Tldr: He has MMA training. People who pretend they can fight using martial arts that have no full contact sparring or resisting opponents stand no chance.
Some have fooled themselves into thinking they can fight. They get their ass kicked and end up humiliated by their own delusion.
China is embarrassed that their traditional martial arts don't work for MMA or self defense.
I think the CCP angle is interesting because they want to project this image of 'perfection' in the rest of the world. The only problem is that almost everybody knows it's BS. So are the powers themselves ignorant of what the "West" thinks of them? What gives?
EDIT: I suppose I should add a little thing here for people who take the more practical angle: The point during these fights is that there's an idea (in how the announcers set it up) of Western vs. Eastern/Chinese. He's just demonstrating that there's 'it works' and 'ineffectual'. Aka: Science!
I think you are overestimating the percentage of the general population that understand that traditional martial arts are BS (with obvious exceptions such as Muay Thai).
A regular person with no previous martial arts training is easy prey for the "masters".
That's why these traditional martial arts gyms still exist.
I think the takeaway is not that "traditional martial arts are BS", but that the CCP cares only about appearances, and so has funded legions of false masters in an attempt to project cultural superiority, and this guy is calling them out on it.
It's a microcosm of their entire propaganda-state and the corruption that it's rife with. Even their finance reporting follows the same pattern.
somewhere on youtube, there's a clip of two grandmasters fighting in front of a large audience, in the 1950s I think? It's bw and terrible quality, but it's quite obvious that either one of them would've been whooped in a bar fight on Friday night
I don't think a high % of Chinese- or really any culture where MMA isn't big- know that their traditional martial arts are BS. It took a couple of decades here in the US for people to realize that TMAs are mostly nonsense.
From what I've heard, the CCP wants to preserve & promote traditional Chinese culture, which includes their native martial arts. They view MMA as a Western influence, so they want to keep it out
The UFC just had an event in Shenzhen in August. In fact a Chinese MMA fighter (Zhang Weili) beat the then current champion to become strawweight division champ.
I'm aware. In general the Party has not been very enthusiastic about MMA/western martial arts- they see it as a cultural influence thing. I agree that they're not outright banned
I hate to be cynical, but once you get a winner you're probably going to want to keep on winning, right...?
Btw, that's what I think the CCP is: Cynical to the utmost extreme. If they sense that the wind is changing they'll adapt. There are limits to how far they'll adapt, obviously[0], but for something like this (cultural heritage vs. whatever), I don't doubt they'll do it soonish. Except for pictures of Winnie the Pooh juxtaposed on the Leader's head. (I mean... how petty can you get?)
[0] Self-preservation would be a top-priority, I imagine. Maybe for the party, but not necessarily.
> It took a couple of decades here in the US for people to realize that TMAs are mostly nonsense.
How are they mostly nonsense? A typical case might be use in an unavoidable situation where some kind of defense is needed. Most people would probably want some kind of 'training' to be able to call on. That is if you can't walk away or avoid which would be the first choice. [1]
Most people are probably not training thinking they are going to fight a determined adversary in a real battle. Saying it is 'mostly nonsense' is the same as saying locks are of no value.
[1] That said I do think that training people for a night or a few lessons 'women learn how to defend yourself if attacked!' is for sure going to cause more harm than good very generally.
They are mostly nonsense for any real fighting because they aren't full contact and aren't practiced with a resisting opponent. Traditional martial arts don't accomplish the things you listed. We now know from MMA that the martial arts 'styles' that work boil down to complete striking and grappling with submissions. There aren't any Tai Chi or shoalin Kung Fu masters out there winning MMA fights, which is all this guy set out to prove.
"submissions" won't exist in that dark alley at 3am...
It's run away, die, kill, etc.
I don't think you got the correct message from the article (as outlined above: it was about exposing fraudulent "masters" and the incentivization of such fraudulent masters via the CCP.)
A 200 pound person trained in TMA who also may have experience in XYZ context (read: actual something or other, MMA, or otherwise.) will probably do as well as the same weight and experience person with an MMA background.
Complacency can also easily occur via an MMA background in confusing a streetfight for a match or sparring, as above.
