Ask HN: Does being practical act as a hinderance to one’s imagination?

159 points by itsmefaz ↗ HN
I'm asking this from the context of ideas & solutions, I'm facing this sort of struggle that I'm unable to find solution that is completely outrageous. I feel that my level-headedness could be one of the factors for my failure to come up with some out-of-the-box thinking.

HN, am I valid in this assumption or completely stupid?

81 comments

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Maybe I'm missing what you mean. Sometimes a flight of fancy is fine, eg while brainstorming or creating fiction!

But the world values grounded workable solutions to real problems too. Being practical is good for these.

I find myself exasperated when, given a practical and an impractical solution, some people turn their nose up at the former as uninteresting.

Not really. Ideas are just patterns. Apply a pattern from something else to something else. A lot of what I do comes from sports or military.

If you're not getting enough ideas, think laterally, learn about other fields. See how chess players think, martial artists, football players, soldiers, food franchising, theology. Every field has its own 'common practice' which seems really obvious to the people in the field, but strange and new in a different field.

Agreed. My PhD research is inspired by the simple fact that we drill in martial arts, so can we apply similar 'common practices' in CS education.
Neat dissertation topic! I've used code golf for this very thing. It really forces you to learn the weird nooks and crannies of a language, and try lots of different strategies.
There is work by Frank Vahid (founder of ZyBooks) on many small programs and how students performed comparable to other traditional styles.

However, in the vein of this thread, I think that is only playing one note to learning CS. When I compare CS to martial arts (MA), I consider the traditional programming exercise akin to sparring. It is real world situated, but with the number of new variables it is difficult to successfully demonstrate or refine your understanding. MA, like CS, has a high attrition rate to start, and for reasons I consider isomorphic - a false sense of what CS/MA is and the demoralizing effect of "losing" constantly (sparring or debugging).

So, in MA, there are attempts to make sparring less intimidating. You can pair equal experienced partners or against an understanding senior, but you also focus on drills. If we consider sparring as a combination of problem solving and applying technique in the moment, then drilling removes the problem solving aspect to allow for technique refinement.

So, in combination with traditional programming exercises, my current work is looking at novel practice activities separate from tradition - for example, error finding, output prediction, and even typing exercises (which I have published on).

That's very interesting. I considering doing this but it seemed like an awful lot of work needed to start. There was a boom of 'learn to code' sites recently but looks like nobody really tackled it from that angle.
One can be a level headed person and can be completely outrageous when coming up with ideas. I think both of them are not interwined, but it could be if you think it is, like a paradox.

One immediate example that springs to my mind is Albert Einstein. You could say that his ideas are outrageous that space and time are same and they are bent etc. Even people (like the Nazis) publicly called it outrageous and blasphemy. But if you think about his ideas, he clearly followed through with a rigourous mathematical proof which I think might be indicative of height of level headedness. In fact, if you skim through his process of explaining relativity to general public through his book [0], you cannot distinguish when he is being level headed and when he suddenly jumps into a bizarre thought experiment.

[0] - https://archive.org/details/cu31924011804774/page/n10

Practicality is a choice whereas creativity is a poorly-understood synthesis process. If you're very level headed, it just means that you are quick to discard ideas that sounds risky, difficult, or improbable. If you are looking for more creative solutions, try allowing yourself to day-dream a little more or to work on some ideas that you immediately feel are impractical. It will take time to create a pattern of habit where you can suspend your critical side long enough to explore imaginative ideas. The fastest route to this is chemical. But. You know. That's not for everyone.

Oh! Also try allowing your brain some breathing room. Walk away from the problem and do something else. Your brain will work on it in the background. The more you dwell on it in your conscious mind, the more you will focus your existing solutions down.

Edit: You must learn to trust your subconscious to help you with keeping an active eye on it. Just as you must trust employees to do their work without micromanaging them and breathing down their necks the whole time.

https://youtu.be/iHcxkmwBOJY

You must learn to trust your subconscious to help you with keeping an active eye on it. Just as you must trust employees to do their work without micromanaging them and breathing down their necks the whole time.
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As a personality trait? No. As a mode of thought? Yes.

