There's a similar scam in europe with trademark registrations, funnily enough there are more than one operator trying this so you get 3 or 4 of invoices to register your trademark after you've registered your trademark.
This is common not just in SoCal, but across the US, with property deeds, mortgage insurance, lots of shady businesses preying on the ignorance of property owners when public record transactions are updated.
A simple fix would be to dictate, through legislation, that you can't provide a government service such as a copy of your deed at a cost substantially above the cost the government is providing it at.
A nonprofit that mails to lists based on the same thing, but with a postcard listing common scams would be pretty cool. I was shocked by how much of this stuff I got when I bought a house.
I would be very interested in partnering with local outreach groups and/or Code For America to spin this up with Lob. After a postcard is designed, the only cost should be postage (which, based on Lob's pricing, looks to be between 41 cents and $1 per piece) and some compute time for taking property record data and generating mail pieces with API calls to Lob.
Not a permanent solution, but an effective shim until regulation catches up. "Department of Hotfixes"
Another similar scam in France when you register a company - you’ll get a half dozen official looking letters asking for a payment of hundreds of euros for a stamp and inclusion in their registry of businesses. Usually has a deadline of within 31 days of registration of the business, and a note that looks official that should be kept for the accountant. All rubbish, of course, and reliant on people who are unaware of what is actually required to register a business paying every damn bill that arrives to be sure to be on the right side of the law.
Something similar happens if you own a domain name. They'll send you an "invoice" for your domain by email or physical post hoping that someone who doesn't know too much about IT or just blindly pays invoices to fall for it. If you read the fine print it actually says that it's not an invoice but an offer to transfer to their registrar or something.
Don't forget the offers for "important" (actually worthless) services related to your domain, like search engine listings or other useless SEO services.
Thankfully, increased privacy on WHOIS records have clamped down on these practices.
I got one of these last week and almost lazily put it on the to-be-paid pile until I realized that I had a memory of paying for it already on the USPTO site, and double checked. They made it seem old school enough that it could have been a government letter.
I just got one of these this week! Only $3,000 to register the trademark "internationally", but they try their best to make it seem like it's part of the registration process you've already undertaken and you simply need to sign & submit to move forward.
I got a bunch of these "trademark protection" bills after registering a trademark this year. Very official-looking. First one almost had me fooled, but then I caught onto it.
Can confirm, this has been going on for at least 15 years, so enough people must fall for it. Which is kind of remarkable, given as you say, you tend to receive 3-4 of these demands at once.
They are quite good at looking "official" though, and always have company names that you'd think private companies wouldn't even be permitted to use.
Given how long this has been going on, and given the EU's somewhat notorious legislative machine, it's also quite ridiculous that these scams haven't been outlawed yet.
Ugh. This reminds me of the USPS address change scam. Just type "change address" into Google and see how many Ad results for this are thrown in top of your search results. They are all semi official looking, and charge you. I'm ashamed to admit I fell victim to one of these after a very long day of moving and a few beers years back. The USPS offers this for $1(not free, thanks ebg13)! I blame myself, but do wonder why Google allows and even promotes these sites...
Google doesn't do a damn thing about the feedback.
Every time I search for my bank's routing number, the first result that pops up is a fishy looking 3rd party website. The numbers are accurate (for now?), but it's super sketchy. My bank's results are three or four slots down the list.
I keep complaining and Google does nothing. It may just as well be an elevator "close door" button.
I recommend you only obtain routing numbers from within your bank's mobile app or website. Can't speak for all banks, but Chase, Fidelity, and Schwab all list your routing and account numbers prominently when logged in (and some financial institutions have different routing numbers depending on your use case, a wire vs a direct deposit for example).
To your point about Google feedback, sadness, but unsurprising.
That routing number isn't always the correct one for a wire transfer. So make sure you find out from your bank which number to use for the given use case.
Thanks, edited. I was wondering when I wrote that 'why would I have got my credit card out'...now it makes sense as I remember having used that service in the past.
To be quite frank I’m happy google doesn’t ban websites outright if it determines the service isn’t useful. There are already enough things google censors without merit, I could only imagine they’d abuse this too
Oh, it doesn't only cost you $1. It also costs you at minimum a years worth of free spam mail from various "You're moving! Here's a bunch of discount coupons for things you don't need" that USPS sells your new address to.
