I read Meadows's book and it felt a little too "woo" to me.
I mean, I sense there is something very valuable there, but past the initial sections, I somehow felt I was reading a New Age fluff book. I can't put my finger on it.
Could you recommend some 'systems-as-calculus-homework'(ha! great description) books as well? Thanks in advance.
Any engineering books on control theory and signal processing is systems theory using mathematics such as linear algebra, differential equations, etc. The reason why books like Meadow’s are so light on the math is that there is already a large body of works that use the mathematics. Books light on the math are meant to accessibly extend the philosophy to those who may feel they do not have the proper math background.
“Modern Control Theory” by Katsuhiko Ogata applies the theory to thermal systems, fluid systems, mechanical, electrical, etc.
“Discrete-Time Signal Processing” by Alan V. Oppenheim is a great book on its subject.
Both are related to analytical approaches to systems thinking.
Mathematics is definitely a weakness I feel acutely as I press up against the boundary between knowing-about and knowing-how-to-do.
I'd say the next book to read in a formal direction is Hartmut Bossel's Systems and Models, which happily dives into the calculus. Then, as my sibling comment explains, control theory, signal processing and information theory are major influences on various branches of systems thought (systems dynamics, cybernetics and so on).
That said, as Sterman points out, many interesting problems can't be solved analytically and require simulation in order to come up with useful approximations. Furthermore a page of sigils is comprehensible to relatively few people: a systems model is useful only insofar as people will believe its descriptive, predictive and prescriptive qualities. If they don't understand it, they won't trust it and will ultimately ignore it.
Systems dynamics and other simulation approaches (particularly discrete event simulation and agent-based modelling) are much easier to explain and verify qualitatively with subject-matter experts and end users.
Definitely read Sterman first, nobody else has such a thorough treatment of the field.
There's something... not quite right about loopy. I think it's just that it has inverters but not diodes?
You can see for example if you try to form an ecosystem with a Sun node feeding one or more plant nodes that feed herbivore nodes that feed carnivore nodes, with Death nodes that kill off living things.
Eventually once the thing is running smoothly you can just turn off the sun and turn up the death and somehow those plants will still be thriving, apparently because the death of the herbivores is the same as sunshine to the plants.
This means that loopy seems to have real trouble with describing dynamic equilibrium states...
A game I love playing is Democracy 3[1], I believe it's an excellent example and exercise of simulating democratic systems. There are so many toggles you can tweak, dozens of policies to enact, setting whatever budget you want for each policies. Maybe around ~50 different situations (think GDP to pollution to gang wars) all interconnected with each other, and a bunch of voting groups - every person belongs to several groups (religious, rural, commuter, socialist etc...)
As a newbie, it quickly becomes evident how difficult it is to make an overall positive change in the society - because most tweaks that would make something better by X% will make something else worse by Y% - and since everything is connected to everything that leads to chain reactions. More often than not I end up getting assassinated by the second term. :D
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[ 2.1 ms ] story [ 53.3 ms ] thread- Business Dynamics: Systems Thinking and Modeling for a Complex World (This is one I still want to really work through, it's very comprehensive)
-Drift into Failure
-Systems Thinking For Social Change
-The Fifth Discipline: The Art & Practice of The Learning Organization
https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Systems+Thinking%2C+Systems+Prac...
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19835208
I have a much larger set of resources. If others would be keen i could structure and categorize it and post it.
The original hardback is out of print and very expensive, but there are cheap international editions available now.
I read Meadows's book and it felt a little too "woo" to me. I mean, I sense there is something very valuable there, but past the initial sections, I somehow felt I was reading a New Age fluff book. I can't put my finger on it.
Could you recommend some 'systems-as-calculus-homework'(ha! great description) books as well? Thanks in advance.
“Modern Control Theory” by Katsuhiko Ogata applies the theory to thermal systems, fluid systems, mechanical, electrical, etc.
“Discrete-Time Signal Processing” by Alan V. Oppenheim is a great book on its subject.
Both are related to analytical approaches to systems thinking.
I'd say the next book to read in a formal direction is Hartmut Bossel's Systems and Models, which happily dives into the calculus. Then, as my sibling comment explains, control theory, signal processing and information theory are major influences on various branches of systems thought (systems dynamics, cybernetics and so on).
That said, as Sterman points out, many interesting problems can't be solved analytically and require simulation in order to come up with useful approximations. Furthermore a page of sigils is comprehensible to relatively few people: a systems model is useful only insofar as people will believe its descriptive, predictive and prescriptive qualities. If they don't understand it, they won't trust it and will ultimately ignore it.
Systems dynamics and other simulation approaches (particularly discrete event simulation and agent-based modelling) are much easier to explain and verify qualitatively with subject-matter experts and end users.
Definitely read Sterman first, nobody else has such a thorough treatment of the field.
Time to buy some books!
Many videos: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=donella+meadows&atb=v173-1&iax=vid...
Many Dennis Meadows (her husband) videos: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=dennis+meadows&atb=v173-1&iar=vide...
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13979188
You can see for example if you try to form an ecosystem with a Sun node feeding one or more plant nodes that feed herbivore nodes that feed carnivore nodes, with Death nodes that kill off living things.
Eventually once the thing is running smoothly you can just turn off the sun and turn up the death and somehow those plants will still be thriving, apparently because the death of the herbivores is the same as sunshine to the plants.
This means that loopy seems to have real trouble with describing dynamic equilibrium states...
As a newbie, it quickly becomes evident how difficult it is to make an overall positive change in the society - because most tweaks that would make something better by X% will make something else worse by Y% - and since everything is connected to everything that leads to chain reactions. More often than not I end up getting assassinated by the second term. :D
[1] http://positech.co.uk/democracy3/, https://store.steampowered.com/app/245470/Democracy_3/ on steam
Leverage Points: Places to Intervene in a System: http://donellameadows.org/archives/leverage-points-places-to...
Tools for Systems Thinkers: The 12 Recurring Systems Archetypes: https://medium.com/disruptive-design/tools-for-systems-think...
Cynefin framework: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynefin_framework
http://donellameadows.org/archives/leverage-points-places-to...