You can learn a new mode of thought. You have to be open, and not dismiss things early, which means allowing yourself to follow ideas which have obvious flaws or which totally impractical. It helps to have confidence that you'll use your practical, analytical, and more closed mode of thought later. But first you've gotta jump out of the local maxima and try to find something new. Generate ideas as if you're high; highdeas are usually bad and that's ok, your sober self will be around to check it out later. Maybe the idea will be thrown away then, and maybe it won't.

There's a great John Cleese talk on open vs closed thinking that you could look up on YouTube. A good book on the subject is A Whack On The Side Of The Head.

Edit: That said, there's also something to working with another person, and each focusing on one of these roles more than the other. Like author and editor. Lots of things follow this pattern of splitting these roles up among people.

Very well put! I'll add that dismissing things early tends to act as a roadblock to further creative pathways. It's almost exactly why you don't shoot down ideas while brainstorming; it kills the environment of creativity the exercise is intended to foster.
Great question.

In my experience, I actually think it can -- but you can overcome it, too.

I grew up programming and always excelling at concrete, black-and-white, logic-based types of things (math, physics, etc.).

Later I wanted to pursue more artistic things, and discovered I simply didn't know how to think imaginatively, instead of analytically.

After a while, I learned how to "let go" of my analytical brain so that my artistic/subconscious brain could be free to "make connections" between things that had no logical connection on the surface.

And now I have no problem with it -- so it's never "too late" -- but they're definitely two "modes" of my brain I have to consciously switch between. And they're largely "separate" modes that both have to be developed/strengthened through practice.

If you want to work on imagination, I highly recommend things like writing classes, improv classes, acting classes, painting classes, all that stuff. I think classes with other people in this context are really important, because the instructor and other students' work will give you a lot of examples of creativity to inspire you and build you up. If you stick solo (as I did at first) you may find yourself just applying the same "analytical" solutions you're familiar with, and not being forced to expand your imagination/creativity.

Maybe your vocabulary of archetypes is just limited? Do you read non-technical books regularly?
I think this is a major reason you often see such a stark personality split between cofounders—one being more freewheeling when generating ideas, and the other being deeply pragmatic.
It may help to adapt some tools. For example, in the tabletop RPG world, a lot of random tables are used to develop new concepts for stories, characters, interactions, missions, and so on. You roll the dice a few times and suddenly you have a very unique and imaginative idea indeed. You can draw up your own random tables and tweak them over time, like creating software.

There are also sensory cues: You might choose a new location to do your gaming, play some appropriate mood music, etc. On one of my first ever "software guy does graphic design" projects, I asked the client what music they liked, and then listened to that for about 3 days straight. It really helped me get into the correct problem-solving lens where more appropriate colors, shapes, fonts, and textures were concerned.

On top of that you may find there are supplements that help you out. Personally if I'm running on 8+ hours of sleep and take about 100mg caffeine, I feel like I can solve just about any problem and new ideas are more likely to seem fun. ;-)

In the past I wrote some randomization software to help me solve problems. One of my favorites simply picks random words out of a dictionary. Each word is treated as a metaphor. I remember once a client said, "I thought I knew exactly what you'd say, but that is an idea that never would have occurred to me." This was my goal.

IMO there's a lot of space to grow in this area even if you feel like a potato where your imagination is concerned, and the process can be really enjoyable. Good luck to you.

If you have access to friends or family with children the next time you're hanging out you should try asking the kids a simplified kid friendly form of the problem you're trying to solve. They'll usually give you a completely correct answer that interprets the question in a way you never would. It's both interesting and enlightening.

Since they haven't internalized the exact definitions of the words they're using or hearing, or even how the world works from a physical or logical perspective you literally can't replicate it with your adult brain. You know too much. It's kinda cool.

A half decent article on the subject: https://effectiviology.com/curse-of-knowledge/

I constantly perceive that this is a major problem in modern UI designs, whereas in the past people thought really hard about usability, because they didn't grow up using computers, everything was new.

