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Ask HN: I think I've been scammed - what now?

37 points by jiganti ↗ HN
Hey guys, I posted on HN back in August last year asking about meeting potential technical cofounders. After recently moving to San Francisco, I wanted to make a few of the ideas I was thinking about happen. I got a number of emails, including help from HN'er 'mahmud' and eventually partnered with someone. We created a first site www.crushtease.com, which I paid a reasonable sum for 50% equity.

Our product didn't initially go viral, and I mentioned another idea to my cofounder, who thought it was interesting as well. We ended up working on this second project (wikizu.com), while shelving the first project for the time being, identifying a few errors to the concept and presentation. I paid for that, plus some sort of marketing campaign that I knew far too little about.

This was back in November, right before Thanksgiving. From then until now, I have been asking him about the status of Wikizu and he has given me a variety of excuses. I believed them until a few friends started questioning the situation. Today I confronted him about it and he dodged every question I posed.

I suggested he send back the advertising money (which I sent back in November, thinking we were launching very shortly) to prove my friends wrong. He concluded I was being "annoying", said he had work to do, and mentioned contacting a lawyer a few times. I can upload the chat conversation somewhere if anyone wants to read it, but this is pretty much what happened.

I understand that I was horribly naive, and blindly trusted what I was told without really understanding what was going on. I sent money to someone I didn't know simply because we had long IM conversations and he seemed to know what he was talking about. He even made the sites functional with facebook, which I thought meant for sure there was no reason to question him.

I don't know what to do at this point. I'm out a good chunk of change, but I'm also frustrated that I've spent six months waiting around instead of implementing some of my ideas. I even posted on here earlier today asking about doing another project with someone, since I was tired of waiting around.

The alleged scammer posts on HN, and to my knowledge has a minimum of two accounts, one that he has posted as recently as this week on. A google search including his name and "scammer" brings up results, as does one with a pseudonym he uses for various sites. I'm not sure if I should out this information at this time. Any help would be appreciated.

44 comments

[ 2.4 ms ] story [ 91.6 ms ] thread
solipsist
This reminds me a little about about what happened with Mark Zuckerberg and the Winklevoss twins. Communication was cut off for a while and many excuses were made. However, if it makes you feel better, the twins now have a $150 million stake in Facebook. [1]

Anyways, I'm not sure if I have much advice. First thing should definitely be hiring a lawyer, though. You should probably refrain from posting anymore information here on HN as well. I've seen you've already removed some, which is good. We only need to hear the gist of the situation (for future reference).

Hope everything turns out well!

  -
[Added in edit]

I traced back to when you were first starting this project. One of the people commented and wrote:

   I see these types of posts and it astonishes me that people will look for
   cofounders "on the street."

   I can't imagine that [ increases the odds of being successful -- but maybe I'm
   wrong. Employee number 5 can be an unknown quantity,
   but employee number 2? That would terrify me. [2]
This should be a warning to everybody else.

[1] - http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2011/01/04/...

[2] - http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1625890

John212
> first thing should definitely be hiring a lawyer, though

I guess this depends on how much money you lost, if you are willing to throw good money after bad, if you had any sort of agreement that you can show your lawyer and if this bloke has any assets.

You may spend a lot more time and money than you lost pursuing this...

Ramanean
Scary..This is why I make sites alone without partnering anyone..But that takes too much off time..
rokhayakebe
If you truly believe the idea has some merit then you should launch it. Looking at wikizu, it does not seem as if he is very far in development.

Unless you are out lots of money, you should let it be because lawyers cost money and time.

jiganti
I have no programming experience. All I bring to the table is the idea, and some money.
solipsist
If you still have the money, forget about this programmer and go find a new one. Make sure you meet with the new programmer and find if he/she will be committed to the project. Get to know them, then hire them.
citricsquid
What to do now? Send a stern email explaining the situation: you think he's ripping you off, if he can't produce evidence of a product being worked on or provide an explanation of where the money is, request the money back, if he can't provide that then I'd suggest contacting a lawyer (got any contracts?). If he can't explain where the money is, show a product or return the money, in that situation I'd suggest lawyering up.

It's possible he got sidetracked, or it was more work than expected, but money given as "marketing budget" for a product that he can't show exists should not have gone anywhere. If it was wages, or a fee for the work then sure he could explain it away, but marketing money? Having been in this situation on the other side, in my case I got extremely busy with work that was paying me directly and didn't have time for the side-project work, but I didn't take any money intended for post-launch and spend it in the interim... that crosses the line from slow/lazy to wilfully ripping someone off.

If he had spent the money to keep himself afloat while he worked with money coming in from other means later on that he intended to pay you back with (or sneak back into the marketing money without you knowing) that could explain it, but if there is no product to show that can't be the reason.

tl:dr; if he took money, can't account for the spending and refuses to show a product (eg: it doesn't exist) lawyer up.

jiganti
I basically told him that I don't understand anything about computers, and that I'd like some proof to appease my concerns. An easy way would be for him to send the money back, and since initially he had claimed to be very well-off, he certainly had the money to spend. He could have lied about being so well-off, I suppose.
cperciva
A google search including his name and "scammer" brings up results, as does one with a pseudonym he uses for various sites.