I imagine there is some kind of confusing opt-out dark design, but as someone who instinctively always opts-out every time, and who is usually not tricked by UIs, I still found myself inundated with unwanted spam mail.
Of course, the only honest tactic would be an opt-in, but that would destroy the revenue the feature makes...
This does beg the question, if your company relies on dark patterns to get people to sign up for your service to survive, why should it be allowed to continue to operate? Seems to me like the market is speaking
I usually get modded down for this, but that's why I insist MailChimp, etc. is a spammer. Most of what they send the recipient never explicitly asked for. Anybody who sends out more automated mail than they have incoming transactions is spamming. Any email that doesn't reference the exact transaction that authorized it is spam.
There was an opt-out and multiple pages worth of confusing "opt-in" options selected by default. I painstakingly went through and skipped/declined all of them. But I'm still receiving my "moving gifts".
Did you actually look at those coupons? I got 10% off Amazon (up to $200 savings over 90 days which is reasonable to achieve) and 10% off Home Depot (up to $100 saving).
A lot of people can benefit from that Amazon discount regardless of a recent move. Plus Home Depot is super helpful if you moved into a house. There's always something that needs work.
When I was renovating my home, I used to “move” to my current address to get those coupons. Lowe’s used to take those coupons on top of their 5% discount.
Yeah a lot those coupons you get when you file a change of address form are really good coupons. I've never had to pay for them or used any that turned out to be scams.
That's very interesting. I had no idea they were now charging $1.05 to file a change of address on line.
I suspect they implemented the fee since people as above are filing change of address forms from Address A to Address A just to get coupons mailed to them and the $1.05 covers the cost of mailing the coupons. It also, requiring a credit card, provides for a measure of identity verification and reduces fraud associated with fake address change filings.
> We use your email address to send your transaction confirmation or send a one-time reminder email if you do not successfully complete your transaction.
Ah, so it's not true, as was claimed above, that the USPS form gives your email to the companies so they can spam you.
I fell for a similar scam recently. I needed a copy of a birth certificate and my county's website was a mess and required showing up in person at the county office. I found a site like this that promised to make the process smoother and paid something like $50 for it and all they did was fill out the forms and mail it to me so that I could go stand in line at the county office.
For me the frustration is often the opposite. I show up to places in person because I'd rather talk to human beings and fill out paper forms than use their shitty website. Yet more and more often once I show up I'm told to use one of their computers to access their website. I could have done that from home!
Heh, I was at the Apple store in Paris and couldn’t understand why people had printed off pieces of paper and marking things off based on their research on the computers there.
Like, how could you not do the research yourself in advance?
I have a hard time someone at the Apple Store doesn’t already have access to internet elsewhere to do their research.
Wow, what happens if you moved all the way across the country and needed your birth certificate? Such as for the DMV in the new state you are declaring domicile in.
Then with the new real ID thing I've heard some elder people had to rebuy their birth certificates because the DMV quit accepting the older ones.
I receive stuff like this all the time because one of my cars will be out of the manufacturer's warranty soon. They masquerade as if they're form the OEM and offering to sell me additional coverage. Even though this has nothing to do with government services they still manage to make them seem "official" and alarming if you don't take any action ("You could be liable for thousands of dollars of damages!").
I'm actually more pissed at the OEM for giving these companies my information.
It's typically not OEMs. DMVs and other auto industry participants sell your VIN, vehicle, and address info. These extended warranties are extremely lucrative, hence why so much effort goes into marketing them.
Thank you, I was wondering how to use that darned Google.com website.
That said, if you have a particular source that you would like to direct me attention to, I'd be interested in knowing because none of the first few results seemed to have anything relating to your comment, beyond the already established fact that yes, they are scams.
I included the link to give a quick overview without polluting the thread, as there is no one blog post or resource that outlines the many issues with that particular industry.
If you'd like to know more, please feel free to email me (email in profile). I know someone who sells these products, and was asked to invest to scale up volume (politely declined after researching and reviewing materials provided for due diligence), so I have context that a resource like Consumer Reports or The Balance might not have.
