Perhaps I just don’t grok Twitter, but this seems like an awful way to convey information. When you click the link, you’re shown a whole bunch of garbage coercing you to sign up for the platform. It’s only in a small postage stamp GIF that you’re supposed to read an article that someone captured on they’re on screen (scrolling and all). If you miss a section or want to scroll back up, you have to wait until the GIF loops.
Is it really too much to post a link (or archive) of the actual article?
I just left a remote-only job for an onsite-only (or onsite four days a week, depending) job.
I loved the flexibility of being remote, but I was dying from the lack of social interaction. A third of my waking hours are spent working, and most of my friendships/relationships came from the office.
I've been remote for about two years, and I would go days at a time without talking to anyone besides my wife. We aren't meant to live that way.
> ... and I would go days at a time without talking to anyone besides my wife
Would it be correct to assume that the majority of your time socializing is at work?
I'm at a remote-only company now, and have been so for seven years. I've found the key is that I have certain unconditional social activities I do after work. Without them I tend to go a bit squirrely and cranky. At work we also make a point to spend the first 5-10 minutes of longer meetings just hanging out, and get together in person at least twice a year.
To be fair though, I don't think we're meant to live in tiny boxes at all. Spending all of our time under a roof and wrapped in walls, with climate control, doesn't seem all that normal, when you think about it.
You're not wrong though. I'm currently battling a cold/flu and I cannot fathom how I got it. I've left the house once this week and it was to drive to the mail. (I've been outside but notbofd the property.) If there was a coworking space anywhere near me, I'd spend a day or two a week there. I'd never lock back in to office live though. I never felt less productive than when I permanently shared a space with people. It was always too fun and I never got enough actual work done. Plus, I've been here to experience every life stage of my kid and every new achievement and that's preety fantastic.
Yes, that's why you should have a life outside of work. Depending on work being all of your social interaction is the issue here, not the fact that you were remote.
a draft is such a good env to just hang out, and we'd usually end up with a ringer or two, so it was a good way to socialize.
I've waned a bit because I didn't like the state of the meta, but have been itching to get back in for the social aspects alone.
Traded MtG for CS:GO mostly these days, but wanting to get more face to face time, even though I've been surprised about how much a consistent CS:GO group has felt like community.
I've been remote (or mostly remote) for 8+ years, and I would describe myself as extraverted and desiring social interaction.
Nevertheless, remote work has been great. I feel like I've had enough time to experiment with what works and what doesn't work that I'm now very comfortable working remotely and hope to do so for the rest of my career, if possible.
Granted, some of the things that make remote work tolerable or intolerable are under the control of your employer and some are under your own control, so both you and your employer need to be committed to making it work.
Being one of the only remote members of your team can stink, because you know that the other team members are mostly having their water cooler chats by the water cooler. But when you're on a team that's majority or fully remote, a lot of that happens via chat (text or video) and you don't feel like you're not being included.
Having a remote-friendly culture is important. For instance: People remember to add a video chat link to every meeting invite. Your employer invests in quality teleconferencing equipment to make meetings run smoothly. When company swag is given out, remote employees are included as well.
I've found that I get stir-crazy after sitting in my home office for more than a day at a time. So I like to go out to a library, a coffee shop, or a park (when it's nice out) for an hour or two. Even if I'm not directly interacting with other people, it helps.
I'm at a stage in my life where office friendships aren't my main source of friendships, and so while I enjoy forming friendships with my coworkers, I don't feel like I need to be going out to every office happy hour or rec league softball game. And that allows me to make time to cultivate and maintain other friendships.
I'm also at a stage in my life where having kids in the house helps a lot. My wife homeschools, so our family is able to have breakfast, lunch, and dinner together most days, and throughout the day there's a sense of liveliness in the house. Again, that can make a big difference, even if you're heads-down and not directly interacting with them during work hours.
P.S. One life hack I've discovered is that if you can find a remote position that's within about a 90-minute commute radius, and you can commit to driving in occasionally, you can still (mostly) get the benefits of face time, and you can make the case that you deserve the same market-rate salary as the in-office people, as opposed to the "adjusted cost of living" rate that is sometimes offered to fully remote employees. That opens up a lot of possibilities, in terms of where you can live. I live about 75 minutes from my company's headquarters, but in a state with a lower cost of living.
