Why?????? I've just recently rewatched the entire trilogy and it ends in a perfect way. Trinity and Neo both die for the cause, the ending feels meaningful and powerful. And now...they are back?
Like....I'm sure there could be more stories worth telling in that universe. Maybe about how the new peace with the machines is going. But bringing Trinity and Neo back seems like....a huge mistake. Of course it's impossible to judge a movie until we see it, but I don't have a good feeling about this.
I agree, you would definitely be going against canon there. They both clearly died, and a "prequel" to Reloaded would feature Neo and Trinity almost 20 years older than when Reloaded was filmed.
I would really hate for them both to have been miraculously "saved" for the sake of a sequel.
edit: If they decided to pull a Disney/Star Wars thing, just break canon, and pretend the original sequels never happened, I would be OK with that though. Although Neo's relationship with Smith was a central focal point of the story, not sure what they would do if Hugo Weaving weren't a part of it.
I mean, it's the original writer coming back. They cannot break or go against canon since whatever they write is canon.
Also, before this was announced there was a push for a prequel staring Michael B. Jordan as a young Morpheus. I like the Morpheus character and Michael B. Jordan, but I would need some convincing to give a damn about any kind of Matrix prequel.
Didn't they do a number of short-pieces in various styles in Animatrix? That was interesting enough (for at least some of them, and a few tied into the video game "Enter the Matrix"). I don't know why they would extend the franchise to a major sequel after killing or neutering all of the main characters.
It reminds me of the Spider-Man 4 news I just heard, with the 44 year old Toby McGuire, because Disney and Sony couldn't come to terms on the MCU license rights.
Maybe everyone should think about developing new content. This is starting to get tiring. (Although I did enjoy Abrams' first Star Trek reboot).
Hollywood investors are some of the most risk-averse types ever. If it pays x% return fairly predictably, they're going to keep making the same things over and over until it doesn't. For example, I also saw today that yet another Rambo movie is about to be released. Forty years of profits, can't argue with that!
I don't think there's many from that crowd who invest in tech startups.
That makes sense. Especially since these blockbusters have all gotten so capital intensive!
> I don't think there's many from that crowd who invest in tech startups.
I meet a fair number of LA types that want to invest in SV types, and that is a portfolio play (one win can cover 9 losses), but they appear to at least "want to play" with the people who make outragous returns off minimal up-front (think: the leverage of instagram at point of purchase -- it's romantic! that's the stuff of gold-rushes right there)
Gaaaah!! Perhaps there aren't many of us out there, but I've only seen the first film. The sentence would've been just fine without the spoiler. But perhaps I should thank you instead; you've just saved me several hours of viewing ;-)
Which means there's another entire generation of people who might not yet have enjoyed a sci-fi classic.
Not long ago, I witnessed someone totally spoil the big reveal in The Empire Strikes Back right next to a family whose kids, at it turned out moments later, were obviously watching the movies for the first time and didn't know. Now they're never going to have this moment [with spoiler, obviously]:
I recently rented a theater and licensed a copy of The Matrix to throw a 20th anniversary party, invited enough people to fill the theater and enjoyed it again as it was intended to be seen, on the big screen. Still holds up spectacularly, still worthy of the sci-fi classic label, and I'm glad to say some in my audience had indeed never seen it before!
The big outs I can think of are: (a) prequel and (b) there are other reasons to appear rather than being alive.
One potentially interesting idea: what if machines OR humans tried to revive Neo or Trinity, a la something like the "partials" of some people (especially Korzenowski) in Greg Bear's _Eternity_, or the Dixie Flatline in Gibson's _Neuromancer_?
>>Trinity and Neo both die for the cause, the ending feels meaningful and powerful. And now...they are back?
Their physical bodies died. This is a world where strong AI and beyond has been achieved. The AI machines are basically immortal. You could easily create a plot where the machines scanned and digitized their consciousness.
Given that the machines know how to connect a body to a VR environment they probably already know how to digitize the human brain. They probably learned how to do it when they were doing experiments on human beings to find their weaknesses.
Remember that there are multiple competing AI agents. It could have been one of those AI agents sympathetic to the humans that brought them back.
Also they may have never fully made it out of the top level simulation, and are still alive. The architect talked about how the matrix has gone through several iterations and that there is a neo in each one right? Perhaps Neo and Trinity have been software all along.
I thought the architect was having a problem dealing with anomalies surrounding free will or “choice”, not the lack of understanding for love or hope...but maybe I missed something.
He did say that the machines had destroyed Zion 5 times already though, or something like that. Maybe that’s where movie 4 will expand.
