Ignoring the issues with safe operation of touchscreens while driving, buttons and dials are just far more tactile and fun to use than a touchscreen. In something like a car aimed at visceral driver experience rather than practicality it makes even less sense. I want to feel like a fighter pilot while driving a Porsche, not like I am installing an email app on an ipad.
No I haven't, I have heard that it's touchscreen provides a pretty good experience. Looking at the Porsche interior, I am doubting it could compare to the Tesla. Not enough real estate in easily visible screens. The biggest is down by your arm.
There is no touch screen that could emulate the satisfaction of flipping a good toggle switch though.
I agree with you, I think Porsche’s approach is terrible. I just like to ask about the Model 3 because usually when I hear touch screens won’t beat buttons, it’s from someone who hasn’t test driven a Model 3.
And I say this because I thought exactly the same thing before I experienced it. Similar to how I thought I’d never enjoy a full touchscreen phone and that it’d never beat physical keys until alas I actually tried the iPhone. Tesla’s UX is really really good. And almost everyone has a change of heart when it’s actually in front of them.
I recommend you at least give it a go if you’re interested.
I never tried a Model 3, but I test-drove a Model S, and I was pleasantly surprised by the touch screen and controls. They are - by far - the best in the auto industry.
But they're still not as good as physical buttons, because they are impossible to control without looking at them.
Having a great touch screen does not rule out also having great buttons.
I don't know how long your test drive was but you may have missed that there are plenty of physical controls in the S, including buttons, that cover most functionality.
I also thought that about phone touchscreens. And although the extra screen real estate is useful for reading, I do miss the physical keys of the Blackberry. I could type so much more accurately (and therefore more quickly) on them.
Haven't tried a Tesla but I have tried the recent Porsche controls and I preferred the old ones to be honest. My experience with car controls is that the nearer the steering wheel (preferably on the wheel) the better and the more tactile the better.
I still miss my BlackBerry Bold. Typing on a touchscreen is awful and almost impossible to do without looking at the screen.
There are pros and cons to touchscreens. For phones, I can see someone preferring the larger screen to physical buttons. I'm not one of those people, but I can understand it.
What are the pros in a car that outweigh the cons? Looking at your fingers while you fiddle with a phone is annoying. Looking at them while you drive a car is incredibly dangerous.
What you don't seem to realize is that during actual driving, you don't need to use the touch screen at all. Every meaningful, required interaction with the car (except arguably wiper speed setting I guess) is controlled with physical controls
The 3 has a brake pedal, gas pedal, steering wheel, two 4-way physical switch/dials on the steering wheel front, a stalk on the left and a stalk on the right. On the left stalk you can lever it up down forward and back. On the right stalk just up and down. But stalks have two positions for levering in each up and down direction. Finally, each stalk has a button at the end.
To engage drive mode (P, D, N, R) you use the right stalk by either lifting or pulling down for D or R, partially lifting or pulling down and holding it there for N, pressing the button at the end for P.
On the left, you use it for signalling like normally. Partial levering signals 3 clicks, full levering signals continuously like normal. Pressing the button at the end partially activates the wipers, pressing fully and holding activates the fluid and wiper action. Levering away from the driver toggles high beam mode, levering towards and holding forces high beams on.
The front 4-ways, the left one generally controls volume and track selection of the music while the right one controls driving settings relevant to the autopilot/TACC features. Specifically, clicking left/right adjusts the follow distance and rolling up or down controls the set target speed.
As for mentioning the pedals it's because 1) single-pedal driving is a big thing with tesla drivers due to the strength of the regenerative braking, so your throttle has more impact on your driving than a classic pedal. Feels a bit like a combo clutch/throttle if you're experienced with manual cars. And the brake pedal has a dual purpose. When at a full stop, pressing it firmly activates "hold" mode which is basically and automatic parking brake. Pressing it firmly releases it allowing your vehicle to roll freely. Not quite like N drive mode because regenerative braking still happens.
Anyway, long description I know. But the point is, everything relevant to driving is a physical control. During driving, the only thing I find myself going to the touch screen for that could possibly be "nicer" on the stalk is the wiper settings which I generally just leave on "Auto" anyway. This setting is made visible if you manually activate the wiper and is very close to the steering wheel. very easy to use.
