131 comments

[ 4.4 ms ] story [ 196 ms ] thread
Last time I've tried popos the installer didn't allow me to install with custom LVM on LUKS encrypted drive, is that fixed now?
I recently installed CentOS 7.7 onto a Dell Latitude 5290 (Dell's equivalent of the ThinkPad x280) and found everything (audio, suspend wake, wifi, caméra, nvme) just works, and it gets twice the battery life as on Windows 10.

I'm happy to see really nice marketing on Linux as a desktop OS but it seems over the top these days.

Many things happen in the Linux kernel. It doesn't matter which distro you use as long as the kernel supports your hardware. Lots of distros have taken credit for things that happen outside of what they do.
Can you expand on your answer, please. I haven’t been following Linux kernel updates and wondering if you’re implying that they did a better job at supporting hardware or was there an organized push to support more hardware?

Also, just out of curiosity, did additional hardware support take away from other areas of development or was this just natural since more Linux kernel devs just use different hardware and saw direct benefit?

A distribution like Ubuntu, Debian, Pop!_OS, Fedora, etc., is a collection of programs from many, many other projects and places. Almost every distribution configures things a slightly different way, but almost any other distribution can be configured that same way.

Distros include a unique set of packages, but after installation you can remove what you don't want and add what you do.

The single biggest factor in terms of sheer compatibility with your hardware is the Linux kernel, and every distribution has one. Some are older than others. Some projects remove things from the kernel and recompile. Others add things.

But by and large, the Linux kernel is the same from distro to distro. Some ship newer kernels, to be sure, and some ship older ones. The Linux kernel developers maintain a few different kernels at the same time, some older with security patches, some newer with the latest features and drivers.

Fedora ships new kernels all the time. If you have new hardware and have parts that are not working so great, new kernels will often solve your problems. It's not the distributions doing this, it's the kernel team.

If you have old, stable hardware that works great with an old kernel, you might want to run something like Debian or CentOS -- if you like that sort of thing.

Fedora or Arch are both great ways to get new hardware working its best, but that's because the Linux kernel developers are doing this work at the kernel level, and these distributions pick up new kernels very soon after they are released.

If distro developers contribute back to the Linux kernel -- and many do, from Ubuntu and Fedora for sure, but for others, too -- everybody benefits from those improvements when a new kernel is released for the use of all distributions that want to package it.

So why is it so many programs support/recommend Ubuntu rather than generic Linux? Is it primarily the testing environment that the devs use and the packaging formats the different distros use? I ask because I’m deciding between fedora and some Ubuntu flavour for my next OS and have used Ubuntu for the last 2 years
Linux is just a shell [0], all the distos add their own GUI + specific mods.

I’m guessing Ubuntu is recommended because it’s most widely available or has the least amount of “under the hood” mods that make others more challenging.

[0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux

Testing environment does play a part. Different distros do sometimes use different paths for shared libraries and configs and such. They also sometimes have different versions of libraries in their repos. The programs may be written in a way that don't take this into account and may use an incompatible library or try and look for things in the wrong places.
It all comes down to preference, including what works for your hardware and your use case(s).

Before GNOME 3, Ubuntu, Debian and Fedora all used GNOME 2, and they were more alike than different. I'd say the same is true today with these three and GNOME 3, though Ubuntu skins it somewhat differently.

They really are more alike than you'd think.

(comment deleted)
Most hardware these day is designed for Linux first, then ported to Windows. Linux has a dominant market share in servers, IoT and mobile. While the Android kernel (and it's "drivers") isn't really Linux anymore, it usually doesn't matter much. The driver will exist and they will be implemented by the manufacturer (most of the time) or RedHat/IBM. If a chip (like wireless) has any use outside of laptops, then it's going to have some kind of support.

Lenovo, Dell, Huawei and HP sell laptops with Linux pre-installed and supported.

On servers yes.

IoT, we have plenty of embedded OS to chose from, with the FOSS alternatives going with MIT derived licenses.

Android since Treble, classical Linux drivers hardly count.

And anything graphics related is hardly Linux first, if ever.

