Many non-EU nationals working in the UK, and from those I've spoken with, it will become a bit easier and fairer for them and with that, all non-uk nationals as a whole.
Sure, won't be able to underpay people so easily as they have done with EU nationals and that is a good thing.
But I appreciate that cheap staff is always a boon for any company in whatever industry, but that's not fair on the people though really.
As for the scare tech founders off aspect, the article seems to slant it's focus upon European ones and that may well be true, more so as the UK will not be part of the EU.
Which in effect means that the playing field is fairer for all non-UK nationals as it removes that EU national privilege.
But let us see how it pans, and would be great to tag an article for review a year or two later on in which clarity and actualities can replace speculation.
>Sure, won't be able to underpay people so easily as they have done with EU nationals and that is a good thing.
What makes you say EU expats were easier target to underpay in contrast to non-EU ones?
IMHO from my experience they just try to underpay everyone but have more success with non-EU expats as they have less freedom of movement than the EU one and their visa is tied to an employer in the beginning so their options are much more limited than the EU expats who can work for any company in any EU country.
>What makes you say EU expats were easier target to underpay in contrast to non-EU ones?
Easy - EU nationals had the right to work so no visa requirements at all, which would entail having a certain level of salary - now that will apply to all - how can that not be fairer?
Though remote workers will always be a thing - especially in tech, so there are always ways around everything.
I understand your non-EU expat friends are happy with less competition on the market, but the minimum salary a highly skilled non-EU expat had to have to qualify for visa was in the 36K ball park which is comically low for someone advertised as highly skilled on UK(mostly South of England) CoL. There is no way any highly skilled EU expat would work for less than that to argument that they're responsible for wage dumping.
EU expats are avoiding the UK now not because they might not meet the new visa requirements, but because of the insecurity Brexit brought and they have other equally attractive options like BeNeLux, Scandinavia, Switzerland or Germany.
I may be misunderstanding, but my interpretation of the other commenter's words was that migrants from the EU who traditionally held low paying jobs would no longer be able to come in to do those jobs. It's not related to the higher paying jobs that those on a skilled worker visa would get. The downside, of course, is that UK businesses will have to pay more for the unskilled labour than they were previously. This, in turn, may make them less competitive against EU companies that have access to low cost unskilled labour.
Many highly skilled tech workers are not great when it comes to salary negotiations and many look for the opportunities and for some the location appeal. I've worked with EU nationals with some amazing skills beyond their salary level and been on less than 30k a year.
Totally agree, why would they want to work here when better opportunities and cheaper living costs, London is darn expensive, as are many parts of the UK. For me Estonia was always the best choice even when the UK was in the EU.
> "cheap staff"
This seems to be the stock response anytime one mentions foreign workers.
Who gets to determine what's "cheap"? Look at it from the business' perspective, perhaps your asks are exorbitant, way too disproportionate to their abilities - salary-gouging by constricting supply - and end-up sinking the business.
Don't fully agree with GP but if a business can only survive by underpaying people and especially expats, which is common in EU tech sector, then that business deserves to sink.
Nothing personal with those businesses but some of them (you know who they are) are exploitative and only help to aggravate the ever increasing inequality.
"underpaying" - as compared to who? Who gets to determine that?
It's very easy to scoff at "cheap labor" when in my experience it's far more often than not, the entitled , incompetents (they pair often) who complain. Just because someone feels entitled to a <£ some high number> salary means they are worthy of it. In fact, oftentimes not!
Simple, the market decides that. If you have a job opening and nobody from the EU applies for your job at your advertised salary then your're underpaying and then arguing in favor of immigration visas in order to fill in your positions means you're exploiting.
If I'm trying to rent out a place and nobody wants it, then I need to adjust my price expectations if I want to rent it.
It's not "simple", and it's definitely not "the market". It's the market as _you would like it to be_ , for salary-gouging.