>But when you're on a team that's majority or fully remote, a lot of that happens via chat (text or video) and you don't feel like you're not being included.
like 8 years ago I had an older remote dev give me the best advice I've ever gotten about working remotely:
"If you were working in an office, would you hesitate to get up and walk over to a coworker and ask them about some bug? or just talk about your weekend? or maybe both? Then you shouldn't be shy about picking up the phone and calling them when your remote. If they can't or don't want to answer, they won't"
When I finally started taking that to heart, my remote working experience got significantly better. See someone pop online in slack? Shoot them a message about the weekend, start a call and just talk about nothing. Frustrated with some piece of code? call a coworker to talk it over, maybe mention in the slack channel that you're having trouble and post a zoom meeting link that others can join to help out if they aren't busy.
I have a very active social life, so I've never once had an interest in getting to know my coworkers or spending time with them outside of the office. I work my hardest to keep my social interactions at work to strictly that which is useful for me professionally, and beyond that I avoid people as much as I can. I don't need to have work friends because I have friends outside of work.
As to the second point, using myself as an example, not everybody feels that "we aren't meant to live that way". Some of the happiest times in my life were when I didn't need to go to an office for one reason or another. I went weeks without speaking or even seeing another human in person, or not even stepping out of my home, and I thrived on it. Excellent sleep schedule, daily exercise, time and energy to commit myself to my passions. Perhaps you aren't meant to live that way, but it's important to recognize that no one lifestyle works for everybody. Without having to go to an office, I can be a hermit or spend time with friends as I see fit, whereas being forced to be in an office is a constant and active drain for me.
The social aspect of work always boils down to the same obvious thing: social people need socialization, and if they don't have a strong enough social life, they'll need to compensate with work socialization. People who have a strong social life or don't feel much need to be around other humans, don't need to socialize during work
> As to the second point, using myself as an example, not everybody feels that "we aren't meant to live that way".
I am, generally, very introverted. I have a few close friends, and don't enjoy making or meeting new ones. But two years of isolation was just too much.
But yes, there are definitely people who thrive in that sort of environment.
I agree we are not meant to be hermits, but having work be your only social interaction is also not a way to live. I would argue that having work be strictly professional is both more healthy and better for dealing with people at work.
I have a hard time grasping this..
Work is not for socializing.. work is for work.
I don't go to work to find my SO or my best friend, I get to do that in my own time.
In addition, bonding a close, personal relationship with your co-workers lead into problems, office drama is not pleasant and can have severe consequences.
I think it would be healthy to simply maintain a professional relationship which ends at 5pm.
Sorry, but this is personal. I've been doing that for over 10 years and I'm very happy. Have friends outside of work. I go in the office occasionally (e. G. Once a month) for the social aspect, but I'm happy to be home full time
I got married in a Southeast Asian jurisdiction where divorce rape does not exist. Going back onsite would undoubtedly mean dragging wife and kids along into a divorce-rape jurisdiction. When I look at other people who did exactly that, their private life was completely destroyed in less than five years. Thanks but no thanks.
I have no idea what "divorce-rape" means, or why you think you would divorce (if I understood right?) within five years of going back to wherever you were before.
Well, that is the way it seems to work out. The divorce rate here is very, very low. However, when people move back, they get caught up in the same (high) divorce rate of the place where they are moving to. In my opinion, family breakdown is very contagious. That is why married people better stay away from divorced ones. Well, that is how it works here. Divorcees are no longer accepted in the community. I think that this approach makes sense, simply, because it works.
You are basically saying that the main (only?) reason for your wife to stay with you is peer pressure because she would otherwise no longer be welcome in "the community", which sounds awfully like abuse to me.
I'm still not sure what you meant by "rape" in your comment, but I'm not sure anymore I want to know.
