I am selling my gaming desktop and considering buying something for work/study purposes only, preferably (I am 80% sure about it) a laptop.
Having a 2017 MBP at work, I am really disappointed in it's keyboard. To the point that I don't want to buy a Macbook for personal use.
Having used Macbook laptops for years, I was sure I will be able to quickly find some good alternatives. But after spending some time on Google and Youtube, I am really confused at this point. Let me explain why.
All I need is a laptop with around-the-house mobility to browse Web, to learn and experiment with different programming languages, and to work on some side projects (web/backend) of mine. No heavy video/photo editing, no more gaming.
I need it to be able to connect to an external screen without any weird dongles, to have a really good, comfortable keyboard and touchpad and not to cost a fortune.
It should run Linux smoothly, but maybe I could also use WLS on Windows as I don't have any strong preferences for UI because in the end it's only me, browser, terminal and an editor.
Now, it has confused me a lot that these simple requirements are very hard to satisfy, apparently!
What I've found so far:
1. Thinkpads X/T series
Seem to be very solid machines, nice keyboard and specs. But in the new generation, Lenovo went the "anorexia" path which not only increases the price but also makes them less upgradable with the solidified RAM slot. Also, the line of T machines with the "s" suffix doesn't make sense to me as they are so similar to the X series. I don't get the point.
The price tag easily climbs up to almost 2k euro with i5, 16Gb RAM, 512Gb SSD and WQHD (2560 x 1440) display .
2. Surface Book 2
Looks super good, but as I've mentioned above I am still not sure about developing on Windows with the WSL and considering that realistically prices start from 2k for this laptop - it simply is too much for a machine that I am going to use at home for a few hours a day.
3. Dell XPS
Seem to be solid machines, mostly.
But same issues as with Thinkpads - everything is optimized for the size and weight, which makes it less upgradable and more expensive.
And let me tell you that I owned Macbook Air for 5 years - I know that a low thickness is a very nice quality, but it's nowhere in the list of my priorities. I can easily trade it off for better specs.
Also, I keep reading about their coil whine problem.
Price gets easily close to 1,7k euro for the 4k version, which is much better than others on this list, but how good is Linux handling 4k if I decided to go with it?..
4. System76
Not expensive, a bit boring looking (not necessarily a problem but counts), and I am reading a lot about a not so good keyboard which collects dirt and is hard to clean. Don't know how true it is, though.
Battery life is also rumored to not to be good, even though it's not that important to me.
Not convinced by what I've learn about them so far.
5. Purism
I really like the idea but at 1.5k euro with specs matching those of others mentioned above, I am actually not sure it's a good deal, considering the low battery life and an average display quality.
Is it?
It's probably not a full list but as you noticed, no laptop here costs less than 1,5k for very unimpressive specs as for today's standards.
Maybe I am just spoiled but a Macbook Pro with such specs costs ~2k. And if the keyboard hasn't ruined it - it's a very high quality machine made of solid aluminum with 4k display and superb trackpad. So how can these alternatives cost almost the same with their 1080p screens?..
But it's ok, I would go with the price if it was a work laptop that I need to use for 8+ hours a day.
But as for a secondary machine, sitting at home for most of the time, I really don't want to spend this much!
If you had needs and struggles similar to mine, what have you gone with? And how happy are you with your choice?
I stopped buying new and started buying second hand about a year ago. Honestly, it's worked out just fine. I got a 6th gen i7 Lenovo T460S with 20Gb RAM, 512Gb M.2 and 1920 x 1080 display, all for about USD 700, about a year ago on eBay. It's still going strong today, and pretty much using it for the same purposes as you listed. It runs most modern linux distros flawlessly. WSL wasn't a great experience for me, but maybe things have improved since last year. Considering the specs of cutting edge vs., 1 or 2 generations ago, it's rarely ever more than 30% bigger/better/faster/brighter/etc. It just doesn't make sense to me to pay 100% to 200% more for a 30% improvement. The other huge plus (for me) is that I really don't care what happens to the laptop. I treat it with as much care as I treat my 2018 15"MBP, but at $700 (or $2 a day spread out over the last year), I really don't stress about it. Keyboard is THE BEST. Touchpad, on the other hand ... well, PC trackpads suck so very much, especially if you're used to Apple touchpads, which are just such a pleasure to use.
Do consider buying second hand, especially if it's a secondary machine.
I have a Surface Book (original). The first keyboard started failing for no discernible reason. The replacement keyboard, which also has a dedicated graphics card in it, disconnects from the computer randomly causing weird errors and OS crashes, so I have disabled the dedicated graphics card completely. If you scratch the outside you void your warranty, if you buy an expensive warranty it is expensive and still does not last very long.
