I'm a cargo cult programmer, help me

Your path forward probably should be determined by the kind of work you want to do, but I think you know this.

Certainly don't be sucked into the new technologies because they're cool. Nor should you necessarily get a CS degree, depending on the work you want to do. You sound like you want to learn everything ever about computing, but that's a recipe for frustration and won't necessarily help you.

But anyway, good luck.

So, I think your feeling of incompetence may be just a feeling of being totally bored by doing the same thing for five years. If you got a job that, say, demanded you immediately learn how to make feature changes on a PHP site, I expect you could do it fine.

This doesn't cover everything in your post, though -- you're right, it does take years to become a kernel or compiler hacker. There's plenty of work to be done with fewer prerequisites than those two.

One bit of advice: Try to learn a bit about proper testing as you are learning your new language, it will be easier than trying to do it after you've learned and testing will help you build confidence in your abilities in the new language.

Two good books:

"Learn Python the Hard Way" by Zed Shaw http://learnpythonthehardway.org/static/LearnPythonTheHardWa...

and/or

"Why’s (Poignant) Guide to Ruby" by _why http://mislav.uniqpath.com/poignant-guide/

Most non-rockstars forget Unix commands, it's not a big deal and you can help yourself by writing up a cheatsheet or googling for one. Practice and muscle memory helps.

I haven't had a chance to check it out but there is a PacktPub book on Python algorithms which looks interesting: "Python Algorithms: Mastering Basic Algorithms in the Python Language" by Magnus Lie Hetland

Good luck!

Do not feel down about feeling stupid or inadequate, just keep working in a reasoned manner towards your goal.

You will get there.

Start here: http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?part=...

The thing that is different about installing gentoo vs centos or ubuntu is that instead of something that looks like this:

     Would you like to format the disk (click yes or no)?

I don't recall if Ubuntu even tells you what lilo or grub is.

The reason I like this is that it forces you to understand what is going on. What is the /boot partition? Why is that important?

Installing gentoo is going to force you to use tar, and wget. It's going to force you to get comfortable on the command line.

It's also going to force you to understand what a kernel module is. It's going to force you to understand things like: what chipset does my wireless card use?

It's hard. And it takes forever. And it probably won't work the first time.

To me, it's kindof a rite of passage, like telling a carpenter that he has to build his workbench before he is allowed to start working on anything else. The workbench he makes might suck...hopefully this causes him to want to keep building new workbenches until he has one that is perfect.

http://norvig.com/21-days.html

"Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs"

http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html

Every algorithm & data structure worth implementing has been implemented in C and is probably available in an open source project. You can download Redis, which is fantastic code and covers all the basics. Take one of these projects and start trying to mold it to your will.

Write specialized string parsers in C for doing simple things you'd normally do with a script. If you do it right, it'll be several orders of magnitude faster.

Learn to use the GNU debugger.

Take blocks of algorithmic code you've written, learn pthreads, make them concurrent, and actually able to achieve linear increases in speed as you add cores.

Your greatest ally will be well-written open source code.

I just don't want to be a cargo cult programmer anymore Then don't be. The main thing to do is Practice (note: work isn't practice.) Basically build something, but at every step of the way try different approaches and measure the results of what happened. Every step of the way look for ways to improve what you do.

The point is that you shouldn't try to do something, you should do it, i.e., you "span" a desire in your soul and you go along the feeling, the "thinking" is just for control, not substance... at first you will litteraly be bugged by thoughts like "i'm not good enogh for this" etc... aknowledge the existence of those thoughts, and then throw them away.

Yours is a post about bad self-fulfilling prophecies.

It's not really a matter of intelligence for the most part, it's only a matter of experience.

PS.: oh, and AFTER you got rid of the bad self-fulfilling prophecies, you could try to create some good ones :)

Good luck, you are going to need it

As mentioned before me, you can learn a lot on the job. One of the best dev's I know never finished college either.

I am always looking up the proper syntax of commands (find -exec anyone?) It just takes repetition and the constant thought that "maybe there's a command that does this better".

Finally, put down the math books. Put down the compiler books. Data structures and algorithms, sure, but those others. Bah! Now, if you want a supplementary book that helps a ton, pick up a patterns book, preferably the "Gang of Four" book (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_Patterns). It helped me to look at problems in a bit more of a formal sense, and it allows me to say "Oh this is such and such a pattern" and other devs get it immediately.

