Yeah I laugh when people think that free healthcare in US will unleash a wave on entrepreneurs. More like people will retire early and take time off. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but it isn't a money spinner.
So are you telling me you think people shouldn't receive free healthcare because it's more difficult to make money off of them? If so, what is this world coming to....
iOverlander is such an awesome app. It’s the barebones required to do exactly what is needed. Minimal design. Links to other apps for directions, etc. no bloat. It uses OSM, and I believe it contributes data back to OSM (not 100% clear how that works, but it eludes to it)
I was using freecampsites.net, but once I found iOverlander I never looked back.
I dread the day of a “massive update” destroying all that is beautiful about it.
They make almost all of their money from affiliate marketing on Amazon? I'm amazed they can make enough to cover gas with that, they must be pretty good promoters of products.
Large fortunes have been built off it. That and lead generation are very effective ways to amass relatively large amounts of money if you are good at it.
I have a single blog post about a handful of Masonic books that is good for 5-10$ a month, one time someone bought one of the books which was nice for a couple of bucks but also bought an expensive snow blower that I got a 40$ and change taste of.
There's definitely money to be made there with even relatively low conversion rates, after that snow blower bounty I started keeping a mental list of any podcasts or other content creators I like have amazon affiliate links on their sites and I always drive my larger Amazon purchases through by clicking one of their links first.
I'm not surprised that this is such a popular "quarter-life crisis" for my generations (millennial / genZ). There's no point in trying to settle down in a world where it is impossible to meet people or build communities.
And it's not expensive. Personally, I spent less than $25k on a DIY RV, and that included solar power and a new motorcycle.
I wouldn't say that I'm happy - it's still harrowingly lonely. But I'm less unhappy than I was when I was working in a big city. There's something calming about nature, and the US is enormously beautiful.
And I think that, ironically, there are a lot of people like me out there. People who feel disgusted with our current culture, who don't judge new acquaintances by their mutual friends list entries, and who are genuinely interested in improving the state of the world and the experiences of the people around us. But we have no way to connect, so we wander off and bide our time in the vain hope that someday we will find a world ready to accept us. Until then, there's really nothing to do but smell the roses.
One thing I didn't see called out is how often you'll be without cell signal, but I've only skimmed the article so far. I'd recommend getting a satellite beacon if you decide to do this, if only so that you can reliably get weather reports and send messages in an emergency.
Well, personally I spent about 5 years trying in Seattle. Endless meetups, volunteering, local events, you name it. But without a Facebook presence, trying to make friends or date or build a life is like trying to make water flow uphill.
There's only so long that you can try and so much that you can do before you give up in despair. At some point, you have to acknowledge that you cannot be part of a community without the participation of other people.
Maybe it is me, but when did you meet those friends? I've tried to contort myself and my personality into just about every shape that I can imagine over the course of those years. I don't think that there's anything wrong with me, and I do my best to be kinder than is necessary, but here I am.
So yes, maybe the problem is me. I hope not, but if it is and if I can't change that, then leaving society still seems like a sensible thing to do.
Yea but if you look around you and everyone seems to be antisocial to each other (removing yourself from the picture) you might be in the wrong place. If you can travel somewhere else and immediately people treat you differently than it's not you, it's the place.
Those things can help, but I have found you have to go much deeper than meetups and single one-off events. I have noticed a number of people in the current generation are kind of handicapped when it comes to forming social connections. Digital social media tools build surface level only communities in many cases. Meetups go deeper, but it is all still surface level.
One solution to this is to find a deep and meaningful hobby in your area. I have found Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (a grappling martial art) to be one such "real" community. IDK, I still think van life is a legitimate way to live, but without digging into community issues and essentially abandoning all communities there never will be any communities people can adopt.
Here is what works about BJJ and the community it builds:
1.) Doing a physically hard thing together
2.) Broad appeal, very technical if you want it to be
3.) See the same people every week for years
4.) Goal is to improve each others skills in BJJ, but it is a very difficult martial art that builds a mindset of overcoming struggle
5.) My academy we give back to our broader community through charity events, etc.
6.) Community is a mindset. I have found you have to really push and pull the younger generations out of their shell and show them how to socialize to some extent.
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Of course those qualities above aren't the only qualities that build a community but there are common themes. Working together to pull each other up with a perceivable sense of forward progress is a big element. I am not such a pessimist about communities and the current generation, but I definitely see how digital media and social media have stunted real communities in favor of shallower ones.
Thank you for your insight. What you say resonates a lot with my experience, and I'm glad that you've found something which brings people around you together in a positive way.
I heard the same exact sort of complaints before the internet existed as even a niche thing for the ubernerds. Industrialization is a common culprit but given the "urge to go away adventuring or sailing" I suspect base human condition personally.
On a related note about community it brings to mind Fight Club, Rent, and other "pre-Great Recession" aging very poorly as bitching about your cozy office job which pays the rent handily just came across as a spoiled rich kid to those in the downturn.
This crystallizes something I've been thinking for a while. A major source of community in the past has been religious groups. What makes membership in a church great at establishing community line up very closely with your 6 points.