Aka: there are varying dynamic levels, from mere formal demonstrations of "moves", to people trying them out on each other in real-time but with less than harmful intentions, to competitive yet still structure brawling (you don't break the guys neck to end an MMA match) to shouting drunk with occasional jabs or scuffles on a street corner in some prolonged stupid social interaction, to something escalating ultra-rapidly in an unarmed state, to armed combat resulting in an unexpected close-range hand-to-hand encounter (both of the latter perhaps ending in the death of one or another combatent)
try not to simplistically and chauvinistically reduce it to "TMA sux, MMA rox" which is silly to say.
> try not to simplistically and chauvinistically reduce it to "TMA sux, MMA rox" which is silly to say.
Show me where I said that.
> "submissions" won't exist in that dark alley at 3am... It's run away, die, kill, etc
If it wasn't already obvious from the rest of your message it's obvious from this that you have no MMA experience and are guessing at everything. In a dark alley against a single person the best possible outcome would be to get on top with their belly down and use a blood choke which puts them out. That would be a submission, because in the gym you would stop when they tap.
Everything else you said is so nonsensical I can't follow it enough to respond to it.
They are mostly nonsense because they're not actually effective, and they've been proven ineffective in empirical tests- mixed fights with little to no rulesets. If you attempted to use Kung Fu to defend yourself against an 'unavoidable situation', you'd very likely lose. Testing in realistic situations- the point of the Deadspin article- is that MMA & its constituent martial arts (Muay Thai, boxing etc.) are what's actually effective. (Did you read the article?)
It's like comparing the 'four humours' vs. modern medicine
Progressive martial arts evolved out of traditional martial arts. A lot of it has to do with the practitioner himself. The progressive arts like MMA and Jui-Jitsu emphasize the combative aspect of the arts. Tai-Chi for the most part is nowadays mostly practiced for therapeutic benefits BUT I would argue that there are Tai Chi practitioners worth their weight in gold. The question is, what are you training for? If the Tai chi guy isnt sparring and moving around with other guys intensely, big surprise, theyre going to suck in a fight but that does not take away from the legitimacy and depth of the art. Tai chi still has blocks, kicks, strikes, ground grappling counters, standing grappling counters, etc. Do you think the masters of long ago didnt realize an opponent could take someone to the ground? All the components of MMA are inherent in the traditional arts. The question is why are you training? What are you training for? Are you testing your techniques against different kinda of opponents? Do you even care about fighting? Are you using your art to evolve beyond the fight? Does your martial art enrich you or take away from your wholeness? What is karate? What is Tai chi? What is aikido? How does it serve you?
You are mixing 'value' with fighting effectiveness. Value to people for fitness, focus or whatever else is separate and not what is being talked about now. This guy is a political target because he demonstrates that TMA don't work in normal fights.
The other part of your comment about TMA thoroughly integrating large parts of MMA is not true in a large sense, though if someone took a class with lots of full contact striking and submission grappling it would be at least somewhat effective regardless of what it is called.
> because he demonstrates that TMA don't work in normal fights
Does not prove that at all. This particular person is obviously exceptional at what he is able to do. It's a big stretch to imply from his skill that 'TMA don't work in normal fights'.
What's a 'normal' fight anyway? A 'normal' fight is not in the basement of a gym where someone separates you and you bow and so on. For that matter a 'normal' fight is not an MMA fight. It is in an everyday situation maybe in a bar maybe by accident on the street. In that case there is a different set of rules and defense strategies.
One other thing. Everyone in discussing this is ignoring what a traditional fighter (or even this person) might do in a 'real' and uncontrolled situation in order to win if they had to and if their life depended on it. Maybe they would poke an eye out maybe they would break a leg or arm. Who knows.
First, this guy has said that he is not exceptional at MMA. If you watch his fights you see that they aren't competitive. It is clear he isn't being pushed, a few strikes and the other guy gives up, usually without having been able to throw anything that looks like a dangerous punch.
MMA is as close as we get to being able to see real fights over and over. There has been vale tudo in Japan but these fights and fighters were so rare they only gave a glimpse into the patterns that would emerge.