The Architect - It is interesting reading your reactions. Your five predecessors were by design based on a similar predication, a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the one. While the others experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more specific. Vis-a-vis, love.
Images of Trinity fighting the agent from Neo's dream appear on the monitors
Neo - Trinity.
The Architect - Apropos, she entered the matrix to save your life at the cost of her own.
Neo - No!
The Architect - Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed, and the anomaly revealed as both beginning, and end. There are two doors. The door to your right leads to the source, and the salvation of Zion. The door to the left leads back to the matrix, to her, and to the end of your species. As you adequately put, the problem is choice. But we already know what you're going to do, don't we? Already I can see the chain reaction, the chemical precursors that signal the onset of emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm logic, and reason. An emotion that is already blinding you from the simple, and obvious truth: she is going to die, and there is nothing that you can do to stop it.
The problem isn't with how to explain it in the in-world lore. The solution you are suggesting would obviously work perfectly fine with what we know from the movies already.
The problem is with the fact that the finality of Trinity's and Neo's sacrifices is an extremely powerful storytelling device. By bringing those characters back, even as AI simulated versions of themselves(so still "technically" leaving the original characters dead), it cheapens the ending of Revolutions.
I strongly suspect there will be CG de-aging of the two main cast members. The rumors are indicating that another actor may be cast as a younger Morpheus, so it could be a prequel.
Well, maybe they finally figured out that your physical body doesn't have to die with your mental form being punched in virtual reality, and that the _REVERSE_ is also true. If Smith can proliferate in the matrix with a mind of its own, no reason a human can't. The biggest problem might have been that ... the actors aged.
Not sure how 20-year-older Neo and Trinity would work with canon, but I'd welcome a reboot if Wachowskis are allowed full creative control. WB wanting more action was a big part of what killed the quality of the original sequels.
While the film may be guilty of taking itself too seriously, that's a small flaw in contrast to its bold vision. It's a very ambitious work, and I count it among my favorite films of all time.
The plot of The Matrix was supposedly originally based on the humans’ brains used as the hardware substrate for running the computers’ programs – if you like, human brains as CPUs – explaining why the computers needed to keep humans alive in tanks but in a dream-like state.
This was deemed to confusing for audiences to understand, so the story was changed so that humans became the power source for the machines. Since humans take in a lot more energy (food) than they produce as heat (or “bioelectric power”), this makes zero sense. In a future world driven by physics as we understand it, the machines would be better off killing all the humans and using some other power source.
The brains-as-CPUs version of the story is both physically plausible and a lot more interesting than the humans-as-batteries version. So some Matrix fans maintain that this is what was happening in the movie, with the human battery explanation just Morpheus’s misunderstanding.
The battery thing was supposed to be something else in the beginning.
They wanted to go for the idea that machines were harvesting our conciousnesses as a collective VM to run the matrix on, but thought the idea was to complex for the audience to understand so they went for the battery instead.
Ironically, the VM thing makes way more sense than the battery one.
Matrix off topic for HN? Ok I agree it’s a movie, but we’re talking about “The Matrix” here and not titanic, avengers or any other movie. Some of us don’t visit entertainment/gossip sites or watch TV, so having one post informing us about a new matrix movie is not off topic (especially with the crap posts we regularly read).
Apart from that, major pop culture is off topic here except when there's something exceptional (i.e. unusually intellectually interesting) about the article, which is certainly not the case with this one.
I just wanted to add that I was actually really excited to see this here, and it's the first I've heard of it. The conversation it generated was pretty good, too. It felt pertinent to our industry.
That said, I understand the black and whiteness of rules so that there is no mistaking what is appropriate for HN.
The Matrix is far beyond 'pop culture' at this point. It was made before my time and I still watched it specifically to get a perspective on modern social commentary. The impact of The Matrix on society has been monumental and it isn't something that should be so easily discarded.
I hope Matrix 4 explores how Neo expresses disgust with humanity, as in, becoming more like Smith, and Trinity now kills him.
Anything that continues the saga with a goody-two-shoes Neo at this stage is... boring. He's too powerful not to be a villain?
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[ 2.9 ms ] story [ 114 ms ] threadLike....I'm sure there could be more stories worth telling in that universe. Maybe about how the new peace with the machines is going. But bringing Trinity and Neo back seems like....a huge mistake. Of course it's impossible to judge a movie until we see it, but I don't have a good feeling about this.
I would really hate for them both to have been miraculously "saved" for the sake of a sequel.
edit: If they decided to pull a Disney/Star Wars thing, just break canon, and pretend the original sequels never happened, I would be OK with that though. Although Neo's relationship with Smith was a central focal point of the story, not sure what they would do if Hugo Weaving weren't a part of it.
