I live in a small european city, and thus we bought a second hand "Renault Twizy" with my SO.
It's a small car: 2 seater, 80km of range, and a top speed of 110 km/hour (when modded) on the highway.
People always think it's a stupid choice: "But it's slow; but you can't go far with it".
The reality is that it's perfect for us: there's no maintenance (apart from the wheels, as the regen is top notch) and it fits everywhere. We rarely do more than 80km round-trip anyways. And when we do (maybe twice a year), then we rent a car for ~80CHF. The charge is quick (3hours), and cheap (1CHF for 6kWh).
A lot of people would not buy an electric car if it meant they would have to rent a car to do long trips. Why would I pay for a car and then have to rent another car?
My wife and I need a car that can travel 6 hours (350+ miles\550km) 3-5 times a year. There is a super charger out of the way where my wife’s sister goes to college. It would make a 20-30 bearable so we can make the journey with some charge leftover. One of our vacation spots has a destination charger at an Embassy Suites nearby. Its likely too busy on holidays to use.
Tesla Model 3 is the only one that fits our needs and budget. I’m very carious about a Tesla and we might end up with a Q5 instead.
I have a hybrid (2013 Volvo V60 D6), and I really like the car itself with it's three modes, Pure, Hybrid and Power (Pure feels like a BEV with a tiny 40km battery; Hybrid is mostly like my previous car, just 15 years younger; Power is pretty pointless for daily driving, but it's quite fun to "feel" the combined 285hp).
BUT: Every single time I drive on Diesel, I feel like I should have gone with a pure electric car: Driving on battery just has a much better feel to it. That's with a 70hp electric engine (not much for a 2t car) and a really well behaved 215hp diesel engine (it only "roars" when it delivers a lot of power, but during normal driving it's calm).
The point is: Don't go with the Q5 Hybrid if you can avoid it ;-) If you can afford it, maybe lease a cheap/nice car for a year (or two) and see what the BEV market has to offer then. You won't regret it (and worst case: Save some money by buying a Q5 as leasing return).
It would be nice to wait for the Audi EV offerings. I might have 12 months to wait but with a baby on the way I need a reliable car. Our 2004 Corolla is on its way out.
some diesels can be quite nice. I had a golf tdi for a while. the engine was basically silent at highway speeds, and it was honestly a bit better for city driving than my hot hatch. too bad it turned out to be illegal.
I agree with you on the Q5 though, but only because it's too big.
> Why would I pay for a car and then have to rent another car?
I had a miser of an uncle that did lots of long road trips, but always rented cars for them, once impressionably do a back of an envelope costs breakdown of putting long road trip mileage on a personal vehicle versus per-trip rentals. Even assuming both cars got equivalent mileage (my uncle was doing math with comparable ICE sedans two decades ago or so), the maintenance subsidy of dipping into a rental fleet was much cheaper than the long term maintenance cost on a personal vehicle.
Even if you think my uncle's math was off one way or the other, I feel like it should be pointed out that "rent a car for long trips" isn't a new attitude unique to electric vehicle owners, and people have advocated it for a long time.
Similarly, my current employer and at least one of my past employers highly discourages using personal vehicles for long work trips, and beyond just the obvious liability issues, such employers have made sure to point out very similar logic to my uncle's that the increased miles on your vehicle is rarely worth the long term maintenance costs when rental companies have cheaper maintenance costs, because they scale maintenance across a fleet rather than a single vehicle charged "retail" costs.
Yes, but loaded in the rental car cost besides a profit margin is a wide range of other costs not borne by a private vehicle owner. I understand the broad concept but focusing on maintenance costs seems a bit odd when you are footing the bill for sales, marketing, rent etc. Whether these outweigh the cost efficiencies of fleet maintenance is an interesting question, though.
I know multiple people that own a car and will rent something for long trips. A lot of that is for peace of mind and being able to rent exactly what they need. Peace of mind is they don't worry the car will break down. And they can rent a car that is large enough or small enough for that particular trip. One trip it's them for a weekend. Other trip it's them and four other people for a week.
I've noticed that people that do this tend not to be 'car people'
One of the differentiators between personal and business use is that when I worked for a big corporation they had excellent negotiated rates that always included unlimited mileage and full insurance.
If you rent a car personally, and want to have that same peace of mind, the extras will cost almost as much as the rental itself.
I routinely take day trips on the weekends that are in the 150 to 250 mile round-trip range, often two in a weekend. Doing that routinely in most electric cars I've seen wouldn't be feasible. Trying to rent a car for these trips would be a headache as well, and expensive. I think I've had one weekend in the last two months where I haven't made at least one of these trips. Until electric cars can make these kinds of trips commonplace, I won't be getting one.
I don't live in a city, I live in the country where everything is far away from everything else.
Congratulations on being in the very long tail of car users.
For what little it is worth presuming you are exploring more than just excuses: Tesla Model 3 can do 325 miles on a single charge. Even assuming there is not a single way to charge on that day trip, it is do-able with current technology, and maybe even two of them if they are both closer to the 150 side of your range possibility. Tesla superchargers add more possibilities, but so can even just any old outdoor outlet at a destination or interesting stop along the way.
Maybe I am in the long tail of car users, but so is everyone else where I live. Driving longer distances is the norm here.
EVs are getting closer and I've been waiting for them to get to where I can use them. I only have one vehicle, and don't want to buy another one just to drive around town. But getting stuck somewhere in the middle of the forest because I misjudged the range is not something I want to have happen.