The ones I received were very specific. I can't recall now if they had the actual expiry date of the warranty, but they struck me as clearly having some insight into me or my vehicle.
Perhaps they only stuck with me because they seemed accurate and it was only coincidence.
FYI, it's almost always the dealers that sell your data...and even your financial numbers if you filled them out in their office. They don't even anonymize it.
Problem is easy to fix without explicitly outlawing the practices. If business is selling government records, they need to disclose the actual cost in a defined format on a separate insert. Violations are similar to canned spam law and have a statutory damages of $750 per violation.
For that to work you'd need to demonstrate the business is actually charging $80 for the deed ... but they're not. Deep in the fine print there'll be something about the cost being $3 for the deed and $86 for the "proof-reading, checking, and validation service to ensure you have included the necessary information for your deed request to be completed promptly". Regulating against services that claim to help people would be very difficult.
As long as that is called out explicitly, people can make a (more) informed decision about whether or not those additional services are worth $86. If I see "the document itself costs $3, additional <something> $86"; I'm much more realize I may be able to procure said document through other channels.
I think OP meant just for the violation of not properly displaying the base cost of the service if you went to the county/city directly if you phrase it properly it doesn't matter how much they charge as 'proof reading' services if they don't show people that it only costs $3 directly they can get fined for all the purchases made since it was last properly displayed wiping out their profits.
I think also forcing them to link out to either the direct form or at least some page explaining how to submit the form directly to the government would also be a good idea in addition to forcing them to just show the base cost. Force them to provide an actual value add instead of just fleecing people looking for the correct way to do something.
> I think also forcing them to link out to either the direct form or at least some page explaining how to submit the form directly to the government would also be a good idea
While I agree, I also kind of expect that if you did this they would find the most difficult possible way to submit the form directly to the government that would still work (e.g. "to renew your car registration without using our quick and easy service, call the California DMV at [number] and request form REG 343. Fill in the form with your, vehicle identification number, make, model, year, and [87 more fields]. Fax the form to [fax number] or make an in-person appointment with the DMV").
It could, but only if the law allowed them to choose where to point to but it could just as easily allow the agency to dictate the canonical website to point to.
Another version of the grift is to scrape lists of newly registered businesses and send out an official looking letter charging $80 to send a laminated poster of the kind that some states mandate be posted, e.g. about workers' comp.
Except that these materials can typically be printed out for free, and the letter makes every effort to appear to be a mandatory bill coming from a government agency.
I once had 3 guys in suits show up to a new office my work had opened. They acted very official, asked to see our labor posters. I told them we don't have any (should've asked for ID right then). They told me I could avoid a fine if I bought some from them on the spot. At that point I caught on, asked for ID - they showed me something official looking that didn't actually say they were government. Once I asked them point blank if they worked for the government they admitted it was a private company and I told them to leave.
It was a total scam, but it did make us be sure to get our labor posters hung up though. (We just asked our payroll provider to send them to us and they were free.)
> Senders of official-looking direct mail get around these restrictions by including language — often in fine print — declaring that the correspondence is not in fact official.
Ban fine print. Honestly. Anything that declares the correspondence is not official has to be in the same point size as the body of the text, separated out into it's own paragraph in plain no uncertain terms that the majority of adults could understand.
I worked at a title company and owned the escrow and documentation preparation software. At the time they used line printers to print on carbon copy forms. Each page was differently colored so the "original" was always the white top copy. Getting a new copy of the paperwork was of course expensive and only the original was accepted for certain purposes.
We had a very interesting conversation with the doc prep department when I moved everything to using high speed laserjet printers. "Which one is the original, now?" The end result was someone buying a large rubber stamp that read "Original." :-)
A friend worked had a government contractor as a client that had to use a specific, 8-9 part carbon form because the form was referenced in law and had to be used. Due to other issues, the law couldn’t be amended.
At some point, it became difficult to get a printer and paper that would work with that many imprints!
Put yourself in their shoes. What if one copy says the interest rate is 3.5%, and the other says 3.8%? You SAY they are the same, but are the really?
If you have a strict policy of "one version is the 'original' and the rest are 'copies'", then wording of the 'original' gets legal priority. Legal priority == much lower legal bills.
