Just like French police has been doing every week for nearly nine months. Were is Steve? Steve has almost certainly been killed in Nantes by the police in the wee hours of June 22d, but no actual investigation is occurring. A 23 yo has been missing for a month after a police charge along the river... And the responsible officer just got a medal!!!
In France, since November 500 persons have been wounded, 4500 have been jailed for no offense, several have lost an hand, tens have lost an eye, and two have been killed by police repression, in an almost complete media silence. But somehow China is supposed to be so much worse.
Every post I’ve ever seen on here where China gets criticized immediately jumps into whataboutism. Why? This is no less newsworthy just because the French government is also committing atrocities. Nothing says you can’t submit articles about that.
Some people like to think of/portray China as being uniquely nefarious on matters like this. It's reasonable to point out that occurrences that could be considered comparable are happening in Western countries too.
FWIW: I'm not expressing any opinion on whether events in China and France or elsewhere are comparable or not, or whether one is substantially worse. But I do appreciate having these things pointed out so I can consider and research them myself.
Sure, but maybe not in a way that's celarly done to lose focus of the actual issue? If I'm on trial for murder the prosecutor would object to mentioning all the people who've been illegally killed by the state's army. Same thing here, China is accused of human rights violations, what other countries have done doesn't change whether or not that's true.
The focal issue of this article is police brutality against protestors, and that's what the root commenter in this subthread was talking about with respect to France.
Meanwhile, the Palestinians have been at it for 18 months along the Gaza border and have suffered over 300 casualties. There is no fairness in the news reporting and what gets upvoted on Hacker News. Deal with it.
Chaos and bloodshed in Hong Kong district as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists, residents
The group used bamboo sticks and other weapons to attack people in the area and in the West Rail Line station, injuring Democratic Party lawmaker Lam Cheuk-ting, who was seen bleeding from his mouth in a social media live stream.
Didn't a similar group also show up at the 2014 Umbrella protests and beat up the protestors then too?
I wonder if it’s like Maduro’s socialist ‘colectivo’ gangs [1] in Venezuela that rove around on motorcycles and assault and even murder anti-government protestors without punishment from the state. But obviously less serious and violent.
Beating armed police and destroying empty buildings is definitely morally superior to beating unarmed metro passengers, and that's not even getting into the motivating causes (freedom from authoritarians vs. enforcement on behalf of authoritarians).
How funny your point it is! Those residential in white just protect their are from those violent protesters, since only violent can prevent violent. That what I believe, at least they didn't use brick, steel stick, what those people in Black used.
And the Yuen Long Police Department building closed its front door gate 15 minutes before the assailants appeared, and sent in the cops 30 minutes after the assailants left the station. Also one of the pro-China legislators was videoed shaking hands with 1 of the assailants' leaders thanking them for 'saving Hong Kong.'
Couple with the riot cops now hide their faces behind masks, and assailants hiding their faces as well. Watchmen, anyone?
For another reporting of the triad attack, see BBC [1] and the Times [2].
It was leaked a few days ago that the government was planning to use triads to do the dirty work (See point 4 in [3] and [4] in Chinese). Using triads happened during the 2014 umbrella protest, but this time the attack on arbitrary citizens (not necessarily the protesters) is on a completely different scale: a terrorist attack.
And there are videos showing that the police “co-operated” with the triads (by turning a blind eye: arriving at the scene late [5] [6], chatting with the triad attackers [7], closing the police stations and not responding to cases during the events).
Funny, why you don't show the videos how those violent protesters beaten polices, cut some police's finger, destroy the government buildings, dirty Chinese national emblem?
And the Yuen Long Police Department building closed its front door gate 15 minutes before the assailants appeared, and sent in the cops 30 minutes after the assailants left the station. Also one of the pro-China legislators was videoed shaking hands with 1 of the assailants' leaders thanking them for 'saving Hong Kong.'
Couple with the riot cops now hide their faces behind masks, and assailants hiding their faces as well. Watchmen, anyone?
Seeing that pregnant woman who was beaten being attended to by paramedics left me feeling physically ill. I just do not understand how people can be so disgusting.