This is pretty weak evidence. Google searches for "Colin Percival" +scammer and cperciva +scammer find a few dozen results too.

baddox
Well, it's only weak evidence if you're not also a scammer.
ibejoeb
I don't think I follow the whole story. What exactly did you pay for? Did you pay him for his time, because when you say "I paid for that, plus some sort of marketing campaign..." I wonder what that is. If you paid for advertising, who got the contract? Is there no invoice?

Are you sure the terms were clear? If the other party kept the money in exchange for his efforts--and that seems likely--then I don't think there's a lot too this.

If the money was for an advertising campaign, I'm not sure why you feel that you're owed the money. What you're doing comes with risk of failure.

Perhaps I missed something in there. I think it's awfully aggressive to make public accusations of wrongdoing without explaining the arrangements that were made.

----

I re-read your account, just to make sure I didn't miss the point, and I pretty sure I did not. This really sounds like you offered money for a stake in something that didn't take off, and you admit that you were not diligent in entering into this deal. That's the game. I suppose it's up to how your contract is written.

lrm242
You met someone on the internet. You sent them money. Presumably, you have no contract (at least you didn't mention it). The person who has your money isn't doing what you want. You've realized doing this was amazingly stupid.

Consider the money you've spent and the time you've wasted extra credit for your "how to do business" degree. Seriously, you should know better. If you want to start and build a company stop looking for people to implement your ideas and go find a true collaborator. Find someone you can sit down with over coffee and look in the eye. Find someone that shares your vision and complements your skills. Don't just be the "guy with an idea and money" because those guys get taken by slime balls like this. Be the guy that recruits a team, manages the business, forms the company, drives the team, finds early customers, gets the logo designed for nothing by hustling hard--the guy that does everything else. This guy is useful to coders. IMO, your money and your ideas are worthless to people with good intentions. You have to bring more to the table than that. The good news is "all the other stuff" requires only that you have a brain and work really hard to make things happen.

Don't waste another moment worrying about this. Drop it. Move on. Spend your time and energy on creating something positive and always remember why this happened.

Assholes are everywhere. Starting a business is risky and hard. The ONLY risk you can conceivably reduce (never eliminate) is the interpersonal risk between you and the people you choose to spend your countless hours of blood, sweat, and tears with.

jiganti
Thanks for this. I'm young and was fortunate to make some money while young and foolish. This will be a good lesson.
solipsist
This was the best answer I've ever seen in response to a question on HN. Good advice and well written.
mahmud
your money and your ideas are worthless to people with good intentions

That's not true. His original idea, the one I discussed with him, was actually very good, specially for someone of his generation (college student.) I can easily see someone like Mark Bao or other Facebook gurus doing something with it.

jiganti, while not a programmer, is actually very in tune with the social web and his peers. I really don't doubt the merit of his ideas, just wish he would find a co-founder, and not an employee.

If you're reading this Zach, go back to campus and find the smart kids and go halves with them. Not freelancers.

olalonde
Out of curiosity, how much money did you invest in this?
csomar
I also want to know, because the sites look so unprofessional.
hugh3
Is this a genuine request for advice, or a passive-aggressive communication with your alleged scammer?
jiganti
I suppose I didn't consider why I wrote this post; but just knew I wanted to. Realizing 6 months of my life were based on a lie made me instinctively ask HN for help. As I think about it now, it probably was first and foremost what you described. But thinking about it now, I also respect the HN community and think they will be able to point me in the right direction.
Devilboy
Chalk it up to experience and move on.
SeanNieuwoudt
I'm sorry about the situation you are in, but it is largely your fault.

Did you do any reference checks on previous work before you partnered with him? Did you meet up in person to validate his personality? Did you google him after speaking to him the first time?

The internet is rife with scammers, but in this case you DID actually receive two sites - albeit not extremely well built ones. Scammers would have generally taken your money and produced nothing at all.

just my 2cents...

brudgers
Nonsense. Based on the story, it was the intent of the other party to separate the OP from their money, and the other party apparently acted deliberately in ways intended to gain the OP's trust. Misplaced trust does not make someone responsible for the damage another person does to them, and naivety is what a grifter preys upon.
jiganti
This seems accurate. Looking back, he was adept at making unverifiable yet somewhat credible claims. I never asked for some substance, which is what I should have.
[dead] sighautodead
Note to self: never, ever hire Sean Neiuwoudt.

After all... only a fool would hire somebody with your attitude. How could you be trusted, knowing that you care so little about what people receive in return for their money?