But as religion continues it's slow death, it's not been clear what replaces this important role of building community in our society. Hobby groups/clubs is at least one of the answers. My own hobby of mountaineering and climbing is very similar to yours of BJJ. Religion is basically just a glorified shared interest club that you're born into.
Something I haven't seen talked much about is how we financially support these types of groups. A lot of clubs either rely exclusively on volunteer effort and therefore are very fragile or high membership fees (like BJJ studios) that are out of reach for most people.
Yeah... BJJ is not a perfect solution, but it is a real community and we try to be very inclusive. So, if someone truly can't afford the fees, they can often teach classes or do a certain number of hours of work around the gym cleaning up after class, etc. Churches and large community gatherings foster a sense of "we are in this together". It is the oldest social safety net in the books probably, where you know when you are a part of this group, even if you fall on hard times, these people are here for you. BJJ is the same way. In a visceral way, like if shit is going down, I know these guys and gals have my back, but also in a community sense of if I am ever hungry, there are people who will help me out. It is definitely a challenge in modern society. I am not sure the mega-church style community needs "replacing" so much as people need to really buy into the concept of their place of residence as a genuine community and not just a bunch of silo'd off individuals. Of course politics and government policy does a lot to encourage/discourage this at a macro level (fostering segmentation in the population and outright disdain for our neighbors, who happen to be poor, etc... but that is a whole different discussion).
This is a great way to look at it. Repetitive meeting is definitely foundational to building relationships. Activities that involve some sort of accomplishment or triumph especially, like BJJ for you.
I didn't really put that together until now, but you're totally right. As a CS student, I've had group projects that involve regular meetings and a large project is developed over the course of a semester. Seeing my team mates constantly helps form bonds, but the wins and triumphs are probably the most influential.
I still remember submitting a project in the library at 2am and cheering that we were finally done. We got together for pizza and video games later that week for a more formal celebration.
My experience has been in any place with a high concentration of transplants (Seattle, London) many are expecting third parties like Meetups to form the community when the hard part is the actually asking people to spend time together and then following up, even if the interest starts asymmetric. It is akin to dating.
The Wikipedia article on "Seattle Freeze" suggests there might be something to Washington's introversion.
> While some residents dispute the existence of the Seattle Freeze, a 2008 peer-reviewed study published in Perspectives on Psychological Science found that among all 50 states, Washington residents ranked 48th in the personality trait extraversion. In 2014 a similar report by the Seattle CityClub ranked the population 48th out of 50 similarly-sized cities in activities such as "talking with neighbors frequently".
I live in the pnw and have lots of really good friends. Only moved here a few years ago but have found more acceptance and deep connections here than the south.
It's taken those years to break through the shells but people repeatedly tell me they like hanging out with me because I listen. I empathize. I'm genuine. I'm authentic.
You have to be real. Be committed to your fellow human beings. There's a dearth of that up here. A lot of judgemental people. Closed minds. Antagonism.
But if you are patient and keep letting people show you who they are and be who they are they'll cine to love you.
We need more people like that up here. They are here. Keep the good ones close and more will collect.
I am so happy I found my place. The weather is gross right now. People are staying inside shivering and will be until May next year. Try the library. Ask people questions.
I hear the same things repeatedly. No one says hi. No one smiles. No one approaches me. Do those things. People long for that.
As much as you want people to do that for you, they want it too. Be kind. reach out. Continue with the responsive ones.
Would you like to get coffee sometime? One on one works well with introverts.
While I would love to get coffee, I live in New Orleans now. You mention weather right now being gross up there, which I remember clearly. Today it will be 72 and sunny here. I wonder if the weather causes social issues, unknowingly?
I don't think there's any question it does. When you travel enough in the tropics it becomes glaringly obvious. Anyone who thinks weather doesn't affect how people act should try flying from whatever northern latitude place they live in the dead of winter to a tropical place and observe the locals, I guarantee you'll see a lot more smiling and happy looking people than where you just came from
Sometimes it just makes sense to go somewhere else, either temporarily or permanently. People are influenced by their environment and trying to change it can be as futile as trying to live forever. We only have so much time here in this life. If everyone in a place seems a certain way you don't like then it can be healthy to visit other places at least for sake of comparison
I use a Garmin inreach - the mini one is a little hard to use on its own because of the small monochrome display, but it pairs to your phone with bluetooth and has a nice companion app.
Also, the EarthMate app has a nice mapping interface which shows things like topographic maps and major trails, and it lets you download maps ahead of time in varying levels of detail for offline use.
>And it's not expensive. Personally, I spent less than $25k
That's quite expensive to a large percentage of the country. 19% of the country grosses less than that annually [1].
Van life, living in a THOW (tiny house on wheels) etc is very much a luxury in the vast majority of cases (probably why you tend to see a lot of CS/tech types with individual salaries 2-3x the median household income doing it).
> it is impossible to meet people or build communities.