That's largely what I meant by "long tail". You clearly aren't an outlier, there are lots of folks in the long tail as is the nature of most long tail distributions. I may have been a bit flippant because there are lots of people in the long tail and almost every thread very easily devolves into (obviously valid and personally meaningful) anecdotal discussions of lives out in the long tail. I certainly sympathize, I learned to drive while living in a rural American house that was 30-70 miles from practically anywhere at all.
But the article here makes a good point that to some extent no other transportation system in history has been so subservient to the long tail, and no other transportation transition so completely weighed down in every discussion with anecdata from heavy users and/or nostalgic fondness for high-sigma deviations from personal mean trips.
So my apologies for being curt in my previous reply, as I didn't perceive your argument from anecdote a useful addition to the discussion. Which isn't to say that I don't understand your point, but that it's one of many that comes out of the woodwork all the time in these discussions (you aren't an outlier, you are one of many in the long tail).
My real point was, "What are you planning to do about it?" You have related your status quo. You have provided enough evidence that changing that status quo is a step change that will require good consideration and possibly plenty of effort. That status quo is your "normal", certainly, but it's also not the "way it has always been" that it feels to be. What would someone's ancestors in that region have done before the invention of the car? Before gas stations were dependable/reliable infrastructure in that region? That wasn't as long ago as it seems (especially when cultural long term memory elides "short term problems" like the 70s oil crisis; the current "reliability" of ICE vehicles is a fascinating blip in history).
Are you bringing up your dependency on ICE vehicles to lament a status quo you don't think you have the power to change (in which case, why bring it up at all?) or to figure out what that step transition might entail in personal trade-offs versus your current dependencies?
(It's not entirely unfair to compare modern America's dependency/addiction to ICE vehicles versus it's long and many, recurring dependency/addiction cycles to nicotine smoking. So far you have told us, you only own one vehicle and don't believe you can go "cold turkey" on gas. Do you really feel that you need to quit or are you happy with your addiction? Or can you find middle ground that isn't just "cold turkey"?)
Apologies for such a lengthy digression into what may feel to you to perhaps be rhetorical questions. My curiosity here is genuine now that I'm over the initial anger that you immediately went to argument by anecdote, and my suggestion was very genuine in the immediately previous post that there are ways to "get better" if you came into the discussion in good faith looking for solutions today rather than just complaining about some status quo you don't think you can change.
If you will excuse answering an anecdote with another anecdote: I had a really cool conversation once with someone that does roadside assistance in rural Idaho/Montana. They were telling me about a guy that had them on speed dial because he loved his Tesla and his favorite drive to visit friends and family he drove two or three times a year obviously didn't have enough superchargers along the way. This guy decided it was cheaper to pay for a tow at the end of the range of his car to the next nearest charge spot than to reroute. He was doing it often enough that he would often call ahead by a week or two and the tow truck would just be there waiting in his usual spot. He was doing it often enough that the roadside assistance folks were even looking into ways to do some sort of mobile charging for the guy as just another assistance service they could provide not just to that particular Tesla owner but maybe even for other future users, as that would presumably be a growing mini-industry in rural Idaho/Montana.
There are stories if you look for them of the same sorts of "early adopters" needing tows between gas stations in those same exact areas. It isn't a "new" phenomenon with electric cars, and there are all sorts of industry solutions if we work together to solve such things.
Most car owners have no problem renting a vehicle on a trip, at least when they fly out somewhere. Trips almost 100% renting (hotel room, chef services [restaurants], seat on the plane, car, limo to/from airport). Once in that mindset, it is much easier to rent a car for shorter trips.
> Why would I pay for a car and then have to rent another car?
Because it makes sense to do it this way financially. I live very close to work, and commute about 10 miles a day. Once or twice a year I want to drive a few hundred miles, so it makes much more sense to rent a long range car for this than buy one.
I don't think GP was criticising you - it makes perfect sense. 'Most people' just wouldn't consider it, or would do something that makes less sense anyway.
I ride an electric moped, which has the exact affliction as described - but here in Vienna, this is of no consequence. I am constantly catching up with the fast overpowered auto's on the road, sitting at the lights, and maneuver in front of them regardless of how fast they overtook me at the previous stop. Its really a rabbit/tortoise situation - and in the end, I get to the same destinations in the same time frame, albeit with a drastically reduced carbon footprint, since I charge my batteries from solar ...
I think once people get a taste of electric transportation, especially mopeds/bikes, it becomes very clear: the future is electric.
Personally, I'll take slow electric over internal combustion any day. Its a huge improvement in life quality.
While it does surely fulfill the needs of someone living in a small EU city (and that needs not to commute for work) it is not IMHO really comparable to a car.
BTW, I guess it depends on the country, here in Italy you surely cannot get on highways with it (as much as you cannot get on them with an Isetta or with an original FIAT 500), but the issue - at least in theory - is that a number of "main" motorways have the same highway limits AND that a number of city by-passes are categorized as "urban highway":
Italian but understandable via Google translate:
Nice and (unlike the Twizy in its default configuration) it doesn't rain inside it.
And additionally it says "THE IDEAL MIX BETWEEN MOTORBIKE AND CAR."
From the FAQ's:
What number plate do I need for my Microlino?
The Microlino is an L7e vehicle and therefore requires the same format as a motorcycle.
Though it seems "borderline" with weight, I seem to remember that - unless there is some new norm/exception for electric vehicles - the limit is 450 Kg (which is what the Twizy weights):
The most impactful way municipalities could encourage EV adoption would be to subsidize the installation of chargers at work. For most people - especially if they have an ICE at home for the weekend - this would eliminate the need for costly home installation and charger hunting
Around $2600 plus the cost of electricity. Not viable for renters or apartment dwellers, and not a good candidate for subsidy since it would be used by 1-2 cars at most.