All other driving related things on the touch screen are things you use when not actively driving, unless you're some weirdo who wants to switch their lights on and off manually or something, idk.
The UX of the Model 3 is impeccable.
Edit: forgot to note, the 4-way controls on the steering wheel also click in, so left side is going to pause/play with that. And honestly off the top of my head I can't remember what clicking the right one does.
I totally agree that when you are driving you should be driving and nothing else. Even fidling with the radio is dangerous. However the vast, vast majority of people do fiddle with stuff. We can't even get enough people to stop using their phones to keep it from being a fatal epidemic. So if it is present, people are going to use it, and because it's geared highly toward usability while driving you can forgive them for thinking it should be fine because clearly the manufacturer thinks it is.
If it’s convenience you’re after, I’d rank touch screens by themselves at the bottom, but that’s not what the Model 3 has.
Driver side dash as you call it I would rank in the middle for convenience. There is also some convenience in having certain controls like sound and climate accessible by the front passenger, so most are driver side plus middle, but I’m accounting for that in my ranking. Even with that, still in the middle.
At the top of the convenience scale would be a hybrid system with minimal multi-axis, multi-function buttons situated on or around the steering wheel, augmented by a touch screen for rarely used features. And for display. A screen that is not blocked by the steering wheel no matter what your height. And a screen robustly mounted so you can rest your hand on it while making selections, so any road shaking is mitigated. A screen big enough to read easily. A screen that never needs to be interacted with for most driving functions with the exception of tweaking the way the car is currently doing autopilot when it is. And a screen that lets a front passenger reach controls that are safe and useful for the passenger to use. That is the kind of system the Model 3 has. Not just a touch screen.
If it’s convenience you’re after, driver side dash may be more convenient than your perception of the Tesla. But your perception is wrong, based just on what you have just said.
I recommend to everyone that they test drive a Model 3 in order to feel how it drives, and feel how tight the control is, the driver’s connection between the wheel and the road. I don’t know how long your test drive was, but a test drive is generally too short to understand the full functionality of the easily accessible steering wheel multi-axis button controls and how driving works day to day in all situations.
The i3 does have a center display, but that’s mostly for the infotainment system. The traditional dashboard functions are where you’d expect, right in front of the driver.
Not a Porsche driver, but I read about the Panamera's interior that the buttons look like touch screens but somehow do have a tactile feel about it. Maybe someone familiar with recent Porsche interiors can tell us more.
I would worry more about cleaning all that shiny aurface area all the time.
They're "touch surfaces" (fancy speak for capacitive buttons) and they're every bit as tactile as a touchscreen. Which is not at all. The second you try to feel your way across any control surface you'll just randomly trigger all the functions you drag your fingers across without receiving any useful feedback. You have to look at the buttons before pressing.
They do still have a handful of buttons for commonly used functions on the center console/steering wheel (temperature, sound volume, parking brake, menu navigation) but everything else falls on the touchscreen or capacitive buttons.
Or voice control. As long as the voice control works well then it's a good way to adjust settings while keeping your eyes on the road and your hands on the wheel.
I guess voice control could do the trick with respect to letting you keep your eyes on the road. Personally I still prefer having a critical subset of controls firmly into the physical buttons camp. If current experience with voice assistants is any indication between making yourself understood in the surrounding noise and having to repeat the hotword for any command it can get pretty annoying. Still much better than fiddling with a touchscreen while driving.
Surely it will have an effect on longevity/resale value as well, which I think is more important for luxury vehicles (they stay in use for decades). My buildings "smart" (annoying, aggravating, retarded) lifts all have touchscreens to select the floor and 2 years in they're failing miserably, earlier today it took my 4 attempts to correctly input a 2 digit number. It's bad enough there's no tactile feedback, imagine in a few years when these touchscreens start failing and there are people trying to debug faulty screens while they're driving.
If you can get to an aviation museum that lets you inside a fighter plane cockpit the variety of buttons and levers is a real delight. Because they’re designed for a pilot who might be flying supersonic inverted with a Russkie on his 6 every single switch is of a slightly different position or type so they can be distinguished by feel. Dieter Rams would barf but the functionality is perfect.