> You are basically saying that the main (only?) reason for your wife to stay with you is peer pressure because she would otherwise no longer be welcome in "the community"
Not all of the time, but I am sure that there are occasionally times when it is like that. It is the same for me, actually. That is how a "real" marriage works.
> which sounds awfully like abuse to me.
Marriage only makes sense in the context of religion. Furthermore, "halal" or "haram" is decided by religious law for us. Last but not least, we never take advice concerning morality from the godless vermin.
You sound like you have some crappy 'family' life, but judging from your other comments, it is kind of self-explanatory.
To each his own, not much can be done here. I hope you don't have kids and don't plan any, and I hope for your wife that you will indeed soon move to a place where as you say 'divorce-rape' is a thing. Its called civilized world.
Anti-natalist remarks are the hallmark of the godless vermin. I repeat again: I do not take lessons in morality from the godless scum. We simply spit on the unbelievers.
Religious people and atheists cannot possibly get along. That is a well-known fact. Never have. Never will.
We look down on godless individuals and we despise them. That is simply a non-negotiable part of our religious beliefs. So, whenever I get to deal with moral advice from the godless vermin, I just repeat the same remark all over again: We do not take lessons in morality from the godless vermin.
> I got married in a Southeast Asian jurisdiction where divorce rape does not exist. Going back onsite would undoubtedly mean dragging wife and kids along into a divorce-rape jurisdiction.
What is divorce rape? I googled it but the only result was urban dictionary and I don't think it matches with your comment.
1. Live anywhere as long as the timezones are reasonable.
2. No commute.
3. Optional meetings actually stay optional.
4. If you are in a later timezone, you can work late relative to the home office hours; making you pretty valuable to clients for adhoc issues at the end of the day while your team is busy commuting home.
The negatives:
1. Very lonely, I ended up spending a lot of money going to cafes to fill a social need.
2. Office meetings suck. If you are the only person dialing in to a meeting and the rest of the team is local there are tons of issues. Noise, missing out on sidebar conversations, etc.
3. You are obligated to overcommunicate to your coworkers or managers to compensate for your lack of presence, but often they leave you in the dark.
4. If your technology breaks down, you are your own support.
5. If skype is signed out without you realizing it, management gets paranoid.
6. You have to work very hard to keep from getting distracted. This gets harder if you aren't interested in your workload.
7. Lack of visibility means lack of opportunities at work.
8. Its very easy to get in a rut where the "remote guy" only works on certain specific things and can't grow their career.
If I can help it, I will be 100% local from now on. In my mind, there are too many opportunities missed by not interacting with the rest of the office.
I imagine this list would be different if the team was 100% remote.
> Very lonely, I ended up spending a lot of money going to cafe's to fill a social need.
I usually work at the swimming pool of my condo here in SE Asia. I love taking swimming breaks. The other guys here at the pool do pretty much the same. These are the same people that I see at the gym when I work out. There are also a few retirees here who avoid cold winters in Canada. There's nothing lonely about my lifestyle. It is actually much better than working in an office.
Remote work is great for a lot of people, but in my case it doesn't. :)
I think leaving a job is often an intersection of many issues. Unfortunately, the remote aspect of the job can become one of them (as can a painful commute for local workers).
> 2. Office meetings suck. If you are the only person dialling in to a meeting and the rest of the team is local there are tons of issues. Noise, missing out on sidebar conversations, etc.
This always annoys me. Just make everybody dial in. The amount of wasted time with these kind of meetings just because people don't get it. If a side conversation starts, all bets are off for people dialled in, as the speakers will look at each other, which almost certainly means away from the spider phone/mic.
One of our big conference rooms has a couple remote mics on either end of the table, and I've been on the remote end when people have had a sidebar conversation hovered directly over one of them. Even though they were talking quietly, for everyone remote they were totally drowning out the main conversation.
> If you are the only person dialing in to a meeting
Every job I’ve had for the past 20 years (always 100% on-site) has been geo-distributed, so I’ve had to dial into nearly every meeting, often being the only person dialed in.
Same. One of my first jobs out of college in the 90s had me dialing into meetings with a geo-distributed team. The only thing that really changed for me as I transitioned fully remote was I didn't have to drive somewhere every day.