The argument over 'street fights' and 'different rules' has been around for a long time, but the fact is that when MMA fighters end up fighting 'on the street' or in a bar, they win. Being in a different setting doesn't change the enormous skill gap in fighting. Anything the other guy can do the trained person can do too. It doesn't somehow swing things in the other direction. Do you really think some untrained person is going to suddenly be able to eyepoke better than someone who has been boxing for years? Do you think an untrained person is going to be able to break the arm of someone who has taken years of jiu jitsu and practices keeping their arms safe for many hours every week?
>Does not prove that at all. This particular person is obviously exceptional at what he is able to do. It's a big stretch to imply from his skill that 'TMA don't work in normal fights'.
It's not this "particular person", it has been proven time and again, even in studies
My guess (per my other comment below) is that there are not any empirical tests for real life situations. Which person does better in a street fight or trying to defend themselves from an attacker (potentially using deadly force) when there is life at stake and no rules. And no person to separate the two fighters (like there were in the video or there are in MMA).
Early proto-MMA events in the US & Brazil literally had no rules (Google 'vale tudo'), and included groin strikes & eye gouges (Google 'Keith Hackney Joe Son'). They were actually underground fighting events, some held in illegal clubs, warehouses, basements- and, they were won by BJJ & Muay Thai guys- the constituent martial arts that make up what we call MMA today. You can actually find Vale Tudo fights on Youtube to see for yourself! Early UFC events also literally had no rules as well- and they were won by, first BJJ and then wrestling. TMA guys didn't fare so well even in the complete absence of rules.
Police & military units the world over study MMA or the individual martial arts that make up MMA (BJJ, wrestling, boxing etc.)- not Kung Fu. Jocko Willink, a highly decorated 20 year Navy SEAL commander, is also a BJJ blackbelt and has specifically said that he used jiu-jitsu to subdue militants in close quarter combat, and that TMAs don't work. On the Joe Rogan podcast he talked about fighting other SEALs in the 90s who were into TMAs and beating them with jiu-jitsu..... Wouldn't an actual Navy SEAL with combat experience know more about what works in a 'real life situation'?
I don't understand how 'person to separate the two fighters' makes it less realistic- they're there to prevent someone who's been KOed from suffering any more unnecessary strikes
jiu jitsu is a traditional martial art.. so is muay thai.
If you go back through history, fighting hasnt changed much. There are ancient roman statues showing techniques used today.
As fighters get too injured, arts start to specialize in one area, and often times become stylized to emphasize the art.
Kung fu was eviscerated in the 1920s when fighting in the lei tai was banned. Before that time fights were often times to the death.
Even MMA is watered down from its origin. Rule sets change to emphasize one kind of fight over another. For example bare knuckle favors grappling because you cant punch as hard without breaking your hand. Gloves favor strikers which are more fun to watch.
kung fu includes sanda and sashou which fight as a combat sport.
"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.". In TMAs you pretty much never ever get punched in the face, all the way to a black belt and smug feeling of superiority. At the Kickboxing gym I attended it was pretty regular to get a new face with high tma rank/belt stop his first sparring after discovering is shock and horror that people actually will hit you and it hurts.
> it was pretty regular to get a new face with high tma rank/belt stop his first sparring after discovering is shock
Per my other comment if the person doing the martial arts were in a real life situation perhaps they would take a different approach or tactic. Sparring in a gym is not real life and doesn't measure what happens in a situation where someone might rely on TMA training and why they take it (in other words to defend themselves and not to spar)
I did WTF for over a year before kickboxing. My best friend, a red belt, decided to do a perfect bakkat makki(1) during a confrontation with some drunk idiots in front of a 24/7 mart. Turns out blocking an empty glass bottle with your bare arm is not the best idea ever, as evidenced by stitches on forearm and forehead. What martial arts did for him was false sense of “Don’t worry… I’ve got this”, and enough confidence to get hurt.
WTF taught me splits and fancy useless head kicks like naeryo and dolyo chagi (roundhouse kick). Kickboxing taught me the second you try that on the street someone is going to grab your leg, put you on the ground and let his friends curb stomp your face to the asphalt. Taekwondo wasnt the worst offender, non contact Karate was close to the peak of bullshido.
(1) something you spend pretty much half of every training drilling in useless forms fighting air, air never fights back.
I agree with everything you are saying. But reminds me of the early days of anti lock braking and in particular all sorts of now more common electronic driving controls. In particular 'can't defy the law of physics'. A car spinning out will not stop spinning just because you have those breaks it's already in motion.