How could you be trusted, knowing that you'll simply blame the victim after you con them and fail to provide value. Truly... only a complete and utter moron would ever hire you.

mahmud
Hi there, you mention my name, even though I just gave you free help, but you withhold the name of the person who scammed you? Not cool man.

If you know this person is a known scammer and has minimum of two accounts, as you said, PLEASE OUT HIM. Sheesh.

galuggus
at least make it plain this guy had nothing to do with scamming
gpjt
Agreed, I read the original post too quickly and until I saw this comment, I had the impression that mahmud was the scammer. A clarifying edit would be good.
[deleted]
(comment deleted)
jiganti
Sorry about this. It looks like I can't edit it anymore. Mahmud helped me in the early stages, but was not the person I partnered with and has nothing to do with the issues. At this time I don't know how much information my alleged partner has about me so I am going to refrain from outing any information on him. It looks like my best bet is to just walk away at this point.
[deleted]
(comment deleted)
random42
If I were you, I'd delete the post ASAP, before google bots reach, I edit were not possible anymore, and start a new thread. (Copy all the important/helpful suggestions).

A person's reputation can be destroyed very easily on the internet. (I, for one, even after reading pretty slowing, thought 'mahmud' was the scammer).

Edit - If you, for some reason, decide not to delete the post, atleast reply directly to mahmud's comment, so when it reaches top, people would see clarification, just underneath it.

dtran
He even made the sites functional with facebook, which I thought meant for sure there was no reason to question him.

Why does adding a FBConnect button make him more trustworthy? I see several things wrong with this sentence.

jiganti
I don't have a technical background; to someone like me this appears somewhat reputable. It appears I've paid for my ignorance.
Nick_C
I end up on Google's page when I try to open either wikizu.com or crushtease.com . Some sort of redirect happening?
jiganti
It looks like he took the sites down.
Nick_C
Perhaps you could use this for yourself positively, as an example of why agreements in writing are necessary. One co-founder should not be able to decide to take a site down (not technically, but legally).

Documentation is a pain, but it is like backups. You hope to never need it, but it is absolutely necessary if you do.

jiganti
It appears like I was unclear. Mahmud had nothing to do with this, and in fact was the one who gave me unconditional help in the early stages. I apologize for the misunderstanding.
lrm242
At the risk of adding to the intrigue here, I think it's best if this community knows that there might be someone unsaviory amongst us. It is jiganti's perogative whether or not to out the person responsible for this. However, nothing stops a bit of detective work.

Whois on both wikizu.com and crushtease.com reveal:

    Registrant:
        Sink Float
        P.O. Box 820
        Beijing, Beijing 100837
        China

    Administrative Contact:
        Float, Sink  sinkyfloaty@gmail.com
        P.O. Box 820
        Beijing, Beijing 100837
        China
        +20.13352074153      Fax --
A few tests of user profile pages shows us there is a user here named 'sinkfloat'. Strange, but not conclusive by any means. Another search using searchyc.com using 'sink float' reveals another user, 'pinksoda' making some outrageous claims about sites he/she has built [1] [2]. Also, a link to a new business they started, www.sinkfloat.com [3]. Ok, now we're getting somewhere. Whois on sinkfloat.com reveals the same contact information as wikizu.com and crushtease.com.

Knowing that jiganti mentioned this user has at least two handles here, a lot of evidence points that pinksoda and sinkfloat are one in the same and likely the person jiganti partnered with on this venture.

[1]: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1299723

[2]: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1299094

[3]: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1269276

Conclusive? Maybe not. Certainly enough, IMO, to make anyone thinking of doing business with pinksoda or sinkfloat think twice. Unsavory business practices, scammers, etc are not welcome here, as far as I'm concerned. I welcome pinksoda and/or sinkfloat to chime in here if this analysis is wrong. If so, I apologize.

profquail
If you examine the DNS records for wikizu.com, you'll find:

    wikizu.com		SOA	
    server:	ns1.linode.com
    email:	talkburst@gmail.com
    serial:	2010102781
    refresh:	14400
    retry:	14400
    expire:	1209600
    minimum ttl:	86400
        86400s
    wikizu.com		NS	ns4.linode.com	86400s
    wikizu.com		NS	ns1.linode.com	86400s
    wikizu.com		NS	ns2.linode.com	86400s
    wikizu.com		NS	ns5.linode.com	86400s
    wikizu.com		NS	ns3.linode.com	86400s
    wikizu.com		MX	
        preference:	10
        exchange:	mail.wikizu.com
        86400s
    wikizu.com		A	69.164.209.157	86400s
So, that gives you an email address (maybe). Then, if you lookup which domains are hosted on the same IP as the mail server there (the MX record), you'll find:

  * crushtease.com
  * earcavity.com
  * seoette.com
  * sinkfloat.com
  * wikizu.com
Two of those we haven't seen yet. I'm not going to post anyone's personal info here...but if you're the kind of person that likes to do whois searches (and who isn't!), you'd find some relevant contact info. You might also then search DDG for the site name and look at a few of the top results.