I have had jobs later that were fully onsite, and I always end up hating the drive, the strict hours (perceived or otherwise), and the simple lack of freedom. I will do way more work if I can some basic say over my schedule.
As a manager whose direct reports were all located in a different site (California vs NC where I am), most of your negatives also applied to me. Except I was onsite (albeit much smaller than the HQ) and did have a community around me. However, my team was located with the rest of my management chain (directors, VPs, etc) while I was stuck out here "alone".
> I imagine this list would be different if the team was 100% remote.
IMO this is a key point. I wouldn't recommend working remotely unless the entire company (or at least the department) is organized online and people are generally remote.
That said, I don't believe 100% is a necessity, as long as you act it. Eg some companies have a "one camera per face policy" for meetings. We recently adopted it, and it works super well. At my company though, sometimes a few people are colocated, and you get this weird dance of finding a spot sufficiently far away from each other to be able to stick with the policy and not also hear each other directly, with no latency. It's weird but it works super well. Everybody feels more connected.
With a few rules like that you can be, say, 80% remote and not 100%, without the downsides. Really it's all about the mindset.
>you get this weird dance of finding a spot sufficiently far away from each other to be able to stick with the policy and not also hear each other directly, with no latency.
See if you can talk to your boss and get everyone over-ear headsets with a boom mic, and spend some time tuning them so the mics only pickup the person talking.
That way you can have several people all in the same area all on the same or different calls, and for the most part it won't be an issue.
> 2. Office meetings suck. If you are the only person dialing in to a meeting and the rest of the team is local there are tons of issues. Noise, missing out on sidebar conversations, etc.
> 3. You are obligated to overcommunicate to your coworkers or managers to compensate for your lack of presence, but often they leave you in the dark.
> 5. If skype is signed out without you realizing it, management gets paranoid.
> 7. Lack of visibility means lack of opportunities at work.
> 8. Its very easy to get in a rut where the "remote guy" only works on certain specific things and can't grow their career.
Remote / mobile worker in various forms since 2006 here... I'd call your points above a management problem, not a remote problem explicitly. It has really struck me over the past ~year as remote work is becoming more normalized just how bad managers have their lack of confidence / awareness multiplied when they are trying to interact with remote workers and really don't have the personal tools to do it. Sounds like you've done a lot of reflection on your remote experience - and you are right, it isn't for everybody (and that's a-ok) - but I posit a lot of the breakdowns in remote work are because management hasn't evolved past the industrial age.
Some of the negatives you've listed come from a "non-remote" culture at the company (2, 3, 5, 7, 8), which can be fixed, with desire (by the company) and effort.
For example, with meetings, you can have a rule like if anyone is attending remotely, everyone attends "remotely" (with a headset and webcam from their desk). If you do use a meeting room, good equipment is essential -- HD audio on a device with good microphones and echo-cancellation, and a camera mounted on the wall.
I've come to the conclusion video is very important for most meetings, especially with more than a couple people, as everyone tends to stay muted to keep background noise down. You can see people nodding in agreement or looking confused, being totally disengaged, looking like they have something to say, smiling at jokes, etc. Without it, it discourages things that help build a healthy team like joking around -- if you crack a joke and it's followed by awkward silence, it's not a good feeling.
My team (distributed across timezones, with over half remote from a home office) does a daily standup every day, using video, and it definitely helps to bring the team together.
Team chat, used properly (hint: Skype is not the right tool, and chat is not a substitute for email or a bug tracker), can also help. Often when a bigger discussion breaks out and people are available (engaged in chat), we'll just start a video chat. It's a lot like the ad-hoc discussions that spring up in an office, but without the forced interruption that in-person presence has.
Fixing all this though really starts with getting the manager(s) on board. If the manager is a "butt-in-seats" type person who can't measure output in anything but number of hours worked, it will probably be an uphill battle.
working full-time is retarded. its just way too much. working full-time remotely is beyond retarded. i cannot comprehend anybody that does that. i do work remotely but no way in hell i would take a full-time 8-hour-day job. no amount of money would make me do that.
