I don't think there is an easy way to disinfect it, maybe wipe it down with some lysol wipes if you have some. I guess your best bet is to just wash your hands thoroughly after going grocery shopping, and before and after eating.
I'll only buy food that is in containers and clean the containers with a cloth with soapy water. Hopefully, soapy water is suitable. If I'm lucky I'll be able to get methylated spirit in the grocery store to make methylated spirit 70%. This concentration is mentioned in [1]. I could then fill up the empty bottles of surface disinfection spray that I've collected in the last year.
We've just be quarantining packages. They get shoveled into the garage and sit there for at least 3 days before opening. Seems like a pretty small convenience hit to stay safe.
The best appears to be copper, which is 4 hours[1] which is why I bought some copper tape online and wrapped shared touch surfaces in my apartment with it (though be careful to avoid getting cuts when you grip it).
I made one last trip to the grocery store on Friday. Wiped the handle and bottom of the cart, but I'm just crossing my fingers that the items I bought were safe. Included lots of individual fruits, so not really feasible to sterilize. I'm in Texas, so hopefully it wasn't prevalent enough yet. Not sure what I'll do when I have to make another trip in a couple weeks if we're still in quarantine.
>Not sure what I'll do when I have to make another trip in a couple weeks if we're still in quarantine.
Maybe we can develop good ideas? What about these ideas:
* Vitamin/mineral pills
* fruit juice / pureed fruit/vegetables (for secondary plant substances)
* Visiting the grocery store when few customers are there
* Apply cream to your hands. I always wash my hands often. They can become dry and tiny wounds occur. If lemon juice hurts your hands then it's bad. Germs can get into the tiny wounds.
> * Visiting the grocery store when few customers are there
This is becoming hard with a lot of grocery stores reducing their hours now. Our local store is only open 8-8 vs 24hours normally; I'd love to go around 10 or 11pm like we normally do.
1. Opening cereal/cracker/other boxes with gloves on, taking out the bag inside the box, and recycling the box. I figure the interior bag hasn't been touched in days, typically, if it was ever touched by human hands.
2. For other things, like bread, I've been moving the bread into clean ziploc bags.
3. Washing things like Apples and plastic milk jugs with soap and water.
Feels pretty paranoid but seems to make sense right now.
Sure, except the mortality rate is nowhere near 100% and you will likely acquire the virus or it’s descendants at some point unless you continue washing your cereal boxes forever.
Scared of a cereal box but running around in the same jeans for 2 weeks. Sorry but that kind of behaviour and even worse the proudly presenting it on the internet is double + retarded.
It's not helping you and YOU (YES YOU) ARE CAUSING PANIC FOR PEOPLE. You are not helping. Disconnect your internet and stfu.
Not likely, as it's a lot easier to do some basics like take a temp of your delivery people at the beginning/end of their shifts. And there's only one person, so you could do some contact tracing if you were some kind of modern country - unlike those unable to test hardly anyone.
So it seems a bit better than a free for all at the supermarket?
I just got the mail, with gloves, and left it in the garage. Same thing with an Amazon package yesterday.
You're not the only one leaving stuff in the garage. but for some of the big-ticket items or food items I have doused the box in Lysol spray and let it sit for 10 minutes and then opened it.
but I read somewhere that the half-life of this thing in direct sunlight is 2.5 minutes so after an hour or so it's pretty much gone if that's true.
This isn't new information except that it's being highlighted directly by the NIH, instead of news orgs reporting on the preprint.
There also doesn't seem to be any attempt at reproduction so far. So, good information to have, but we can't take the numbers as literal and absolute -- more like a lower bound.
It also isn't necessarily sufficient for the virus surviving on surfaces to be able to infect someone. If the virus needs to find its way into your lungs to infect you, and it is part of some surface matter that doesn't aerosolize easily, then the virus surviving on surfaces may not be able to actually infect people.
