This sounds weird at first, but it makes perfect sense. Anyone can make an EV. It's not hard. What sets them apart is the battery, and Sony knows LiPo batteries better than almost anyone.
It took Tesla 5 years to essentially just swap the powertrain + rebadge a Lotus Elise, another 5 and millions in investment before their first in house design.
I don’t think automotive or manufacturing engineering have changed all that much in the last 10 years compared to the previous 100....
ICE manufacturers make a platform and use it for years, sometimes decades, with only relatively minor tweaks. The hard part as I understand it is literally everything else about manufacture, something which will be broadly shared with EVs.
The hard part is precisely that they want to reuse that platform, and just replace the engine with a battery and motors. Designing an electric vehicle from scratch today is infinitely easier than an ICE, both in complexity, skills required, number of parts and manufacturing.
I would interpret that data precisely the opposite: designing and manufacturing a new car is hard, swapping out the power plant is much easier. Thousands of Ford and Toyota engineers are doing something and it isn't redesigning an ICE engine every year.
>It took Tesla 5 years to essentially just swap the powertrain + rebadge a Lotus Elise, another 5 and millions in investment before their first in house design.
15 years ago, sure. But EVs are mature tech at this point. Nissan has been pumping them out at volume for nearly a decade now. Every other manufacturer now has at least one or two models in development or coming to market. The only differentiating factor is the ability to produce high quality batteries in massive volume.
This is why Nissan was so successful with the Leaf. They had their own battery production facilities in place to provide the volume needed. So far Tesla has been the only other manufacturer with a similar capability. It's also why the Europeans are so far behind the Japanese, Koreans, and the US in EV sales. None of them have their own battery production capacity, and are forced to buy from Panasonic or LG Chem.
>Nissan is a automobile company 80 years of history. That is hardly "anyone".
My point is that it's not rocket science or cutting edge tech. The processes are well known and defined, it's just a matter of investing the capital and putting them in place.
>The only differentiating factor is the ability to produce high quality batteries in massive volume.
Software. The differentiating factor is software. Batteries will soon commoditize. What will make cars unique is how effortless they are to interface with, and things like suspension tweaks in over the air updates. Much like the transition from N64 cartridges to DLC, they dont need to sell a finished product any longer, youre buying into an update stream. Buy from a vendor you trust to keep iterating in a way you like (increased features or increased stability.)
The only difference is that patching a game crashing bug is quite different than patching a car crashing bug. We have recalls for that reason today and many of these recalls are due to software errors not necessarily hardware defects.
I think this is the kind of car we will see in the future. Not focused on driving, but on things like decked out entertainment systems - esp be/c of things like autopilot.
Here's a question: would anyone here actually buy a hypothetical Sony car or an Apple car? Why? What would make you buy an Apple or Sony or Google car versus one from a more established automaker?
Obviously Sony has said they're not planning on actually making this car, but if they did... why would you buy it?
I think it is safe to say that a number of us are driving Teslas, so there is your answer.
I would wait for all the safety tests and such, of course, and I would wait a couple years to let them work some of the kinks out, but I would not rule out a car from a non-traditional manufacturer just 'because.'
That said, I'm not really expecting to see it happen. Unlike what someone else said in this thread, making EVs isn't so simple that just anyone can do it. Regardless of powertrain, a car is a complex machine, and mass-production is difficult. Someone like Apple certainly has the cash to make a go of it, but it's well outside their core competency so ... why?
>it's well outside their core competency so ... why?
That's the crux of my question. Tesla is a car company. It's a no-brainer to buy a car from them. Making cars is what they do, and their entire existence depends on making good cars. Apple/Sony/Google are not car companies. Making cars is not what they do, and their existence does not depend on making good cars.
If everyone waited a couple of years for them to work the kinks out, they would stop making cars because no one was buying them. Someone has to buy first, right? But why?
Because trusted media entities will get to try them out and deliver judgement that may (or may not) encourage people to take the plunge and try a test drive.