Don't get discouraged. You may just need a new job where you are mentored if you feel like your skills and experience is meaningless. Your desire to learn and your passion for your chosen career make you a fertile ground for training.

Good Luck!

I doubt this is true. Rather, I think your currently ad-hoc way of trying to learn things is not effective. In other words, it has been your method, not you. One of the benefits of a formal education is knowing what is out there, even if you don't know it yet. (Knowing what you don't know.) That means you can go and learn it as you need to.

I suspect your difficulty with "thinking out of the box" is that you just haven't been exposed to alternate ways of doing things.

My point: you're not stupid. Learning all of this stuff even when someone says "this is what you should learn" is hard. Learning it when you have to figure out what to learn is even harder. Many people here will disagree with me, but I think a formal education is valuable for the reasons I stated. But, you said that's not an option for you now. So I recommend doing basically what you're doing: use existing textbooks to find out what you should learn, and learn it. Treat going through those books like a course. Many university courses also have the course syllabus online - looking through those for topics you should research yourself is also valuable. And, of course, MIT's Open Course Ware (http://ocw.mit.edu/index.htm) was designed with students like you in mind.

It might be a knee-jerk reaction on my end when it comes to to the whole "maybe I'm not smart enough", but you're showing awareness of your own (current) limits, which isn't something to speak lightly of.

What are your experiences with problem solving? It's something you learn, like most things. You might not be able to 'think' in that fashion now, but I know quite a few people who swear their brains and perspectives have been reprogrammed through forcing themselves to study math despite lack of talent, and in my own experience you can learn to flex and twist your mind much like you can your body, even if just like with your body it might be easier or harder in some directions.

You might however lack the aptitude which make it more fun to engage in or otherwise lead many more savvy to programming and CS, and only you can decide wheter this is something that slows you down or stops you dead.

When I did martial arts, I had some students who were dismissive towards their less sports-savvy comrade since they took longer or had a harder time to learn the basics; but what they forgot were that they'd already learned all the periphery skills of using their body from other sports, for them it was a simple matter of learning one more skill atop their experience and skill at already using their bodies, the ones who were having troubles were learning several more skillsets at once since they hadn't up to that point.

The same could apply to you, people have the opportunity to learn or understand different things at different points in their lives; some lessons some of my friends learned when they were 12 which other friends learned when they were 60, partially since they hadn't had the opportunity to truly learn or understand them until then.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, try not to be discouraged because it's hard; it can sometimes mean you're not aware of all the things on your plate at the moment, and even if it feels you're failing you're probably learning something else that's also beneficial while you do.

Sorry for semi-rant, but that's the part I felt remotely competent to comment on.

I do however agree that projects are the way to go if you wish to learn or remember. I and my friends learn more from our personal pet projects than we've ever done at our University.

1. Do you work with other experienced and passionate programmers who can mentor you?(http://chadfowler.com/2011/02/24/be-careful-of-who-you-work-...)

2. Do you know how to learn? A lot of people assume it just comes down to reading the material, I found this book explains the process quite well and it is put in the context of a software developer looking to attain mastery http://www.pragprog.com/titles/ahptl/pragmatic-thinking-and-...

3. Have you "cultivated your gurus" so to speak? Putting up a post on HN is a great start, but continually involving yourself in discussions in the greater community will help you to tap into a source of experienced mentors even if you don't work with them. Find groups for topics you are interested in and then involve yourself, ask questions, learn, then contribute to the discussion yourself.

4. Have you considered getting involved in some open source projects? These are a great place to learn from others as well.

In the end learning isn't generally as simple as just reading a few books for most people. I would consider starting with a few books on how to get your career development and your learning process on the right track and then go from there. Even if you do decide you're not cut out for programming, what you learn from those books will be valuable no matter what path you choose.

The books I'd recommend:

http://www.pragprog.com/titles/ahptl/pragmatic-thinking-and-...

http://www.pragprog.com/titles/tpp/the-pragmatic-programmer

http://www.pragprog.com/titles/cfcar2/the-passionate-program... (will admit to not reading this one but I hear very good things)

Yes I realize these are all PragPro books, what can I say, they are that good.

