What's "wrong" about this? No one has provided any evidence of manipulation other than speculation. Maybe people are interested in Samsung's display technology?
I don't know how to provide evidence of manipulation as an outside observer. I was pointing out that it does seem strange. But maybe this is the course of HN nowadays.
Is the difference that Apple product launches are (not exclusively) intended for consumers whereas the Wall is aimed almost exclusively at large business's lobbies?
... and for luxury living. Luxury car launches are covered on the hn frontpage as well, e.g. that weird car whose windows Elon broke... probably increasing its value in the process.
Please don't break the site guidelines by insinuating astroturfing or shillage and whatnot. It's nearly always just imagination, and it poisons discussion here.
Turns out, you can't mention that things might be astroturfing on HN because that's against the rules. So _pointing out_ something fishy is against the rules here. That seems very strange to me.
"In comments... Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email us and we'll look at the data. "
It's not that you can't make a post discussing astroturfing on HN or that you can't point out astroturfing to someone that can actually do something about it it's that you aren't supposed to just respond to an article that you think it's astroturfing as that helps nobody even if it is or isn't actually astroturfing.
No joke. Good example how to not write marketing copy for a landing page. This is from the linked page:
- Behind the greatness of microLED display technology
- View the greatness
- Great black
- Great color
- Great refinement
- Build the greatness
- Great design
- Great modularity
- Great look
- Handle the greatness
- Great performance
- ... see the greatness of microLED display technology up close
Hint for people writing landing pages: try to not use the same word over and over again. Something like thesaurus.com can help you find alternatives, but make sure you understand the replacement word and that it sounds natural.
I think the comparison screenshots are hilariously dumb given that most people are going to be viewing them on a normal lcd screen. How did they magically make my screen display previously impossible colors!
The splash of dust transitions used in the product video seem pathological to YouTube's MPEG compression. The compression renders the transitions a blurry mess—it's so messy as to be jarring. That's disappointing in a video that is attempting to sell the viewer on the clarity of a new display technology.
This is cool. Add it to the ever growing list of impractical and expensive things that I want to own in spite of it. Historically speaking this sort of reminds me of the wall of sound:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_of_Sound
Totally different and way more put together but the scale evokes a similar sensation.
I have experienced it at several Best Buy stores in the video games section to advertise the various Call of Duty games over the past several years. You can only barely hear it unless you are standing directly in front of the panel.
If anyone is close enough to get to the Stanford Campus near the end of Spring quarter, I strongly going to CCRMA’s annual two-night concert series in the Bing Studio. They assemble their GRAIL around the audience, with members of CCRMA (and visitors) performing.
I’d have hoped for HN there’d be an article focusing more on technology, and not just a marketing site. That said, does anyone know how this compares to LG’s OLED tech?
LED walls aka jumbotrons have been around for years and it's not particularly clear what's new here other than the consumer branding. LED walls appear to be far more expensive than OLED but it's hard to compare given that there's no overlap in size.
Those side-by-side comparisons halfway down remind me of when you used to get ads demonstrating how much better DVDs were than VHS ... on the VHS tape you just rented.
Currently, Samsung is offering two models of The Wall, or rather the individual panels that make up The Wall, the IW008J and the IW008R. While Samsung doesn't list prices for these panels online, other resellers are listing the modules for $16 to $23 thousand dollars each.
These individual modules measure 31.75 x 17.86 inches, but have an individual resolution of 960 x 540 pixels. In order to enjoy the same 3840 x 2160 resolution you'll get on a standard 4K TV, you'll need to buy 16 of these panels, to set up in a 4 x 4 configuration that measures 146 inches diagonally.
For people like me who only open the comment section; "the wall" is a new display technology by Samsung that apparently allows you to easily tile them together
Anyone with experience with these types of panels know whether the proposed seamless edges are actually possible? I'm a bit skeptical that manufacturing tolerances are tight enough to create a seamless edge from independent panels but I don't know enough to call bs.