Maybe but CentOS is still on 3.10
I have found this to be a great option for local deep learning. Painless install of nVidia drivers, CUDA, tensorflow, etc. Also works well for playing games through Steam.
For anyone who has used Pop OS how does it compare to Mint?
I'm not a power user. But I've been using Linux as my main desktop UI, usually Ubuntu, for the past dozen years or more. And I absolutely love PopOS on my system76 machine. It works flawlessly.
In my experience it was slightly better, but then most of my problems with Mint were because of Cinnamon. Not sure if drivers or just Cinnamon’s compositor, but Cinnamon would become really choppy at times. Pop is smooth and painless to install. I ended up moving to Manjaro and Plasma eventually, but I’d recommend.
It's cpu vsync. It sucks. It's the only thing I change on Mint.

I install my graphics drivers (nvidia), go to the nvidia settings control panel, turn on full composition (run the desktop through the gpu) which enables vsync on the graphics card. I then go into general (settings) and set vsync to none, disabling cpu vsync. This makes Mint as smooth as butter. It also improves youtube playback quite a bit.

Oh, that makes sense. It definitely affects Plasma to a certain extent too. The default compositor uses OpenGL 2.0 and I could feel some amount of subperceptual lag that annoyed the crap of me after a bit. Switched to XRender and things have been great since.
Mint feels more like Windows (but better) with task bar and start menu. Pop is more like Mac with dock and app launcher, but a little less polish. I had to use some Gnome extensions on Pop make it how I like it (for example, to have the dock locked on screen).

On a newer hardware, I'd go with Pop because it's more up-to-date with drivers (esp. nvidia) and linux kernel. In my case, linux kernel version did matter for me because I had a weird start-up issue that was fixed in latest kernels.

You can easily install newer kernels on Mint.

Open Upgrade Manager -> View (Third Menu) -> Linux Kernels

You can choose from the backported kernels from 18.10 and 19.04 ATM, guess the kernel from 19.10 will be availlable soon.

That way i got to undervolt my AMD GPU without a fuzz.

>We’re building an OS for the software developer, maker, and computer science professional who uses their computer as a tool to discover and create.

Then have a simpler website... This website doesn't look like it's trying to appeal to a computer scientist.

The system is rather nice to use, but nothing about the branding of this distro appeals to anyone, as far as I can tell.
I have no idea what you or the GP post mean.

The site loads pretty quickly, does the whole static background scoll thingy, and explains how you can use it and what its highlights are.

Let's say that it looks more like the Apple website, when I expect it to look like the Void Linux website.
Wanted to chime in and say Pop!_OS is the leader when it comes to HiDPI on Linux I believe.

Especially if you have 4K monitors or a 3K/4K mix where the monitors need a different DPI set.

PopOS uses a system to manage the scaling very well. https://support.system76.com/articles/hidpi-multi-monitor/

The closest comparison I've seen elsewhere is fractional scaling in Gnome 3.32+: https://wiki.gnome.org/Initiatives/FracionalScaling

If you have a configuration / workflow for HiDPI on Linux, it'd be nice to see if there were other options / any other things out there.

Thanks for that info. If the OS is pleasent otherwise, I'll switch immediately from elementary OS. Their position on fractional scaling is:

- it's bad because pixel perfectness!

- you're wrong for wanting it

- we don't care that MacOS does it well

So annoying.

> - we don't care that MacOS does it well

At least in 2017 they claimed MacOS didn't do it well[1].

Do you have a link to something more recent where they changed their position?

1: https://medium.com/elementaryos/top-3-misconceptions-about-h...

Oh yes, that's my opinion. They are biased because they see only the defects, I'm biased because it works well enough for me (and many people I have spoken to about this who run MacOS) on MacOS.

Add to that the implicit assumption that it's good enough which is encoded in Apple's decision to include it at all.

Ymmv

Just played around with it temporarily on Linux, to see if it'd work: use the next integer step for scaling UI, then downsample the result to match the display's actual resolution.

This worked by enabling Virtual Super Resolution for an AMD card on Windows, and an equivalent looking result could be achieved with xrandr incantations. Sadly, the mouse ended up being confined to a subsection of the screen, which was a bug, but that should be fixed now: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg-server/+bug/8...

Can you touch on what features, if any, Pop has added that don't exist in Gnome 3? Genuine question from an observer.
Well, beauty I believe
I think one (small) difference is they fixed the default keyboard shortcuts. Several small things like that and it makes a big difference.
The multiple-DPI monitor support has been holding me back from Linux for a long time. Is it possible to install this on other distributions?
Fractional scaling has been available in Ubuntu on both Xorg and Wayland since 19.04.