We build products for remote workers at my company[0], and we talk to a lot of remote workers to get their feedback. It's true that loneliness is a big problem that is mentioned by almost everyone we talk to.
We wanted to find a way to solve this so we started hosting "Work Clubs" which are essentially small meetup groups at coffee shops during the workday. We gather 3-4 people at the same table and work for 3-4 hours. It's a great way to get out of the house, meet other people and chat for a bit, but also get your work done during the day. We're seeing a lot of repeat users coming back and it's growing into a nice community of remote workers. Friendships and professional connections are made every week.
Right now we're hosting work clubs in the SF Bay Area, Portland, and San Diego. We're adding new work clubs daily or you can even host your own Work Club if you'd like. We'll be expanding to other cities soon so if you're a remote worker I'd encourage you to check it out and come work with us!
A few downsides I've struggled with that aren't mentioned (remote last 5 years of a 12 year career):
- Changing jobs is very difficult, and I haven't quite cracked it yet. IME, every company that advertises remote hiring comes with caveats: way below market salary/down-leveling or perfect candidate. I've been rejected by several companies after multi-round interviews with seemingly great skills match. I don't have an A-list pedigree, but maybe top 10% or so. If you're top school/FANG/excellent interview skills, you might have better results.
- Anyone you haven't worked with directly will doubt your value, or at worst assume you're a complete bozo (doubly so if you live trad life in flyover country). This makes it difficult to build strong relationships up and across the org.
- Remote leadership is considered an oxymoron. If you're several years into your career, you will likely be stuck in a relatively low impact "senior" position. This isn't a terrible place to be in the short term, but I worry about future prospects.
- You will miss out on the Bay Area gold rush. Not the end of the world, but it's frustrating to see people getting rich and retiring early from doing the same work as you.
For me the takeaway is remote is great in the short term but possibly dangerous in the long term.
60 comments
[ 2.9 ms ] story [ 117 ms ] threadIs it really too much to post a link (or archive) of the actual article?
I loved the flexibility of being remote, but I was dying from the lack of social interaction. A third of my waking hours are spent working, and most of my friendships/relationships came from the office.
I've been remote for about two years, and I would go days at a time without talking to anyone besides my wife. We aren't meant to live that way.
Would it be correct to assume that the majority of your time socializing is at work?
I'm at a remote-only company now, and have been so for seven years. I've found the key is that I have certain unconditional social activities I do after work. Without them I tend to go a bit squirrely and cranky. At work we also make a point to spend the first 5-10 minutes of longer meetings just hanging out, and get together in person at least twice a year.
You're not wrong though. I'm currently battling a cold/flu and I cannot fathom how I got it. I've left the house once this week and it was to drive to the mail. (I've been outside but notbofd the property.) If there was a coworking space anywhere near me, I'd spend a day or two a week there. I'd never lock back in to office live though. I never felt less productive than when I permanently shared a space with people. It was always too fun and I never got enough actual work done. Plus, I've been here to experience every life stage of my kid and every new achievement and that's preety fantastic.
Yes, that's why you should have a life outside of work. Depending on work being all of your social interaction is the issue here, not the fact that you were remote.
You currently have a community at your office that you don't realize. You will need to be intentional about building that community in other ways now.
I get lunch with friends more. Visit my Grandma out of state. Played a ton of Magic the Gathering.
It waxes and wanes, but it's my job to build and not just accept the "corp culture" as community.
"The magic is the gathering"
a draft is such a good env to just hang out, and we'd usually end up with a ringer or two, so it was a good way to socialize.
I've waned a bit because I didn't like the state of the meta, but have been itching to get back in for the social aspects alone.
Traded MtG for CS:GO mostly these days, but wanting to get more face to face time, even though I've been surprised about how much a consistent CS:GO group has felt like community.
Nevertheless, remote work has been great. I feel like I've had enough time to experiment with what works and what doesn't work that I'm now very comfortable working remotely and hope to do so for the rest of my career, if possible.
Granted, some of the things that make remote work tolerable or intolerable are under the control of your employer and some are under your own control, so both you and your employer need to be committed to making it work.