Also, sitting in a fighter plane cockpit will make you realize how cramped and uncomfortable it is. Not nearly as glamorous as the movies make it seem.
Huh? Dieter Rams would be fine with traditional aircraft cockpit controls. His work was strongly supportive of the notion that form should follow function.
On a more global perspective, technology in cars is by default going to be obsolete in a matter of a generation. German cars built 10/15 years ago, when they came out, had these 4" screen and in-vehichle phone capabilities. Nowadays, you would like to rip off that crap out of cars which are still capable of "being just cars".
Porsche sells sports cars without driver assistance and with manual transmission to young US-American people who are using it to learn to drive. I think it's safe to say that passenger safety or safety of the general public is not a mission critical topic for Porsche.
I do not understand this comment? I do not know many young adults learning to drive that can afford or are gifted the cars you are talking about. Oh, that it is not Porsche job to make the rules on who they can sell a dang car to.
Also what is wrong with a manual transmission? The whole world learned to drive on it at one point. Heck if you go to rent a car in most of the EU it cost extra for an automatic to this day!
In my family we have 2 Porsches. My daughter is learning to drive. We grabbed a friends typical car and took her out into a very big uncrowned area to teach her. She will not be driving our cars as we will lease something very safe and normal.
I believe it still has a steering wheel. And pedals. Which are the main things you need for a visceral driver experience. For knobs and dials there's always, I don't know, ham radio. When I'm driving, I just want to drive. Or, sometimes, be driven.
There can be more to it, that doesn't also detract from it. In a track oriented car, there can be switches and dials to manage things like cooling, fueling, brake bias, boost levels, suspension stiffness and setup, and so on. This car likely has all that stuff, except fueling and boost levels of course, but if it's all accessed from a touchscreen, in my opinion that detracts from the experience.
Yeah I see what you mean. I guess for everyday driving I don't miss toggle switches and I still have plenty of fancy physical multi-axis spinning clicking rocking buttons to play with (in the Model 3). I like the overall experience a lot and I bet you would too ;-) as most people who like driving do when they try the car.
Very much out of my price range but it’s become clear to me now that the make or break feature for my next car will be whether or not it has Apple CarPlay or not.
Wow, they took the touchscreen and added like, four more. Not surprised, because electrics cars ought to have them (!), but also surprised given the recent decision by Mazda to exclude them from future vehicles.
I am a huge fan of knobs I can feel without looking to see if I got the right part of the smooth glass surface.
“The elevated center console stretches down from the horizontal central screen to two air vents that are not the mechanically operated louvres found in most vehicles today. Instead, the direction of the airflow is controlled digitally via an 8.4-inch touch panel located just below the central screen. This touch panel houses the climate control system and includes a track pad with haptic feedback.”
Way to make something perfectly simple and reliable for the last 50 years in to a pile of hot garbage.
It needs to be said that car makers still manage to fuck up dials when leaving them in (as digital) e.g. I was watching a car review yesterday, the "driving mode" selector was a clicky 5-position dial (so far so good). It wouldn't "cycle around", from the center point (normal driving) you could go two ticks to the left or two ticks to the right, but not "through" to the bottom. However the dial would keep turning, that turning just wouldn't do anything until you started turning the other way.
An other such experience was the same driving mode selection idea on an other car I rented a few months back, one of the modes would (I guess) only be available when stopped. However it would not tell you that. The dial would still stop every 1/5th of a turn, but instead of selecting the next mode it would select the one after that, moving the selector 1/5th ahead of the dial every turn with no idea why the 2 stops you felt had moved the selector ahead 3 places (and to the wrong mode).
Cars have long product cycles. They might be kicking themselves for going all in on something so obviously(•) dumb, but they have to pretend to be proud of it and sell it now... It's kind of funny really. More likely, they haven't noticed the problem yet but they will, later.
(•) Obvious to people who can think while the fashion is current, obvious to everyone later
I have always found the juxtaposition a bit funny. Car manufacturers spend years engineering the latest release in a lineage of top of class design and performance vehicles. Machines that are a true marvel of engineering. In this case, a revolution in performance vehicles. But the big news is whether or not it has a particular app.