If you have a policy of "they are all the same", then when they are different, you have a nasty, expensive legal fight.
The real issue to me then and now was how do you prove the original is the original? I pointed out then that frankly a good enough photocopy would also be indistinguishable despite a rubber stamp. I no longer remember but I guess the answer to that is red ink. This was prior to color photocopies being readily available. Or maybe they bought themselves a crimper and embossed a stamp.
Take a look under a microscope. The difference between a rubber stamp whose ink bleeds into the paper and a Xerox which is kind of melted on the paper is enormous.
I just throw out any mailing that pretends to be official but isn't (it's not hard to distinguish - official ones tell you who's sending it and why, scam ones don't), regardless of what it says. If they feel the need to trick me even before our business has started, there's no chance they intend to be honest later, so why would I want to do any business with overt crooks?
Or the courts should start taking graphic design into account: if there is any ambiguity, the large & legible print should be enforced and the difficult to read fine print disregarded.
For every "unnecessary and burdensome regulation" in the books people love complaining about so much, there are people like these who exploit and profit off of loopholes in the system.
The rate at which exploitation of people (via exploitation of loopholes) occurs does not have a continuous positive linear correlation with the number and complexity of the regulations.
When I bought my house, I very nearly fell for this. They are very official looking, with faux degraded copying artifacts on a 'proof' deed. Even if currently legal, this is absolutely a scam.
Surely this is just fraud, i.e. obtaining money by deception? Do they really need a new law to ban this, or do they need to enforce the existing laws better?
I understand that these scammers automatically send their letters whenever something changes about an address. Wouldn't it be a fantastic public service if someone else automatically sent those same people a letter warning them of this scam and directing them towards more honest services?
I recently had to get personal workers compensation insurance for a contract (bc). Could have gone through a service to do it. Employer would have paid. Would cost them $6000/year, with a ~$2400 tax liability to me. Did it myself for $10/month and ten minutes filling out a form
There are so many of these scams out there. The internet allows people to google to check if it's legit, but they'll also find a lot of online firms offering the same service at a markup, which helps convince people that the original letter was legit.
In the UK it's free to change your name, you can just write your name change on a peice of paper, get a couple of friends to sign it and you're done. I've done this, but when I tried to explain to someone else the free process they told me I was wrong, citing scam websites with semi-official names that charged for the process.
Same with « will kits » that are a template that you fill out. And the legal jurisprudence in Canada that make them valid is a farmer getting stuck under his tractor scratching in his will in the fender with a rock.
When you form a new business entity the firms that help you do it will charge $50-$100 for an EIN number from the IRS. This is the tax ID for artificial persons, whereas the SSN is the tax ID for natural persons.
You can get an EIN from the IRS online for free in 5 minutes.
It's not just private companies you have to worry about doing this.
After you buy a property my local government sends you an mandatory looking survey in an attempt to a) rat on the previous owner for un-permitted improvements b) build a case for valuing your house higher for taxes c) preemptively admit to non-compliance with city specific laws you probably don't know about yet.
I was going to write a letter to the local newspaper but I thought better of drawing attention to myself that way.
I hold a belief in small government, but the spam mail I've been receiving since building a house cries loudly for regulation.
They make this stuff look so official. They use IRS fonts. They print it on pink paper. They write "final notice" when that's meaningless. They have your PII from the public records and make it look like it's from your mortgage group.
That kind of business should be treated as fraud. Who knows how many elderly or otherwise have lost tons of money from these garbage "companies." They should be ashamed.
Some of this really is pretty wild. I got junk mail within a few weeks of closing that was made to look like fake late/missed payment notices and foreclosure warnings and insurance mistakes and all sorts of horrible lies. I am curious if they maintain the quality of the illusion further into the scam but not curious enough to find out.
Regulation exists to protect people, property, the environment, or national interests. It largely comes from a reaction to harms.
That’s not to say things evolve and regulation should keep up (or that it’s ineffective for its goals), but I don’t understand why there’s such a fervent backlash against it, particularly from the right. It largely feels fueled by those who wish to profit from its undermining, and one particular party has let it be known they’re open for business in that respect.
Did these concerns exist in say, the 1960s? 1910s?