Being one of the only remote members of your team can stink, because you know that the other team members are mostly having their water cooler chats by the water cooler. But when you're on a team that's majority or fully remote, a lot of that happens via chat (text or video) and you don't feel like you're not being included.
Having a remote-friendly culture is important. For instance: People remember to add a video chat link to every meeting invite. Your employer invests in quality teleconferencing equipment to make meetings run smoothly. When company swag is given out, remote employees are included as well.
I've found that I get stir-crazy after sitting in my home office for more than a day at a time. So I like to go out to a library, a coffee shop, or a park (when it's nice out) for an hour or two. Even if I'm not directly interacting with other people, it helps.
I'm at a stage in my life where office friendships aren't my main source of friendships, and so while I enjoy forming friendships with my coworkers, I don't feel like I need to be going out to every office happy hour or rec league softball game. And that allows me to make time to cultivate and maintain other friendships.
I'm also at a stage in my life where having kids in the house helps a lot. My wife homeschools, so our family is able to have breakfast, lunch, and dinner together most days, and throughout the day there's a sense of liveliness in the house. Again, that can make a big difference, even if you're heads-down and not directly interacting with them during work hours.
P.S. One life hack I've discovered is that if you can find a remote position that's within about a 90-minute commute radius, and you can commit to driving in occasionally, you can still (mostly) get the benefits of face time, and you can make the case that you deserve the same market-rate salary as the in-office people, as opposed to the "adjusted cost of living" rate that is sometimes offered to fully remote employees. That opens up a lot of possibilities, in terms of where you can live. I live about 75 minutes from my company's headquarters, but in a state with a lower cost of living.
like 8 years ago I had an older remote dev give me the best advice I've ever gotten about working remotely:
"If you were working in an office, would you hesitate to get up and walk over to a coworker and ask them about some bug? or just talk about your weekend? or maybe both? Then you shouldn't be shy about picking up the phone and calling them when your remote. If they can't or don't want to answer, they won't"
When I finally started taking that to heart, my remote working experience got significantly better. See someone pop online in slack? Shoot them a message about the weekend, start a call and just talk about nothing. Frustrated with some piece of code? call a coworker to talk it over, maybe mention in the slack channel that you're having trouble and post a zoom meeting link that others can join to help out if they aren't busy.
As to the second point, using myself as an example, not everybody feels that "we aren't meant to live that way". Some of the happiest times in my life were when I didn't need to go to an office for one reason or another. I went weeks without speaking or even seeing another human in person, or not even stepping out of my home, and I thrived on it. Excellent sleep schedule, daily exercise, time and energy to commit myself to my passions. Perhaps you aren't meant to live that way, but it's important to recognize that no one lifestyle works for everybody. Without having to go to an office, I can be a hermit or spend time with friends as I see fit, whereas being forced to be in an office is a constant and active drain for me.
The social aspect of work always boils down to the same obvious thing: social people need socialization, and if they don't have a strong enough social life, they'll need to compensate with work socialization. People who have a strong social life or don't feel much need to be around other humans, don't need to socialize during work
I am, generally, very introverted. I have a few close friends, and don't enjoy making or meeting new ones. But two years of isolation was just too much.
But yes, there are definitely people who thrive in that sort of environment.
I agree we are not meant to be hermits, but having work be your only social interaction is also not a way to live. I would argue that having work be strictly professional is both more healthy and better for dealing with people at work.
I don't go to work to find my SO or my best friend, I get to do that in my own time.
In addition, bonding a close, personal relationship with your co-workers lead into problems, office drama is not pleasant and can have severe consequences.
I think it would be healthy to simply maintain a professional relationship which ends at 5pm.
Different personalities I suppose..
I got married in a Southeast Asian jurisdiction where divorce rape does not exist. Going back onsite would undoubtedly mean dragging wife and kids along into a divorce-rape jurisdiction. When I look at other people who did exactly that, their private life was completely destroyed in less than five years. Thanks but no thanks.
I'm still not sure what you meant by "rape" in your comment, but I'm not sure anymore I want to know.