In the case of your friend he did something stupid and got into a situation that he was not prepared for (I had to look up bakkat makki). He didn't recognize the bottle as being dangerous which in retrospect unless you think movies are real is kind of obvious. I was cut on my hand by accident years ago in a work situation by an art knife (by an employee). Same situation and it wasn't a fight. Agree with the kickboxing and I would even say as someone who had a bag as a kid and did karate kicks with it the power that you actually had seemed foolish in thinking you could disable someone with that. Maybe an old lady or a child. Otherwise so much time for someone to react.
> In TMAs you pretty much never ever get punched in the face, all the way to a black belt and smug feeling of superiority.
In my karate class, around the time I got my brown belt, we did an exercise where we'd kinda put a punch out and lean into a partner's face with our fists. Thankfully I had an older brother and I got punched in the face plenty as a kid... so rather than a smug feeling of superiority... I came away with the understanding that I was getting great exercise, flexibility, breath and balance training along with some easy-mode sparring practice. And to be fair my instructor was very clear about that too; he knew the limitations of our training and didn't want to see his kids getting chewed up in a street fight
It seems to me that, similar to DPRK, they don't care so much about what the rest of the world thinks, they care more about what their own population thinks the rest of the world thinks ...
Ancient kung-fu training used to actually be serious though. Strange that it changed so much. That said, karate also has become a sort of ballet dancing.
That's a proof that ballet dancing lessons sell better than combat training. Who would have thought, right? :-)
surprise suprise, the modern office worker is more likely to die from a heart attack or other health issue related to sedentary lifestyles than an attacker jumping them.
fitness is popular ever since people stopped burning all the calories they eat part and parcel to their earning of the daily same...
That's not surprising at all: look at jujitsu and judo: the first is a martial art, the last is a sport, who has more practioner? The sport obviously.
And that's fine as long as you know what you get (good shape), if you're under the illusion that with judo you can win real fights then it's dangerous..
Reminds me of the folks at Bullshido, who do similar stuff to expose martial arts frauds and McDojos outside of China. Wonder if this guy has an account there, or is considering English versions of some of his videos? Definitely feels like they'd find a larger audience here.
There are some entertaining takedowns of mind readers and faith healers on youtube, glad the government doesn't try to protect tarot reading as some sort of cultural gem.
> According to Xu, more than 100 martial artists looking to avenge Wei challenged him in the aftermath of the fight. Xu took out a pencil and paper, ranked his challengers in order of priority, and set about in earnest on his now-famous quest to “fight fakes” (“fake” and “battle” are homophones in Mandarin). As of this writing, Xu has fought 17 of those challengers in public matches. He has defeated them all.
This is straight out of an episode of Letterkenny, where one of the guys proves that he’s the best fighter in the town. Hilarious episode, can’t believe it actually happens in real life. Season 1, episode 2 if you’re curious.
One of my "sniff" test to evaluate a martial art is whether it is taught in the police academy or in the military. I used to rely on the Olympics to do this kind of evaluation but not now due to heavy inclination toward the "art" form more than "martial" form.
For example, Jiu-jitsu, Karate-jutsu, Krav maga are very popular among police academy & military camps around the world. Even Ken-jitsu is taught in Tokyo police academy as well, though not very popular outside of Japan. Those martial arts are designed not only to be very practical in physical contact (neutralize opponent in the shortest amount of time) but also increase the mental toughness. Their cousins (replace the jitsu with do) are more sporty and humane, thus popular in the Olympics.
Growing up watching a lot of Kung-fu/Wushu movies from Hong Kong, I was amazed how artistic it was: beautiful kicks, long-rally sparring time. After getting into Ken-do and boxing, I noticed a typical sparring match lasts at most a few minutes. Then, I came to realize that how a practical martial art is vs. the one with more emphasis on art form. I'm sure certain styles/forms of Kung-fu are more practical (i.e: focusing more on neutralize opponent) as they were intended to be. But over time, the dramatization of motion pictures destroy its original purposes.
Wing Chun is also taught and used around the world in police academy & military camps. But that is not to say it is better than Muray Thai, and I don't see Muray Thai being used for this purpose.