I don't think it's rocket scienc.. oh, wait, Musk's got feet in both fields there.
> If everyone waited a couple of years for them to work the kinks out, they would stop making cars because no one was buying them. Someone has to buy first, right? But why?
I imagine some version of Tesla's strategy would need to play out. I don't think Sony has the brand cachet to make an EV play work, but I absolutely think Apple does. And to a lesser extent, even Google. Tesla made it a long ways by relying on enthusiasts who would overlook much just to have the latest gadget to drive the roads. Apple has a lot of fans as well, they may be just as forgiving. Though it would be easier for me to see that happening when Jobs was still around to be a figurehead. Tim Cook is competent, but he is not a visionary leader.
I wonder if this makes it more likely or less likely that Apple releases a car someday. On the one hand, this has set a precedent for a consumer tech company making an EV. On the other hand, perhaps Sony has (exclusive) partnerships with several of the complementary companies.
I’d like to see an EV where each individual piece is made by an company with expert core competency in that area. I’ve seen too many videos of water leaking into Tesla’s.
We all laughed at Apple, 13 years ago as they entered into the smartphone industry and lo and behold, they created an entire economy out of it. Although Tesla, Toyota, etc are starting to get in on the electric car craze, now Sony is starting to test the waters. It would take some form of interesting tech and magic to get people to dump their cars for electric ones.
Perhaps Samsung will throw their hat in the ring if Apple throws in theirs, who knows. But I certainly won't buy a car designed by Mr Zuckerberg.
Do you have any data that support that claim? I found (and still do) iPhone preposterous, but certainly didn't laugh, I knew it would be success with people with too much money on their hands.
I always thought "playstation" was a clever bit of marketing on the part of Sony, who from the outset saw the console as something that everyone should play, not just the kids. At work you go to your workstation, whether that's a cashier's register, computer, or factory spot, but when you come home you go to your playstation, and have some fun.
Admittedly in 2020 the "workstation" moniker doesn't really apply to many white collar jobs, but it is sort of perfect if someone thinks about it in these terms. At least it's a better and more meaningful name than XBox
Apple had ample of experience with electronic/handheld devices... A car and a phone is an impossible comparison, best exemplified by the fact that Apple also tried and failed in this field.
The other major difference is that Sony and Samsung are major industrial conglomerates. Apple mostly makes computers, smartphones, and tablets, all of which share components.
Anecdotally, I disagree with most points you raise in this comment.
> We all laughed at Apple ... as they entered into the smartphone industry
Did we? I remember being immediately captivated by the iPhone 1. In fact, I still think the initial years of the iPhone were its peak. Yes, there were naysayers (there always are—see electric cars as another example), but I think many/most were excited.
> Tesla ... [is] starting to get in on the electric car craze
Really? Tesla is just starting to get in on this electric car craze? The Model S was released eight years ago. I feel it could be credibly said that the Model S was "getting into the electric car craze" even though the Roadster was before it. But now, with the Model 3 being two years old, the craze is here and Tesla is the focal point.
Alternatively, Amazon's Alexa was introduced two years after the Model S, so I suppose Amazon is starting to get into the home assistant craze?
> It would take some form of interesting tech and magic to get people to dump their cars for electric ones.
All sorts of people are doing exactly that. I started driving electric cars with the original MINI E in 2009 and have not bought an ICE-powered vehicle since. This is common since once you drive electric, ICE seems antiquated.
For the most part a technology demonstrator of what they could offer an established car maker. My take away.
sedans with screens like those for rear seat viewers exist already normally in the form of luxury variants driven by others. the other use of course is mini vans and crossovers/suvs where children get access to screens.
yet I am always of the belief most younger people would rather just access their own device. now if we could borrow from some recent scifi shows the ability to those swipe and push your content to internal screens would be very nice.
as to that front panorama screen set up, that might work without a steering wheel implying entertainment options for everyone as everyone is a passenger.
comparing this all to where Telsa is (TM3 owner), the setup in Tesla works because for the most part the driver never really needs to interact with the display. Most setting in modern cars are automatic and simple tasks replicate to steering wheel controls. Throw in a lot of voice commands; Tesla recently introduced dozens; and you can minimize taking focus off driving. This Sony setup appears to not consider that, it wants to be attention grabbing which it should not be in a car that requires a driver.