Which describes how math books (and other technical books by nature) should be read and studied. Don't think after reading a paragraph, you should understand everything. Take it slow, and take the time to work out things on your own, the more this happens the easier it gets.

Also, whether you are good or not at problem solving, just remember that you should be enjoying the process of solving problems, not necessarily just the answer. It took Steven Hawking 29 years to make a big step of progress with Black Holes. Experimenting is just as important as the thought process is. Read something, test it, break it, try to fix it.

You also stated you had difficulty looking from new perspectives. This is tricky, but first get your creativity flowing, then ask all of these question. Why? How? Why Not (INSERT SOMETHING ELSE)? Will it work with this? What is the fundamental idea? Is there a way to change the implementation of how this is done, while still maintaining the proper outcome? Scribble down your ideas, and play with them.

For example, I remember when I was trying to fix my indoor toy flying helicopter after the plastic broke on one of the propellers. Instead of taping it I asked myself, what it was exactly I was trying to do, which was reconnect a broken plastic propeller. Then I asked myself what ways this could be done. After fooling a bit, I decided that since it was plastic I could simply melt it back together. You just have to learn to break things down, and chunk them together, and play with the elements of a problem.

Keep reading, learning, most importantly have some fun.

When I wanted to learn C, I bought six or seven books, some of which came with a compiler. I read each book.

Now that probably sounds like I am a genius, sucking down information directly from the text. But what really happened wasn't so flattering at all: I flailed. It wasn't until the third book or so that I finally got anything to compile, and I think it was book 4 where I figured out how the hell to read pointers.

I really sucked at learning programming.

When I picked up C++, we were on a family vacation. The kids all played in the pool and did fun stuff. I sat by the pool and read C++ books. If I thought C was tough, C++ was a killer.

I finally got it, though.

Last year, when I wanted to finally learn Functional Programming (I'm 45) I did the same thing. And this time, guess what? Even after the books I sucked.

So I started writing little projects, which also sucked. I went back and read the books again. I wrote some more code. I still suck at it, but I suck a little less. Perhaps in another year or two I'll consider myself proficient.

Yes, it is terribly awesome to sit down in front of a client with a tough problem and do some wizardry on the screen and feel like the hero. I spent my 20s and part of my 30s being the super-hero star guy. I had a blast.

But that's just hot-dogging: showboating. (People do it for fun and to make their job more like a theater performance) In reality for every one of those times I was showboating there were hundreds of hours spent trying to figure out what the hell was going on with something.

I think it might be easy to look at other coders who are like I was and get the wrong impression. Yes, some folks are smarter or have a better recall than others, but guys with huge recall ability many times get wrapped up in some kind of minutia that's not important to the team. Everybody has flaws. This will sound very strange to hear, but it's true: you can be the worst programmer on a programming team and be the most valuable and critical person there. I've seen it happen dozens of times.

The question is: are you working at making yourself better? Not how smart you are, how you feel about programming, or any of that. Just a simple question about what kinds of habits you have in place to continue to improve. If you have those habits, you'll either become a better coder or eventually work out what you're meant to do. But you have to have those habits first.

So my advice is a little less angst and a little more work. Both to you and me :)

EDIT: By some kind of weird twist of fate I have been thinking about this a lot recently, because I was writing a review of the best book I've ever read that improved my coding, Code Complete. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2263127

What are your soft skills (social, sales etc) like? There is a real sweet spot for people that can span both worlds. That role is a lot of fun too.

Sorry, but I'm not proficient at everything of this (especially Linux, maths and algorithms), and still I consider myself a talented coder. I'm very skilled at gluing code together (gluing with skill, not throwing things together). At the end of the day, what matters is whether you can make things work, and nothing else.

> OTOH I have given thought about if programming is really for me, I have found that I'm really, really bad at problem solving and "thinking outside of the box" I have come to accept that I'm really not smart. I'm slow, forgetfull, concepts never seem to stick, I have to force myself to not take things for granted, it seems no matter how hard i try I can't look at problems from different perspectives and understand the implications of a particular solution, I'm starting to think I may have a learning dissability, or that is because I lack the basic toolkit for problem solving, but I really think I'm just not very smart.