>Growing up watching a lot of Kung-fu/Wushu movies from Hong Kong
The problem with Kung-fu/Wushu itself, it is for one people over idolise it, second being it completely lost most of its root in Mainland China during the 2nd World War and later CCP forbid the use of it. ( At one point they over emphasise science / Guns / technology and calling Wushu as old fashioned and not up with time during the Cultural Revolution, of course in reality CCP doesn't want to arm people with fighting skills ) Most of the Grand Masters ran for life and arrived to Hong Kong during that time, that quickly spread out as a culture and hence why later you see many Kung Fu movies from Hong Kong.
There's definitely a multipurpose aspect to a lot of older martial arts styles, where they are no longer tested for their fitness in most practical senses, and so the form gradually degrades into purely being sport or performance. But the other side of that coin is that arts that develop a restricted kind of technique often do renew themselves when they are reintegrated into a practical system by someone with some design sense, and sport styles in particular allow subsets of fighting to be explored in depth and remain vibrant through competition, even if they are not "realistic".
Boxing, for example, is hugely restricted to avoid grappling and yet the fighters still try to clench up regularly. Actually staying on your feet, throwing punch after punch, is hugely unnatural. But boxers that learn enough grappling to escape submissions can cross over to MMA and do respectably well, because they have the skills to bring down someone at a distance.
Judo, likewise, is full of artifice these days. There are mamy restrictions on the types of holds, penalties to avoid stalling, scoring balanced heavily towards getting off an impressive throw, and a limit of up to twenty seconds to get a pin. But these restrictions also compel judo players to develop strategies for a quick, confident takedown and submission.
The styles that suffer, in contrast, are the ones that may have had relevance in the context of weapon fighting but are now mostly performance - the tai chis or aikidos of the world. Krav maga persists in part because its design works with the smaller knives that modern armed forces continue to use.
Ultimately, the point of training any named techniques is to develop muscle memory - what that memory is used for is secondary, and in that sense all popular systems succeed.
Krav-maga is not a martial art. It is a mix of offensive techniques taken from other martial arts. In order to use it effectively you need to be proficient in at least a few other styles.
A lot of those fight scene coordinators from HK ended up coming to the US to advise Hollywood movies, my understanding is that it's definitively changed the quality of fight scenes (if you compare fight choreography in older movies vs the crazy stuff now).
So yea, it's looking like it's had a lot of success in theater but not in combat.
If someone would compile it this is the sort of report I would read (and pay for) gladly (i.e. what martial arts are used in military / police academies and the rationale).
I think the purpose of the "do" disciplines is maybe getting lost somehow; it's supposed to deemphasize violence as a matter of ethics. This essay reflects my understanding well:
It doesn’t seem crazy that these master would allow people to believe their teachings. That would just make them convincing woo woo con men. To actually stand in the ring with someone and fight bare knuckled, when your opponent is younger and has 50lbs on you is insane though.
Are they really that delusional about their training? If so that actually is dangerous, if you are 120lb woman you shouldnt behave like you can easily fend off large men, no matter how good at tai chi or pressure points you are.
The stuff they're doing is sort of similar to hypnosis, where you have people who are open to suggestion carry out the suggestions of someone confident, and the best way to exude perfect confidence is to actually believe you have powers. That's what I imagine at least.
I agree - this is definitely the really bizarre part. The fact that not just one, but multiple people have proactively sought out this guy to fight is insane. I mean, the first one I can sort of understand. Obviously, you still have to have some serious brain problems to want to fight a guy who looks like that, but it's at least normal-human-range levels of self-deception.
But surely, after seeing the initial Tai Chi master getting the crap beaten out of him, then the next, then the next - what on earth is going on? That's more than drinking the Koolaid. That's watching all your friends get poisoned, then going to the punch bowl and getting yourself a cup.
Its a Face thing. You cant not speak up when your students expect their Sifu to 'stand up to the bully'. You cant deny the dude a fight after he shows in your dojo with cameras.
The Chinese government is just so pathetic, like why be afraid of this guy? The deep insecurity shows such weakness. Letting your people point at the man on top and call him names shows strength. Banning someone from taking a train for beating up scam artists is so incredibly lame.