I wonder if there's a way to modify Android Auto/Apple Car Play for passenger viewing. That way you can use all the applications on your phone but in your car. Do email in the back of a taxi/airport limo on a big screen or watch a Youtube video with 1 tap.
People must really hate cars. I like to drive and be in control of the vehicle. Often I go for drives in the country for a couple of hours. It's not about speed it's just fun to drive a nice car.
Sure I like EVs but range (for now), lack of control, the sound of them are many things that ruin the art of driving. Pretty soon mechanical cars will be like expensive mechanical watches, rare.
I like cars, but I hate driving my commute. I hate road trips. I still like to take my car out on weekend drives. I'd rather not have to do the monotonous stuff.
Cars are transportation appliances. If they weren’t, the most popular cars wouldn’t be Toyota Highlander or Toyota Camry-style vehicles.
“Drivers cars” are already rarities. Look at yearly sales figures for something like the Mazda Miata. Look at the overall sales numbers for manual transmission vehicles. They are not increasing and non-SUV vehicles are dying out (see Ford and GM).
Cars are an expensive, depreciating liability. That’s why buying a fun car makes no sense from a financial perspective. An SUV is essentially the type of car that is least likely to be unusable for a particular task, which is why (now that the gas mileage is acceptable) it is the most popular form of vehicle.
If I buy a Miata or even a Camry, one trip to the Home Depot can leave me wishing I bought a big, slow-ish SUV.
This is a long-winded way of saying that the majority of the public won’t miss internal combustion engines. Electric cars are quiet and require less maintenance by far. Battery technology and pricing doesn’t have far to go before buying a gas car makes no sense.
There will always be enthusiast cars of some kind, for the foreseeable future, but most people have no business buying them. In my view, any emotional attachment to them has been curated over decades by car advertisements. Sure, feeling some G-forces and the wind in your hair is fun, but I can do that at an amusement park for far less money, too.
Why would people have no business buying them? The cars I like aren't influenced by ads. Simpletons buy their cars based on the auto ads they see. How many times do you go to an amusement park in a year? My 950whp car puts a smile on my face every time I'm in it, which is multiple times per day. I'll take being able to make any commute a riot, that isn't bumper to bumper, which isn't even a thing where I live, over a couple yearly trips to Great America.
Talking down to people with name-calling won’t get you anywhere. You are not superior to other people because of your choice in hobby. In no way did I say that enthusiast cars should not exist, so I’m not even sure what you’re trying to disagree with.
If you’re looking to argue just for the sake of arguing about something, that wasn’t the purpose of my comment and that’s not what you’ll get out of me.
> Sure I like EVs but range (for now), lack of control, the sound of them are many things that ruin the art of driving.
Have you driven a Tesla Model S?
I drove a friend's P90D, and I have to say it's one of the best "driving" cars I've ever driven. The steering is extremely precise, the throttle response literally demolishes any petrol vehicle, among other things.
It seems strange to me how no other company has been able to put together such an attractive package to car enthusiasts like Tesla. Porsche might be close and will eventually get there if the first attempt doesn't succeed, but it really is kind of baffling. But with Elon being a car enthusiast, maybe it makes a bit of sense. Once they're able to do something about EV's low trap speeds, I think it will be time to make the switch, or at least pick one up as a commuter car. 10 or 15 years ago I wouldn't have imagined I'd be a fan of an electric car company. I am a fan of Tesla.
I honestly think it's because they started with an entirely clean slate.
They didn't go into this saying "We're going to design a new vehicle, but it has to be built using the same factories and tooling and processes we've poured a few hundred billion dollars into."
Also remember the large auto manufacturers have hundreds of millions of R&D sunk into internal combustion engines they still need decades to re-coup.