I think that before learning to think out of the box, you should start to live out of the box. Join an acting class, especially one where improvisation is stressed (I recommend you find an acting school which teaches Lecoq's method). Challenge yourself to do things you are bad at (in the beginning, I was very very bad at acting).

Try finding similarities between things in different subjects. Read "Neruda's Postman" by Skarmeta to learn what a metaphors are and how to find them. The more different the areas of human activity you'll know, the better you will be at spotting similarities and challenging your ways of doing things.

Relax. That's true for 99% of all programmers.

Eventually I plan on going back to a real University and getting a CS degree

Absolutely not necessary. You will probably learn more building anything than learning it in school.

I'm starting to think I may have a learning dissability

Maybe you do, maybe you don't. Just because the rest of the world is quick to diagnose everything doesn't mean you have to.

I have come to accept that I'm really not smart. I'm slow, forgetfull, concepts never seem to stick

Your performance shortcomings could be for many reasons. Being "really not smart" is the least likely of any of them. They are much more likely caused by other things like uninteresting work, poor environment, personal issues, nasty people, or even health issues. Whether you're "smart" or not, thinking that your aren't is pretty much a guarantee for failure. Please don't do that.

I have started going through the basic Algo's and Data structures again with a basic Java book about algorithms

Sorry to say, but you're just doing it the hardest way you can. You don't need a book; you need a project. I (like many others here, I'm sure) have achieved much, but have always had difficulty learning from books and theory. It's hard! You need to find work where the things you need to learn will be required. Funny how quickly and easily you'll find a way to learn them when you actually need them. I'm not sure how you should go about finding such work, but I imagine many responses in this thread do.

I just don't want to be a cargo cult programmer anymore.

Good. That makes your normal.

And finally trying to memorise all those linux commands I ALWAYS forget.

Then use less commands. I have never used more that 10% of what was available in any technology and I always got the job done.

I have to force myself

This is the most important thing you have said.

Have you ever actually enjoyed building stuff? Have you ever gotten really "jazzed" about the project you were working on? Have you ever leapt up out of your seat and danced when you got something working?

If you answered "yes" to any of these questions, then you really do have the passion to be a programmer. Stop selling yourself short and listen to the great advice you're sure to get here from fellow Hacker News'ers.

If you answered "yes" to none of these questions, then there's no sense for you to continue wasting your time searching for the passion. If you haven't experienced any by now, then you probably never will. No one should have to "force themself" to love what they're doing. Find something else.

P.S. Sorry about your father. Loss affects each of us differently. And don't worry about your English. It's fine. Please give yourself your best chance to succeed and keep us posted. Best wishes.

Algorithms and Data structures. I have CS and Applied Math degrees, but honestly - very rarely I have to recall the inner workings of specific algorithms and data structures. It is useful to know how it all works, but not as important as you may think. You can certainly follow "fake it till you make it" approach: you need to remember memory and time complexities of the data structures and some implications, e.g. "hash tables have asymptotically O(1) search time but may consume more memory than red-black trees that provide O(log(n)) search time but have guaranteed memory and search time constraints". And so on and so forth. So go ahead and read Cormen with that in mind.

Also, my guess is that you need only as much CS as you need to become a better software developer. I don't think you want to be a theoretical computer scientist, do you?

In your situation I would also recommend reading following books:

"Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs". Honestly, to CS graduate it reads like a book for preschoolers but it is very beautifully written and is almost zen-like. And it will definitely help you understand what programming is about if you did not get proper formal training.

"Design Patterns". It is not a CS, but Software Engineering book. It provides a framework for your software design skills. You can be a great programmer without reading that book, but then you have to be exposed to a lot of beautifully designed code, and that book will save you a lot of time.

Find a popular and stable open source project that is closest to what you are doing now or what you want to do and read the code, look at the build infrastructure, documentation, try to get involved and maybe even fix some bugs, starting from simplest ones and moving up to features. You'll get a lot of brutally honest peer reviews, just don't abuse it.

Hope that helps.

Come up with your own curriculum then. Invent homework assignments like the following:

1. Install a linux distribution: http://www.ubuntu.com/desktop/get-ubuntu/download

2. Install the languages you mentioned: sudo apt-get install sbcl ruby

3. Type 'irb', 'python','sbcl' to open interpreters for Ruby, Python, or Lisp

4. List the names of all the data structures and algorithms you've heard of and their operations. Be sure to include hashtables and b+ trees.