For Wayland run

gsettings set org.gnome.mutter experimental-features "['scale-monitor-framebuffer']"

For Xorg run

gsettings set org.gnome.mutter experimental-features "['x11-randr-fractional-scaling']"

I've tried it (ubuntu 19.10 / Xorg / Dell Latitude 5491 + 4K Samsung monitor) and it is useless:

  - the scaling applies to BOTH monitors
  - even the 125% mode looks ridiculously big (like 200%)
I was not able to enable Wayland on my system so don't know if it is better :/
I run 125% and I agree it does look closer to 150% over 125% on Xorg. On wayland, 125 is definitely 125.
The typical GNU/Linux UI/UX friendliness.
I agree with other posters that Fractional Scaling in 19.04 is useless. It is useless in particular if you want to have one (bigger) monitor at 100% and the laptop monitor at 125%, a configuration that works particularly well in Windows.

But my argument is that FS is not hardware accelerated, it overheats the laptop and even then makes everything run extremely slowly. You can't watch a Youtube video in any of the screens, it becomes a PowerPoint slideshow.

(comment deleted)
use it every day, very pleasant distribution for a scientific workstation, especially the great nvidia driver support.

the overall design seems to be for a knowledgeable computer user, but one who has no interest in configuring things.

Made the jump from OSX and for scientific users who don't to endlessly chase a working laptop setup PopOS and it's nvidia driver support (on a thinkpad) has been fantastic, highly recommend as well.
Lambda Stack is an alternative to Pop!_OS's tensorman, which doesn't use containers:

https://lambdalabs.com/lambda-stack-deep-learning-software

This is a one-line apt/aptitude installation for TensorFlow, PyTorch, CUDA, cuDNN, etc. When NVIDIA releases a new version of CUDA, you can simply apt-get upgrade to the latest version.

Disclosure: I work for Lambda Labs.

Do you support the 19.10 release? The inability to compile or package every version and variant of TF, and GCC9 conflicts with both the CUDA SDK and Tensorflow, is precisely why we created Tensorman.
Lambda Stack supports 16.04 and 18.04 at the moment.

It's value prop is to enable people to easily install TensorFlow / PyTorch and their dependencies in a container-less fashion. Though it doesn't provide the isolation of containers.

What I've learned from talking to customers is that many people don't care that much about handling multiple versions of the same framework. I wouldn't be surprised if you find that, like Lambda Stack, people are mainly using this product to easily get started with TensorFlow/Pytorch.

Now that TensorFlow 2.0 is out, we will see a much more stable API. People won't have to change their code if TensorFlow bumps up a dependency version. For many, this will reduce the impetus for moving to containers.

Install of PyTorch and CUDA is literally one line in anaconda. I don't remember what I did for tensorflow, but I have it up and running and I am quite the computer phillistine so it could not have been much harder.

Maybe the second part is more of a value prop or good point of focus?

What does this have to do with the parent post?
A large chunk of this page is related to simplifying ML stack installation. See the section on tensorman.
just popping in to say thank you to the dev team if youre seeing this. pop os is slick. i ditched win10 for it and it gives me a hope for the linux desktop i havent felt since 1999!
I just switched to pop from Windows 2 weeks ago. i had been trying out various distros on another laptop over the last few years but I would only mess around for a few days and then go back to windows. switching over completely has worked out a lot better because it is forcing me to learn a lot faster.

having Windows running in a vm is a lot better for my mental health as well. I don't have to worry about it taking control over my computer at random hours to do some updates

I'm seriously thinking about it. I'm just addicted to creative cloud for stuff. Anyone know how to get it working with after effects and adobe xd?

  1. Have two video cards and run Windows on the pass-through via KVM.
  2. Dual-boot
  3. Keep asking that Adobe make their software compatible with Linux.
Or PCI-Passthrough which, while not as easy to set up as it should be, works amazingly well.
I just use a laptop. I meet with people in person all the time in my consulting. Change things in front of them literally on the fly.
Here's an alternative hot take on this.

You gotta cut the Creative Cloud addiction. Unless you're a full-time designer (especially if working in print or something), alternative tools exist, and it's about figuring out how to move and work in them.