I got a tour of a massive OEM assembly line in the US this summer, and it was utterly jaw-dropping to see how many people are paid to do the most menial tasks possibly imaginable, that could easily be replaced by a robot. I was told the Union forces those jobs to stay, and they're actually the highest paid in the entire factory.
The thing that a lot of non-enthusiasts don't get is that, with a fun car, number 2 often becomes number 1. The only time it isn't is when you're in gridlock traffic. Thankfully that doesn't happen where I live.
In the 1950s people walked to work, to get groceries, to the movies, to the hardware store etc., cars were almost not needed in cities (except delivery trucks).
Imagine how nice it would be to get off work, walk 10 minutes to get groceries, another 10 minutes are you are home with all your shopping. Then walk 10 minutes in the evening to the library or bar. This is what people want again. It was lost when we created car-centric suburbs in the 1950s as part of a large post-war housing boom.
Except that they not selling it. It's like I was trying to compete with latest iPhone by publishing renders on my website of my cool new phone concept.
I really don't get why major automakers are so late to the EV game, and still do not have a foot in the door. Even this Sony concept car does not have any major automaker collaborators. Is it just because they are too big to innovate?
All of the major manufacturers are starting their EV rollout this year. Mercedes is starting with the EQC. Honda is launching their Urban E. Toyota is planning to rollout 6 models over the next 5 years.
This will likely be the decade of the EV where Tesla starts to see some real competition in the space.
There's not any money in it. The money is in selling trucks and SUVs, at least in the states.
I've had a truck for over 13 years. Including purchase price, maintenance and gasoline, my cost over that period has been $243 per month. That was for a brand new truck. Even if electricity is free, and I bought a similar sized truck at today's prices, there's no way I'd come out ahead in an electric. If you factor in used truck prices of similar vehicles, you're 10's of thousands ahead financially. I recently paid $4500 for a 200k mileage truck, engine should last for another 150k before needing a rebuild, and I can get an entire new engine for $3700 (not including labor). How much are electric trucks going to cost to re-power?
I've done the math even for commuter cars. It never makes sense to buy electric when I can get a 40MPG car for 10-15k new. Batteries need to quadruple in efficiency and be cost competitive, or they're never going to catch on in the US.
I think cities could use good ebikes. Ones that can plug into the high-speed, high amp, chargers. Imagine charging an ebike in 3-5minutes and being able to go 70miles. People in cities would like to have an alternative to public transit and car ownership.
This is reality in Europe today. The fast charging is totally unnecessary, you just charge it at home/work where bikes are inevitably parked for many hours.
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[ 5.8 ms ] story [ 159 ms ] threadIt took Tesla 5 years to essentially just swap the powertrain + rebadge a Lotus Elise, another 5 and millions in investment before their first in house design.
ICE manufacturers make a platform and use it for years, sometimes decades, with only relatively minor tweaks. The hard part as I understand it is literally everything else about manufacture, something which will be broadly shared with EVs.
Yes, those engineers are busy dealing with the complexity I just mentioned.
15 years ago, sure. But EVs are mature tech at this point. Nissan has been pumping them out at volume for nearly a decade now. Every other manufacturer now has at least one or two models in development or coming to market. The only differentiating factor is the ability to produce high quality batteries in massive volume.
This is why Nissan was so successful with the Leaf. They had their own battery production facilities in place to provide the volume needed. So far Tesla has been the only other manufacturer with a similar capability. It's also why the Europeans are so far behind the Japanese, Koreans, and the US in EV sales. None of them have their own battery production capacity, and are forced to buy from Panasonic or LG Chem.
Nissan is a automobile company 80 years of history. That is hardly "anyone".
My point is that it's not rocket science or cutting edge tech. The processes are well known and defined, it's just a matter of investing the capital and putting them in place.