In LCD or OLED displays, most of the display area emits light. There are black lines between the pixels, but they are thin, so it's hard to hide a seam in one. In contrast, the micro LEDs on this display are very small relative to the distance between them, "micrometer scale" vs. almost a millimeter. Most of the display area is actually a blank black surface, where a seam can be hidden.
Making smaller displays this way will be a challenge as the pixels will have to get closer together.
You can see a little line on certain images (for example at 0:20) but maybe it's caused by the sliding mechanism, because there is no line on the left side assuming they are put together from two square panels same as the sliding one.
English is not my first language but even I can spot some rough edges in the copy. Probably translated by a non-native, and they read like AliExpress’ product pages: trying to be inspiring but in reality just confusing.
I can't wait for micro LED displays to become mainstream.
IMHO OLED displays are analogous to Plasma displays back in the day: A new tech that enabled many new form factors (Thinner TVs) but had many key drawbacks like power consumption and burn-in. The same is the case with OLED, which enables new form factors like foldable displays, but brings its own issues.
I've been actively avoiding OLED displays for all my purchases due to its major current drawback: Burn-in. As beautiful as OLED displays may be with color and contrast, I have seen plenty of TV displays and phones with a permanently burned-in image of something that remained static for too long such as network logos, and status bars. My previous employer used beautiful 80" Samsung displays for their conference rooms, all of which were ruined in little over a year.
This matters a lot to me because I use my TV for gaming, which involves static menus that will burn OLED displays if you're not careful.
This is not something current LED displays are prone to, and I'm hoping micro LED displays work the same way.
> This is not something current LED displays are prone to,
I will disappoint you. LED displays have burn ins too! And with pixel sizes approaching that of OLED, burn ins will start sooner, and be more visible.
Samsung will not go for microled for consumer market until it gets "led on the backplane" going. That eliminates the transfer process, and most of cost associated with it.
The unsolved issue is current transfer. If you grow LED in-situ, you have to somehow put power supply there too, and preferably do it in the same manufacturing process.
If you have to transfer LEDs mechanically, it makes little cost difference to put LED driver ICs there mechanically too.
You're right that LED isn't immune from burn-in, however, it is much more resistant to it, and isn't necessarily permanent either. Leaving an LED display off for a few days, often less, can be enough to bring it back to normal.
Another artifact OLED displays have is their PenTile subpixel arrangement to compensate for the red, blue, and green organic compounds degrading at different rates. Hopefully micro LED brings us OLED quality with LCD reliability.
The smaller is the junction area, the more current goes through it. If you want to produce more photons with smaller area, you will inevitably run into that.
Those LED displays you can get in retail are nowhere close in die size to what microled is. Those conventional 1080P led displays with <1mm pitch already demonstrate very visible burnins. There is one in a hotel nearby that is only 4 moths old, and I can already distinguish an imprint from the brand logo, they seem to have unknowingly ran it on maximum brightness though.
Do you mean the LCD displays with LED backlights; that's what I've seen in retail, marketed as "LED TV"? Are you seeing burnin of the LEDs, or image retention on the LCD? LED burn in might look more like noticeably different white levels across the different local dimming areas, especially if it gets worse over time related to static brightness differences in the displayed image.
Samsung doesn’t make OLED displays. They would be QLED which is LED with quantum dots on the backlights for a truer white and better colors. LG and Sony have OLEDS. There are also no 80” OLEDS on the market. I think 77” is the largest and they are extremely pricey. You also never seen them in conference rooms since they don’t do well in bright areas unlike high end LEDs that have higher lumens
Brand new TVs have a tiny bezel on three or sometimes four sides, but it's still a bezel.
I dunno about Sony, but the Sharp and Philips models I could find had thin bezels too. When you tile displays, you have two bezels touching, so the black line is at least twice as wide.
Zero bezel on 4 sides also seems to be noteworthy, because it removes some ways in which one could 'cheat'. For example the new iPhone. From what I understand the bezel on the sides and top could be zero instead of just really really narrow, but the bottom edge has the display electronics attached. To keep from having a big bezel at the bottom of the phone they folded the screen over, so the electronics sit behind the display instead of below. I'm not sure that allows true edge-to-edge display, so Samsung would have had to do some other trick instead of feeding signal in from the edges.