Is there wide-spread support of the protesters among the HongKong general public? Have their been polls conducted? I support Democracy and the HongKong protesters, but I wonder whether the police actions reflect the broader public's consensus or not....[edit]I say this because it is hard for me to imagine the public NOT supporting the protestors, which would make the police actions against the protestors that much more a sign of impending oppression and influence of the Chinese government...
Of the 7.4 million people who live in Hong Kong, between 338,000 (police count) and 2 million (organizer count) people took to the streets on June 16th alone. Here's a timelapse of one evening of protests (I couldn't find a palatable source so I rehosted it myself):
This isn't necessarily a one-dimensional "protesters vs. police" conflict. People might well support the protest while simultaneously approving of the police reaction to violent protesters, or they might oppose violence by both protesters and police, and there's no reason why one couldn't hold all four opinions at once.
That said I would welcome some statistics to clarify what the prevailing opinion is. (The turnout figures are impressive, but they can't say anything about what the rest of Hong Kong thinks.)
Imagine fifty to one hundred million people protesting in the streets in the U.S; that's the rough range of credible ratios of protesters to overall population in Hong Kong.
I worry about Hong Kong protestors as it isn't like mainland China isn't in this for the long game. Mainland China will increasing integrate Hong Kong, it is an unstoppable force. I think the most prominent protestors should have plans to get out of the country.
I think part of their goal is to make the intergration as expensive as possible. They don't need to beat the Mainland in a classical sense - just make it not worth it even when trying to preserve face.
The ideal goal is either turning Mainland to be more like their values or being cut loose into a "offically a part of China that we don't deliver mail to" like Taiwan. The Mainland could always go Tiananmen Square part 2 but it would do more damage to their relations, create martyrs, and lead to sanctions and boycotts value.
There does not seem to be a unified long-term goal among the protesters.
Support for independence is strong primarily among young people, so embracing the cause of independence would probably split the protest movement along generational lines. However, everybody knows that Hong Kong's special deal with mainland will expire after 2046 and it doesn't seem like anyone outside the independence movement really has a strategy to preserve democracy after that.
> There does not seem to be a unified long-term goal among the protesters.
Universal sufferage has been trending as another talking point too among protesters. This would be very long term because if Hong Kong would allot all seats in the LegCo based on popular vote Beijing would almost certainly lose its ability to legislate this easily and hand pick the government.
Because China, contrary to popular opinion, cares about its image. Dismantling democracy in one sweep at 2046 would look pretty bad, replacing the democratically elected government at 2046 would also look bad.
For many of the protestors, that probably isn't an option. After all, if you had the option to flee, risking life and limb to protest against the mainland Chinese government is a much less safe alternative.
I'm having a hard time figuring out which side is the CIA's people. Maybe both?
I'm half joking, but also definitely wanted to plant that idea for the American readers. Wherever there's chaos and instability, the CIA is often there. (Even in nations with which the US isn't openly in a trade war.)
The CIA is not a monolithic entity. Different people have different goals & factions develop.
Another question to ask is how did China receive technology transfers from US corporations? This is against the sovereign interests of the US yet it occurred with the cooperation of Americans in various agencies & corporations.
> Why would the CIA actively help the chinese government?
The CIA was running large segments of both sides of the uprising that resulted in the Mossadegh government being swept out of favor and replaced by autocratic rule by the Shah of Iran.
The involvement of the CIA on one side of a conflict sometimes isn't to make that side win, it is to assure that that sides behavior fits an intended pattern which serves the desired outcome.
In general, the CIA or any similar agency might "help" any government to either commit, or appear to commit, an act which is nominally "against" a popular movement, but which (through heavy-handedness, brutality or some other characteristic), ultimately provokes outrage, turns worldwide opinion against that government, and weakens its position or ability to get things done, or even, topples it. I'm suspicious this was done to Mubarak in Egypt and Yanukovych in Ukraine.
We know from first-hand experience here in France that although it is not visually spectacular, tear gas and rubber bullets are highly dangerous and potentially lethal weapons.
There's the more famous cases like that yellow vests self-proclaimed (and wrongly so) spokesperson who lost an eye to a rubber bullet. There's the old Zineb Redouane who was at home in Marseille when she was hit in the head by a tar gas can (thrown from a launcher, not by hand) and died accordingly.
But then, there's also the THOUSANDS of daily anonymous victims of state repression. Because those weapons, along with "sting-ball grenades", get deployed in day-to-day police operations (controlling popular neighborhoods, football matches, free parties).