That really just depends on what you choose to do with your free time. If you are at all religious, regularly attending religious services where you live is all but certain to give you the opportunity (unless you go to a 'mega' church).
There are things like Freemasonry, Independent Order of Odd Fellows, CrossFit/barbell clubs/strongman facilities, organized bowling leagues, Toastmasters, LUGs (Lego User Groups - adult lego groups), vintage computer clubs, game stores that have regular tabletop and trading card game playing times, the SCA (Society for Creative Anachronism - period accurate medieval reenactment), other living history groups, adult softball/basketball leagues, supper clubs, etc.
Keep in mind that $25k for the van is for a home and transport. Where else can you get a home/transportation combo for that price? Sure there can be fees for places to park but the overall total cost to live has to be significantly lower than all of us in the rat race paying city rent or McMansion mortgages.
A lot of places? There is a pretty significant portion of the country where you can get a downpayment on a house for $10k and pick up a nice enough used car for a couple thousand. There are more options then living in an expensive city, a mcmansion, and a van.
I'm not trying to argue whether or not an RV or a cheap house is going to be less expensive, a question I am not interested in. It's in disputing the assertion that you can't afford a home and transportation for less than $25k and the idea that your only choice is an expensive inner city apartment, a mcmansion, or a van.
Fuck your 'downpayment'. That's exactly what people are rejecting - the idea that they should simply become a serf to some previous landowner for multiple decades because they happened to be born later.
A van may have maintenance, but it's not rent-seeking behaviour.
Social dancing too. Most major cities have at least some scene for each of swing, salsa, ballroom, and tango. And typically you can actually hear people over the music, so it is actually possible to go and socialize, and it's perfectly acceptable to show up alone, without a big posse.
That said, if you do this, please do not be creepy— at least in the swing dance scenes I was involved in in (Toronto, Seattle, New York), the overwhelming majority of people were there to have fun dancing, not to hook up or be hit on.
Beautiful analysis on the less tangible benefits of van life.
The benefit of van life for me it was the fact that if you're not rich, you spend all your time simply surviving in this current economy and can never truly thrive and follow your dreams, whether that's meeting people, or chasing a hobby project, or working a lower paying job to make the world a better place. Your job is to just survive.
For example:
30%+ of our income goes to taxes
20%-30%+ to rent + utilities
15% to student loans(if you have any).
10%+ (or way more if you're sick) to healthcare
5% to a car payment + insurance + gas
After all of that you only get 20%ish of your paycheck?
Then you have retirement to worry about because you can't rely on social security anymore.
Slavery still exists it's just expanded to include every race.
Van life at least frees you from that extra 20% plus it frees you from signing a 2 year lease obligation just to have a place to live. And in a job market that is chaotic you may have to move sooner than that so van life gives you the freedom to choose your life a lot better and is actually a lot more financially responsible.
"Slavery still exists it's just expanded to include every race." This is a very tasteless comment.
It's also just flat out wrong. For the vast majority of human history, and in many countries today, people had to work more than 40 hours a week just to supply themselves and their family with food, shelter, and clothing. We live in a time of immense wealth and leisure relative to the lives of most people.
This is only true because the authors are trying to use a capitalist definition of work to a precaptialist society. There was a huge amount of time spent on household tasks like mending clothes, preparing food, doing repairs, spinning clothes etc.
The article also talks about how peasants took frequent rests, but this is because they were doing extremely physically demanding work, not because they had a chill schedule.
Edit: A great example is that in Mexico and the American Southwest one of a woman's traditional tasks was grinding corn by hand, which could take up to 5 hours for her families supply. Other areas of the world that ate grains and didn't have access to mills would have had to spend a similar amount of time.
Idk, Americans also spend a lot of time on things that are necessary like that:
Cleaning, paying taxes, commuting, exercise (because most workers don't get it at work anymore), buying and cooking food, taking care of house and car, laundry, etc.
I huge amount of time is spent on those things and that wasn't included in the 40 hours.
You're right that I shouldn't have used the 40 hours in my first most as it isn't an apples to apples comparison. The fact remains though that in comparison people in first world countries today have much more time that doesn't have to be spent on productive tasks then people in most of history. Cooking food list in your example took much more time in the past, and cars require much less maintenance then a car.
>The average American works more today then a medieval peasant
The average medieval peasant was illiterate, slept on straw, had to work if they were sick and God forbid they broke a bone they would likely have the bone set incorrectly handicapping them to varying degrees for the rest of their life.
The average American has air conditioning, electric or gas heat, a smartphone, watches television several hours a week and rarely has to worry about food poisoning or getting intestinal parasites.
Give up the air conditioning, the car, the 3000$ laptop every 2-3 years, the 1200$ smartphone every 18-24 months, the Netflix/Hulu/Disney+/Spotify subscriptions, never purchase a single item that is (or contains a component that was) imported, the exotic vacations 0.5-4x a year, the 4-9$ cup of coffee 1-3x a day and that food delivery service you use 1-7x a week, running water and all electricity at your residence and you too could work considerably less.