Not all of the time, but I am sure that there are occasionally times when it is like that. It is the same for me, actually. That is how a "real" marriage works.
> which sounds awfully like abuse to me.
Marriage only makes sense in the context of religion. Furthermore, "halal" or "haram" is decided by religious law for us. Last but not least, we never take advice concerning morality from the godless vermin.
To each his own, not much can be done here. I hope you don't have kids and don't plan any, and I hope for your wife that you will indeed soon move to a place where as you say 'divorce-rape' is a thing. Its called civilized world.
We look down on godless individuals and we despise them. That is simply a non-negotiable part of our religious beliefs. So, whenever I get to deal with moral advice from the godless vermin, I just repeat the same remark all over again: We do not take lessons in morality from the godless vermin.
If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
What is divorce rape? I googled it but the only result was urban dictionary and I don't think it matches with your comment.
I only know because they told everyone within two minutes.
The benefits:
1. Live anywhere as long as the timezones are reasonable.
2. No commute.
3. Optional meetings actually stay optional.
4. If you are in a later timezone, you can work late relative to the home office hours; making you pretty valuable to clients for adhoc issues at the end of the day while your team is busy commuting home.
The negatives:
1. Very lonely, I ended up spending a lot of money going to cafes to fill a social need.
2. Office meetings suck. If you are the only person dialing in to a meeting and the rest of the team is local there are tons of issues. Noise, missing out on sidebar conversations, etc.
3. You are obligated to overcommunicate to your coworkers or managers to compensate for your lack of presence, but often they leave you in the dark.
4. If your technology breaks down, you are your own support.
5. If skype is signed out without you realizing it, management gets paranoid.
6. You have to work very hard to keep from getting distracted. This gets harder if you aren't interested in your workload.
7. Lack of visibility means lack of opportunities at work.
8. Its very easy to get in a rut where the "remote guy" only works on certain specific things and can't grow their career.
If I can help it, I will be 100% local from now on. In my mind, there are too many opportunities missed by not interacting with the rest of the office.
I imagine this list would be different if the team was 100% remote.
I usually work at the swimming pool of my condo here in SE Asia. I love taking swimming breaks. The other guys here at the pool do pretty much the same. These are the same people that I see at the gym when I work out. There are also a few retirees here who avoid cold winters in Canada. There's nothing lonely about my lifestyle. It is actually much better than working in an office.
I think leaving a job is often an intersection of many issues. Unfortunately, the remote aspect of the job can become one of them (as can a painful commute for local workers).
This always annoys me. Just make everybody dial in. The amount of wasted time with these kind of meetings just because people don't get it. If a side conversation starts, all bets are off for people dialled in, as the speakers will look at each other, which almost certainly means away from the spider phone/mic.
Every job I’ve had for the past 20 years (always 100% on-site) has been geo-distributed, so I’ve had to dial into nearly every meeting, often being the only person dialed in.
I have had jobs later that were fully onsite, and I always end up hating the drive, the strict hours (perceived or otherwise), and the simple lack of freedom. I will do way more work if I can some basic say over my schedule.
IMO this is a key point. I wouldn't recommend working remotely unless the entire company (or at least the department) is organized online and people are generally remote.
That said, I don't believe 100% is a necessity, as long as you act it. Eg some companies have a "one camera per face policy" for meetings. We recently adopted it, and it works super well. At my company though, sometimes a few people are colocated, and you get this weird dance of finding a spot sufficiently far away from each other to be able to stick with the policy and not also hear each other directly, with no latency. It's weird but it works super well. Everybody feels more connected.
With a few rules like that you can be, say, 80% remote and not 100%, without the downsides. Really it's all about the mindset.
Also, seriously folks, do retrospectives.
See if you can talk to your boss and get everyone over-ear headsets with a boom mic, and spend some time tuning them so the mics only pickup the person talking.
That way you can have several people all in the same area all on the same or different calls, and for the most part it won't be an issue.
The key problem isn't microphone pickup though, but just hearing each other twice. Noice cancelling headphones might fix that.
> 3. You are obligated to overcommunicate to your coworkers or managers to compensate for your lack of presence, but often they leave you in the dark.
