like Ukraine, Moldova and Romania."
What next?
> Not buying Chinese goods might even be counter-productive. If grass roots action closes a Chinese factory, what is the impact, and who feels it?
How do you think worker protections were won in "civilized" countries? Conditions in the U.S. and U.K. were once much worse than in this particular Chinese factory. People fought and died to get their rights enshrined into law.
Part of that process can be to let the more abusive companies fail, and support ones that have a better track record.
> But culturally that is how a lot of Chinese people work; long and hard.
The sentiment behind this is just utterly stupid. I suppose you'll follow up with a nice parable about how the railroads were built.
People don't want to HAVE to work long and hard, especially unnecessarily. When you look at wealth distribution, it's apparent that the majority of people are getting fleeced.
http://www.good.is/post/americans-are-horribly-misinformed-a...
No. Absolutely, and I apologise if that was ever apparent in what I said. China has a very worrying political system, certainly not one I can ever agree with. But that is not the topic of interest here... (it really isn't, as much as CNN wants it to be ;))
BUT the point I was making is there is no issue with teenagers working for a bit of cash. That is not an issue, except in China, right? So you say?
> There's a determined effort here to minimize the plight of people working factory jobs in third-world conditions. Because we don't want to feel guilty?
This is the only comment from the above that really hurts. In fact, and regulars here will know how I usually avoid this language, fuck the hell off. You seem to be trying to turn my comment into the thinking of "screw them, at least I have an iPhone".
Here's the question; what have you ever done the fuck for them (except talk)? (rant over, and I apologise)
> Our cultural relativism is a non-argument.
Nah, it's really not. I've been unbelievably lucky in my job to touch a number of brilliant and different cultures. And I like to think I am (or, better, have the privilege to be) able to appreciate just a little bit of their complexity. Yes, repression is terrible. In our eyes. And, yes, it is good to try and change the view of other cultures to understand our own view. But showing someone they are wrong is very different from telling them they are wrong.
I believe as strongly as you that, for example, repression of women is terrible. But I wouldn't walk in guns blazing with that ideal, that is the way wars begin. Instead, bring the ideal to the right people and without the zealotry, take the long view. And with luck when we quit this world we will have set in motion serious change. It takes power and dominance we can never again see (and, in fact have fought to remove) to change the entire world in one generation. Some of our forefathers fucked it up big time; and though they ended up with the right result it was not by their planning; let's learn from those misfires.
And I strongly encourage you to travel to these countries, learn their language and customs. And then come back here and sit on your high horse.
How do you think worker protections were won in "civilized" countries
I know. This, although you perhaps do not realise it, is your strongest argument. The way it was won was drastic action which encouraged change within the ruling elite (let's not delude ourselves there is one in every country). But it was won over time, regardless of the approach taken. The "problem" with the internet is that results feed back instantly. Will China ever be democratic and similar to our country; my thinking - yeh probably. But it will take time, a lot of time. Which sucks for our generation in China, and I feel for them every day. Look at Russia, you could argue (quite rightly) that is still not "fixed". What are we doing about that? In 250 years I suspect things will be radically different.
All we can do is do our best for those alive today, and hope their descendants have it better.
The sentiment behind this is just utterly stupid. I suppose you'll follow up with a nice parable about how the railroads were built. People don't want to HAVE to work long and hard, especially unnecessarily. When you look at wealth distribution, it's apparent that the majority of people are getting fleeced.
I hate to say it but this shows a terrible misunderstanding of the Chinese culture and my argument. You live, I guess, in a pretty ok envionment, and have never had to fight for anything very much (i.e. pretty much anyone in the western world plus most of the rest of the world). When you have had to fight for your very survivial as a person come back and make this argument, if you can :)
How about every other product in China? I'd love to see 'the people who assemble the portable heater you bought at WalMart' or 'these are the Chinese prison slaves who make your gloves for Target'.
This much, to me, is pretty certain. The consequences of clashing over this with China, however, are very much a mystery.