Making and distributing your own private currency in the US with a dollar sign, the dollar word and the words "Trust in God" was clearly construed to be a federal crime. Let's be honest here - that sort of action would be criminal in any nation.
Does China have a law that prevents contenders from challenging Tai-Chi masters ?
It is not clear what federal laws are broken specifically by using words "Dollar" and "Trust in God".
The point I was making is that Tai-Chi became part of mythology created by CPC that is bonding the society. Slightest challenge is not tolerated. Same with Liberty Dollars - these coupons do not violate any laws, but challenge the state's monopoly on money creation.
All so called self-claimed traditional martial arts masters who oppose the Xu are pathetic in terms of body mass. On a hand-to-hand combat with no rule, body mass works. Joint lock works with equally trained fighters.
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[ 4.5 ms ] story [ 132 ms ] threadSome have fooled themselves into thinking they can fight. They get their ass kicked and end up humiliated by their own delusion.
China is embarrassed that their traditional martial arts don't work for MMA or self defense.
EDIT: I suppose I should add a little thing here for people who take the more practical angle: The point during these fights is that there's an idea (in how the announcers set it up) of Western vs. Eastern/Chinese. He's just demonstrating that there's 'it works' and 'ineffectual'. Aka: Science!
A regular person with no previous martial arts training is easy prey for the "masters".
That's why these traditional martial arts gyms still exist.
It's a microcosm of their entire propaganda-state and the corruption that it's rife with. Even their finance reporting follows the same pattern.
somewhere on youtube, there's a clip of two grandmasters fighting in front of a large audience, in the 1950s I think? It's bw and terrible quality, but it's quite obvious that either one of them would've been whooped in a bar fight on Friday night
We know of kung fu in the united states, but there is also sanda/sanshou which actually fight. Shaolin is more about art than the martial.
From what I've heard, the CCP wants to preserve & promote traditional Chinese culture, which includes their native martial arts. They view MMA as a Western influence, so they want to keep it out
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhang_Weili
Btw, that's what I think the CCP is: Cynical to the utmost extreme. If they sense that the wind is changing they'll adapt. There are limits to how far they'll adapt, obviously[0], but for something like this (cultural heritage vs. whatever), I don't doubt they'll do it soonish. Except for pictures of Winnie the Pooh juxtaposed on the Leader's head. (I mean... how petty can you get?)
[0] Self-preservation would be a top-priority, I imagine. Maybe for the party, but not necessarily.
How are they mostly nonsense? A typical case might be use in an unavoidable situation where some kind of defense is needed. Most people would probably want some kind of 'training' to be able to call on. That is if you can't walk away or avoid which would be the first choice. [1]
Most people are probably not training thinking they are going to fight a determined adversary in a real battle. Saying it is 'mostly nonsense' is the same as saying locks are of no value.
[1] That said I do think that training people for a night or a few lessons 'women learn how to defend yourself if attacked!' is for sure going to cause more harm than good very generally.
try not to simplistically and chauvinistically reduce it to "TMA sux, MMA rox" which is silly to say.
Show me where I said that.
> "submissions" won't exist in that dark alley at 3am... It's run away, die, kill, etc
If it wasn't already obvious from the rest of your message it's obvious from this that you have no MMA experience and are guessing at everything. In a dark alley against a single person the best possible outcome would be to get on top with their belly down and use a blood choke which puts them out. That would be a submission, because in the gym you would stop when they tap.
Everything else you said is so nonsensical I can't follow it enough to respond to it.
It's like comparing the 'four humours' vs. modern medicine
The arts are so deep.
The other part of your comment about TMA thoroughly integrating large parts of MMA is not true in a large sense, though if someone took a class with lots of full contact striking and submission grappling it would be at least somewhat effective regardless of what it is called.
Does not prove that at all. This particular person is obviously exceptional at what he is able to do. It's a big stretch to imply from his skill that 'TMA don't work in normal fights'.
What's a 'normal' fight anyway? A 'normal' fight is not in the basement of a gym where someone separates you and you bow and so on. For that matter a 'normal' fight is not an MMA fight. It is in an everyday situation maybe in a bar maybe by accident on the street. In that case there is a different set of rules and defense strategies.