Local governments could subsidize installing 'at least x per y units' in a complex and increase the number as EVs get more and more popular. On a more hands off approach when they do start taking hold among more of the renting segment available EV parking will become a selling point. Subsidizing them would help get over that initial 'I rent so I won't have any where to charge normally' problem with EVs (ignoring they're out of the price range of many renters currently).
Austin, TX apparently. FTA: “Level Two is a 240 volt socket, which are the weirdo-looking ones you see for your washer or dryer or some kinds of ovens. This is a much faster connection, adding 20-25 miles per hour, but most garages don’t have them, so you need to get an electrician to install them (that’s $2,000 right there) and then you need to buy the charger itself (usually about $600, though there are often rebates for this sort of thing).”
An L2 charger costs about $750 to install at home. I paid an electrician $300 to run a line from my fuse box to garage and install the outlet. Then the actual charger, a Siemens VersiCharge, is $450. I still need to do a bit of drywall repair from where the electrician had to cut to run the line, but that's trivial.
I paid a few hundred for an outlet in the garage and use the charger that came with the car. Really wasn’t a big deal. It paid for itself within the first 2 months.
This may exclude emergency or otherwise unplanned situations, though. If you suddenly find yourself in a situation where you need to get somewhere distant, fast - you may not always be able to achieve this using a lower-range (~100mi) EV.
Maybe I'm wrong, though. It's just that... coming from public transit-only life (I've only started driving very recently), what I really value about cars is that when you need you can just sit down and drive whenever and wherever you need.
Except it seems like you mostly find slow L2 chargers that take 6 hours to do anything meaningful... In places where you are likely to only park for 30 minutes (maybe 2 hours at most).
Might help if you have a Leaf with a tiny battery that constantly needs topping off, but useless if you have a Tesla.
I'm not talking about workplaces. Having slow charging at workplaces makes the most sense, because you actually will be leaving the car there for 8 hours.
The British government covers 75% of the cost of a home charger and will subsidise workplace and on-street charging points too.
The infrastructure is more of a challenge in the US due to your 110v system - most British garages already have 3kW sockets and the unsubsidised cost of a 7kW charger installation is typically less than $1,000.
I don't think it's quite the same as buying a vacation home. I think having everything in the house be "the way they left it" is a much bigger motivation than being able to visit whenever they want. at least, this is what people with second homes tell me.
this is actually closer to why I would want a car with a longer range. I realize I could just rent something if I need to drive a longer distance, but I like my car and it wouldn't be there when I arrived.
But people make huge strategic mistakes in their life because of "might". Basically it's hoarding behavior.
I might need this kayak, so it'll take up space in my life as I move it from apartment to condo to home for the next 20 years. Storage units are full of these mistakes.
I think some EV manufacturers (Fiat?) tried to alleviate this by offering rental cars for a certain number of days per year to people who bought their cars.
(that said after driving an electric car renting a gas car seems sort of like copping out - silly strategy)
that said after driving an electric car renting a gas car seems sort of like copping out - silly strategy)
If you meant "they should rent high range bigger battery stack cars" I agree. The heinous cost of owning huge kWh battery for occasional use is silly. But fits MAKE ice cars so a cheap coverage for range is rental of an ice for the agency doing this model.
> The heinous cost of owning huge kWh battery for occasional use is silly
I thought like this in the beginning, and there's a fallacy in there.
Think not about huge kwh battery, think of (range of a battery in miles) * (battery cycles)
That gives you the projected car mileage.
First generation evs from other manufacturers with ~20kwh batteries will have to replace their battery in just a few years. They might cycle their battery once a day while a tesla might be once a week or more. Many many leafs got new batteries after their range decreased significantly 50% within 5 years.
Most American households have two cars. Pure EVs aren't right for everyone, but most of those two-car households would be very well served with an EV and an ICE or PHEV.
Long range is a must for me. I live downtown so don't need to commute, but drive out to the mountains at least a dozen times per year. Long-range driving is probably 2/3 of my total KMs, most of it in places with no EV infrastructure. Hell, I've had range anxiety before with an ICE vehicle (topping up at the 'last' gas station even if I'm 3/4 full).
I really wish hydrogen-electric or EVs with an on-board generator caught on. Having a city-only car is a waste of time when you don't commute, or if you commute with public transit (which I did when living in the suburbs anyway).
From just the headline, I thought to myself, "aww, isn't that cute, someone got a new electric car. Let's read the insights they gathered that us old-timer EV owners already know."
I've owned a Leaf for eight years, and it was worth a read. The first half, if you already own an EV, is blah, blah, blah. But there were some good insights in the second half, including that you might not need a Level 2 charger in your garage, a (US 120V) Level 1 might do. I will say that one might be capable of installing a 240V outlet oneself and save $2000.
But most insightful were the observations of how the whole system is "rigged" (for lack of a better word) for ICEs. A lot of the poo-pooing of EVs would go away if we didn't build a system that assumes one will plop their ass in a emissions-spewing two-ton wheelchair to go get a quart of milk.
L2 chargers aren't that expensive to install. I paid an electrician $300 to run a line from my fuse box to garage and install the outlet. Then the actual charger, a Siemens VersiCharge, is $450. I still need to do a bit of drywall repair from where the electrician had to cut to run the line, but that's trivial.
>I will say that one might be capable of installing a 240V outlet oneself and save $2000.
It took us fifteen minutes (excluding the run to home depot for the socket, breaker, wire and a steel pipe) to run a new 240v socket from our electrical panel in the garage to a few feet away from it. I can't imagine ever spending $2000 on the installation of a single 240V socket right next to the panel.