Having to work is not slavery. Wild animals work and they're as free as free gets. Work is a necessity of survival, the necessities of life require labor to create/get and it's on you to carry your own weight, that's not slavery, that's reality.
This is such an antiquated heavy handed perspective.
How much work is the right amount of work?
40 hours? 80 hours?
Are people working 2 jobs but still not making ends meet not 'pulling their own weight'?
How does supply and demand figure into this? Are people who get automated out of a job no longer pulling their own weight?
Does the fact that someone exploits their employees and only pays them 10% of the value that they generate while keeping the 90% meant that business owner is just 'pulling their own weight'?
According to your missing definition of 'pulling your own weight' slavery back in the 1800 could be viewed as just people 'pulling their own weight'.
Are people in towns where no jobs are available even though they want to work...just not 'pulling their own weight'?
Your simplifications are not well thought out and frankly stupid.
Yeahhh, this post reeks of 'I am better than everyone else' and also 'I do not understand why nobody wants to be my friend'. Maybe the two are related.
Now I could be totally wrong, text communication can come off in an unintended way as you know.
One of the good places that I have been has been recently is Indian Creek in Utah.
There were a lot of folks living in vans in dispersed camping, just hanging out and climbing.
I found it very easy to meet folks in that community. Specifically, I've found it easy to just walk up to a camp fire and introduce myself. Lots of folks are looking for partners to climb with.
I love to climb, but there is definitely a side-benefit of being able to meet a bunch of people who have motivations to do similar things, and climbing lends itself well to dirt-bagging.
I can't comment on other subcultures or sports. My experiences with musicians has been similar, though.
I think a good middle ground is to buy a cheap piece of land outside of the city, and putting a small/cheap structure on it. RV/Camper, converted shed (Tiny houses are nice, but $$$).
Live off grid and the only cost you'd pay is property taxes.
Maybe, but you would still be tied to one place without any people around, and I can't imagine having to live like this without being able to run away. Personally, I'm sort of hoping for an immediately fatal motorcycle crash before I have to worry about going back to work, but I'll probably stick with renting if that doesn't pan out. In the meantime, there's an old joke that brings me comfort:
A person is running from an angry bear when they stumble off a cliff and get snagged by a strawberry bush, which is in full bloom. Looking up, they see the bear watching them patiently. Looking down, they see a sheer cliff and a fatal drop with no handholds. Certain death above, certain death below, and the person won't survive long without water. What should they do?
As a skier and mountain biker, this content is incredible!!! Thank you. I imagine pinkbike would post this on their home page in and instant!! This is awesome, if you make it to SF, try to ride Pacifica, and Skeggs, and Fairfax.
Great lifestyle and impressive that their site holds up to the HN front page effect with heavy media assets.
I think this kind of lifestyle will only get more common and popular as younger people decide that the middle class dream of a large home and life in an office is not what they want.
I made a similar decision to this couple, but instead of living in a van, my wife and I sold an expensive house on the beach and bought a very small house in the mountains (Sedona Arizona) 21 years ago. Except for working onsite for Google and Capital One for a total of just a few years, most of my time was enjoying life with occasional consulting work. Like the couple in this article, my wife and I decided that “leaving money on the table” and working much less was a good idea.
As the nomad life style becomes more popular, I wonder if traditional RV park businesses will start to cater to people traveling and living in smaller vans.
> as younger people decide that the middle class dream of a large home and life in an office is not what they want.
A lot (most?) young middle class people can't afford a large home anymore and I think that's one of the reasons all these alternative lifestyles are popping up in the last decade.
My wife and I made the same decision - I sold most of my equity in my business, stuck the apartment in the city on Airbnb, and moved to an ancient water mill in the countryside near a backwater of a backwater. We spent three years wandering the earth, before settling down here - it’s only been a few months, but walking out straight into nature is glorious, rain or shine.
I do a bit of consulting, maybe 20 days a year, and the Airbnb pays the mortgage and overheads at the apartment - a residential let wouldn’t, unfortunately.
It’s a simple and quiet life, but we’re both less stressed and happier than we ever were in mechanistic life.
I think we are at a tipping point - we have the technology and the means to make this kind of lifestyle possible. Only a few years ago having power and internet access here would have been impossible. Now, solar is cheap and easy, as is hydro (next project!), and sticking an LTE relay mast up a hill was a trivial job.
We are still following an old way of thinking, in general, while we could instead be reaping the benefits of the technical uplift our society has realised, and living a life we left so long ago we barely remember it - but with modern comforts.
This is a small home - a bedroom, a bathroom, a living room, a shed - 90sqm total. It’s everything we need. If we have a family, we build a cabin, or a yurt, and we expand our infrastructure as needed. We have hot and cold running water, more power than we can use, fast internet, underfloor heating (next week - working on it), and we’ve only been working and living here for two months.
I can see myself living here indefinitely, and as a result of our vastly reduced overheads, even our reduced income gives us a sizeable budget for travel.
I think it’s crazy to live any other way. So do an awful lot of others who have done or are doing the same as us - we’re far from alone in our direction.