I am one of the "evil" business owners you speak of, and there is no way I will pay the exorbitant salary expectations from (mostly) undeserving people. I would much rather outsource and hire people in Ukraine, Russia, etc. Sorry to break your heart, but If I pay $x then I would expect $ x+<delta> value from hiring someone, that's the core of any business.
To use your analogy, if I am trying to rent out a place, and it's basically a tent & a sleeping bag (which in the current job market it is) , I would focus on making it worthy of the asking price or lower my ask.
You misunderstood, I wan't talking about outsourcing which you're fully allowed to do as you please, but about businesses practicing wage dumping here via shady immigration practices masquerading as a benefit to everyone with good PR.
Again, I see no problem with your approach. One country gets a new employer on the market and another country looses one that's focused on race to the bottom. Win-Win. :)
That's fine if your business can survive like that. In my experience outsourced projects (to companies in Sweden for a lot of money, or companies in Ukraine for what I assume is a fair bit less pay) the quality has been pretty poor. Maybe it will work if you are doing something simple, or is very well defined.
As a former non-EU visa holder that was not my impression at all. Cheap eastern EU nationals is a thing. It's just not a viable thing. What you get is a bunch of EU nationals recruited from Hungary, Rommania, and Poland who will work for your underpaying position for 3-6 months. Then, once they qualify for unemployment benefits they'll leave for a job where the pay is better suited.
This underpaying of EU nationals relies on the naivete of EU nationals, but people get wise to whats going on fairly quickly.
Finally, the trade works both ways. People weren't just going to the UK for work. They were also being hired and sent their to facilitate trade with other EU members.
From the visa aspect, what is your view upon that with the changes - does the new system seem easier to you for non-EU nationals to actually get a visa?
I think there has been a ratcheting up of visa requirements for all non-UK nationals. The nationalists have successfully quashed immigration from developing countries first, followed by commonwealth countries, and now through Brexit EU countries.
Incorporating a startup in the UK becomes much less attractive after Brexit because EU markets are not easily accessible anymore. I think EU founders will take into account this first. If you add paperwork on top of that I don't see why founders wouldn't just incorporate let's say in Estonia and just travel to London on a tourist Visa to look for funding if needed.
Spot on - more so Estonia is by far one of the best tech hubs in Europe with many brilliantly staff that speak English and brexit or not, would be my choice over London for any EU tech startup brexit or not.
I can't as not out there myself, equally you need to factor in cost of living as 40k a year in a city that costs 20k a year to live is worse of than 27k a year in a city that costs 5k to live. Then taxes..... many factors.
Equally, front end and marketing are not my area's.
Tell that to all the US firms that dominate European markets. Both software and services are tariff free under WTO rules. It would be no harder for British companies than American companies. Perhaps easier - there's a reason Barnier et al keep freaking out about "level playing fields".
With so few applications, I'm not sure it's a big deal. I'm not sure the UK really has a Silicon Valley pull factor (I'm aware of what's been dubbed Silicon Roundabout). Government body endorsement sounds like a terrible idea for discerning viable startups, but I guess it renders the whole thing pointless if anyone can apply through the same route.
The changes around how IR35's being addressed seem a much bigger issue to me, not that even that will affect every startup.
Yes IR35 has been a PITA for contracting in tech for a while and it is about to get a lot worse come April. Heck, it will near on kill of a lot of contracting avenues.
That and IR35 effectively treats you as an employee with all the associated tax aspects and none of the perks - no holiday pay, no sickness pay, other company aspects.
Which is irksome given how if your building a house instead of software, you get special NI perks and other aspects....
Sad cruz is that tech is a new trade in the grand scale of things, no unions or the like that other established industries have and equally - when the certifications in tech are so dynamic and change each year compared to those other longer established industries like construction, accounting.... there are times you kinda feel shafted.
Which is why I got out of contracting last century, then ironically joined a company working on a project that ended up busting 80 hour weeks and only paid core hours and the ew contractors we had, well they got their hourly flesh.