The 1989 Buick Reatta had a CRT touchscreen computer to replace the knobs for A/C, fan speed, radio and stuff. It added no value to the experience, was prone to malfunctioning and, subsequently, wasn't very popular. (More: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_Reatta)
Form will always follow function to some extent. I'm not saying screens are inherently a bad thing in cars, but screens that mimic a physical button instead of, well, physical buttons? That's just stupid.
I found it interesting that the HUD didn't take off until recently. HUDs where available in consumer grade cars in the 80s, but fell out of fashion the next year mode of cars.
Everything is easier on a large display: navigation, browsing through music/podcasts, changing settings. Speed and range are really the only "gauges" you need and take up very little real estate. Doesn't make much sense to have multiple small screens you have to glance around at. Just makes everything more difficult
I hate the trend in cars that there are no or few physical buttons. Tactile feedback is still important. It is so unsafe to take one's eyes off of the road. At least give me some function buttons and a joystick--my current car has that and I use it all the time.
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[ 4.6 ms ] story [ 123 ms ] threadIgnoring the issues with safe operation of touchscreens while driving, buttons and dials are just far more tactile and fun to use than a touchscreen. In something like a car aimed at visceral driver experience rather than practicality it makes even less sense. I want to feel like a fighter pilot while driving a Porsche, not like I am installing an email app on an ipad.
There is no touch screen that could emulate the satisfaction of flipping a good toggle switch though.
And I say this because I thought exactly the same thing before I experienced it. Similar to how I thought I’d never enjoy a full touchscreen phone and that it’d never beat physical keys until alas I actually tried the iPhone. Tesla’s UX is really really good. And almost everyone has a change of heart when it’s actually in front of them.
I recommend you at least give it a go if you’re interested.
But they're still not as good as physical buttons, because they are impossible to control without looking at them.
I don't know how long your test drive was but you may have missed that there are plenty of physical controls in the S, including buttons, that cover most functionality.
Haven't tried a Tesla but I have tried the recent Porsche controls and I preferred the old ones to be honest. My experience with car controls is that the nearer the steering wheel (preferably on the wheel) the better and the more tactile the better.
There are pros and cons to touchscreens. For phones, I can see someone preferring the larger screen to physical buttons. I'm not one of those people, but I can understand it.
What are the pros in a car that outweigh the cons? Looking at your fingers while you fiddle with a phone is annoying. Looking at them while you drive a car is incredibly dangerous.
The 3 has a brake pedal, gas pedal, steering wheel, two 4-way physical switch/dials on the steering wheel front, a stalk on the left and a stalk on the right. On the left stalk you can lever it up down forward and back. On the right stalk just up and down. But stalks have two positions for levering in each up and down direction. Finally, each stalk has a button at the end.
To engage drive mode (P, D, N, R) you use the right stalk by either lifting or pulling down for D or R, partially lifting or pulling down and holding it there for N, pressing the button at the end for P.
On the left, you use it for signalling like normally. Partial levering signals 3 clicks, full levering signals continuously like normal. Pressing the button at the end partially activates the wipers, pressing fully and holding activates the fluid and wiper action. Levering away from the driver toggles high beam mode, levering towards and holding forces high beams on.
The front 4-ways, the left one generally controls volume and track selection of the music while the right one controls driving settings relevant to the autopilot/TACC features. Specifically, clicking left/right adjusts the follow distance and rolling up or down controls the set target speed.
As for mentioning the pedals it's because 1) single-pedal driving is a big thing with tesla drivers due to the strength of the regenerative braking, so your throttle has more impact on your driving than a classic pedal. Feels a bit like a combo clutch/throttle if you're experienced with manual cars. And the brake pedal has a dual purpose. When at a full stop, pressing it firmly activates "hold" mode which is basically and automatic parking brake. Pressing it firmly releases it allowing your vehicle to roll freely. Not quite like N drive mode because regenerative braking still happens.
Anyway, long description I know. But the point is, everything relevant to driving is a physical control. During driving, the only thing I find myself going to the touch screen for that could possibly be "nicer" on the stalk is the wiper settings which I generally just leave on "Auto" anyway. This setting is made visible if you manually activate the wiper and is very close to the steering wheel. very easy to use.