Currently most RV parks are very discriminatory against people in vans or even older RV's. There's definitely a market for new places to appeal to these types of people
In their write-up about Internet vanlife, they mention that they use Google Maps location sharing, which does work. If anyone needs an open source, non-google solution for sharing and tracking your location with others, OwnTracks works great. It needs a server set up somewhere with a web server, app, database and MQTT, but it works well. I love it for tracking my travels.
Legend! Exactly what I’ve been looking for. I had been using Maps.me, but it only tracks for 24 hours, which leads to a lot of manual labour to permanently record the data.
I find these articles (and videos on Youtube) fascinating!
> “with all these amenities, you’re trying to replicate an RV; that’s not what’s Vanlife is about. You’re not gonna like it.“
For some, that's the point. A lot of people who do this park in places where an RV attracts unwanted attention. Some people like being able to park somewhere and no one has any clue that someone's living inside.
In my case, my HOA prevents RVs. These kind of articles are fascinating, because I can park a van in my driveway. Maybe some day I'll convert a van into a "stealth" RV so I don't violate my HOA!
My Winnebago motorhome gets about 7mpg or about 33L/100km and has a 80 gallon tank, but its 32ft long and I tow my Jeep behind it. 14.7 mpg would be amazing.
The important bit is at the beginning: "ask for RAMQ coverage". The reason their whole is not irresponsible is that Quebec is paying for their healthcare.
The number of entrepreneurships and startups that don't happen in the US because of lack of affordable employment-independent healthcare is uncountably high. Your choices are: roll the dice or marry someone with a "regular" job.
The whole idea doesn’t seem sustainable without the affiliate marketing link clicks.
So if your lifestyle website isn’t popular, well, this isn’t an option. Anyone else would just run out of money (and you have to be in the top 10% of earners to have the flexibility to try this idea in the first place).
The website authors think they aren’t like those Instagrammers who “somehow” afford to do this, but in a lot of ways, they’re the same: they’re selling an idea and a dream that is not realistic for most people.
Your point is a good one, although there are always portable jobs like author/writer, software development, or field service. You can also work a regular seasonal job & migrate with the weather, e.g. raft guiding & ski patrolling.
I once came across a guy who delivered camper trailers cross country as a job.
I recently bought a Ford transit connect, which is the compact version of the transit van they described. I’ve been converting it into a weekend camper and having so much fun in the process. DIY resources for van conversions are abundant (the vanual, YouTube, etc) and I ended up designing a system of hinges and moving panels to hold a bed (actually two large Purple pet mattresses joined together) and organize my climbing/camping gear.
I still wanted a home in SF, but was disillusioned by how much I was willing to pay for a glamorous apartment in a Soma high rise. I first used the van to move out and sell the things I didn’t need, which turned out to be almost everything. I’m renting a small room in a cheaper part of town now that only has a mattress on the floor, and I drive the van to work on weekdays and to Yosemite on the weekends. I’ve become a much stronger climber and rediscovered simple joys of life. I didn’t need to save the money but I certainly did need to save my health and happiness.
I've got a bedroom in an apartment in Durango and a pickup with a topper... the mattress on the floor is some foam that I got cut to fit where I sleep in the topper. I moved out to SW CO from Austin, and I haven't bothered getting a "real" bed. For a while I thought I was sleeping poorly cause of the mattress setup but I started taking magnesium and (possibly psychosomaticly) that's resolved.
My climbing has gotten much, much better, too. And it's finally ski / ice climbing season.
There's a lot going on here, though obviously not as much as in Austin.
I've found folks to play music with, found a software dev meetup, and made a couple of friends through my roommate.
If I were looking to find a partner, I think it might be a bit thin on resources. But for finding a bunch of people who are into outdoor sports and living in a small town, I think that it'd be hard to find much of a better spot.
The website is working under heavy load but holy cow is it not optimal. A 32mb webpage with 17mb of just javascript? Is this the power of a mature wordpress site?
Im not a no script person, but this page murdered my 4 year old mobile phone.
It would be nice to see blog tempting services move more towards being more minimal in their resource usage. I can't blame the bloggers themselves if they aren't technical, I can only hope that themes or templates that don't over use unnecessary JS grow in popularity.
111 comments
[ 5.2 ms ] story [ 221 ms ] threadEspecially with mountain biking and snow sports that could have been really ugly. Glad it turned out okay.
They're Canadian, so it's not as big an issue for them.
I was using freecampsites.net, but once I found iOverlander I never looked back.
I dread the day of a “massive update” destroying all that is beautiful about it.
There's definitely money to be made there with even relatively low conversion rates, after that snow blower bounty I started keeping a mental list of any podcasts or other content creators I like have amazon affiliate links on their sites and I always drive my larger Amazon purchases through by clicking one of their links first.
And it's not expensive. Personally, I spent less than $25k on a DIY RV, and that included solar power and a new motorcycle.
I wouldn't say that I'm happy - it's still harrowingly lonely. But I'm less unhappy than I was when I was working in a big city. There's something calming about nature, and the US is enormously beautiful.