In such hard times, all my thoughts go to the comrades in Hong Kong and their close ones who are going to face very hard times. Solidarity is stronger than any prison!
We know from first-hand experience here in France that although it is not visually spectacular, tear gas and rubber bullets are highly dangerous and potentially lethal weapons.
We know that from the United States too when Oakland police shot rubber bullets at protestors' heads. Per the manufacturer you're supposed to bounce them off the ground at someone, not shoot them directly at someone's head.
Did you and the OP actually watch some of the videos posted in this thread? There are literally gangsters sponsored by the government using weapons to attack women and children in broad daylight, while the police is nowhere to be seen, and tells people to not be outside.
There is NO comparison to anything in a civilized western society
Did you read any political news between the 19th century and today in so-called "civilized western societies"?
French and American history are filled with government-sponsored and industry-sponsored militias murdering workers on strike or angry protesters.
In the USA, take a look at the "goon squads" targeted at indigenous communities and their modern equivalent deployed at Standing Rock. Or the FBI's COINTELPRO and government-sanctioned murder of many militants from the Black Panther and other revolutionary organizations. Or the attack on the MOVE movement when police killed 11 people (including 5 children) and destroyed dozens of house from the neighborhood.
In mainland France, such actions are usually carried out by the state apparatus, not private militias because owning and carrying guns is mostly illegal (except for hunting, with a license). Still, when the establishment in France was threatened during May 68 protests, De Gaulle called his private counter-revolutionary militia (Services d'Action Civique) to the rescue ; these were founded by Jacques Foccart (the psychopath responsible for "african matters" for De Gaulle) in the context of the war against Algerian liberation (back in 1960).
Now, it's the time for me to acknowledge that some people face levels of generalized repression way worse than we do in France/USA/Hong Kong. I'm thinking of people tortured by security services (such as FSB) all around the world for "not thinking right" or just out of suspicion.
In the western world, you can speak your mind very openly as long as it does not threaten the exploitative system we live in, while in some countries like Morocco simply insulting the king will get you in prison.
Still, this very wild violence is the foundation of every capitalist society and western societies are not exempt from it, contrary to what you seemed to imply. It's just not the general rule in our day-to-day lives (at least in richer neighborhoods).
There is NO comparison to anything in a civilized western society
I'm not well versed in French police history, but there are plenty of examples of government brutality in the United States. This isn't whataboutism as, quite frankly, none of the violence justifies any of the other violence and what China is doing is an atrocious violation of basic human rights.
Off the top of my head:
Kent State — killing university students
MOVE bombing - bombing a residential neighborhood in Philly
Iran Contra Affair - CIA allegedly funded drug traffickers allegedly playing a large role in unleashing crack cocaine into American inner cities (wanna talk about violence against youth…)
1968 Democratic National Convention
Dakota Access Pipeline protests - protestors were tear gassed and sprayed with water in freezing temperatures
And of course Trump's concentration camps.
If your argument hinges on the government looking the other way while a private party perpetrates violence I'd start looking at the Homestead Strike, the Ford Massacre, any small town in the south where the KKK + police department venn diagram was basically just a single circle, and of course Blackwater's (of Betsy Devoss fame) Nisour Square Massacre.
None of those are really the same- the closest thing I'm aware of in US history is the Pinkertons- except they were presumably professionals- in HK we're seeing illegal gangs being hired to terrorize the populace
None of those are really the same- the closest thing I'm aware of in US history is the Pinkertons- except they were presumably professionals- in HK we're seeing illegal gangs being hired to terrorize the populace
What is happening in Hong Kong is, presumably, the government using outside groups as a proxy for violence. I've outlined a number of instances of the American government using disproportionate violence and using outside groups to perpetrate disproportionate violence. The one thing I forgot were the allegations that the FBI used Gregory Scarpa (a mob hitman) to extract information might seem closer for you.
If you look to the south, there are plenty of instances of the American government funding South American rebel groups (while not the mob, they were not professionals, and did perpetrate plenty of heinous crimes). I mentioned the Contras in the context of the CIA funding drug trafficking into the US (if you don't believe that resulted in an explosion of violence go check out the homicide stats for LA County in the 1990s), but the Contras were extraordinarily violent in their home of Nicaragua.