5. List the worst\best\average case runtimes for each operation.

6. Describe a practical use case for each.

7. Implement each by typing directly into one of the above interpreters.

You'll learn much faster, always get A's, and not have to spend any money.

You are stuck being a cargo-cult architecture-astronaut because you are stuck in a language that exemplifies and encourages it. ROR and python, while perfectly good in themselves, will allow you to stay there. My advice would be to take something 'horrible' but useful - PHP springs to mind - and play with it. Do fun stuff just for the hell of it. Do things quickly, not correctly. Correct things one by one and see which things actually make a difference, and which things were a complete waste of your time.

Memorising linux commands? What? Slap! Write yourself a cheat-sheet and remove that excuse from your head immediately. It'll take you 5 minutes. If it takes you longer, you're doing it again. Stop making the perfect cheat-sheet that covers every example of everything you may ever need, and write the 5-minuter that covers 95% of it.

Set a line between the front of what you're doing and the back. In front of the line, everything must be neat, useful and functional. Behind the line you can do whatever you please. The line is the part of the 'achieving things' model that cargo-cults miss - the difference between practice and theory. You might even surprise yourself about your coding ability once you start evaluating things that way.

Congratulations! You have just discovered that you have an asset! Forgetfulness, an awareness of one's limitations and an understanding that learning can be challenging are all things that actual newbs are not aware of. You no longer suffer from hubris.

Your newfound recognition of your limitations is the foundation upon which you must build and shore up a structure for acquiring new knowledge, outlining plans which recognize your limitations and executing these plans in a predictable manner.

These problems are the same problems that most programmers (hell, most people) face. This is what the life-hacking movement is about. It is about understanding that we are all human, and that improvement in our lives requires recognition of our weaknesses.

If something is not working for you, what you should do is look for alternative methods to achieve your goal. If you do not absorb knowledge through reading books or theories, perhaps reading code would be better for you, or perhaps you are a social learner and need to talk to other programmers about what it is that they do.

Remember that every challenge is an opportunity. There are even people who have turned their quests for self improvement into niches and businesses in their own right. If you see something that doesn't make sense to you, it may not make sense to other people. If you find a way to make a task easier, others might find it useful too.

I hit the point you're at about 5 years ago. I'm beginning to feel competent and trust my ability to build things. There's a lot more that i want to learn and become better at. It's a long process, but many have tread the path before you, and many will follow in your steps.

G'luck.

about halfway through there is a list of common things even the toughest interviewers in the industry ask about. Read about all of those just to get a good overview. He just talks about interships but those skills will get you fulltime also. Trust me a bunch of people would love to have that guy full time.

Second you have to read yegge. http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/03/get-that-job-at-goog...

He'll help you fill out most of the rest of what you need to know but most importantly teach you about a subject that will make you feel alot better about what you feel like you don't know. The interview Anti-Loop. Basically two interviewers at a large enough company could interview each other and no-hire each other because of the questions they would ask in an interview but are only there because a third that has different interests interviewed both of them.

Now you've got the basics of what you need to learn more about which is largely data structures and algorithms.

Now you're ready to do some functional programming. learn some lisp. I happen to be reading the excellent Land of Lisp book myself now and recommend that also their is http://learnyouahaskell.com/starting-out. I'm sure there are other free online resources other guys here will point out also

Now you can get into Norvig and SICP and go even deeper.

"Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years" http://norvig.com/21-days.html

"Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs" http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html

I didn't start with them because Norvig starts out discouraging you ,not that he isn't right about how it will take time to improve just that you will be amazed at how fast you can move when you really want it, and SICP can be really daunting if you start with it.

Also there is a great well of books and tutorials online about all the things you want to learn. Compliers to the cormen book you mentioned. The fact that you tried with that book means you are on the right track and you will get it.

Also I can't forget http://www.topcoder.com/ http://projecteuler.net/

and newcomer http://www.coderloop.com/

Those sites are places to hone your skills by working on coding problems. The biggest thing you have to do is pick some topics/ problems you are interested in and CODE.

You'll be surprise how far you get and how fast you can get there.

I'm obviously not in a position to evaluate your IQ, but to me you sound pretty average. If you stick with your determination to get better, you'll be better than average in a few years, because most people don't.