In my case the panel is in the basement and about 50 feet away. More importantly, I would need to be upgraded to 200 amp service which my older house doesn't have. So well over 2k.
It's not clear to me from the description, I understand that in the US the wall sockets don't put out a lot of juice, (120 volts at 15 amps = 1.8kW) but is "Level 2" like my household wall sockets (240 volts at 13 amps = 3.1kW) or is it more (e.g. some of my friends installed 240 volts at 30 amps = 7.2kW to cut their charging time in half) ?
[ Also, presumably Americans do have electric ovens right? So your ovens can't be 120 volts at 15 amps, that'd be like a kid's toy, there must be beefier power inside a typical American house already, albeit maybe not near the car? ]
Electric ovens generally run on level 2 sockets. They're usually 30 amps but some run as high as 80 for dual chargers and whatnot. You can also find really low ones too, it's all over the place.
I spent the first month and a half on a level 1 set up, basically an extension cord in my driveway and I was surprised that I only had to go to a faster charging station twice. One of these two times was just because I was curious to try it. You could argue the second time was just anxiety because my remaining charge never went lower than 20%.
The only reason I still got a level 2 chargers at home was because I have doubts a level 1 will be enough to charge in the colder months of winter.
„But I would say that our family makes a 200+ mile trip, oh, about 6-8 times a year, 400 miles round trip. So that’s, at most, 3,200 miles of long-distance driving a year.”
Wow, I took a leasing car 3 months ago, done 9600km since. Living in a not so rural area outside of Aachen, Germany.
I got halfway through and thought, “good lord, cars are kind of a dumb idea when you think about it,” so thumbs up to the author. Cars mostly solve the problems created by everyone else having cars.
I read an article on the ill effects of cars dated from 1967. I thought it would be very dated but it was spot on. A car is great when you're one of the few that has them. They suck when everyone does. But then not having a car sucks worse.
As far as chargers go, new ones are being added all the time, and in 5 years max you will find them everywhere, including a lot of apartment building parking lots.
I bought a used 2017 Leaf a few months ago, and it’s been great.
I commute 75-90 miles per day depending on the route I use. There are no chargers at work (which is a military installation). The Leaf is technically rated at 95 miles range, but I am getting 120 out of it. However, the Level 1 charging wasn’t going to cut it. I would fully charge the car over the weekend, but I’d never quite get back to full during the week, and would have to track down a DC fast charger on Thursday. Which are quite expensive, actually; the cost is equivalent to the amount gasoline would cost for the same number of miles you get. Installed a Level 2 charger (for $2000) and since then there’s been no problem.
I do have other vehicles, but given how much less expensive the Leaf is to drive than my previous ride (a Honda Fit) if I didn’t it would absolutely make financial sense to rent a car the five or six times a year I make road trips. The car is so inexpensive to drive that it actually makes more sense for us to park my wife’s fully paid off F150 and get her a Leaf as well. The amount we’re spending on gas and repairs on the truck is more than the monthly payment on the car loan for the Leaf plus the electricity.
I was spending about $130 a month on gas for the Fit. It didn’t break down much but at 130,000 it needed both front axle bearings replaced. And of course it needed belts, oil changes every 10,000 miles, and brake pads and rotors every 30,000 miles or so.
I mean, not that you're wrong or anything but the leaf also needs annual service which isn't any cheaper than that for a petrol vehicle even though there's no oil change to be done, and it will eventually need new brake pads and rotors too. Same with suspension bits, those things will deteriorate exactly the same as they would on an ICE vehicle.
Brake pads are physically worn by braking. But the EV has an electric motor, which is the same thing as a generator. I don't mean they're pretty similar, they're the _same thing_ because of how electricity works‡. So this means (albeit with some extra circuitry) the EV can just run everything backwards and turn your movement back into electricity to brake the vehicle. It does still need brakes, but it uses them much less than an ICE vehicle.
‡ And likewise an electric pump and a turbine are the same thing in opposite directions. At Dinorwig, for example, the pumped storage facility, when water flows down it drives a bunch of huge turbines to make electricity for peak usage and when they have spare electricity to store those same machines function as pumps to move the water back up to the top lake.
Prius has a well-earned reputation for never needing brake pads. Regeneration takes the brunt of every stop, the physical brakes are just the final part.
I bought a used Prius for my son, it's been a great vehicle.
I talked to a man charging his leaf at walmart at the evgo fast charger. He had leased it new, commuted 100 miles a day, charged once via the nissan no charge to charge and said he was way ahead of gas for his previous car. and he was driving a late model car too.
On the other hand, he probably was pretty dependent on fast charging.
I have similar experience with my hybrid, compared to my previous paid-off F150. Although still a gas car, the cost savings of driving it (gas, plus oil changes are half as often) pays for about 80% of my car payment.
My next car in another 10 - 15 years will definitely be electric.
Repairs for us average $2000 a year. Trucks are expensive to repair. We've had it for two years. It has needed a catalytic converter, a new belt, a new brake caliper, and it probably right now needs a head gasket. It's losing oil.
Cost of my Leaf loan payment is $250 a month. Plus $30 in gas, for a total of $280.
I find it very similar to the experience I had with a digital camera around 1998 or so. It was often less convenient than film; you couldn't just buy more film at every corner store. The photo->computer download process was honestly a bit of a pain, as was buying enough storage space. Many people in those days wanted prints, which was much less convenient. But it was pretty clear that it was the future after a few months of living with it. Peak film was around 2001; I suspect peak ICE will be 2025 or so.