Of course nothing is ever exactly the same. I don't think that making a difference between professional and hobbyist thug is one worth making here. Beyond that I don't think that legal vs illegal is a worth making either. Do you think the PRC is going to sanction the triads (therefor declaring their behavior illegal)? I don't.
> Per the manufacturer you're supposed to bounce them off the ground at someone, not shoot them directly at someone's head.
I think those matters are separate. The ricochet technique is for when you have a rubber bullet or buck shell that is loaded too hot for the engagement distance. When engaging belligerents at short range, some very hot rubber buck (and I'm not sure about single-projectile bullets, but I'd believe it) should be deliberately ricocheted to reduce energy.
However, as far as I'm aware, a lot of riot control shot shells today have considerably lower muzzle velocity and/or projectile mass because they are designed for direct fire in these shorter distance engagements; so it's not always misuse when a less-lethal shot shell or bullet is used without deliberate ricochet, and firing directly should reduce the chance of stray/negligent/accidental hits to soft targets.
Though generally speaking, these measures in CCP-run Hong Kong are extremely brutal, the proper or improper use of rubber bullets is the least of the worries, as they aren't riots to begin with. The government is starting the fight.
What's scarier is the organized attacks by white shirt Triads on normal people. It looks like it was coordinated with the police who went into the police station and shut the doors shortly before the attack. See the video and comments on this thread:
The CCP wants to destroy the civilized way of life enjoyed in Hong Kong (and Taiwan), because it demonstrates that brutality is not the only way to lead Chinese people.
Many naiive young people from PRC I've talked to here in Canada sincerely believe that brutality is the only language Chinese people respond to, it's painful how broken the mainland people are.
I originally compared Hong Kong to my understanding of the cities in the middle ages. London and it's citizens were granted special privileges.
I thought this was a sort of recapitulation of that. That still might be the case but I'm also starting to think this might be bad for the mainland Chinese government. They are fighting ideas about autonomy. The people in Hong Kong don't just want to sit back and make money - they want a say in how the world is run. They want power. That's the idea that's being fought against.
If it's China vs. Hong Kong then my money is on China. But what if that alienation between governed and government spreads from Hong Kong to other places in China? It seems unlikely but can the Chinese government respond to that?
There's that classic Churchill quote about Democracy (The worst but for all the others) and - if what I've described is accurate - this is one of the places Democracy shines because it's agile enough to concede power as a way of avoiding chaos. More autocratic systems tend to be a lot firmer - they concede nothing by their nature but the prices of firmness is brittleness. If they are finally forced to concede it comes in the form of shattering.
54 comments
[ 2.9 ms ] story [ 99.6 ms ] threadIn France, since November 500 persons have been wounded, 4500 have been jailed for no offense, several have lost an hand, tens have lost an eye, and two have been killed by police repression, in an almost complete media silence. But somehow China is supposed to be so much worse.
FWIW: I'm not expressing any opinion on whether events in China and France or elsewhere are comparable or not, or whether one is substantially worse. But I do appreciate having these things pointed out so I can consider and research them myself.
Chaos and bloodshed in Hong Kong district as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists, residents
The group used bamboo sticks and other weapons to attack people in the area and in the West Rail Line station, injuring Democratic Party lawmaker Lam Cheuk-ting, who was seen bleeding from his mouth in a social media live stream.
I wonder if it’s like Maduro’s socialist ‘colectivo’ gangs [1] in Venezuela that rove around on motorcycles and assault and even murder anti-government protestors without punishment from the state. But obviously less serious and violent.
[1] https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-maduro-venezu...
Edit: there were accusations that HK gangs were 'hired' last time when a large group of weapon wielding gangs assaulted protestors in 2014: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/04/hong-kong-legi...
Couple with the riot cops now hide their faces behind masks, and assailants hiding their faces as well. Watchmen, anyone?
Never change, China.
For another reporting of the triad attack, see BBC [1] and the Times [2].
It was leaked a few days ago that the government was planning to use triads to do the dirty work (See point 4 in [3] and [4] in Chinese). Using triads happened during the 2014 umbrella protest, but this time the attack on arbitrary citizens (not necessarily the protesters) is on a completely different scale: a terrorist attack.