I don't know that aerosolize is the problem so much as people putting their booger hooks up around their mucus membranes around their face - after touching other surfaces, that is. (edited to add that bit, since that's the important part)
People touch the surface, then their faces. Inhaled aerosols are not a significant component of how this virus spreads. Touched surfaces with viral films, and inhaled droplets, are.
This is a direct contradiction to what the CDC has been saying from the beginning, and continues to say:
> The virus is thought to spread mainly from person-to-person.
> - Between people who are in close contact with one another (within about 6 feet).
> - Through respiratory droplets produced when an infected person coughs or sneezes.
> These droplets can land in the mouths or noses of people who are nearby or possibly be inhaled into the lungs.
And:
> It may be possible that a person can get COVID-19 by touching a surface or object that has the virus on it and then touching their own mouth, nose, or possibly their eyes, but this is not thought to be the main way the virus spreads.
The fact that it's not "thought to be" the main way...
Says nothing about whether it's still significant and something worth trying to avoid.
Frankly, the fact that the CDC hasn't changed the guidance also means next to nothing, because we're not collecting information about anything other than the most obvious cases. I'm not saying that the guidelines shouldn't be taken into account, nor ignored: just that they seem more likely to be of the "take two aspirin and call me in the morning" variety, i.e., common rather than informed and specific advice.
That is an interesting article, but just so we are clear, he repeats exactly what I said: inhaled droplets. He then goes on to say inhalation of droplets is not historically what is referred to as “droplet transmission,” and goes on to discuss aerosols.
What about Purell gloves? Would that be possible? We’d all sort of be cleaning everything everywhere if it was possible (the disinfectant would have be to be kind of dry or dry quickly, while still letting you grip).
I thought about this too. Imagine a glove that had thousands of micro pores (like your skin) that would secrete a tiny droplet of Purell. But not enough to be wet. Just enough to create a layer of evaporating sanitizer between the glove and the surface. Possibly pressure activated so it's not secreting all the time.
And just to add to the brainstorm, just googled some ‘dry disinfectant spray’. Now I’m not saying make a full on Iron Man glove, but a pressure activated release of the spray could keep things dry. Plus we’d essentially be distributing the job of cleaning everything to everyone.
Or maybe it’s finally time for self disinfecting door knobs/faucets/lights/buttons.
Does anyone have a good explanation for the statistics of these types of data.
For instance, I've heard keep six feet away. However, I assume six feet is the distance where the chance of contracting is <0.1%, at five feet it is 1%, etc. etc. Nothing is black and white.
Is the chance of contracting it from a surface meaningful? Or simply the equivalent to "it is possible to catch it from someone 15 feet away even if extremely slim"
I don't have stats or references, but I heard on a pretty reputable podcast a couple of days ago that physical contact appears to be the biggest single vector for SARS-CoV-2. Hence the huge emphasis on hand washing.
And here I thought that hand washing was recommended like crazy to prevent people from getting the virus into their mouth, eyes and nose. The lack of accurate information is maddening.
I think that's what the grandparent is referring to: "physical contact" as opposed to "in aerosols". I don't think they meant actual physical contact with infected people.
Yes - that's what I mean. Virus gets onto hands via touching objects & surfaces, and from there to face.
Also (to be fair) if you want to increase your chances of getting accurate info you probably need to go to more credentialled sources than some random guy reporting on an unnamed podcast in an HN comment ;)
Six feet comes from the settling distance curves for droplets of different sizes. There may well be a hard cutoff where the probability is negligible under normal circumstances.
I'm currently quarantining a family member in my guest room, whom I don't know if they have a common cold or not. I'm wondering if just letting my ozone machine (5,000mg/hr) run after they're done in shared rooms, such as the bathroom etc. — unoccupied of course— would be enough to keep things sanitized.
COVID-19 CDC guidelines recommend droplet precautions[0], which means that the disease doesn't spread via the air. It spreads via droplets when you cough/sneeze. It's still bad, but it does mean that sharing air isn't a hazard by default.