> but I don’t understand why there’s such a fervent backlash against it
Because it’s often both overreaching, ineffective, and/or harmful to unrelated things. See: the war on drugs, gay marriage until the last decade, etc, etc.
The more you do at the federal level, the more fallout it’s going to have and the harder it’s going to be to fix.
> and one particular party has let it be known they’re open for business in that respect.
This is a strawman to help delegitimize people who are against particular regulations for philosophical reasons. I don’t recommend repeating it if you want actual discussions. It’s like claiming most of the pro-choice movement is driven by the abortion industry.
If you have a business of any sort, there are companies that look for business licenses, LLC formations, etc, and send official looking forms sometimes with fine print saying they're not the Government and sometimes without, offering to do the same thing you can do for a small fee for a much bigger one. They're not adding any value at all. The form you have to fill out for the government requires the same information as their form.
I probably get at least one of these a month. Everything from trademark renewal to burglar alarm permit renewal.
> "When Brusius altered the name on her deed, that may have triggered the solicitation."
Sorry in Advance, I'm not familiar with this formal process.
If the whole exchange is triggered by completing the property deed, what's the service this company claims to provide for $89?
I understand it's a scam, but what is the "alibi-service" they deliver in return for the payment?
Same thing here in Germany. Once you have a registered company you'll receive lots of official looking invoices from scammers for some sort of register.
181 comments
[ 22.1 ms ] story [ 4156 ms ] threadA simple fix would be to dictate, through legislation, that you can't provide a government service such as a copy of your deed at a cost substantially above the cost the government is providing it at.
Not a permanent solution, but an effective shim until regulation catches up. "Department of Hotfixes"
Thankfully, increased privacy on WHOIS records have clamped down on these practices.
They are quite good at looking "official" though, and always have company names that you'd think private companies wouldn't even be permitted to use.
Given how long this has been going on, and given the EU's somewhat notorious legislative machine, it's also quite ridiculous that these scams haven't been outlawed yet.
Every time I search for my bank's routing number, the first result that pops up is a fishy looking 3rd party website. The numbers are accurate (for now?), but it's super sketchy. My bank's results are three or four slots down the list.
I keep complaining and Google does nothing. It may just as well be an elevator "close door" button.
To your point about Google feedback, sadness, but unsurprising.
$1 if done online.
Because they pay Google and aren't actually illegal.
A better question is why Google puts ads at the top of search results.
You know the answer...
Of course, the only honest tactic would be an opt-in, but that would destroy the revenue the feature makes...
This would destroy a lot of companies..
https://www.darkpatterns.org/
I disapprove of it.
A lot of people can benefit from that Amazon discount regardless of a recent move. Plus Home Depot is super helpful if you moved into a house. There's always something that needs work.
$0 if done in person.
I suspect they implemented the fee since people as above are filing change of address forms from Address A to Address A just to get coupons mailed to them and the $1.05 covers the cost of mailing the coupons. It also, requiring a credit card, provides for a measure of identity verification and reduces fraud associated with fake address change filings.
> We use your email address to send your transaction confirmation or send a one-time reminder email if you do not successfully complete your transaction.
Ah, so it's not true, as was claimed above, that the USPS form gives your email to the companies so they can spam you.
Like, how could you not do the research yourself in advance?
I have a hard time someone at the Apple Store doesn’t already have access to internet elsewhere to do their research.
Perhaps someone at the Apple Store is there to purchase a device that will give them access to the Internet which they don't currently have elsewhere?
You did have to apply in person.
And someone did create a page where you could pay $10 and they would wait in line for you.
So at least sometimes you are buying a real service.
Then with the new real ID thing I've heard some elder people had to rebuy their birth certificates because the DMV quit accepting the older ones.
I'm actually more pissed at the OEM for giving these companies my information.
https://www.google.com/search?q=extended+warranty+spam
That said, if you have a particular source that you would like to direct me attention to, I'd be interested in knowing because none of the first few results seemed to have anything relating to your comment, beyond the already established fact that yes, they are scams.
If you'd like to know more, please feel free to email me (email in profile). I know someone who sells these products, and was asked to invest to scale up volume (politely declined after researching and reviewing materials provided for due diligence), so I have context that a resource like Consumer Reports or The Balance might not have.