And there are videos showing that the police “co-operated” with the triads (by turning a blind eye: arriving at the scene late [5] [6], chatting with the triad attackers [7], closing the police stations and not responding to cases during the events).
[1]: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-49066982
[2]: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/2c35b094-abe5-11e9-b657-1...
[3]: https://www.facebook.com/ChanKamShui/posts/2336638383089638
[4]: https://nextplus.nextmedia.com/article/2_682569_0
[5]: A video showing two policemen turning their back on the the subway station right before the attack: https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/cg0hm2/hkpf_leavi...
[6]: A video allegedly showed how the triad members (on the left) left the scene when the police (on the right) arrived at one scene: https://www.facebook.com/ChanKamShui/videos/477470036387268/
[7]: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=316880969036144
Never change, China.
https://yukari.sr.ht/hk-timelapse.mp4
P.S. watching on Sway, thank you Drew.
That said I would welcome some statistics to clarify what the prevailing opinion is. (The turnout figures are impressive, but they can't say anything about what the rest of Hong Kong thinks.)
The ideal goal is either turning Mainland to be more like their values or being cut loose into a "offically a part of China that we don't deliver mail to" like Taiwan. The Mainland could always go Tiananmen Square part 2 but it would do more damage to their relations, create martyrs, and lead to sanctions and boycotts value.
Support for independence is strong primarily among young people, so embracing the cause of independence would probably split the protest movement along generational lines. However, everybody knows that Hong Kong's special deal with mainland will expire after 2046 and it doesn't seem like anyone outside the independence movement really has a strategy to preserve democracy after that.
Universal sufferage has been trending as another talking point too among protesters. This would be very long term because if Hong Kong would allot all seats in the LegCo based on popular vote Beijing would almost certainly lose its ability to legislate this easily and hand pick the government.
I'm half joking, but also definitely wanted to plant that idea for the American readers. Wherever there's chaos and instability, the CIA is often there. (Even in nations with which the US isn't openly in a trade war.)
Alex Jones, is that you?
Hong Kong is a thorn in their side, no?
Another question to ask is how did China receive technology transfers from US corporations? This is against the sovereign interests of the US yet it occurred with the cooperation of Americans in various agencies & corporations.
The CIA was running large segments of both sides of the uprising that resulted in the Mossadegh government being swept out of favor and replaced by autocratic rule by the Shah of Iran.
The involvement of the CIA on one side of a conflict sometimes isn't to make that side win, it is to assure that that sides behavior fits an intended pattern which serves the desired outcome.
There's the more famous cases like that yellow vests self-proclaimed (and wrongly so) spokesperson who lost an eye to a rubber bullet. There's the old Zineb Redouane who was at home in Marseille when she was hit in the head by a tar gas can (thrown from a launcher, not by hand) and died accordingly.
But then, there's also the THOUSANDS of daily anonymous victims of state repression. Because those weapons, along with "sting-ball grenades", get deployed in day-to-day police operations (controlling popular neighborhoods, football matches, free parties).
In such hard times, all my thoughts go to the comrades in Hong Kong and their close ones who are going to face very hard times. Solidarity is stronger than any prison!
We know that from the United States too when Oakland police shot rubber bullets at protestors' heads. Per the manufacturer you're supposed to bounce them off the ground at someone, not shoot them directly at someone's head.
There is NO comparison to anything in a civilized western society
French and American history are filled with government-sponsored and industry-sponsored militias murdering workers on strike or angry protesters.
In the USA, take a look at the "goon squads" targeted at indigenous communities and their modern equivalent deployed at Standing Rock. Or the FBI's COINTELPRO and government-sanctioned murder of many militants from the Black Panther and other revolutionary organizations. Or the attack on the MOVE movement when police killed 11 people (including 5 children) and destroyed dozens of house from the neighborhood.
In mainland France, such actions are usually carried out by the state apparatus, not private militias because owning and carrying guns is mostly illegal (except for hunting, with a license). Still, when the establishment in France was threatened during May 68 protests, De Gaulle called his private counter-revolutionary militia (Services d'Action Civique) to the rescue ; these were founded by Jacques Foccart (the psychopath responsible for "african matters" for De Gaulle) in the context of the war against Algerian liberation (back in 1960).