All other driving related things on the touch screen are things you use when not actively driving, unless you're some weirdo who wants to switch their lights on and off manually or something, idk.
The UX of the Model 3 is impeccable.
Edit: forgot to note, the 4-way controls on the steering wheel also click in, so left side is going to pause/play with that. And honestly off the top of my head I can't remember what clicking the right one does.
Driver side dash as you call it I would rank in the middle for convenience. There is also some convenience in having certain controls like sound and climate accessible by the front passenger, so most are driver side plus middle, but I’m accounting for that in my ranking. Even with that, still in the middle.
At the top of the convenience scale would be a hybrid system with minimal multi-axis, multi-function buttons situated on or around the steering wheel, augmented by a touch screen for rarely used features. And for display. A screen that is not blocked by the steering wheel no matter what your height. And a screen robustly mounted so you can rest your hand on it while making selections, so any road shaking is mitigated. A screen big enough to read easily. A screen that never needs to be interacted with for most driving functions with the exception of tweaking the way the car is currently doing autopilot when it is. And a screen that lets a front passenger reach controls that are safe and useful for the passenger to use. That is the kind of system the Model 3 has. Not just a touch screen.
If it’s convenience you’re after, driver side dash may be more convenient than your perception of the Tesla. But your perception is wrong, based just on what you have just said.
I recommend to everyone that they test drive a Model 3 in order to feel how it drives, and feel how tight the control is, the driver’s connection between the wheel and the road. I don’t know how long your test drive was, but a test drive is generally too short to understand the full functionality of the easily accessible steering wheel multi-axis button controls and how driving works day to day in all situations.
https://imgur.com/gallery/mScDh1U
I would worry more about cleaning all that shiny aurface area all the time.
They do still have a handful of buttons for commonly used functions on the center console/steering wheel (temperature, sound volume, parking brake, menu navigation) but everything else falls on the touchscreen or capacitive buttons.
Also, sitting in a fighter plane cockpit will make you realize how cramped and uncomfortable it is. Not nearly as glamorous as the movies make it seem.
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/pictures/pagani-huayra-the-ste...
And, according to the text and pictures in the article, lots of buttons directly on the steering wheel, one which activates their voice input.
Also what is wrong with a manual transmission? The whole world learned to drive on it at one point. Heck if you go to rent a car in most of the EU it cost extra for an automatic to this day!
In my family we have 2 Porsches. My daughter is learning to drive. We grabbed a friends typical car and took her out into a very big uncrowned area to teach her. She will not be driving our cars as we will lease something very safe and normal.
Only fools would give a sports car to a teenager.
I believe it still has a steering wheel. And pedals. Which are the main things you need for a visceral driver experience. For knobs and dials there's always, I don't know, ham radio. When I'm driving, I just want to drive. Or, sometimes, be driven.
Years later we realize the mistake and go back again.
Very much out of my price range but it’s become clear to me now that the make or break feature for my next car will be whether or not it has Apple CarPlay or not.
“The elevated center console stretches down from the horizontal central screen to two air vents that are not the mechanically operated louvres found in most vehicles today. Instead, the direction of the airflow is controlled digitally via an 8.4-inch touch panel located just below the central screen. This touch panel houses the climate control system and includes a track pad with haptic feedback.”
Way to make something perfectly simple and reliable for the last 50 years in to a pile of hot garbage.
An other such experience was the same driving mode selection idea on an other car I rented a few months back, one of the modes would (I guess) only be available when stopped. However it would not tell you that. The dial would still stop every 1/5th of a turn, but instead of selecting the next mode it would select the one after that, moving the selector 1/5th ahead of the dial every turn with no idea why the 2 stops you felt had moved the selector ahead 3 places (and to the wrong mode).
(•) Obvious to people who can think while the fashion is current, obvious to everyone later
I didn’t know that. I disagree with my choice of car being linked to any specific music subscription service.
Form will always follow function to some extent. I'm not saying screens are inherently a bad thing in cars, but screens that mimic a physical button instead of, well, physical buttons? That's just stupid.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Buick+Reatta+touchscreen&t=ffcm&ia...
> The dark mode [...] should let drivers enjoy the road and escape the annoying “blue light” that emanates from so many vehicles these days.