And I think that, ironically, there are a lot of people like me out there. People who feel disgusted with our current culture, who don't judge new acquaintances by their mutual friends list entries, and who are genuinely interested in improving the state of the world and the experiences of the people around us. But we have no way to connect, so we wander off and bide our time in the vain hope that someday we will find a world ready to accept us. Until then, there's really nothing to do but smell the roses.
One thing I didn't see called out is how often you'll be without cell signal, but I've only skimmed the article so far. I'd recommend getting a satellite beacon if you decide to do this, if only so that you can reliably get weather reports and send messages in an emergency.
this attitude is exactly WHY it's so hard to meet people or build communities.
There's only so long that you can try and so much that you can do before you give up in despair. At some point, you have to acknowledge that you cannot be part of a community without the participation of other people.
If you've tried this many times and keep failing maybe the problem is with you.
So yes, maybe the problem is me. I hope not, but if it is and if I can't change that, then leaving society still seems like a sensible thing to do.
"If one day, you meet an asshole - then you met an asshole. If one day, you meet a hundred assholes - then you're an asshole."
A bit harsh, perhaps, but still relevant.
It is difficult.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Freeze
One solution to this is to find a deep and meaningful hobby in your area. I have found Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (a grappling martial art) to be one such "real" community. IDK, I still think van life is a legitimate way to live, but without digging into community issues and essentially abandoning all communities there never will be any communities people can adopt.
Here is what works about BJJ and the community it builds:
1.) Doing a physically hard thing together
2.) Broad appeal, very technical if you want it to be
3.) See the same people every week for years
4.) Goal is to improve each others skills in BJJ, but it is a very difficult martial art that builds a mindset of overcoming struggle
5.) My academy we give back to our broader community through charity events, etc.
6.) Community is a mindset. I have found you have to really push and pull the younger generations out of their shell and show them how to socialize to some extent.
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Of course those qualities above aren't the only qualities that build a community but there are common themes. Working together to pull each other up with a perceivable sense of forward progress is a big element. I am not such a pessimist about communities and the current generation, but I definitely see how digital media and social media have stunted real communities in favor of shallower ones.
On a related note about community it brings to mind Fight Club, Rent, and other "pre-Great Recession" aging very poorly as bitching about your cozy office job which pays the rent handily just came across as a spoiled rich kid to those in the downturn.
But as religion continues it's slow death, it's not been clear what replaces this important role of building community in our society. Hobby groups/clubs is at least one of the answers. My own hobby of mountaineering and climbing is very similar to yours of BJJ. Religion is basically just a glorified shared interest club that you're born into.
Something I haven't seen talked much about is how we financially support these types of groups. A lot of clubs either rely exclusively on volunteer effort and therefore are very fragile or high membership fees (like BJJ studios) that are out of reach for most people.
I didn't really put that together until now, but you're totally right. As a CS student, I've had group projects that involve regular meetings and a large project is developed over the course of a semester. Seeing my team mates constantly helps form bonds, but the wins and triumphs are probably the most influential.
I still remember submitting a project in the library at 2am and cheering that we were finally done. We got together for pizza and video games later that week for a more formal celebration.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Freeze
> While some residents dispute the existence of the Seattle Freeze, a 2008 peer-reviewed study published in Perspectives on Psychological Science found that among all 50 states, Washington residents ranked 48th in the personality trait extraversion. In 2014 a similar report by the Seattle CityClub ranked the population 48th out of 50 similarly-sized cities in activities such as "talking with neighbors frequently".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Freeze
It's taken those years to break through the shells but people repeatedly tell me they like hanging out with me because I listen. I empathize. I'm genuine. I'm authentic.
You have to be real. Be committed to your fellow human beings. There's a dearth of that up here. A lot of judgemental people. Closed minds. Antagonism.
But if you are patient and keep letting people show you who they are and be who they are they'll cine to love you.
We need more people like that up here. They are here. Keep the good ones close and more will collect.
I am so happy I found my place. The weather is gross right now. People are staying inside shivering and will be until May next year. Try the library. Ask people questions.
I hear the same things repeatedly. No one says hi. No one smiles. No one approaches me. Do those things. People long for that.
As much as you want people to do that for you, they want it too. Be kind. reach out. Continue with the responsive ones.
Would you like to get coffee sometime? One on one works well with introverts.
So how do you create beautiful interpersonal landscapes which only involve one person?
https://explore.garmin.com/en-US/inreach/
Also, the EarthMate app has a nice mapping interface which shows things like topographic maps and major trails, and it lets you download maps ahead of time in varying levels of detail for offline use.
That's quite expensive to a large percentage of the country. 19% of the country grosses less than that annually [1].
Van life, living in a THOW (tiny house on wheels) etc is very much a luxury in the vast majority of cases (probably why you tend to see a lot of CS/tech types with individual salaries 2-3x the median household income doing it).
> it is impossible to meet people or build communities.