Software. The differentiating factor is software. Batteries will soon commoditize. What will make cars unique is how effortless they are to interface with, and things like suspension tweaks in over the air updates. Much like the transition from N64 cartridges to DLC, they dont need to sell a finished product any longer, youre buying into an update stream. Buy from a vendor you trust to keep iterating in a way you like (increased features or increased stability.)
Obviously Sony has said they're not planning on actually making this car, but if they did... why would you buy it?
I would wait for all the safety tests and such, of course, and I would wait a couple years to let them work some of the kinks out, but I would not rule out a car from a non-traditional manufacturer just 'because.'
That said, I'm not really expecting to see it happen. Unlike what someone else said in this thread, making EVs isn't so simple that just anyone can do it. Regardless of powertrain, a car is a complex machine, and mass-production is difficult. Someone like Apple certainly has the cash to make a go of it, but it's well outside their core competency so ... why?
That's the crux of my question. Tesla is a car company. It's a no-brainer to buy a car from them. Making cars is what they do, and their entire existence depends on making good cars. Apple/Sony/Google are not car companies. Making cars is not what they do, and their existence does not depend on making good cars.
If everyone waited a couple of years for them to work the kinks out, they would stop making cars because no one was buying them. Someone has to buy first, right? But why?
I don't think it's rocket scienc.. oh, wait, Musk's got feet in both fields there.
I imagine some version of Tesla's strategy would need to play out. I don't think Sony has the brand cachet to make an EV play work, but I absolutely think Apple does. And to a lesser extent, even Google. Tesla made it a long ways by relying on enthusiasts who would overlook much just to have the latest gadget to drive the roads. Apple has a lot of fans as well, they may be just as forgiving. Though it would be easier for me to see that happening when Jobs was still around to be a figurehead. Tim Cook is competent, but he is not a visionary leader.
Perhaps Samsung will throw their hat in the ring if Apple throws in theirs, who knows. But I certainly won't buy a car designed by Mr Zuckerberg.
Do you have any data that support that claim? I found (and still do) iPhone preposterous, but certainly didn't laugh, I knew it would be success with people with too much money on their hands.
That said, I hope Sony's only contribution is hardware. Their software is atrocious.
Admittedly in 2020 the "workstation" moniker doesn't really apply to many white collar jobs, but it is sort of perfect if someone thinks about it in these terms. At least it's a better and more meaningful name than XBox
Amazingly Microsoft has managed to fuck up the Xbox's naming even further with every iteration.
- Xbox
- Xbox 360
- Xbox One
- Xbox One X
- Xbox Series X
The attrition of cars wearing out plus tax incentives and the cheaper TCO plus electric cars hopefully getting cheaper will do that over time.
> We all laughed at Apple ... as they entered into the smartphone industry
Did we? I remember being immediately captivated by the iPhone 1. In fact, I still think the initial years of the iPhone were its peak. Yes, there were naysayers (there always are—see electric cars as another example), but I think many/most were excited.
> Tesla ... [is] starting to get in on the electric car craze
Really? Tesla is just starting to get in on this electric car craze? The Model S was released eight years ago. I feel it could be credibly said that the Model S was "getting into the electric car craze" even though the Roadster was before it. But now, with the Model 3 being two years old, the craze is here and Tesla is the focal point.
Alternatively, Amazon's Alexa was introduced two years after the Model S, so I suppose Amazon is starting to get into the home assistant craze?
> It would take some form of interesting tech and magic to get people to dump their cars for electric ones.
All sorts of people are doing exactly that. I started driving electric cars with the original MINI E in 2009 and have not bought an ICE-powered vehicle since. This is common since once you drive electric, ICE seems antiquated.
sedans with screens like those for rear seat viewers exist already normally in the form of luxury variants driven by others. the other use of course is mini vans and crossovers/suvs where children get access to screens.
yet I am always of the belief most younger people would rather just access their own device. now if we could borrow from some recent scifi shows the ability to those swipe and push your content to internal screens would be very nice.
as to that front panorama screen set up, that might work without a steering wheel implying entertainment options for everyone as everyone is a passenger.
comparing this all to where Telsa is (TM3 owner), the setup in Tesla works because for the most part the driver never really needs to interact with the display. Most setting in modern cars are automatic and simple tasks replicate to steering wheel controls. Throw in a lot of voice commands; Tesla recently introduced dozens; and you can minimize taking focus off driving. This Sony setup appears to not consider that, it wants to be attention grabbing which it should not be in a car that requires a driver.