"Outrageous" or "out-of-the-box" solutions are just very lateral solutions to a problem, and in an engineering context you can do this by questioning the assumptions of the problem until you've reframed it enough to allow these solutions to seem more "obvious".

Here's a very silly and simple example: you have an engineering task to search for an ID in a tree data structure. You may know several standard methods off the top of your head or you may look up the best performing algorithm online. Either way, the solution is the expected one.

But let's abstract the problem: Why do you need to search for an ID in a tree data structure? Do you need a tree in order to keep track of the path and the IDs you pass? If not, then why not scrap the tree completely and go with a hash map of key/value pairs? That solution is both faster and easier to implement, but it only occurs if you think about the goal of the problem instead of the problem itself. You can abstract it even further and ask whether IDs are required at all, and if they aren't what other solutions could be used to accomplish the same goal. This is a very, very simple example but the idea can be applied to varying degrees in any problem, and kind of comes to the idea of finding first principles in physics.

Agree with this approach. I had a manager tell me once that managers think differently than engineers and I asked him to explain. He gave the example of asking an engineer how to turn on a light bulb. The engineer (me) would/did say to flip the light switch. He said that manager would ask why do you need to turn on the light bulb? What is it in the room that needs to be illuminated? Maybe your real purpose is to figure out if there is a certain item in the room, and there is a better way to figure that out than turning on the switch.

As an engineer, I am aware that my mind often plots the shortest path from problem to solution, without ever stopping to question the problem definition. Sometimes reframing the problem is the best way to get to a more creative solution.

As an engineer, the thing I always prided myself on was always asking my customers/stakeholders ”Ok but what’s the problem you’re solving? Why do you need this?” before jumping to a solution to their initial ask.

Often they ask for a solution to the 3rd step in their process where they got stuck and it turns out the underlying problem is easier/faster to solve

Yes, but I don't see it as a fundamental personality trait so much as a state of mind.

The pragmatic mindset naturally simplifies, reduces, focuses, makes early judgement calls about what trains of thought are unlikely to yield results. The opposite of that is to be open and curious, to let thoughts expand and meander without any clear destination or utility and to see where those take you without assuming you know what is or isn't possible. That's where divergent imagination really gets going.

Each mindset serves a purpose; it's beneficial to learn how to shift between them as needed.

I think a lot of creativity (or lack of) can come down to routine. If you follow the same routine every day, doing the same things, you get in a rut. Breaking your routine can help to get your mind into a different frame which can unlock some creativity.
There is a saying from Zen Buddhism: "In the beginner's mind, there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind, there are few".

Granted, the beginner is also going to go down a lot of dead-ends, but sometimes the expert won't get started on something which they have mistakenly ruled out as impossible.

The question is, what (mental) exercises could you do to get into the practicality equivalent of "beginner's mind"?

I think constraints and pragmatism are requires aspects of creativity and imagination. You can’t have one without the other.
I don't think being practical hinders one's imagination (I would consider myself both imaginativ and very practical).

I know of two school of thought regarding the origin of original ideas :

- Original ideas stem from ignorance of the existing idea and being an outsider in the domain. I don't think this is sustainable as, at some point, you have to become familiar with the domain to which you want to contribute.

- Original ideas comme from a deep knowlege of the domain and its history which lets you understand how new concepts you meet might fit in the overall puzzle.

Overall, if you have problems coming out with outrageous new ideas, I would recommend practice : whenever you enconter a problem, try to design a solution for it (it doesn't matter if you never implement it) and only then research what kind of solution is used to solve this problem. With time you should become familiar with your own creativ process.

Not at all.

A few months ago I started being extremely pragmatic in everyday life (even against my will which is usually not like that). Things like, say no if you want to say no, answer emails immediately with a sentence at most, find the fastest way to get something done etc...

Now I have a lot of time on my hands to do whatever I want, that includes spending the day studying or pondering things which I believe greatly increased the potential of my imagination.