That really just depends on what you choose to do with your free time. If you are at all religious, regularly attending religious services where you live is all but certain to give you the opportunity (unless you go to a 'mega' church).
There are things like Freemasonry, Independent Order of Odd Fellows, CrossFit/barbell clubs/strongman facilities, organized bowling leagues, Toastmasters, LUGs (Lego User Groups - adult lego groups), vintage computer clubs, game stores that have regular tabletop and trading card game playing times, the SCA (Society for Creative Anachronism - period accurate medieval reenactment), other living history groups, adult softball/basketball leagues, supper clubs, etc.
[1] https://wallethacks.com/average-median-income-in-america/#Me...
1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21722874
I can’t imagine there are many places in the US where you can purchase a home and car for less than $25k. Total purchase price, not down payment.
I don't own an RV, but I've owned two houses and I'm guessing the RV monthly expenses will be quite a bit lower.
Fuck your 'downpayment'. That's exactly what people are rejecting - the idea that they should simply become a serf to some previous landowner for multiple decades because they happened to be born later.
A van may have maintenance, but it's not rent-seeking behaviour.
and no kids.
That said, if you do this, please do not be creepy— at least in the swing dance scenes I was involved in in (Toronto, Seattle, New York), the overwhelming majority of people were there to have fun dancing, not to hook up or be hit on.
The benefit of van life for me it was the fact that if you're not rich, you spend all your time simply surviving in this current economy and can never truly thrive and follow your dreams, whether that's meeting people, or chasing a hobby project, or working a lower paying job to make the world a better place. Your job is to just survive.
For example:
30%+ of our income goes to taxes
20%-30%+ to rent + utilities
15% to student loans(if you have any).
10%+ (or way more if you're sick) to healthcare
5% to a car payment + insurance + gas
After all of that you only get 20%ish of your paycheck?
Then you have retirement to worry about because you can't rely on social security anymore.
Slavery still exists it's just expanded to include every race.
Van life at least frees you from that extra 20% plus it frees you from signing a 2 year lease obligation just to have a place to live. And in a job market that is chaotic you may have to move sooner than that so van life gives you the freedom to choose your life a lot better and is actually a lot more financially responsible.
https://allthatsinteresting.com/medieval-peasants-vacation-m...
We live in a time of immense wealth, but not leisure.
The article also talks about how peasants took frequent rests, but this is because they were doing extremely physically demanding work, not because they had a chill schedule.
Edit: A great example is that in Mexico and the American Southwest one of a woman's traditional tasks was grinding corn by hand, which could take up to 5 hours for her families supply. Other areas of the world that ate grains and didn't have access to mills would have had to spend a similar amount of time.
Cleaning, paying taxes, commuting, exercise (because most workers don't get it at work anymore), buying and cooking food, taking care of house and car, laundry, etc.
I huge amount of time is spent on those things and that wasn't included in the 40 hours.
The average medieval peasant was illiterate, slept on straw, had to work if they were sick and God forbid they broke a bone they would likely have the bone set incorrectly handicapping them to varying degrees for the rest of their life.
The average American has air conditioning, electric or gas heat, a smartphone, watches television several hours a week and rarely has to worry about food poisoning or getting intestinal parasites.
Give up the air conditioning, the car, the 3000$ laptop every 2-3 years, the 1200$ smartphone every 18-24 months, the Netflix/Hulu/Disney+/Spotify subscriptions, never purchase a single item that is (or contains a component that was) imported, the exotic vacations 0.5-4x a year, the 4-9$ cup of coffee 1-3x a day and that food delivery service you use 1-7x a week, running water and all electricity at your residence and you too could work considerably less.
"what do you do for a washing machine"
"what do you do for internet"
"what do you do for heating"
"what do you do for air conditioning"
"what is your toilet setup"
"what do you cook on"
"what sort of PV system do you have"
How much work is the right amount of work? 40 hours? 80 hours? Are people working 2 jobs but still not making ends meet not 'pulling their own weight'?
How does supply and demand figure into this? Are people who get automated out of a job no longer pulling their own weight?
Does the fact that someone exploits their employees and only pays them 10% of the value that they generate while keeping the 90% meant that business owner is just 'pulling their own weight'?
According to your missing definition of 'pulling your own weight' slavery back in the 1800 could be viewed as just people 'pulling their own weight'.
Are people in towns where no jobs are available even though they want to work...just not 'pulling their own weight'?
Your simplifications are not well thought out and frankly stupid.
Now I could be totally wrong, text communication can come off in an unintended way as you know.
There were a lot of folks living in vans in dispersed camping, just hanging out and climbing.
I found it very easy to meet folks in that community. Specifically, I've found it easy to just walk up to a camp fire and introduce myself. Lots of folks are looking for partners to climb with.
I love to climb, but there is definitely a side-benefit of being able to meet a bunch of people who have motivations to do similar things, and climbing lends itself well to dirt-bagging.
I can't comment on other subcultures or sports. My experiences with musicians has been similar, though.
I think a good middle ground is to buy a cheap piece of land outside of the city, and putting a small/cheap structure on it. RV/Camper, converted shed (Tiny houses are nice, but $$$).