2 years ago I thought it was an acceptable risk to buy a laptop with a cool gimmick hardware part... I wouldn't do it again.
Honestly, a chromebook meets all your specs. They aren't really upgradeable beyond switching out the SSD for something bigger, but it's a perfectly cromulent choice for web/backend work. I used to do Rails 5 development on one, and it'll run a webpack server just fine.
Most Chromebooks can be booted with the distro of your choice, or you can use GalliumOS (optimized for chromebooks).
I've been really close to picking up an Intel-based Asus Chromebook Flip like the C434 (still on discount on Amazon today) or older C302 (under $300 used). If I didn't have a daily driver Macbook and a stack of other Chromebooks I'd be sold.
Just bought a used 2015 MacBook Pro 15”. Got a new battery for free due to the recall. Much better than anything else I could buy today, at 1/3 the cost.
I bought one last summer and upgraded the SSD (with a small adapter you can drop in most NVME M.2 SSDs). HDMI out, dual mini DP out, 2x USB 3, SD card slot (which I keep filled with a 400GB microSD in a little adapter for more storage). Retina. Old scissor switch keyboard. Should get another 2 or more macOS updates before being sunset.
If it should be a new device, I would buy a Lenovo ThinkPad T490s, which is the most valuable Notebook i came across in the last 5 Years...
Thinkpad X1 Carbon is really high end, you won't need to spend this amount of money.
If you would like to save some money, you could either buy a used T4x0s (the lower the x, the lower the price but the older the device).
More alternatives (not as good as the T4x0s Series):
Dell Latitude 7x90
HP EliteBook 840 Gx
HP ProBook 440 Gx
And check for educational discounts, if you are student, you'll probable save a lot of money.
Dell Precision 5xxx or 7xxx series. They're intended as desktop-replacement workstations, and as such are fucking beasts -- upgradeable to 64 GiB of RAM, full-sized keyboards with TrackPoint analogues, etc.
I suggest you consider buying their laptop, because they are the only company that has the goal to empower users with privacy and repairability (happy user).
we use razer blade at work with ubuntu 18, it is mostly ok. the battery life is a bit poor, and the trackpad is not so great, but it is the software to blame. it's upgradable, I have changed my ram from 16gb to 32gb.
> it simply is too much for a machine that I am going to use at home for a few hours a day.
A used Thinkpad. Maybe even one for as low as two or three hundred Euros. Upgrade RAM, install an SSD (If not already present), and you've got a "good enough" machine.
What about the battery? Does Lenovo still sell OEM batteries or will you have to try your luck with Ebay, where most of those being sold by unofficial sellers are straight up fakes?
Second this, I have a fully specced out T470P (2560x1440@14", 32GB DDR4, i7-7700HQ (that still trades equal blows with current 9th gen though at a higher TDP)).
I expect to use it for at least 2-3 more years, it looks literally like I took it out the box and it's two years old (I've dropped it a couple of times as well) just a phenomenal little machine.
+1 for Thinkpad. I have an older yoga from Best buy back when they still came with discrete graphics. Poor thing has taken a beating from me but still works great. And thinkpads in general have great support for Linux. Even for the pen input, which I use more than I thought I would. Usually for signing documents or quickly mapping out an idea.
Also, they're so ubiquitous, I was able to go to several local tech recycling places and pick up spare chargers for super cheap. I dont stress about keeping track of the charger now. Just leave one in my bag, one by my desk, one in bed, one by the couch. It's a small thing but it's changed my workflow a lot. Let's me treat the laptop more as a free mobile device and less like a clunky combo laptop with rats nest to awkwardly carry around.
Also big fan of the track point and the secondary buttons at the top of the track pad. It's a meme for a lot of ppl but they definitely have their place. When in the flow of typing, it helps a lot to not have to move your hands back and forth off the keyboard. And most importantly, having a middle click button right below the space bar makes it dead simple and quickly to open up a set of links in a new tabs. That's a functionality that would be hard for me to give up by going to another platform.
As for gripes, the one thing that makes me jealous of laptops like the MacBook, surface book, and matebook x, is the screen aspect ratio. For being "productivity machines" I wish Lenovo would put a 3:2 screen that gave more vertical space to see more code or spreadsheet cells. It's absurd to me that they still have consumption oriented 16:9. It's especially painful when using the tablet mode in portrait. The only thing I can do is full screen an application if it really starts to bother me.
I just got a Thinkpad P52S after using a 2012 Macbook for 7.5 years.
Installed Pop_OS! on it. Despite the quirky name, it's the stablest, least needed configuration Ubuntu flavor, I've ever used and very similar to macOS and very shortcut friendly.
A vote for the Thinkpad P51. For those that get headaches from laptops and other displays, I found this one that you can spec up and does not use pulse width modulation.