But hey, being good at tech, don't mean you're good at business, or indeed negotiations for remunerations - I know I'm terrible upon the later and sold myself short too many times. Sure you learn, but it is one of my kryptonite area's.
I'm still a contractor in tech in London. IR35 is, as you said, a real PITA!
The level of change is just quite dramatic, and the returns are not at all favourable in any comparison.
I have been doing this for a long time now, many many years and have worked on many projects, in many companies. There is definitely a massive benefit of flexible and highly skilled developers for companies that need projects off the ground quickly. I am very interested to see how this single change alters what many companies are able to push out in the UK post April.
While there appear to still be the potential for Outside IR35 contracts, I have many colleagues that are sat on the sidelines already, waiting.
I'm a US citizen in the UK on a visa where I can be self-employed and start companies. It looks like the new system has basically the same process for getting this type of visa (which is to say it's still a pain in the ass) except now EU citizens have to jump through the same hoops instead of just moving over.
This is going to be a double whammy for the UK tech scene. First, by leaving the EU, the UK hugely shrinks a company's addressable market and reduces the incentive for anyone to come here to start a company instead of somewhere with a bigger market, like the US, Germany, or whatever.
Second, by making it as hard for EU citizens to get a visa to the UK as it is for them to get one the US, there's going to be a lot less incentive for people to come to the UK. The UK is a great place to live, but tech jobs here have a lot lower pay than the US and there is a much smaller tech scene. If the effort for moving to both is roughly the same, a lot of people are going to follow the money.
Go into any dev office in London and you are likely to find as many Spanish, French, etc. developers as British developers. By cutting out that supply of labor, it's going to get a lot harder to hire developers and there will be less developers around with ideas who have the legal ability to start their own company. Maybe that will push local wages up, but maybe it will just depress the tech scene overall and push more business to other countries.
28 comments
[ 3.2 ms ] story [ 79.9 ms ] threadSure, won't be able to underpay people so easily as they have done with EU nationals and that is a good thing.
But I appreciate that cheap staff is always a boon for any company in whatever industry, but that's not fair on the people though really.
As for the scare tech founders off aspect, the article seems to slant it's focus upon European ones and that may well be true, more so as the UK will not be part of the EU.
Which in effect means that the playing field is fairer for all non-UK nationals as it removes that EU national privilege.
But let us see how it pans, and would be great to tag an article for review a year or two later on in which clarity and actualities can replace speculation.
What makes you say EU expats were easier target to underpay in contrast to non-EU ones?
IMHO from my experience they just try to underpay everyone but have more success with non-EU expats as they have less freedom of movement than the EU one and their visa is tied to an employer in the beginning so their options are much more limited than the EU expats who can work for any company in any EU country.
Easy - EU nationals had the right to work so no visa requirements at all, which would entail having a certain level of salary - now that will apply to all - how can that not be fairer?
Though remote workers will always be a thing - especially in tech, so there are always ways around everything.
I understand your non-EU expat friends are happy with less competition on the market, but the minimum salary a highly skilled non-EU expat had to have to qualify for visa was in the 36K ball park which is comically low for someone advertised as highly skilled on UK(mostly South of England) CoL. There is no way any highly skilled EU expat would work for less than that to argument that they're responsible for wage dumping.
EU expats are avoiding the UK now not because they might not meet the new visa requirements, but because of the insecurity Brexit brought and they have other equally attractive options like BeNeLux, Scandinavia, Switzerland or Germany.
Totally agree, why would they want to work here when better opportunities and cheaper living costs, London is darn expensive, as are many parts of the UK. For me Estonia was always the best choice even when the UK was in the EU.
Who gets to determine what's "cheap"? Look at it from the business' perspective, perhaps your asks are exorbitant, way too disproportionate to their abilities - salary-gouging by constricting supply - and end-up sinking the business.