(There's a further analogy to be made here with smartphones and autonomous ride sharing EVs)
For an electrician to install an outlet in your garage is TWO THOUSAND DOLLARS?! If you paid that, you got mega ripped off. That's an order of magnitude greater than it should cost.
No. At least not in my case. The electrician had to install an extra breaker in an auxiliary box in the basement, then run 30 feet of conduit to get the 240v line out of the house. The price of having a charger installed varies tremendously depending on where it needs to go and where your house’s breaker box is located relative to that.
You know, conduit is less than $3.50 for a 10 ft section last I bought some. Fittings are another dollar or so each, and I can't see 30 ft of copper wire costing 2 grand. So you are paying mostly for the electrification's time. If there is a lot more work involved, and if I lived in an area where I wasn't allowed to do my own electrical work, I'd at least dig the trench myself and take care of pounding a whole through the foundation wall if needed.
I've used 400V outlets, as they're the standard outlet in a European datacentre (for the UPS or PDU). Most people don't use them, and can be a bit uncomfortable even touching them.
I can understand Americans also being fairly unfamiliar with a 240V outlet, taking more care with it, and preferring to employ a professional to install one.
It's just 3 phases with 230V each, which gives you 400V across individual phases. Same safety rules apply as on standard outlets, so yes, it really is just familiarity. Also lots of European households do have 400V outlets (we have 2 in our house, basement and garage). I even installed one temporarily in my living room for construction/remodeling and working with the required thick wires they are unconfortable to work with.
I was quoted 650 just for the NEMA 14-30, no evse or permit fee included. New construction, the panel is literally right next to where the plug would go. That still seems high. Last time I had an electrician install a plug it was 175 with running new line to the other side of the garage.
I think these electricians hear "EV" and think the person asking for the work has a ton of cash.
I just got an e-Golf on a really good deal (thanks to slickdeals pointing out you can get 10k off the price). At first was worried, but that's all gone away. I've gone this whole week without even charging it and the included 120v charger over the weekend works just fine for my use case.
I've only used a public charger once and that was the first day owning it since the charger at the dealer wasn't working right.
> Would I recommend buying an electric car? This is a bit like asking if someone should buy a computer. The answer is, “Probably – but what do you need it for?”
I'd say it's more like recommending to buy stock in something you're already invested in. "Hey, the stock is going up, but it will go much higher if you (and your friends) buy it too!"
The more people buy/use EV the better the infrastructure around us, the better the market, prices and models to choose from. And better for the environment. Besides, trust me, driving an EV feels like "the future", if you're into that kind of thing.
My wife and I have invested in a PHEV vehicle, a Kia Niro (55km e-range, plus a ~40L gas tank), for the next 5 years (a lease) and we put a charger in our front door. We live in a townhouse with no garage but we park it on the street in front. She drives it everyday 45km to-from work and it works great, 98% of the time all-electric except for the long range roadtrips where the gas kicks in. Still, the Niro is a quite efficient hybrid when the battery runs out. We are saving about 1500€/year on gas compared to her previous tiny compact car.
The most important takeaway is not all the rambling on the EV, but the conclusion.
I live in one of those dense cities (Paris), with bike lanes and good public transportation, with several micromobile electric transportation offerings, and it's great! For most people living there, buying a car just wouldn't cross their mind. Parking is hard to find, stupidely expensive (as it should be), roads are congested, and shrinking (thanks to our mayor actions), and cars upkeep is prohibitive.
Most people do take public transportation to vacations as well. I'm in the minority, borrowing (I'd loan otherwise) an ICE vehicle for holidays, and I'm very happy with that.
While some people think EV are the second coming of cars, I'm starting to question their ecological benefits. Sure, they aren't burning fossil fuels to move every single day. But they still need batteries, in high quantities, for which the current method of production isn't exactly ecological. Plus they need lots of metal/plastics. Not ecological. Then you still need roads and those roads maintenance. Not ecological as well.
While I love EV for their low pollution and low noise, I still think we should probably focus on not using cars in the first place unless there really isn't any other choice.
Last year about 70 million automobiles were produced, and there are something like a billion of them in the world. They must be replaced with EV's as soon as possible. It would be great to get people off of cars, but that would take decades, and EV's are here already. Also for many applications like trucks you have to have individual vehicles, and they need to be EV's rather than ICE's. Any damage to the environment from EV's is outweighed at least 10 times over by the damage that ICE's do.
Lost me at "Most people do not need a 270 range car."
Most people where? We're in the US. Weekends frequently include short road trips, up to 150 miles each way. I've put 30,000 miles on my M3, with 325 mile range, usually gets me there and back without charging. And even for daily commuting, once in a while I forget to plug it in when I get home. The range means 'no penalty' as I can get there and back 2x on one full charge.
Anyway, for those who love to drive and like to roam on weekends, a 135 mile range would kind of suck.
My question to you is - how often do you drive for three hours without stopping? Either for going to the toilet, or just to stretch your leg. I occasionally drive > 200 miles in the UK. Literally every motorway service station here has a rapid charger (50kW+) which will fill your battery in 30 minutes.
You are correct that I seldom drive 3 hours without stopping.
However, as a real example, I'll drive from San Jose to Healdsburg on a day trip. That is 114 miles each way and I can make the round trip without charging at all. I pay 12 cents/KWh at home. 26 cents at a super charger. With 325 mile range, I get the savings and no anxiety about finding a charger and then finding something to do for 30 minutes. I could likely optimize it by trying to find a charger near an eatery or place of interest, but it's nice to not have that additional thought and research process. Just determine it's within easy round trip range and forget about it.