No, GIMP isn't in the conversation.

People complain about web tech, but I've found that it's honestly really the best bet for new design technology. Figma et all are good enough for most stuff, many have PSD support, and better collaboration stories on top of all that.

My two cents, at least. I could be wrong, but this is what I'm trying to do - my logic became "if I'm gonna pay monthly for this shit, why am I paying Adobe?". They're not even truly native on macOS and it's run worse for me with each update.

I get what you’re saying in terms of Photoshop and Illustrator, but what about After Effects (and by extension Adobe Media Encoder)? I love web tech, but I have never seen an application come close to the power I get in there.
fusion? im pretty sure they have a Linux version. they do with Resolve anyway. you can also do some fusion stuff inside of resolve now
Switching year ago away from Lightroom, I can do so much photo editing/retouching in RAW that darktable has pretty much eliminated my need for Photoshop/GIMP.
I've tried this though. The tools are just essential though :/ Figma in the browser is great for most things but you can't draw well in it. Inkscape takes extra effort. But animating svg for out put or making high rez images to output for 2x/3x? That's the difficult part.

I just wish Adobe would listen. You're dead right on the macOS point and here I am running windows nowadays.

Just finished updating my laptop as I make this comment. Super smooth, loving it!
Hopefully this means navi is fully supported... already drained enough hours trying to get things all working. Wound up reverting to the last Ubuntu LTS.
Is there someone here who migrated from Mac OS to Pop!_OS? If yes, what was your experience and what did you miss?
I switched recently and I love it. Clean interface, and some good tweaks on top of Ubuntu.

Main reason for switching was better docker support/performance. Don’t really miss anything.

Some say Pop is the best for HiDPI screens, but personally I’ve disabled the entire HiDPI Daemon, with a triple monitor setup it was really buggy and slow so I decided to just take the shortcut and change the resolution of my laptop screen to make it readable.

I switched from a Mac to a Thinkpad running Pop a bit over a year ago.

I miss the Mac trackpad and gestures. I miss the trackpad size and the surface itself. Wiring up libinput-gestures helps some things but you still don't get things like pinch to zoom in Chrome, for example, and the overall experience is not nearly as polished.

I miss Mac OS HiDPI support as well. Fractional scaling helps a bit, but switching from HiDPI to LoDPI and vice-versa (docking/undocking) can leave some apps scaled incorrectly, make a mess of your desktop, and I haven't been able to get a mixed configuration working where only my laptop monitor is scaled while my external display is not. I end up running this 1440p laptop screen at 1600x900 or 1920x1080 instead just to forgo the headache.

The VPN clients we use at work were much more pleasant to use on macOS. We have the option of using one of two different OpenVPN solutions as alternatives, and they're fine, but again, the polish isn't there (little things like automatically reconnecting to the VPN without my intervention would be nice).

I can't really think of anything else I'm really missing these days, though. Things I explicitly DON'T miss: Docker on Mac is a poor experience compared to natively running on Linux... Having a real Linux userspace by default is SO much more pleasant than dealing with Homebrew (which is great if you absolutely need it but I'm happier not having to deal with it at all anymore). I don't miss the Mac keyboard and touchbar. I don't miss troubleshooting things on macOS... it is incredibly opaque in comparison.

Overall, I don't think I'll be switching back any time soon, but would love to see more attention to the overall fit and finish as far as the desktop experience goes.

Any tips for improving the general trackpad experience with lip-input?

Recently started running arch on an X1 carbon and wondering what I can do to make the trackpad better.

It's much improved by 19.10 on my machine, which IIRC went from libinput 1.12 to 1.14. The thumb detection (which was wrong just often enough to be torture) in Pop 19.04 is pretty solid in 19.10.

But then again I don't use anything fancy beyond one- or two-finger gestures. If you want all the fancy gestures, I can't really say much about that.

I'm actually currently using both at the same time on different laptops.

The biggest thing I miss -- font rendering. Font rendering is all messed up in linux. It's painful to read pdfs, emails, browse the web. I've tried all sorts of configuration options and it's still broken. Really, it grates me. Things just look off.

On Pop! (old thinkpad), typing gives me joy, and I live in the terminal / use vimium browser bindings / snap windows around. I prefer this machine for editing code / hacking.