Also, before this was announced there was a push for a prequel staring Michael B. Jordan as a young Morpheus. I like the Morpheus character and Michael B. Jordan, but I would need some convincing to give a damn about any kind of Matrix prequel.
It reminds me of the Spider-Man 4 news I just heard, with the 44 year old Toby McGuire, because Disney and Sony couldn't come to terms on the MCU license rights.
Maybe everyone should think about developing new content. This is starting to get tiring. (Although I did enjoy Abrams' first Star Trek reboot).
I don't think there's many from that crowd who invest in tech startups.
> I don't think there's many from that crowd who invest in tech startups.
I meet a fair number of LA types that want to invest in SV types, and that is a portfolio play (one win can cover 9 losses), but they appear to at least "want to play" with the people who make outragous returns off minimal up-front (think: the leverage of instagram at point of purchase -- it's romantic! that's the stuff of gold-rushes right there)
Not long ago, I witnessed someone totally spoil the big reveal in The Empire Strikes Back right next to a family whose kids, at it turned out moments later, were obviously watching the movies for the first time and didn't know. Now they're never going to have this moment [with spoiler, obviously]:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbV5hn_ET0U
Moooooooney.
The big outs I can think of are: (a) prequel and (b) there are other reasons to appear rather than being alive.
One potentially interesting idea: what if machines OR humans tried to revive Neo or Trinity, a la something like the "partials" of some people (especially Korzenowski) in Greg Bear's _Eternity_, or the Dixie Flatline in Gibson's _Neuromancer_?
Their physical bodies died. This is a world where strong AI and beyond has been achieved. The AI machines are basically immortal. You could easily create a plot where the machines scanned and digitized their consciousness.
Given that the machines know how to connect a body to a VR environment they probably already know how to digitize the human brain. They probably learned how to do it when they were doing experiments on human beings to find their weaknesses.
Remember that there are multiple competing AI agents. It could have been one of those AI agents sympathetic to the humans that brought them back.
He did say that the machines had destroyed Zion 5 times already though, or something like that. Maybe that’s where movie 4 will expand.
From http://www.leesmovieinfo.net/special/MatrixReloadedSpeech1.p...:
The Architect - It is interesting reading your reactions. Your five predecessors were by design based on a similar predication, a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the one. While the others experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more specific. Vis-a-vis, love.
Images of Trinity fighting the agent from Neo's dream appear on the monitors
Neo - Trinity.
The Architect - Apropos, she entered the matrix to save your life at the cost of her own.
Neo - No!
The Architect - Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed, and the anomaly revealed as both beginning, and end. There are two doors. The door to your right leads to the source, and the salvation of Zion. The door to the left leads back to the matrix, to her, and to the end of your species. As you adequately put, the problem is choice. But we already know what you're going to do, don't we? Already I can see the chain reaction, the chemical precursors that signal the onset of emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm logic, and reason. An emotion that is already blinding you from the simple, and obvious truth: she is going to die, and there is nothing that you can do to stop it.
The problem is with the fact that the finality of Trinity's and Neo's sacrifices is an extremely powerful storytelling device. By bringing those characters back, even as AI simulated versions of themselves(so still "technically" leaving the original characters dead), it cheapens the ending of Revolutions.
and I wouldnt say that Cloud Atlas qualifies as "... not good film"
While the film may be guilty of taking itself too seriously, that's a small flaw in contrast to its bold vision. It's a very ambitious work, and I count it among my favorite films of all time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWnAqFyaQ5s
This was deemed to confusing for audiences to understand, so the story was changed so that humans became the power source for the machines. Since humans take in a lot more energy (food) than they produce as heat (or “bioelectric power”), this makes zero sense. In a future world driven by physics as we understand it, the machines would be better off killing all the humans and using some other power source.
The brains-as-CPUs version of the story is both physically plausible and a lot more interesting than the humans-as-batteries version. So some Matrix fans maintain that this is what was happening in the movie, with the human battery explanation just Morpheus’s misunderstanding.
They wanted to go for the idea that machines were harvesting our conciousnesses as a collective VM to run the matrix on, but thought the idea was to complex for the audience to understand so they went for the battery instead.
Ironically, the VM thing makes way more sense than the battery one.
(Go easy downvoters.)
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Apart from that, major pop culture is off topic here except when there's something exceptional (i.e. unusually intellectually interesting) about the article, which is certainly not the case with this one.
That said, I understand the black and whiteness of rules so that there is no mistaking what is appropriate for HN.