Find things that you like and do them, weed out everything else. If you can't shake some of those away, find the most practical way to get rid of them.

In my experience probably yes. But keep in mind everybody things they are creative. And a lot of smart people effectively create things by borrowing ideas in a team setting.
Over the years of mindfully watching myself,

having endless debates on what's important for creativity : being flexible or being organized,

having read the book on this topic called "making ideas happen",

I got to understand what we all know already

To do the best of our work, it requires

Balance

- Balance between creativity and organization

- Balance between being practical and being a mad scientist

- Working in routine and breaking that routine

- Having a laser focus on problem and staying away from the problem

I don't think being practical acts as a hindrance to one's imagination. It's critical to actually accomplishing creative ideas. Each skill just needs to be engaged when they're most useful. If you're trying to be creative, then you should be actively trying to pause thinking practically. Then, once you think you've "got something", start looking at the idea practically to see if it's even possible. Repeat until you have a creative solution that might just work. Being imaginative let's you fly, being practical helps you land.
I think it makes sense. If you are a practical person, pair up with a creative person, your skills will complement each other.
What you're looking for is something called "Lateral Thinking" [1]. Using one's prefrontal cortex "silences" their inner genius and prevents "Ah ha!" moments. This is why people get breakthrough ideas in the shower, going to the bathroom, or driving. The "step-by-step" executive planning part of the brain is not engaged in these moments.

John Cleese has given talks throughout the years about how to be creative, and they're very good. [2]

The Programmer's Stone is also a good source of information about this topic. Instead of "lateral thinking", the authors refer to "mapping" and "packing". Packing is when you're in "step-by-step" mode. When programmers refer to "being in the flow", they're probably referring to the state of mapping or lateral thinking. [3]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateral_thinking

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y70nbDJI5Uk

[3] http://programmersstone.com/

Research Edward De Bono for much more information on lateral thinking, creativity, and thinking
I loved Cleese's talk and I wonder if there's the inverse of it somewhere? On the opposite side of the spectrum are those of us who make all sorts of wonderful connections but have difficulty putting A next to B next to C.

Perhaps it's Elon Musk's chats on thinking in first principles, but I'd love if anyone knows some introductions to linear, tight-knit, strategic thinking.

Edit: I also wonder if books on clarity in writing like Zissner's "On Writing Well" qualifies here. Writing is linear and the practice of it presumably should help the writer think more clearly.

+1 to that. Creative solutions come when you apply a working pattern to an unexpected subject. You need both knowing multiple fields and experience crossing ideas.
I agree this is probably what was meant by "imaginative" in the original question. But, it doesn't directly address the core question of causality: does practicality limit imagination and lateral thinking? I think the answer is, "no". Practicality is largely in the domain of decisions and behavior. In contrast, imagination is in the domain of thought and speculation.

To not allow your imagination to run ahead of or independently of your behavior, to not allow yourself any mental play, is to be unimaginative. That's tautological. If you truly find yourself unable to imagine any outrageous ideas, you have to look elsewhere than pragmatism if seeking a cure. You need to rediscover how to play. In your head. Pragmatism is a filter to decide when to put some of your play ideas into practice, not a filter for thought itself.

There are different challenges someone else might face, requiring different analysis. What if you are able to come up with outrageous and lateral ideas, but are afraid to voice them? Or you are unable to ground the ideas in any kind of reality, i.e. pure fantasy rather than plausible-if-ridiculous? Or do you find challenges in the social environment of getting any air time for your ideas among your peers...?

Practicality is key to successful creativity, look at Elon Musk or Steve Jobs. Many have dreamed of going to mars but only a very practical person like Elon can make it happen.

Solving problems within actual constraints may be the greatest creativity of all.

I used to be the opposite. For a good part of my first 10 years as a programmer, I used to always go for the wildest and coolest solution, architecture, language, etc. Coupled with me being a good salesman (able to sell to management) it continuously led to a huge amount of frustration and struggle.

Once I learned being practical first and creative only when needed, now I feel quite happy and productive. Seems like the satisfaction of my customers is much better than the tech itself.