I would recommend to consider tuxedo laptops, especially the 14" which is robust enough, reasonably priced and fanless.
And all their machines come preinstalled with Linux.
- i wanted to financially support a company aligned with values i share (privacy, open everything)
- because everything is open including hardware, there's no hardware/driver issues with linux; things work nicely out of the box
- it has a TPM which may or may not be fun to play around with in the future
- because of its open nature it's easy to add memory and NVE disk
- increased clock speeds don't really affect me - the most computationally intensive things i do are software builds and parallel test suites, which use all cores; servers do the actual experiments/compute
I have the 15v3 and can confirm it's a great laptop too. Really looking forward to their Librem 5 phone too. The companies really going in a good direction.
Reading your post below I believe a Dell Latitude would fit what you want. Something like the E7440 is cheap, reliable, repairable, expandable, etc. They cost about £200 if you're not fussy.
That doesn't fit your display requirements though, so you'll probably need to look around at newer models. Dell, as far as I can tell, make it hard to search their laptops by display resolution.
Dell Latitude 7440s are terrific machines which run Linux beautifully. They're better Linux machines than the XPS, which is severely over-rated in my opinion. I've had an XPS laptop as my main machine since 2014 and I recently replaced it with a generic small-form factor PC (I mean tiny) from AliExpress. Delighted to be shot of the XPS.
An older Thinkpad till some decent Ryzen based 4K laptops come out next year.
I just got me a T440P. Put in 16G, SSD (can put 2 more SSDs for a total of 3), its got a socketed i7 and a removable 9 cell battery for easier upgrades. I upgraded the default display (garbage) to a 1080p display (really simple ..done with a screwdriver) and this thing is a beast with Manjaro Linux and KDE or i3.
I also have an x230 with OpenBSD.
My old 2015 retina MBP is going to my dad who has a shitty old windows 10 spyware laptop.
ASUS Zenbook series - got one (UX32LN) and worked flawlessly for many years (on linux) - it still works, but now my wife has it (with Windows installed)
I switched to Surface Book 2 - it's awesome machine and development with WSL works amazingly good (no issues found yet), but I wouldn't recommend this machine to anyone who wants to travel with it due to its lids mechanism (I would be scared of breaking it while keeping it in the backpack )
43 comments
[ 2.0 ms ] story [ 109 ms ] threadHaving a 2017 MBP at work, I am really disappointed in it's keyboard. To the point that I don't want to buy a Macbook for personal use.
Having used Macbook laptops for years, I was sure I will be able to quickly find some good alternatives. But after spending some time on Google and Youtube, I am really confused at this point. Let me explain why.
All I need is a laptop with around-the-house mobility to browse Web, to learn and experiment with different programming languages, and to work on some side projects (web/backend) of mine. No heavy video/photo editing, no more gaming.
I need it to be able to connect to an external screen without any weird dongles, to have a really good, comfortable keyboard and touchpad and not to cost a fortune.
It should run Linux smoothly, but maybe I could also use WLS on Windows as I don't have any strong preferences for UI because in the end it's only me, browser, terminal and an editor.
Now, it has confused me a lot that these simple requirements are very hard to satisfy, apparently!
What I've found so far:
1. Thinkpads X/T series Seem to be very solid machines, nice keyboard and specs. But in the new generation, Lenovo went the "anorexia" path which not only increases the price but also makes them less upgradable with the solidified RAM slot. Also, the line of T machines with the "s" suffix doesn't make sense to me as they are so similar to the X series. I don't get the point.
The price tag easily climbs up to almost 2k euro with i5, 16Gb RAM, 512Gb SSD and WQHD (2560 x 1440) display .
2. Surface Book 2 Looks super good, but as I've mentioned above I am still not sure about developing on Windows with the WSL and considering that realistically prices start from 2k for this laptop - it simply is too much for a machine that I am going to use at home for a few hours a day.
3. Dell XPS Seem to be solid machines, mostly. But same issues as with Thinkpads - everything is optimized for the size and weight, which makes it less upgradable and more expensive. And let me tell you that I owned Macbook Air for 5 years - I know that a low thickness is a very nice quality, but it's nowhere in the list of my priorities. I can easily trade it off for better specs.
Also, I keep reading about their coil whine problem.
Price gets easily close to 1,7k euro for the 4k version, which is much better than others on this list, but how good is Linux handling 4k if I decided to go with it?..
4. System76 Not expensive, a bit boring looking (not necessarily a problem but counts), and I am reading a lot about a not so good keyboard which collects dirt and is hard to clean. Don't know how true it is, though.
Battery life is also rumored to not to be good, even though it's not that important to me.
Not convinced by what I've learn about them so far.
5. Purism I really like the idea but at 1.5k euro with specs matching those of others mentioned above, I am actually not sure it's a good deal, considering the low battery life and an average display quality.