Nothing personal with those businesses but some of them (you know who they are) are exploitative and only help to aggravate the ever increasing inequality.
It's very easy to scoff at "cheap labor" when in my experience it's far more often than not, the entitled , incompetents (they pair often) who complain. Just because someone feels entitled to a <£ some high number> salary means they are worthy of it. In fact, oftentimes not!
If I'm trying to rent out a place and nobody wants it, then I need to adjust my price expectations if I want to rent it.
I am one of the "evil" business owners you speak of, and there is no way I will pay the exorbitant salary expectations from (mostly) undeserving people. I would much rather outsource and hire people in Ukraine, Russia, etc. Sorry to break your heart, but If I pay $x then I would expect $ x+<delta> value from hiring someone, that's the core of any business.
To use your analogy, if I am trying to rent out a place, and it's basically a tent & a sleeping bag (which in the current job market it is) , I would focus on making it worthy of the asking price or lower my ask.
Sauce for the goose == sauce for the gander.
This underpaying of EU nationals relies on the naivete of EU nationals, but people get wise to whats going on fairly quickly.
Finally, the trade works both ways. People weren't just going to the UK for work. They were also being hired and sent their to facilitate trade with other EU members.
[EDIT ADD] https://startupestonia.ee/why-estonia well worth reading that and shows how Estonia would be the best choice for any EU startup anyhow
2-3 years experience, web front end and/or B2C marketing
Equally, front end and marketing are not my area's.
https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/estonia-front-end-devel... may be of some help for you though.
Tell that to all the US firms that dominate European markets. Both software and services are tariff free under WTO rules. It would be no harder for British companies than American companies. Perhaps easier - there's a reason Barnier et al keep freaking out about "level playing fields".
The changes around how IR35's being addressed seem a much bigger issue to me, not that even that will affect every startup.
That and IR35 effectively treats you as an employee with all the associated tax aspects and none of the perks - no holiday pay, no sickness pay, other company aspects.
Which is irksome given how if your building a house instead of software, you get special NI perks and other aspects....
Sad cruz is that tech is a new trade in the grand scale of things, no unions or the like that other established industries have and equally - when the certifications in tech are so dynamic and change each year compared to those other longer established industries like construction, accounting.... there are times you kinda feel shafted.
Which is why I got out of contracting last century, then ironically joined a company working on a project that ended up busting 80 hour weeks and only paid core hours and the ew contractors we had, well they got their hourly flesh.
But hey, being good at tech, don't mean you're good at business, or indeed negotiations for remunerations - I know I'm terrible upon the later and sold myself short too many times. Sure you learn, but it is one of my kryptonite area's.
The level of change is just quite dramatic, and the returns are not at all favourable in any comparison.
I have been doing this for a long time now, many many years and have worked on many projects, in many companies. There is definitely a massive benefit of flexible and highly skilled developers for companies that need projects off the ground quickly. I am very interested to see how this single change alters what many companies are able to push out in the UK post April.
While there appear to still be the potential for Outside IR35 contracts, I have many colleagues that are sat on the sidelines already, waiting.
This is going to be a double whammy for the UK tech scene. First, by leaving the EU, the UK hugely shrinks a company's addressable market and reduces the incentive for anyone to come here to start a company instead of somewhere with a bigger market, like the US, Germany, or whatever.
Second, by making it as hard for EU citizens to get a visa to the UK as it is for them to get one the US, there's going to be a lot less incentive for people to come to the UK. The UK is a great place to live, but tech jobs here have a lot lower pay than the US and there is a much smaller tech scene. If the effort for moving to both is roughly the same, a lot of people are going to follow the money.
Go into any dev office in London and you are likely to find as many Spanish, French, etc. developers as British developers. By cutting out that supply of labor, it's going to get a lot harder to hire developers and there will be less developers around with ideas who have the legal ability to start their own company. Maybe that will push local wages up, but maybe it will just depress the tech scene overall and push more business to other countries.