If it was airborne, they would recommend different precautions[1].
Didn't some study recently say that in China a key practice for containment was removing infected family members from households and placing them in quarantine?
I'm a little skeptical of self-isolating in a home with other people. You're all in it together at that point.
I'm not sure "everyone in the house will catch it", but probably everyone will be exposed.
I do not, no A/C, just a central gas heater in the living room. We're both in our early 30s and decided that staying with me was less risky than possibly infecting older family members in the other household.
I feel fine so far, and the other person feels like they have a cold. Runny nose, mild cough due to throat irritation, no apparent fever.
254 nm is the emission peak of a low-pressure mercury lamp. Anything in that range will have a germicidal effect, but this happens to be a cheap and effective way of generating UV.
I'm curious about the intensity and length of time needed to break down viruses with this light. Just wondering if there's some a possibility to use a "light bomb" to sanitize a room--set a light on a pole in the middle of the room. Leave the room and close the door, then trigger it for some length of time. Just an idle musing I had.
> Make sure they are made by a reputable manufacturer, and that you get them from a reputable distributor...
Any recommendations? I'm guessing Amazon isn't the place to find them right now since I'm not seeing much. Google found a few, but some have shady/low-effort websites.
There was no paper no study not even a report. It's just an urban legend. Today a chinese paper got released in which they tested it on 4 resos apes. After 28 days and a shot of the virus with a 10e6 viral load. Showed no reinfection. That's the only scientfic study we have right now.
you probably will, or already have. about half of Diamond Princess cruise ship passengers tested positive but were asymptomatic.
edit: of course that could have been the latent period at the beginning - not saying they all /stayed/ asymptomatic, just that it may already have arrived.
> The scientists found that severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) was detectable in aerosols for up to three hours, up to four hours on copper, up to 24 hours on cardboard and up to two to three days on plastic and stainless steel.
New rule is gonna be 48 hour quarantine for any packages.
I've started wrapping shared touch surfaces (doorknobs, handles, etc) in my apartment with copper tape. It's pretty cheap ($12 for 66ft on Amazon). You do need to be careful about gripping the surfaces though, because the sharp edges in the copper foil can cause small cuts which would actually make you more susceptible to viral infection.
They may not be. Copper is antimicrobial and sometimes gets used in hospitals for things like railings because it helps prevent the spread of infection.
Interesting that the virus remains potent on plastic and stainless steel longer than cardboard. One would expect non-porous surfaces (e.g. steel) to be more "clean".
One possible reason: Cardboard absorbs moist, which is neccesary for the virus to stay active. Non-porous surfaces don't.
In addition, it was a lab experiment and from what I read, neither is it known how big the droplets were they tested with nor does anybody know how many virus particles are present in real droplets and how many might be transfered by smiring. Drying of droplets might happen faster or slower in practice, based on the environmental conditions.
And before quarantining your next package for days, just remember: Washing your hands will get rid of the virus, it doesn't travel through the skin - you would have to rub it in eyes, nose or mouth.
That's probably not long enough unless you live someplace hot and dry like Kuwait. Previous viability studies have found it stable up to 9 days. Furthermore, low temperatures and high humidity greatly increase viability for additional days. Also, fomite materials such as stainless steel extend the viability of it further.
Given the lack of specific data, two week quarantine is the practice we're using at home. Unboxing things isn't as important as mitigating the threat of insufficiently-characterized, novel pathogens that our immune systems have basically no experience with.
What's concerning to me as a definite non-scientist is that cardboard is the only one of these materials that is porous and "rippable", would it be theoretically possible for the virus to go airborne if you rip up contaminated cardboard?
There's a referenced journal article on the Coronavirus Wikipedia page [0] that says other coronaviruses can survive up to 9 days [1]. Can anyone corroborate?
There seems to be a lot of contradicting stuff out there (and perhaps some "feel like you're doing something" stuff too). It'll take a lot of time before a consensus is actually reached.