Most Americans are also 2-car families. Once we can afford it, my daily commuter will be electric, while my partner's car will be a traditional ICE vehicle. We'll take it on the long weekend trips without wasting as much money (or CO2) on the commute.
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[ 2.9 ms ] story [ 175 ms ] threadIt's a small car: 2 seater, 80km of range, and a top speed of 110 km/hour (when modded) on the highway.
People always think it's a stupid choice: "But it's slow; but you can't go far with it".
The reality is that it's perfect for us: there's no maintenance (apart from the wheels, as the regen is top notch) and it fits everywhere. We rarely do more than 80km round-trip anyways. And when we do (maybe twice a year), then we rent a car for ~80CHF. The charge is quick (3hours), and cheap (1CHF for 6kWh).
I love it
My wife and I need a car that can travel 6 hours (350+ miles\550km) 3-5 times a year. There is a super charger out of the way where my wife’s sister goes to college. It would make a 20-30 bearable so we can make the journey with some charge leftover. One of our vacation spots has a destination charger at an Embassy Suites nearby. Its likely too busy on holidays to use.
Tesla Model 3 is the only one that fits our needs and budget. I’m very carious about a Tesla and we might end up with a Q5 instead.
BUT: Every single time I drive on Diesel, I feel like I should have gone with a pure electric car: Driving on battery just has a much better feel to it. That's with a 70hp electric engine (not much for a 2t car) and a really well behaved 215hp diesel engine (it only "roars" when it delivers a lot of power, but during normal driving it's calm).
The point is: Don't go with the Q5 Hybrid if you can avoid it ;-) If you can afford it, maybe lease a cheap/nice car for a year (or two) and see what the BEV market has to offer then. You won't regret it (and worst case: Save some money by buying a Q5 as leasing return).
I agree with you on the Q5 though, but only because it's too big.
In my case (and as said in the article): because electric cars (at least mine which was second-hand) are cheap and maintenance free.
I had a miser of an uncle that did lots of long road trips, but always rented cars for them, once impressionably do a back of an envelope costs breakdown of putting long road trip mileage on a personal vehicle versus per-trip rentals. Even assuming both cars got equivalent mileage (my uncle was doing math with comparable ICE sedans two decades ago or so), the maintenance subsidy of dipping into a rental fleet was much cheaper than the long term maintenance cost on a personal vehicle.
Even if you think my uncle's math was off one way or the other, I feel like it should be pointed out that "rent a car for long trips" isn't a new attitude unique to electric vehicle owners, and people have advocated it for a long time.
Similarly, my current employer and at least one of my past employers highly discourages using personal vehicles for long work trips, and beyond just the obvious liability issues, such employers have made sure to point out very similar logic to my uncle's that the increased miles on your vehicle is rarely worth the long term maintenance costs when rental companies have cheaper maintenance costs, because they scale maintenance across a fleet rather than a single vehicle charged "retail" costs.
Given, I'm childless in a city and rent so I could understand why a parent would potentially want one where I live.
I've noticed that people that do this tend not to be 'car people'
If you rent a car personally, and want to have that same peace of mind, the extras will cost almost as much as the rental itself.
I don't live in a city, I live in the country where everything is far away from everything else.
For what little it is worth presuming you are exploring more than just excuses: Tesla Model 3 can do 325 miles on a single charge. Even assuming there is not a single way to charge on that day trip, it is do-able with current technology, and maybe even two of them if they are both closer to the 150 side of your range possibility. Tesla superchargers add more possibilities, but so can even just any old outdoor outlet at a destination or interesting stop along the way.
EVs are getting closer and I've been waiting for them to get to where I can use them. I only have one vehicle, and don't want to buy another one just to drive around town. But getting stuck somewhere in the middle of the forest because I misjudged the range is not something I want to have happen.
But the article here makes a good point that to some extent no other transportation system in history has been so subservient to the long tail, and no other transportation transition so completely weighed down in every discussion with anecdata from heavy users and/or nostalgic fondness for high-sigma deviations from personal mean trips.
So my apologies for being curt in my previous reply, as I didn't perceive your argument from anecdote a useful addition to the discussion. Which isn't to say that I don't understand your point, but that it's one of many that comes out of the woodwork all the time in these discussions (you aren't an outlier, you are one of many in the long tail).
My real point was, "What are you planning to do about it?" You have related your status quo. You have provided enough evidence that changing that status quo is a step change that will require good consideration and possibly plenty of effort. That status quo is your "normal", certainly, but it's also not the "way it has always been" that it feels to be. What would someone's ancestors in that region have done before the invention of the car? Before gas stations were dependable/reliable infrastructure in that region? That wasn't as long ago as it seems (especially when cultural long term memory elides "short term problems" like the 70s oil crisis; the current "reliability" of ICE vehicles is a fascinating blip in history).
Are you bringing up your dependency on ICE vehicles to lament a status quo you don't think you have the power to change (in which case, why bring it up at all?) or to figure out what that step transition might entail in personal trade-offs versus your current dependencies?
(It's not entirely unfair to compare modern America's dependency/addiction to ICE vehicles versus it's long and many, recurring dependency/addiction cycles to nicotine smoking. So far you have told us, you only own one vehicle and don't believe you can go "cold turkey" on gas. Do you really feel that you need to quit or are you happy with your addiction? Or can you find middle ground that isn't just "cold turkey"?)
Apologies for such a lengthy digression into what may feel to you to perhaps be rhetorical questions. My curiosity here is genuine now that I'm over the initial anger that you immediately went to argument by anecdote, and my suggestion was very genuine in the immediately previous post that there are ways to "get better" if you came into the discussion in good faith looking for solutions today rather than just complaining about some status quo you don't think you can change.