A wall display that can be tiled on three edges still allows for quite a big bigger displays (especially in situations where long linear ones are good, like balconies or the barriers in MLS fields), but not quite like this one.
But the wall is not designed to be a TV but for digital signage. Even that page is inside their business side. I'm not sure while they keep trying to market to consumers. With those prices clearly it doesn't even make sense.
IIRC Sony has Crystal led (which is just a brand for their micro led), and other companies have a sub 1mm pitch led walls which should be pretty similar.
For a more "classical" solution there are LCD's with hairline bezels like Barco Unisee's, but again even those are far from consumer prices.
I don't follow your logic. What makes you think Samsung is applying consumer-grade smartphone design/cost-optimization hardware hacks to modules targeting a completely different market segment, let alone form factor?
They're made to be quickly set up and torn down, hanging from cables or lighting supports.
Perhaps this version by Samsung is easier to configure in odd shapes? I've seen a music show (Jon Anderson) where he had multiple vertical panels with large gaps in-between (several feet) and the panels all showed parts of the same video as though it was one display, with gaps in the image where the physical gaps were. So there is some configurability in existing modular LED walls too.
If you search on eBay you'll find the panels listed by the pixel spacing, P2, P3, P4, P6 where the number is the number of millimeters spacing.
You can buy a 10ft x 5ft, P3, 18 panel system for around $10,000 complete except for the laptop to run it. Various show control software has the ability to map video or graphics to pixels on the panels (VDMX, GrandVJ, MadMapper, QLab, etc.)
This one is 0.8mm pixel pitch (e.g. P0.8 I suppose), and they claim lower reflectance of the black background (i.e. higher daylight dynamic range) and bigger colour range.
My understanding is MicroLED offers the best of both worlds of OLED and LCD. Each pixel can be turned off entirely like OLED (so perfect blacks) and since there are three individual LEDs per pixel (RGB) you don't need any filters to get the desired colour so the brightness is much better than OLED.
111 comments
[ 3.0 ms ] story [ 171 ms ] threadGee golly, I mean I don't live anywhere near The Boring Company tunnel projects but I still like reading about those...
What's your problem?
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...
It's not that you can't make a post discussing astroturfing on HN or that you can't point out astroturfing to someone that can actually do something about it it's that you aren't supposed to just respond to an article that you think it's astroturfing as that helps nobody even if it is or isn't actually astroturfing.
Samsung for long been trying to make LEDs in-situ on backplane, and they had samples in labs at least 5 years ago.
- Behind the greatness of microLED display technology
- View the greatness
- Great black
- Great color
- Great refinement
- Build the greatness
- Great design
- Great modularity
- Great look
- Handle the greatness
- Great performance
- ... see the greatness of microLED display technology up close
Hint for people writing landing pages: try to not use the same word over and over again. Something like thesaurus.com can help you find alternatives, but make sure you understand the replacement word and that it sounds natural.
Guess the next ad campaign will read like this:
- Behind the prodigiousness of microLED display technology
- View the amplitude
- Stupendous black
- Humongous color
- Titanic refinement
... you get the point.
2x superior color purity is no mean feat. Such advanced technology can transcend beyond the boundaries set by your paltry screen.
I'm on a conventional led, how can I actually see what the wall version is like?
[0] https://www.holosonics.com/
https://ccrma.stanford.edu/home
https://lac.linuxaudio.org/2019/doc/lopez.pdf
Pixel density
These individual modules measure 31.75 x 17.86 inches, but have an individual resolution of 960 x 540 pixels. In order to enjoy the same 3840 x 2160 resolution you'll get on a standard 4K TV, you'll need to buy 16 of these panels, to set up in a 4 x 4 configuration that measures 146 inches diagonally.
https://www.tomsguide.com/us/samsung-the-wall-tv-release-dat...
Making smaller displays this way will be a challenge as the pixels will have to get closer together.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HVLgJFRwBA
You can see a little line on certain images (for example at 0:20) but maybe it's caused by the sliding mechanism, because there is no line on the left side assuming they are put together from two square panels same as the sliding one.