If I contaminate my elbow then rub it against you, then you are now carrying and spreading the virus. If you touch your elbow at any time, you are now at risk of infection (let alone if you actually cough into your elbow).
would a few hours in the oven at 150 work to sanitize a package? (assuming the contents can tolerate that, and i don't burn down my house with the cardboard igniting)
114 comments
[ 5.7 ms ] story [ 90.2 ms ] thread[1] https://www.pphsn.net/Activities/PICNet/SECTION_7.pdf , page 101
The best appears to be copper, which is 4 hours[1] which is why I bought some copper tape online and wrapped shared touch surfaces in my apartment with it (though be careful to avoid getting cuts when you grip it).
1. https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/03/14/8116090...
Maybe we can develop good ideas? What about these ideas:
* Vitamin/mineral pills
* fruit juice / pureed fruit/vegetables (for secondary plant substances)
* Visiting the grocery store when few customers are there
* Apply cream to your hands. I always wash my hands often. They can become dry and tiny wounds occur. If lemon juice hurts your hands then it's bad. Germs can get into the tiny wounds.
* Additionally, wear plastic gloves.
This is becoming hard with a lot of grocery stores reducing their hours now. Our local store is only open 8-8 vs 24hours normally; I'd love to go around 10 or 11pm like we normally do.
1. Opening cereal/cracker/other boxes with gloves on, taking out the bag inside the box, and recycling the box. I figure the interior bag hasn't been touched in days, typically, if it was ever touched by human hands.
2. For other things, like bread, I've been moving the bread into clean ziploc bags.
3. Washing things like Apples and plastic milk jugs with soap and water.
Feels pretty paranoid but seems to make sense right now.
It's not helping you and YOU (YES YOU) ARE CAUSING PANIC FOR PEOPLE. You are not helping. Disconnect your internet and stfu.
So it seems a bit better than a free for all at the supermarket?
I just got the mail, with gloves, and left it in the garage. Same thing with an Amazon package yesterday.
but I read somewhere that the half-life of this thing in direct sunlight is 2.5 minutes so after an hour or so it's pretty much gone if that's true.
There also doesn't seem to be any attempt at reproduction so far. So, good information to have, but we can't take the numbers as literal and absolute -- more like a lower bound.
> The virus is thought to spread mainly from person-to-person.
> - Between people who are in close contact with one another (within about 6 feet).
> - Through respiratory droplets produced when an infected person coughs or sneezes.
> These droplets can land in the mouths or noses of people who are nearby or possibly be inhaled into the lungs.
And:
> It may be possible that a person can get COVID-19 by touching a surface or object that has the virus on it and then touching their own mouth, nose, or possibly their eyes, but this is not thought to be the main way the virus spreads.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prepare/transmissi...
Says nothing about whether it's still significant and something worth trying to avoid.
Frankly, the fact that the CDC hasn't changed the guidance also means next to nothing, because we're not collecting information about anything other than the most obvious cases. I'm not saying that the guidelines shouldn't be taken into account, nor ignored: just that they seem more likely to be of the "take two aspirin and call me in the morning" variety, i.e., common rather than informed and specific advice.
Not true
http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/03/commentar...
So... ok.
What if I touch my keyboard with dirty hands... it's not like I never type?
Time to clean the mouse and keyboard ;)
Or maybe it’s finally time for self disinfecting door knobs/faucets/lights/buttons.
But yes, you are correct.
For instance, I've heard keep six feet away. However, I assume six feet is the distance where the chance of contracting is <0.1%, at five feet it is 1%, etc. etc. Nothing is black and white.
Is the chance of contracting it from a surface meaningful? Or simply the equivalent to "it is possible to catch it from someone 15 feet away even if extremely slim"
Also (to be fair) if you want to increase your chances of getting accurate info you probably need to go to more credentialled sources than some random guy reporting on an unnamed podcast in an HN comment ;)
I'm currently quarantining a family member in my guest room, whom I don't know if they have a common cold or not. I'm wondering if just letting my ozone machine (5,000mg/hr) run after they're done in shared rooms, such as the bathroom etc. — unoccupied of course— would be enough to keep things sanitized.