Is it?
It's probably not a full list but as you noticed, no laptop here costs less than 1,5k for very unimpressive specs as for today's standards. Maybe I am just spoiled but a Macbook Pro with such specs costs ~2k. And if the keyboard hasn't ruined it - it's a very high quality machine made of solid aluminum with 4k display and superb trackpad. So how can these alternatives cost almost the same with their 1080p screens?..
But it's ok, I would go with the price if it was a work laptop that I need to use for 8+ hours a day.
But as for a secondary machine, sitting at home for most of the time, I really don't want to spend this much!
If you had needs and struggles similar to mine, what have you gone with? And how happy are you with your choice?
Do consider buying second hand, especially if it's a secondary machine.
Best of luck!
2 years ago I thought it was an acceptable risk to buy a laptop with a cool gimmick hardware part... I wouldn't do it again.
Most Chromebooks can be booted with the distro of your choice, or you can use GalliumOS (optimized for chromebooks).
Thinkpad X1 Carbon is really high end, you won't need to spend this amount of money.
If you would like to save some money, you could either buy a used T4x0s (the lower the x, the lower the price but the older the device). More alternatives (not as good as the T4x0s Series):
Dell Latitude 7x90
HP EliteBook 840 Gx
HP ProBook 440 Gx
And check for educational discounts, if you are student, you'll probable save a lot of money.
Purism Librem 15v4 has a 4k screen.
https://www.razer.com/gaming-laptops/
Thinkpad T4X0 is the way to go for 13" (T440-T480; T490 is too Appleized also)
A used Thinkpad. Maybe even one for as low as two or three hundred Euros. Upgrade RAM, install an SSD (If not already present), and you've got a "good enough" machine.
Try Googling next time.
T490 is no good: soldered-in things and no dual batteries.
T440 has a bad touchpad, but it can be replaced with the one from T450.
Get the s variant, e.g. T450s if you need it a bit thinner and lighter.
Get the FHD (or higher res) IPS variant, the low res TN panels are very bad.
Join /r/thinkpad.
Though if OP could afford a Macbook Pro before, he might want the W- or P-series instead.
I expect to use it for at least 2-3 more years, it looks literally like I took it out the box and it's two years old (I've dropped it a couple of times as well) just a phenomenal little machine.
Also big fan of the track point and the secondary buttons at the top of the track pad. It's a meme for a lot of ppl but they definitely have their place. When in the flow of typing, it helps a lot to not have to move your hands back and forth off the keyboard. And most importantly, having a middle click button right below the space bar makes it dead simple and quickly to open up a set of links in a new tabs. That's a functionality that would be hard for me to give up by going to another platform.
As for gripes, the one thing that makes me jealous of laptops like the MacBook, surface book, and matebook x, is the screen aspect ratio. For being "productivity machines" I wish Lenovo would put a 3:2 screen that gave more vertical space to see more code or spreadsheet cells. It's absurd to me that they still have consumption oriented 16:9. It's especially painful when using the tablet mode in portrait. The only thing I can do is full screen an application if it really starts to bother me.
Installed Pop_OS! on it. Despite the quirky name, it's the stablest, least needed configuration Ubuntu flavor, I've ever used and very similar to macOS and very shortcut friendly.
https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/en/Linux-Hardware/Linux-Note...
The biggest downside is I had to buy a new backpack from Chrome since it didn't fit in anything I already owned!
it's expensive for the stuff inside, but:
- i wanted to financially support a company aligned with values i share (privacy, open everything)
- because everything is open including hardware, there's no hardware/driver issues with linux; things work nicely out of the box
- it has a TPM which may or may not be fun to play around with in the future
- because of its open nature it's easy to add memory and NVE disk
- increased clock speeds don't really affect me - the most computationally intensive things i do are software builds and parallel test suites, which use all cores; servers do the actual experiments/compute
That doesn't fit your display requirements though, so you'll probably need to look around at newer models. Dell, as far as I can tell, make it hard to search their laptops by display resolution.
I just got me a T440P. Put in 16G, SSD (can put 2 more SSDs for a total of 3), its got a socketed i7 and a removable 9 cell battery for easier upgrades. I upgraded the default display (garbage) to a 1080p display (really simple ..done with a screwdriver) and this thing is a beast with Manjaro Linux and KDE or i3.
I also have an x230 with OpenBSD.
My old 2015 retina MBP is going to my dad who has a shitty old windows 10 spyware laptop.
I switched to Surface Book 2 - it's awesome machine and development with WSL works amazingly good (no issues found yet), but I wouldn't recommend this machine to anyone who wants to travel with it due to its lids mechanism (I would be scared of breaking it while keeping it in the backpack )