Perhaps they only stuck with me because they seemed accurate and it was only coincidence.
Or if they say they cars under 50000 miles I respond asking them my car has 50001 miles would it still be covered
EDIT: grammar.
I think also forcing them to link out to either the direct form or at least some page explaining how to submit the form directly to the government would also be a good idea in addition to forcing them to just show the base cost. Force them to provide an actual value add instead of just fleecing people looking for the correct way to do something.
While I agree, I also kind of expect that if you did this they would find the most difficult possible way to submit the form directly to the government that would still work (e.g. "to renew your car registration without using our quick and easy service, call the California DMV at [number] and request form REG 343. Fill in the form with your, vehicle identification number, make, model, year, and [87 more fields]. Fax the form to [fax number] or make an in-person appointment with the DMV").
Except that these materials can typically be printed out for free, and the letter makes every effort to appear to be a mandatory bill coming from a government agency.
It was a total scam, but it did make us be sure to get our labor posters hung up though. (We just asked our payroll provider to send them to us and they were free.)
Ban fine print. Honestly. Anything that declares the correspondence is not official has to be in the same point size as the body of the text, separated out into it's own paragraph in plain no uncertain terms that the majority of adults could understand.
We had a very interesting conversation with the doc prep department when I moved everything to using high speed laserjet printers. "Which one is the original, now?" The end result was someone buying a large rubber stamp that read "Original." :-)
At some point, it became difficult to get a printer and paper that would work with that many imprints!
"they're identical. doesn't matter. but I got a stamp to tell you which one."
"they're identical. doesn't matter. but I got a stamp to tell you which one."
If you have a strict policy of "one version is the 'original' and the rest are 'copies'", then wording of the 'original' gets legal priority. Legal priority == much lower legal bills.
If you have a policy of "they are all the same", then when they are different, you have a nasty, expensive legal fight.
* wording
How do they still exist and continue making the same thing? What's the point of this fine if it does not change anything?
In the UK it's free to change your name, you can just write your name change on a peice of paper, get a couple of friends to sign it and you're done. I've done this, but when I tried to explain to someone else the free process they told me I was wrong, citing scam websites with semi-official names that charged for the process.
You can get an EIN from the IRS online for free in 5 minutes.
After you buy a property my local government sends you an mandatory looking survey in an attempt to a) rat on the previous owner for un-permitted improvements b) build a case for valuing your house higher for taxes c) preemptively admit to non-compliance with city specific laws you probably don't know about yet.
I was going to write a letter to the local newspaper but I thought better of drawing attention to myself that way.
They make this stuff look so official. They use IRS fonts. They print it on pink paper. They write "final notice" when that's meaningless. They have your PII from the public records and make it look like it's from your mortgage group.
That kind of business should be treated as fraud. Who knows how many elderly or otherwise have lost tons of money from these garbage "companies." They should be ashamed.
Yeah, totally. Maybe there's some other stuff that also cries out for regulation!
That’s not to say things evolve and regulation should keep up (or that it’s ineffective for its goals), but I don’t understand why there’s such a fervent backlash against it, particularly from the right. It largely feels fueled by those who wish to profit from its undermining, and one particular party has let it be known they’re open for business in that respect.
Did these concerns exist in say, the 1960s? 1910s?
Because it’s often both overreaching, ineffective, and/or harmful to unrelated things. See: the war on drugs, gay marriage until the last decade, etc, etc.
The more you do at the federal level, the more fallout it’s going to have and the harder it’s going to be to fix.
> and one particular party has let it be known they’re open for business in that respect.
This is a strawman to help delegitimize people who are against particular regulations for philosophical reasons. I don’t recommend repeating it if you want actual discussions. It’s like claiming most of the pro-choice movement is driven by the abortion industry.
And also looking for presorted first class postage. That's a huge giveaway that you're looking at trash.
I probably get at least one of these a month. Everything from trademark renewal to burglar alarm permit renewal.
Sorry in Advance, I'm not familiar with this formal process. If the whole exchange is triggered by completing the property deed, what's the service this company claims to provide for $89?
I understand it's a scam, but what is the "alibi-service" they deliver in return for the payment?
The letters can look VERY official; sometimes almost clones of official state mailings.