Sure I like EVs but range (for now), lack of control, the sound of them are many things that ruin the art of driving. Pretty soon mechanical cars will be like expensive mechanical watches, rare.
“Drivers cars” are already rarities. Look at yearly sales figures for something like the Mazda Miata. Look at the overall sales numbers for manual transmission vehicles. They are not increasing and non-SUV vehicles are dying out (see Ford and GM).
Cars are an expensive, depreciating liability. That’s why buying a fun car makes no sense from a financial perspective. An SUV is essentially the type of car that is least likely to be unusable for a particular task, which is why (now that the gas mileage is acceptable) it is the most popular form of vehicle.
If I buy a Miata or even a Camry, one trip to the Home Depot can leave me wishing I bought a big, slow-ish SUV.
This is a long-winded way of saying that the majority of the public won’t miss internal combustion engines. Electric cars are quiet and require less maintenance by far. Battery technology and pricing doesn’t have far to go before buying a gas car makes no sense.
There will always be enthusiast cars of some kind, for the foreseeable future, but most people have no business buying them. In my view, any emotional attachment to them has been curated over decades by car advertisements. Sure, feeling some G-forces and the wind in your hair is fun, but I can do that at an amusement park for far less money, too.
If you’re looking to argue just for the sake of arguing about something, that wasn’t the purpose of my comment and that’s not what you’ll get out of me.
For what reason?
But I also neglected the other reason people like SUVs: driving position and ease of entry, especially with child seats.
If an SUV is priced equivalently to a car in terms of fuel costs and MSRP, it’s essentially a better choice for most people.
Have you driven a Tesla Model S?
I drove a friend's P90D, and I have to say it's one of the best "driving" cars I've ever driven. The steering is extremely precise, the throttle response literally demolishes any petrol vehicle, among other things.
They didn't go into this saying "We're going to design a new vehicle, but it has to be built using the same factories and tooling and processes we've poured a few hundred billion dollars into."
Also remember the large auto manufacturers have hundreds of millions of R&D sunk into internal combustion engines they still need decades to re-coup.
I got a tour of a massive OEM assembly line in the US this summer, and it was utterly jaw-dropping to see how many people are paid to do the most menial tasks possibly imaginable, that could easily be replaced by a robot. I was told the Union forces those jobs to stay, and they're actually the highest paid in the entire factory.
edit: Canadian dollars and taxes. No we don't have EV rebates in my province.
1. Joy ride; going for a drive to clear my mind, possibly in a motorcycle or jeep, or just your car
2. Human transport; personal bus/taxi
95% of the time spent in your personal vehicle is use case #2. Nobody is arguing (yet) to take away motorcycles, corvettes, jeeps etc
This will likely be the decade of the EV where Tesla starts to see some real competition in the space.
I've had a truck for over 13 years. Including purchase price, maintenance and gasoline, my cost over that period has been $243 per month. That was for a brand new truck. Even if electricity is free, and I bought a similar sized truck at today's prices, there's no way I'd come out ahead in an electric. If you factor in used truck prices of similar vehicles, you're 10's of thousands ahead financially. I recently paid $4500 for a 200k mileage truck, engine should last for another 150k before needing a rebuild, and I can get an entire new engine for $3700 (not including labor). How much are electric trucks going to cost to re-power?
I've done the math even for commuter cars. It never makes sense to buy electric when I can get a 40MPG car for 10-15k new. Batteries need to quadruple in efficiency and be cost competitive, or they're never going to catch on in the US.
I think the future is commuting carts. Small, electric vehicles that aren't on main roads that can cruise 20-30 mph and hold 1-4 people.