Now, it's the time for me to acknowledge that some people face levels of generalized repression way worse than we do in France/USA/Hong Kong. I'm thinking of people tortured by security services (such as FSB) all around the world for "not thinking right" or just out of suspicion.
In the western world, you can speak your mind very openly as long as it does not threaten the exploitative system we live in, while in some countries like Morocco simply insulting the king will get you in prison.
Still, this very wild violence is the foundation of every capitalist society and western societies are not exempt from it, contrary to what you seemed to imply. It's just not the general rule in our day-to-day lives (at least in richer neighborhoods).
I'm not well versed in French police history, but there are plenty of examples of government brutality in the United States. This isn't whataboutism as, quite frankly, none of the violence justifies any of the other violence and what China is doing is an atrocious violation of basic human rights.
Off the top of my head:
Kent State — killing university students
MOVE bombing - bombing a residential neighborhood in Philly
Iran Contra Affair - CIA allegedly funded drug traffickers allegedly playing a large role in unleashing crack cocaine into American inner cities (wanna talk about violence against youth…)
1968 Democratic National Convention
Dakota Access Pipeline protests - protestors were tear gassed and sprayed with water in freezing temperatures
And of course Trump's concentration camps.
If your argument hinges on the government looking the other way while a private party perpetrates violence I'd start looking at the Homestead Strike, the Ford Massacre, any small town in the south where the KKK + police department venn diagram was basically just a single circle, and of course Blackwater's (of Betsy Devoss fame) Nisour Square Massacre.
What is happening in Hong Kong is, presumably, the government using outside groups as a proxy for violence. I've outlined a number of instances of the American government using disproportionate violence and using outside groups to perpetrate disproportionate violence. The one thing I forgot were the allegations that the FBI used Gregory Scarpa (a mob hitman) to extract information might seem closer for you.
If you look to the south, there are plenty of instances of the American government funding South American rebel groups (while not the mob, they were not professionals, and did perpetrate plenty of heinous crimes). I mentioned the Contras in the context of the CIA funding drug trafficking into the US (if you don't believe that resulted in an explosion of violence go check out the homicide stats for LA County in the 1990s), but the Contras were extraordinarily violent in their home of Nicaragua.
Of course nothing is ever exactly the same. I don't think that making a difference between professional and hobbyist thug is one worth making here. Beyond that I don't think that legal vs illegal is a worth making either. Do you think the PRC is going to sanction the triads (therefor declaring their behavior illegal)? I don't.
The Scarpa and Crack episodes were closer to that, but it still doesn't seem like the Pinkertons were the closest we came to this in the USA
I think those matters are separate. The ricochet technique is for when you have a rubber bullet or buck shell that is loaded too hot for the engagement distance. When engaging belligerents at short range, some very hot rubber buck (and I'm not sure about single-projectile bullets, but I'd believe it) should be deliberately ricocheted to reduce energy.
However, as far as I'm aware, a lot of riot control shot shells today have considerably lower muzzle velocity and/or projectile mass because they are designed for direct fire in these shorter distance engagements; so it's not always misuse when a less-lethal shot shell or bullet is used without deliberate ricochet, and firing directly should reduce the chance of stray/negligent/accidental hits to soft targets.
Though generally speaking, these measures in CCP-run Hong Kong are extremely brutal, the proper or improper use of rubber bullets is the least of the worries, as they aren't riots to begin with. The government is starting the fight.
https://old.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/cg0diu/triads_att...
Many naiive young people from PRC I've talked to here in Canada sincerely believe that brutality is the only language Chinese people respond to, it's painful how broken the mainland people are.
I thought this was a sort of recapitulation of that. That still might be the case but I'm also starting to think this might be bad for the mainland Chinese government. They are fighting ideas about autonomy. The people in Hong Kong don't just want to sit back and make money - they want a say in how the world is run. They want power. That's the idea that's being fought against.
If it's China vs. Hong Kong then my money is on China. But what if that alienation between governed and government spreads from Hong Kong to other places in China? It seems unlikely but can the Chinese government respond to that?
There's that classic Churchill quote about Democracy (The worst but for all the others) and - if what I've described is accurate - this is one of the places Democracy shines because it's agile enough to concede power as a way of avoiding chaos. More autocratic systems tend to be a lot firmer - they concede nothing by their nature but the prices of firmness is brittleness. If they are finally forced to concede it comes in the form of shattering.