On Mac, swiping around is frictionless. I use hot corners, gestures, and have trackpad sensitivity at the highest. No need for vim outside of editing code, and I default to GUI workflows. The screen is much better, and prefer watching videos.

My VPN setup and all that jazz is just as easy on either machine.

> On Pop! (old thinkpad), typing gives me joy, and I live in the terminal / use vimium browser bindings / snap windows around. I prefer this machine for editing code / hacking.

Same. It's extremely satisfying for keyboard-centric workflow.

Yep. Pop OS fixed the graphics driver mess on Linux and seemingly spurred Ubuntu to finally take action.

I'm hoping they tackle font rendering next.

Snappier UI and more stability. Has what I need for web dev. Starbucks wifi did not work out the box but summoning the correct incantation was easy enough. Never completely migrated over (music, photos, keychain) because of laziness. Miss using voice commands on one device and having it sync data with the rest of my devices (Apple TV, Mac, and iPhone). Ideally, I would replace all my devices so I could regain this functionality. Recently came back to Mac OS for work. After about a month, I'm finding myself using my System76 Lemur more and more.

Feel free to ask any questions.

How is the keyboard, trackpad, and battery life?
Keyboard seems reliable. The keys are softer than those of an old Macbook, but have slightly more travel and resistance than those of a magic keyboard. The clickity clackity feel is satisfying.

Haven't thought of or used the touchpad much. Limited gestures, adequate size. I don't use it much.

Battery life feels comparable to that of the 2012-2015 Macbook Pros I've used. Can code, browse, and listen to music for maybe 4 hours a charge, and it recharges quickly.

I moved from Mac to Pop (on a Dell XPS 9750 w/ 4k screen) about 3 months ago. Honestly the OS has been pretty much fine. When I installed it was on Pop 19.04, and I had to manually update to kernel 5.3 in order to get some hardware support, but now that kernel is included in Pop 19.10.

I find the contacts/calendars/mail programs to be overall less functional than Mac OS. Not terrible, but it is taking some time to learn the sharp edges to avoid. Geary is their default mail client, but it doesn't support a unified inbox, and I have a lot of email accounts, so I bounced between a bunch of other clients before finally settling on Evolution. Evolution feels like a bad Windows business suite from the late 90s, but the fact is that it has the functionality I need, and I think I can learn to avoid its oddities.

Besides that, everything about it is very familiar to a mac convert. You can see clear areas where strong inspiration was taken from the Mac. It's honestly breathtakingly good, and it's free. I haven't looked back.

Overall, I'd say you should pick up a System 76 Laptop and give it a go. If the Darter Pro had been around when I was switching, I'd certainly have bought that.

I have almost a violent reaction to gnome application UX. I find it terrible. It is so hard to figure out how to do anything.
I felt the same way but I love it these days, I just used it wrong for a long time. It's very opinionated and you kind of have to adjust to the workflow. It makes more sense to treat it more like a tiling window manager than a traditional UI and use the keyboard extensively.

I've reconfigured switching between workspaces to simpler hotkeys and together with the overview you can keep a lot of stuff open and navigate without things feeling cluttered.

Just support ubuntu.

Given how short the cycle is between the two ( < 48 hrs apparently) I find it hard to believe any real value is added here.

And no I'm not using a OS where just typing the OS name is dependent on keyboard layout. WTF is wrong with you people? Thats insane. No

Who are you arguing with?
>Who are you arguing with?

Who's arguing? It's top level comment on a hn submission. Occasionally people post their opinions. Who am I arguing with? I didn't realize us vs them mindset is compulsory here.

Maybe you should re-read the comment. It reads as if you’re angry about something with little to no context as to what point you’re trying to make. Whatever works for you, I suppose.
I sensed no anger in the comment, and it was a fairly well-made point.

relax.

I suspect it was read as an argument because you wrote a few opinions in the form of a response, e.g. "And no I'm not using a OS where..."
> And no I'm not using a OS where just typing the OS name is dependent on keyboard layout. WTF is wrong with you people? Thats insane. No

That seems like a negative response to an implied suggestion. Taken together, and considering your tone, I think it's fair to call the suggestion and your response an argument, and it's understandable that one would question with whom you are arguing.