One other thing. Everyone in discussing this is ignoring what a traditional fighter (or even this person) might do in a 'real' and uncontrolled situation in order to win if they had to and if their life depended on it. Maybe they would poke an eye out maybe they would break a leg or arm. Who knows.
MMA is as close as we get to being able to see real fights over and over. There has been vale tudo in Japan but these fights and fighters were so rare they only gave a glimpse into the patterns that would emerge.
The argument over 'street fights' and 'different rules' has been around for a long time, but the fact is that when MMA fighters end up fighting 'on the street' or in a bar, they win. Being in a different setting doesn't change the enormous skill gap in fighting. Anything the other guy can do the trained person can do too. It doesn't somehow swing things in the other direction. Do you really think some untrained person is going to suddenly be able to eyepoke better than someone who has been boxing for years? Do you think an untrained person is going to be able to break the arm of someone who has taken years of jiu jitsu and practices keeping their arms safe for many hours every week?
It's not this "particular person", it has been proven time and again, even in studies
My guess (per my other comment below) is that there are not any empirical tests for real life situations. Which person does better in a street fight or trying to defend themselves from an attacker (potentially using deadly force) when there is life at stake and no rules. And no person to separate the two fighters (like there were in the video or there are in MMA).
Police & military units the world over study MMA or the individual martial arts that make up MMA (BJJ, wrestling, boxing etc.)- not Kung Fu. Jocko Willink, a highly decorated 20 year Navy SEAL commander, is also a BJJ blackbelt and has specifically said that he used jiu-jitsu to subdue militants in close quarter combat, and that TMAs don't work. On the Joe Rogan podcast he talked about fighting other SEALs in the 90s who were into TMAs and beating them with jiu-jitsu..... Wouldn't an actual Navy SEAL with combat experience know more about what works in a 'real life situation'?
I don't understand how 'person to separate the two fighters' makes it less realistic- they're there to prevent someone who's been KOed from suffering any more unnecessary strikes
If you go back through history, fighting hasnt changed much. There are ancient roman statues showing techniques used today.
As fighters get too injured, arts start to specialize in one area, and often times become stylized to emphasize the art.
Kung fu was eviscerated in the 1920s when fighting in the lei tai was banned. Before that time fights were often times to the death.
Even MMA is watered down from its origin. Rule sets change to emphasize one kind of fight over another. For example bare knuckle favors grappling because you cant punch as hard without breaking your hand. Gloves favor strikers which are more fun to watch.
kung fu includes sanda and sashou which fight as a combat sport.
"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.". In TMAs you pretty much never ever get punched in the face, all the way to a black belt and smug feeling of superiority. At the Kickboxing gym I attended it was pretty regular to get a new face with high tma rank/belt stop his first sparring after discovering is shock and horror that people actually will hit you and it hurts.
Per my other comment if the person doing the martial arts were in a real life situation perhaps they would take a different approach or tactic. Sparring in a gym is not real life and doesn't measure what happens in a situation where someone might rely on TMA training and why they take it (in other words to defend themselves and not to spar)
WTF taught me splits and fancy useless head kicks like naeryo and dolyo chagi (roundhouse kick). Kickboxing taught me the second you try that on the street someone is going to grab your leg, put you on the ground and let his friends curb stomp your face to the asphalt. Taekwondo wasnt the worst offender, non contact Karate was close to the peak of bullshido.
(1) something you spend pretty much half of every training drilling in useless forms fighting air, air never fights back.
In the case of your friend he did something stupid and got into a situation that he was not prepared for (I had to look up bakkat makki). He didn't recognize the bottle as being dangerous which in retrospect unless you think movies are real is kind of obvious. I was cut on my hand by accident years ago in a work situation by an art knife (by an employee). Same situation and it wasn't a fight. Agree with the kickboxing and I would even say as someone who had a bag as a kid and did karate kicks with it the power that you actually had seemed foolish in thinking you could disable someone with that. Maybe an old lady or a child. Otherwise so much time for someone to react.