Live off grid and the only cost you'd pay is property taxes.
A person is running from an angry bear when they stumble off a cliff and get snagged by a strawberry bush, which is in full bloom. Looking up, they see the bear watching them patiently. Looking down, they see a sheer cliff and a fatal drop with no handholds. Certain death above, certain death below, and the person won't survive long without water. What should they do?
Answer: eat the strawberries.
Except we have a baby so our activities and spare time are more limited.
I think this kind of lifestyle will only get more common and popular as younger people decide that the middle class dream of a large home and life in an office is not what they want.
I made a similar decision to this couple, but instead of living in a van, my wife and I sold an expensive house on the beach and bought a very small house in the mountains (Sedona Arizona) 21 years ago. Except for working onsite for Google and Capital One for a total of just a few years, most of my time was enjoying life with occasional consulting work. Like the couple in this article, my wife and I decided that “leaving money on the table” and working much less was a good idea.
As the nomad life style becomes more popular, I wonder if traditional RV park businesses will start to cater to people traveling and living in smaller vans.
A lot (most?) young middle class people can't afford a large home anymore and I think that's one of the reasons all these alternative lifestyles are popping up in the last decade.
edit: https://www.investmentwatchblog.com/where-the-american-dream...
I do a bit of consulting, maybe 20 days a year, and the Airbnb pays the mortgage and overheads at the apartment - a residential let wouldn’t, unfortunately.
It’s a simple and quiet life, but we’re both less stressed and happier than we ever were in mechanistic life.
I think we are at a tipping point - we have the technology and the means to make this kind of lifestyle possible. Only a few years ago having power and internet access here would have been impossible. Now, solar is cheap and easy, as is hydro (next project!), and sticking an LTE relay mast up a hill was a trivial job.
We are still following an old way of thinking, in general, while we could instead be reaping the benefits of the technical uplift our society has realised, and living a life we left so long ago we barely remember it - but with modern comforts.
This is a small home - a bedroom, a bathroom, a living room, a shed - 90sqm total. It’s everything we need. If we have a family, we build a cabin, or a yurt, and we expand our infrastructure as needed. We have hot and cold running water, more power than we can use, fast internet, underfloor heating (next week - working on it), and we’ve only been working and living here for two months.
I can see myself living here indefinitely, and as a result of our vastly reduced overheads, even our reduced income gives us a sizeable budget for travel.
I think it’s crazy to live any other way. So do an awful lot of others who have done or are doing the same as us - we’re far from alone in our direction.
https://owntracks.org/booklet/guide/whathow/
> “with all these amenities, you’re trying to replicate an RV; that’s not what’s Vanlife is about. You’re not gonna like it.“
For some, that's the point. A lot of people who do this park in places where an RV attracts unwanted attention. Some people like being able to park somewhere and no one has any clue that someone's living inside.
In my case, my HOA prevents RVs. These kind of articles are fascinating, because I can park a van in my driveway. Maybe some day I'll convert a van into a "stealth" RV so I don't violate my HOA!
Thanks to whoever posted the link!
The secret is out these days, you can camp quietly but people will know what you are up to.
Pfiou, that's more gas than the three cars in my extended family :-/
The number of entrepreneurships and startups that don't happen in the US because of lack of affordable employment-independent healthcare is uncountably high. Your choices are: roll the dice or marry someone with a "regular" job.
So if your lifestyle website isn’t popular, well, this isn’t an option. Anyone else would just run out of money (and you have to be in the top 10% of earners to have the flexibility to try this idea in the first place).
The website authors think they aren’t like those Instagrammers who “somehow” afford to do this, but in a lot of ways, they’re the same: they’re selling an idea and a dream that is not realistic for most people.
I once came across a guy who delivered camper trailers cross country as a job.
I still wanted a home in SF, but was disillusioned by how much I was willing to pay for a glamorous apartment in a Soma high rise. I first used the van to move out and sell the things I didn’t need, which turned out to be almost everything. I’m renting a small room in a cheaper part of town now that only has a mattress on the floor, and I drive the van to work on weekdays and to Yosemite on the weekends. I’ve become a much stronger climber and rediscovered simple joys of life. I didn’t need to save the money but I certainly did need to save my health and happiness.
I've got a bedroom in an apartment in Durango and a pickup with a topper... the mattress on the floor is some foam that I got cut to fit where I sleep in the topper. I moved out to SW CO from Austin, and I haven't bothered getting a "real" bed. For a while I thought I was sleeping poorly cause of the mattress setup but I started taking magnesium and (possibly psychosomaticly) that's resolved.
My climbing has gotten much, much better, too. And it's finally ski / ice climbing season.
I've found folks to play music with, found a software dev meetup, and made a couple of friends through my roommate.
If I were looking to find a partner, I think it might be a bit thin on resources. But for finding a bunch of people who are into outdoor sports and living in a small town, I think that it'd be hard to find much of a better spot.
Im not a no script person, but this page murdered my 4 year old mobile phone.