Great project, but adjacent punctuation hurts me
I'll chime in here to show my support for Pop!_OS. Simply put, I like it so much, that it's been the host OS on my 2013 Mac Pro tube since early this year: https://triosdevelopers.com/jason.eckert/blog/Entries/2019/3...
Great picture post. I've been curious about Pop for a while and I've had similar frustrations to what you mention. I also appreciate the mention that it works better outside a VM, I'll skip that.
Since it's based on Ubuntu, can I just add a repo and install their desktop?
Yes you can, I’ve done it in the past. I don’t recall the info, but you can search for it and should find it easily.
No real indictment on the quality of the OS nor on the effort that people have put into the project, but why, oh why, did they pick a name which has two different special characters in it?

It looks like they're trying hard to push this OS but they seem to have hurt their chances of SEO by creating a name which is both unpronouncable (pop exclamation mark underscore OS) and unsearchable.

While I agree the name is silly, it seems to work in Google. Both "pop os" and "pop!_os" returned their page as the first result for me.
as a programmer, I really wish they're was a google setting that respected special characters. in general the algorithm seems to throw them all out discriminately. perhaps they're not indexed at all, for performance reasons?
it's something of a trend in music, to have special characters in the artist's name. especially with "underground" acts, it's almost like the more unpronounceable or SEO-able the name is, the cooler you are.

at any rate, Yahoo! worked out ok, until it didn't.

I thought maybe to match the length of “Ubuntu” but I guess not.
It gets worse.

When mounting the Intel ISO in Windows the resulting CASPER_P.10_ folder does not match the

/casper_pop-os_19.10_amd64_intel_debug_21/ path designation for vmlinuz, initrd, & live-media-path found in boot\grub\grub.cfg & isolinux\isolinux.cfg

IOW, mounts as a disk fileset of questionable bootability, confirmed fundamentally failing by SYSLINUX over USB.

Even though it boots when burned to optical disk.

This is an insidious defect, not present in the underlying Ubuntu distribution.

Long folder names and/or special characters do not seem to be an ideal approach.

I have been using PopOS on my secondary, private laptop for two years. I installed it on a whim, and it just works for me. Nothing spectacular, just polished. Always been happy with it.

Perhaps that's the biggest compliment for an OS?

I tried it last release. I don't see how it's any different than Ubuntu other than the company also makes laptops. I must be missing something.
I havnt used ubuntu in years so I'm not sure how they compare, but i think pop has different keyboard shortcuts, has nvidia drivers included, it uses a different app store gui, has a better/easier install walk-through with an option for full disk encryption.

its basically just a lot if small things that make it easier to use right out of the box. that's what it seems like to me anyway

Is it me or is it so weird that this "OS" (Linux distro) made by a laptop seller (admittedly, with a nerd clientele in mind) has for top selling point bundling a tool to manage your tensorflow installation?

Also mentions of blockchain and IoT make this page look like a buzzword bingo.

Truly is a buzzword bingo. This paragraph:

Imagine Development as a First-Class Citizen

The cloud and devices of the future are running Linux. Accelerate your productivity by developing on the same platform that you deploy to. Your tools and programming languages are supported natively and only a command away.

???

I scrolled all the way down and I'm still not sure what the heck is this supposed to be. The selling points are window snapping, workspaces, and... a script to install tensorflow? It's all so bizarre.

Imagine Development as a First-Class Citizen

The cloud and devices of the future are running Linux. Accelerate your productivity by developing on the same platform that you deploy to. Your tools and programming languages are supported natively and only a command away.

??? I scrolled all the way down and I'm still not sure what the heck is this supposed to be. The selling points are window snapping, workspaces, and... a script to install tensorflow? It's all so bizarre.

We’re focusing on you in a different way than anyone else. Our approach centers on user testing and careful analysis with the singular goal of delivering the most productive and gorgeous platform for developing your next creation. It’s not just about making the easiest tool, it’s about making the best tool. And we’re just getting started.

Nope, still not making sense.

Discover what’s possible at the cross-roads of IOT and AI.

Oh, please just stop.

Its a Ubuntu distribution or OS.
Took me a while to figure out it was a fork of Ubuntu. Does System76 maintain its own aptitude repos? What custom software does it come with (if any)? What architectures does it support? What is the default desktop environment? There's no detail anywhere. No screenshots either.
I've been using Pop_OS for ~6 months and have found it to be very nice.