In my karate class, around the time I got my brown belt, we did an exercise where we'd kinda put a punch out and lean into a partner's face with our fists. Thankfully I had an older brother and I got punched in the face plenty as a kid... so rather than a smug feeling of superiority... I came away with the understanding that I was getting great exercise, flexibility, breath and balance training along with some easy-mode sparring practice. And to be fair my instructor was very clear about that too; he knew the limitations of our training and didn't want to see his kids getting chewed up in a street fight
That's a proof that ballet dancing lessons sell better than combat training. Who would have thought, right? :-)
https://www.amazon.com/Bundle-Michael-Clarke-Collection-Rede...
fitness is popular ever since people stopped burning all the calories they eat part and parcel to their earning of the daily same...
I can't imagine standing up for rationality being this costly (personally). I think we underestimate how fortunate many of us are.
This is straight out of an episode of Letterkenny, where one of the guys proves that he’s the best fighter in the town. Hilarious episode, can’t believe it actually happens in real life. Season 1, episode 2 if you’re curious.
It's a truly hilarious show and the writing is phenomenal.
If you like clever wordplay it's great.
For example, Jiu-jitsu, Karate-jutsu, Krav maga are very popular among police academy & military camps around the world. Even Ken-jitsu is taught in Tokyo police academy as well, though not very popular outside of Japan. Those martial arts are designed not only to be very practical in physical contact (neutralize opponent in the shortest amount of time) but also increase the mental toughness. Their cousins (replace the jitsu with do) are more sporty and humane, thus popular in the Olympics.
Growing up watching a lot of Kung-fu/Wushu movies from Hong Kong, I was amazed how artistic it was: beautiful kicks, long-rally sparring time. After getting into Ken-do and boxing, I noticed a typical sparring match lasts at most a few minutes. Then, I came to realize that how a practical martial art is vs. the one with more emphasis on art form. I'm sure certain styles/forms of Kung-fu are more practical (i.e: focusing more on neutralize opponent) as they were intended to be. But over time, the dramatization of motion pictures destroy its original purposes.
>Growing up watching a lot of Kung-fu/Wushu movies from Hong Kong
The problem with Kung-fu/Wushu itself, it is for one people over idolise it, second being it completely lost most of its root in Mainland China during the 2nd World War and later CCP forbid the use of it. ( At one point they over emphasise science / Guns / technology and calling Wushu as old fashioned and not up with time during the Cultural Revolution, of course in reality CCP doesn't want to arm people with fighting skills ) Most of the Grand Masters ran for life and arrived to Hong Kong during that time, that quickly spread out as a culture and hence why later you see many Kung Fu movies from Hong Kong.
Boxing, for example, is hugely restricted to avoid grappling and yet the fighters still try to clench up regularly. Actually staying on your feet, throwing punch after punch, is hugely unnatural. But boxers that learn enough grappling to escape submissions can cross over to MMA and do respectably well, because they have the skills to bring down someone at a distance.
Judo, likewise, is full of artifice these days. There are mamy restrictions on the types of holds, penalties to avoid stalling, scoring balanced heavily towards getting off an impressive throw, and a limit of up to twenty seconds to get a pin. But these restrictions also compel judo players to develop strategies for a quick, confident takedown and submission.
The styles that suffer, in contrast, are the ones that may have had relevance in the context of weapon fighting but are now mostly performance - the tai chis or aikidos of the world. Krav maga persists in part because its design works with the smaller knives that modern armed forces continue to use.
Ultimately, the point of training any named techniques is to develop muscle memory - what that memory is used for is secondary, and in that sense all popular systems succeed.
So yea, it's looking like it's had a lot of success in theater but not in combat.
https://iainabernethy.co.uk/article/jutsu-vs-do
Are they really that delusional about their training? If so that actually is dangerous, if you are 120lb woman you shouldnt behave like you can easily fend off large men, no matter how good at tai chi or pressure points you are.
But surely, after seeing the initial Tai Chi master getting the crap beaten out of him, then the next, then the next - what on earth is going on? That's more than drinking the Koolaid. That's watching all your friends get poisoned, then going to the punch bowl and getting yourself a cup.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_dollar_(private_curren...
governments are dumb but sometimes they are able to identify the most dangerous threats with great precision.
Does China have a law that prevents contenders from challenging Tai-Chi masters ?
The point I was making is that Tai-Chi became part of mythology created by CPC that is bonding the society. Slightest challenge is not tolerated. Same with Liberty Dollars - these coupons do not violate any laws, but challenge the state's monopoly on money creation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong#Persecution