There are stories if you look for them of the same sorts of "early adopters" needing tows between gas stations in those same exact areas. It isn't a "new" phenomenon with electric cars, and there are all sorts of industry solutions if we work together to solve such things.
Because it makes sense to do it this way financially. I live very close to work, and commute about 10 miles a day. Once or twice a year I want to drive a few hundred miles, so it makes much more sense to rent a long range car for this than buy one.
I ride an electric moped, which has the exact affliction as described - but here in Vienna, this is of no consequence. I am constantly catching up with the fast overpowered auto's on the road, sitting at the lights, and maneuver in front of them regardless of how fast they overtook me at the previous stop. Its really a rabbit/tortoise situation - and in the end, I get to the same destinations in the same time frame, albeit with a drastically reduced carbon footprint, since I charge my batteries from solar ...
I think once people get a taste of electric transportation, especially mopeds/bikes, it becomes very clear: the future is electric.
Personally, I'll take slow electric over internal combustion any day. Its a huge improvement in life quality.
https://www.renault.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/twizy/dimens...
It is more like a bike with 4 wheels, or if you prefer it is as much a car as the Isetta was a car:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isetta
While it does surely fulfill the needs of someone living in a small EU city (and that needs not to commute for work) it is not IMHO really comparable to a car.
BTW, I guess it depends on the country, here in Italy you surely cannot get on highways with it (as much as you cannot get on them with an Isetta or with an original FIAT 500), but the issue - at least in theory - is that a number of "main" motorways have the same highway limits AND that a number of city by-passes are categorized as "urban highway": Italian but understandable via Google translate:
https://twizyblog.wordpress.com/2012/07/09/limiti-di-circola...
https://microlino-car.com/en/microlino
Notably states "this is not a car" about half way down.
And additionally it says "THE IDEAL MIX BETWEEN MOTORBIKE AND CAR."
From the FAQ's:
What number plate do I need for my Microlino?
The Microlino is an L7e vehicle and therefore requires the same format as a motorcycle.
Though it seems "borderline" with weight, I seem to remember that - unless there is some new norm/exception for electric vehicles - the limit is 450 Kg (which is what the Twizy weights):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Twizy
The Microlino is seemingly produced by Tazzari in Italy (they make other smallish electric vehicles):
https://www.tazzari-zero.com/gamma-citycar-elettriche/
Maybe I'm wrong, though. It's just that... coming from public transit-only life (I've only started driving very recently), what I really value about cars is that when you need you can just sit down and drive whenever and wherever you need.
The infrastructure is more of a challenge in the US due to your 110v system - most British garages already have 3kW sockets and the unsubsidised cost of a 7kW charger installation is typically less than $1,000.
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/government-grants-...
People are willing to pay a premium to know for certain that something is available for them to use on a whim, even if they would never do so.
There’s something about the increased flexibility and redundancy afforded by long range capability.
this is actually closer to why I would want a car with a longer range. I realize I could just rent something if I need to drive a longer distance, but I like my car and it wouldn't be there when I arrived.
I might need this kayak, so it'll take up space in my life as I move it from apartment to condo to home for the next 20 years. Storage units are full of these mistakes.
I think some EV manufacturers (Fiat?) tried to alleviate this by offering rental cars for a certain number of days per year to people who bought their cars.
(that said after driving an electric car renting a gas car seems sort of like copping out - silly strategy)
If you meant "they should rent high range bigger battery stack cars" I agree. The heinous cost of owning huge kWh battery for occasional use is silly. But fits MAKE ice cars so a cheap coverage for range is rental of an ice for the agency doing this model.
I thought like this in the beginning, and there's a fallacy in there.
Think not about huge kwh battery, think of (range of a battery in miles) * (battery cycles)
That gives you the projected car mileage.
First generation evs from other manufacturers with ~20kwh batteries will have to replace their battery in just a few years. They might cycle their battery once a day while a tesla might be once a week or more. Many many leafs got new batteries after their range decreased significantly 50% within 5 years.
I really wish hydrogen-electric or EVs with an on-board generator caught on. Having a city-only car is a waste of time when you don't commute, or if you commute with public transit (which I did when living in the suburbs anyway).
I've owned a Leaf for eight years, and it was worth a read. The first half, if you already own an EV, is blah, blah, blah. But there were some good insights in the second half, including that you might not need a Level 2 charger in your garage, a (US 120V) Level 1 might do. I will say that one might be capable of installing a 240V outlet oneself and save $2000.
But most insightful were the observations of how the whole system is "rigged" (for lack of a better word) for ICEs. A lot of the poo-pooing of EVs would go away if we didn't build a system that assumes one will plop their ass in a emissions-spewing two-ton wheelchair to go get a quart of milk.
It took us fifteen minutes (excluding the run to home depot for the socket, breaker, wire and a steel pipe) to run a new 240v socket from our electrical panel in the garage to a few feet away from it. I can't imagine ever spending $2000 on the installation of a single 240V socket right next to the panel.
You can’t? Here, I’ll throw you a softball: service panel upgrade because your 6Kw charger is way more than your 1960s house can handle.
Most common case, of course, is run a piece of conduit from panel, some wiring and a plug, sorted in 30 minutes. But not everyone.
[ Also, presumably Americans do have electric ovens right? So your ovens can't be 120 volts at 15 amps, that'd be like a kid's toy, there must be beefier power inside a typical American house already, albeit maybe not near the car? ]
The only reason I still got a level 2 chargers at home was because I have doubts a level 1 will be enough to charge in the colder months of winter.