IMHO OLED displays are analogous to Plasma displays back in the day: A new tech that enabled many new form factors (Thinner TVs) but had many key drawbacks like power consumption and burn-in. The same is the case with OLED, which enables new form factors like foldable displays, but brings its own issues.
I've been actively avoiding OLED displays for all my purchases due to its major current drawback: Burn-in. As beautiful as OLED displays may be with color and contrast, I have seen plenty of TV displays and phones with a permanently burned-in image of something that remained static for too long such as network logos, and status bars. My previous employer used beautiful 80" Samsung displays for their conference rooms, all of which were ruined in little over a year.
This matters a lot to me because I use my TV for gaming, which involves static menus that will burn OLED displays if you're not careful.
This is not something current LED displays are prone to, and I'm hoping micro LED displays work the same way.
I will disappoint you. LED displays have burn ins too! And with pixel sizes approaching that of OLED, burn ins will start sooner, and be more visible.
Samsung will not go for microled for consumer market until it gets "led on the backplane" going. That eliminates the transfer process, and most of cost associated with it.
The unsolved issue is current transfer. If you grow LED in-situ, you have to somehow put power supply there too, and preferably do it in the same manufacturing process.
If you have to transfer LEDs mechanically, it makes little cost difference to put LED driver ICs there mechanically too.
Another artifact OLED displays have is their PenTile subpixel arrangement to compensate for the red, blue, and green organic compounds degrading at different rates. Hopefully micro LED brings us OLED quality with LCD reliability.
Those LED displays you can get in retail are nowhere close in die size to what microled is. Those conventional 1080P led displays with <1mm pitch already demonstrate very visible burnins. There is one in a hotel nearby that is only 4 moths old, and I can already distinguish an imprint from the brand logo, they seem to have unknowingly ran it on maximum brightness though.
Do you mean the LCD displays with LED backlights; that's what I've seen in retail, marketed as "LED TV"? Are you seeing burnin of the LEDs, or image retention on the LCD? LED burn in might look more like noticeably different white levels across the different local dimming areas, especially if it gets worse over time related to static brightness differences in the displayed image.
On the other side doesn't Sony, Barco, Christie and a few other signage companies have something similar to it?
I dunno about Sony, but the Sharp and Philips models I could find had thin bezels too. When you tile displays, you have two bezels touching, so the black line is at least twice as wide.
Zero bezel on 4 sides also seems to be noteworthy, because it removes some ways in which one could 'cheat'. For example the new iPhone. From what I understand the bezel on the sides and top could be zero instead of just really really narrow, but the bottom edge has the display electronics attached. To keep from having a big bezel at the bottom of the phone they folded the screen over, so the electronics sit behind the display instead of below. I'm not sure that allows true edge-to-edge display, so Samsung would have had to do some other trick instead of feeding signal in from the edges.
A wall display that can be tiled on three edges still allows for quite a big bigger displays (especially in situations where long linear ones are good, like balconies or the barriers in MLS fields), but not quite like this one.
IIRC Sony has Crystal led (which is just a brand for their micro led), and other companies have a sub 1mm pitch led walls which should be pretty similar.
For a more "classical" solution there are LCD's with hairline bezels like Barco Unisee's, but again even those are far from consumer prices.
https://www.idjnow.com/adj-av6-6mm-led-video-wall-3x2-comple...
They're made to be quickly set up and torn down, hanging from cables or lighting supports. Perhaps this version by Samsung is easier to configure in odd shapes? I've seen a music show (Jon Anderson) where he had multiple vertical panels with large gaps in-between (several feet) and the panels all showed parts of the same video as though it was one display, with gaps in the image where the physical gaps were. So there is some configurability in existing modular LED walls too.
If you search on eBay you'll find the panels listed by the pixel spacing, P2, P3, P4, P6 where the number is the number of millimeters spacing.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2334524.m...
You can buy a 10ft x 5ft, P3, 18 panel system for around $10,000 complete except for the laptop to run it. Various show control software has the ability to map video or graphics to pixels on the panels (VDMX, GrandVJ, MadMapper, QLab, etc.)