This is all incredibly stressing.
If it was airborne, they would recommend different precautions[1].
[0]: https://www.who.int/csr/disease/coronavirus_infections/preve...
[1]: http://www.wikidifference.com/difference-between-airborne-an...
> The household secondary attack rate was 15%
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.03.20028423v...
I'm a little skeptical of self-isolating in a home with other people. You're all in it together at that point.
I'm not sure "everyone in the house will catch it", but probably everyone will be exposed.
If runny nose, then more likely to be common cold.
One way to disinfect is put disinfectant/alcohol in a spray bottle and spray places where the virus is likely to be.
Another way is to put a simple mask on the sick person.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prepare/children-f...
I feel fine so far, and the other person feels like they have a cold. Runny nose, mild cough due to throat irritation, no apparent fever.
Make sure they are made by a reputable manufacturer, and that you get them from a reputable distributor that tests for proper maximum UVC efficiency.
Was wondering if places like Amazon considered adding UV lamps into the process to reduce contamination potential.
So good idea!
You can easily burn your skin or eyes.
Any recommendations? I'm guessing Amazon isn't the place to find them right now since I'm not seeing much. Google found a few, but some have shady/low-effort websites.
- The test may have had a false negative
- The viral load was low due to anti-virals, and subsequently re-surged once off them
- The person has a compromised immune system and cannot form proper immunity.
edit: of course that could have been the latent period at the beginning - not saying they all /stayed/ asymptomatic, just that it may already have arrived.
Anything newer than 15 years ago?
New rule is gonna be 48 hour quarantine for any packages.
Mist it with rubbing alcohol and stick it in a sunny corner for a few days.
I think at some point we need to not make this an environmental disaster from over consumption of disposable items.
It's really starting to get a bit out of hand.
I just wipe them down with disinfecting wipes, then wash my hands after disposing the box.
In addition, it was a lab experiment and from what I read, neither is it known how big the droplets were they tested with nor does anybody know how many virus particles are present in real droplets and how many might be transfered by smiring. Drying of droplets might happen faster or slower in practice, based on the environmental conditions.
And before quarantining your next package for days, just remember: Washing your hands will get rid of the virus, it doesn't travel through the skin - you would have to rub it in eyes, nose or mouth.
Given the lack of specific data, two week quarantine is the practice we're using at home. Unboxing things isn't as important as mitigating the threat of insufficiently-characterized, novel pathogens that our immune systems have basically no experience with.
What's concerning to me as a definite non-scientist is that cardboard is the only one of these materials that is porous and "rippable", would it be theoretically possible for the virus to go airborne if you rip up contaminated cardboard?
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019%E2%80%9320_coronavirus_pa...
[1] https://www.journalofhospitalinfection.com/article/S0195-670...
OP's article is really about Covid-19, having been tested on some specific surfaces.
Also Government: elbow bump instead of handshake
There seems to be a lot of contradicting stuff out there (and perhaps some "feel like you're doing something" stuff too). It'll take a lot of time before a consensus is actually reached.
Make it copper? Or how about a UV light shining on it when it’s hung up.
I am hoping that the similarity extends to SARS v1's sensitivity to temperature.
They publish a transcript for every episode. For this one it isn't available yet. Otherwise I'd c/p the section.
1: https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/info/15-Infizierte-werden-off...
https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/info/coronaskript128.pdf
(page 2 of 5)
(Yes, I'm being sarcastic from the amount of paranoid questions being asked here).
to what purpose? to deride the cautious, or the panicked?
What's paranoid at this stage? There's a virus that spreads rapidly killing people around the world.
Do you have some guidelines for us un-informed to easily sift through the paranoia like you can?
(now THAT is sarcasm)