I commute 75-90 miles per day depending on the route I use. There are no chargers at work (which is a military installation). The Leaf is technically rated at 95 miles range, but I am getting 120 out of it. However, the Level 1 charging wasn’t going to cut it. I would fully charge the car over the weekend, but I’d never quite get back to full during the week, and would have to track down a DC fast charger on Thursday. Which are quite expensive, actually; the cost is equivalent to the amount gasoline would cost for the same number of miles you get. Installed a Level 2 charger (for $2000) and since then there’s been no problem.
I do have other vehicles, but given how much less expensive the Leaf is to drive than my previous ride (a Honda Fit) if I didn’t it would absolutely make financial sense to rent a car the five or six times a year I make road trips. The car is so inexpensive to drive that it actually makes more sense for us to park my wife’s fully paid off F150 and get her a Leaf as well. The amount we’re spending on gas and repairs on the truck is more than the monthly payment on the car loan for the Leaf plus the electricity.
The Leaf costs me $30 a month in electrons.
‡ And likewise an electric pump and a turbine are the same thing in opposite directions. At Dinorwig, for example, the pumped storage facility, when water flows down it drives a bunch of huge turbines to make electricity for peak usage and when they have spare electricity to store those same machines function as pumps to move the water back up to the top lake.
Prius has a well-earned reputation for never needing brake pads. Regeneration takes the brunt of every stop, the physical brakes are just the final part.
I bought a used Prius for my son, it's been a great vehicle.
On the other hand, he probably was pretty dependent on fast charging.
Wait until his current battery dies, and he has to get a new one.
For Tesla, it's close to 10k-12 or more.
My next car in another 10 - 15 years will definitely be electric.
(Sorry; it was there for the taking. Also, downsized from 2 cars to 1+bicycle.).
Repairs for us average $2000 a year. Trucks are expensive to repair. We've had it for two years. It has needed a catalytic converter, a new belt, a new brake caliper, and it probably right now needs a head gasket. It's losing oil.
Cost of my Leaf loan payment is $250 a month. Plus $30 in gas, for a total of $280.
(There's a further analogy to be made here with smartphones and autonomous ride sharing EVs)
But yes most people will work on it for their own, but shy away from 400V outlets.
I've used 400V outlets, as they're the standard outlet in a European datacentre (for the UPS or PDU). Most people don't use them, and can be a bit uncomfortable even touching them.
I can understand Americans also being fairly unfamiliar with a 240V outlet, taking more care with it, and preferring to employ a professional to install one.
Well, that's a comfort.
I think these electricians hear "EV" and think the person asking for the work has a ton of cash.
$2000 might be justified if they needed to replace the main breaker box because the house was older or they were putting in a higher amp outlet.
I've only used a public charger once and that was the first day owning it since the charger at the dealer wasn't working right.
I'd say it's more like recommending to buy stock in something you're already invested in. "Hey, the stock is going up, but it will go much higher if you (and your friends) buy it too!"
The more people buy/use EV the better the infrastructure around us, the better the market, prices and models to choose from. And better for the environment. Besides, trust me, driving an EV feels like "the future", if you're into that kind of thing.
My wife and I have invested in a PHEV vehicle, a Kia Niro (55km e-range, plus a ~40L gas tank), for the next 5 years (a lease) and we put a charger in our front door. We live in a townhouse with no garage but we park it on the street in front. She drives it everyday 45km to-from work and it works great, 98% of the time all-electric except for the long range roadtrips where the gas kicks in. Still, the Niro is a quite efficient hybrid when the battery runs out. We are saving about 1500€/year on gas compared to her previous tiny compact car.
I live in one of those dense cities (Paris), with bike lanes and good public transportation, with several micromobile electric transportation offerings, and it's great! For most people living there, buying a car just wouldn't cross their mind. Parking is hard to find, stupidely expensive (as it should be), roads are congested, and shrinking (thanks to our mayor actions), and cars upkeep is prohibitive.
Most people do take public transportation to vacations as well. I'm in the minority, borrowing (I'd loan otherwise) an ICE vehicle for holidays, and I'm very happy with that.
While some people think EV are the second coming of cars, I'm starting to question their ecological benefits. Sure, they aren't burning fossil fuels to move every single day. But they still need batteries, in high quantities, for which the current method of production isn't exactly ecological. Plus they need lots of metal/plastics. Not ecological. Then you still need roads and those roads maintenance. Not ecological as well.
While I love EV for their low pollution and low noise, I still think we should probably focus on not using cars in the first place unless there really isn't any other choice.
Most people where? We're in the US. Weekends frequently include short road trips, up to 150 miles each way. I've put 30,000 miles on my M3, with 325 mile range, usually gets me there and back without charging. And even for daily commuting, once in a while I forget to plug it in when I get home. The range means 'no penalty' as I can get there and back 2x on one full charge.
Anyway, for those who love to drive and like to roam on weekends, a 135 mile range would kind of suck.
My question to you is - how often do you drive for three hours without stopping? Either for going to the toilet, or just to stretch your leg. I occasionally drive > 200 miles in the UK. Literally every motorway service station here has a rapid charger (50kW+) which will fill your battery in 30 minutes.
However, as a real example, I'll drive from San Jose to Healdsburg on a day trip. That is 114 miles each way and I can make the round trip without charging at all. I pay 12 cents/KWh at home. 26 cents at a super charger. With 325 mile range, I get the savings and no anxiety about finding a charger and then finding something to do for 30 minutes. I could likely optimize it by trying to find a charger near an eatery or place of interest, but it's nice to not have that additional thought and research process. Just determine it's within easy round trip range and forget about it.