> 5. If skype is signed out without you realizing it, management gets paranoid.
> 7. Lack of visibility means lack of opportunities at work.
> 8. Its very easy to get in a rut where the "remote guy" only works on certain specific things and can't grow their career.
Remote / mobile worker in various forms since 2006 here... I'd call your points above a management problem, not a remote problem explicitly. It has really struck me over the past ~year as remote work is becoming more normalized just how bad managers have their lack of confidence / awareness multiplied when they are trying to interact with remote workers and really don't have the personal tools to do it. Sounds like you've done a lot of reflection on your remote experience - and you are right, it isn't for everybody (and that's a-ok) - but I posit a lot of the breakdowns in remote work are because management hasn't evolved past the industrial age.
For example, with meetings, you can have a rule like if anyone is attending remotely, everyone attends "remotely" (with a headset and webcam from their desk). If you do use a meeting room, good equipment is essential -- HD audio on a device with good microphones and echo-cancellation, and a camera mounted on the wall.
I've come to the conclusion video is very important for most meetings, especially with more than a couple people, as everyone tends to stay muted to keep background noise down. You can see people nodding in agreement or looking confused, being totally disengaged, looking like they have something to say, smiling at jokes, etc. Without it, it discourages things that help build a healthy team like joking around -- if you crack a joke and it's followed by awkward silence, it's not a good feeling.
My team (distributed across timezones, with over half remote from a home office) does a daily standup every day, using video, and it definitely helps to bring the team together.
Team chat, used properly (hint: Skype is not the right tool, and chat is not a substitute for email or a bug tracker), can also help. Often when a bigger discussion breaks out and people are available (engaged in chat), we'll just start a video chat. It's a lot like the ad-hoc discussions that spring up in an office, but without the forced interruption that in-person presence has.
Fixing all this though really starts with getting the manager(s) on board. If the manager is a "butt-in-seats" type person who can't measure output in anything but number of hours worked, it will probably be an uphill battle.
For those looking to learn more on remote, or leaders/founders considering it, here are a few resources that were used in this survey.
GitLab's Guide to All-Remote: https://about.gitlab.com/company/culture/all-remote/guide/
Informal Communication: https://about.gitlab.com/company/culture/all-remote/informal...
People: adopting a remote lifestyle: https://about.gitlab.com/company/culture/all-remote/people/
Guide for starting a remote job: https://about.gitlab.com/company/culture/all-remote/getting-...
We wanted to find a way to solve this so we started hosting "Work Clubs" which are essentially small meetup groups at coffee shops during the workday. We gather 3-4 people at the same table and work for 3-4 hours. It's a great way to get out of the house, meet other people and chat for a bit, but also get your work done during the day. We're seeing a lot of repeat users coming back and it's growing into a nice community of remote workers. Friendships and professional connections are made every week.
Right now we're hosting work clubs in the SF Bay Area, Portland, and San Diego. We're adding new work clubs daily or you can even host your own Work Club if you'd like. We'll be expanding to other cities soon so if you're a remote worker I'd encourage you to check it out and come work with us!
[0] https://outofoffice.app/
- Changing jobs is very difficult, and I haven't quite cracked it yet. IME, every company that advertises remote hiring comes with caveats: way below market salary/down-leveling or perfect candidate. I've been rejected by several companies after multi-round interviews with seemingly great skills match. I don't have an A-list pedigree, but maybe top 10% or so. If you're top school/FANG/excellent interview skills, you might have better results.
- Anyone you haven't worked with directly will doubt your value, or at worst assume you're a complete bozo (doubly so if you live trad life in flyover country). This makes it difficult to build strong relationships up and across the org.
- Remote leadership is considered an oxymoron. If you're several years into your career, you will likely be stuck in a relatively low impact "senior" position. This isn't a terrible place to be in the short term, but I worry about future prospects.
- You will miss out on the Bay Area gold rush. Not the end of the world, but it's frustrating to see people getting rich and retiring early from doing the same work as you.
For me the takeaway is remote is great in the short term but possibly dangerous in the long term.