Copper and Silver appear to have a protective effect vs. bacterial, viral and fungal infections, while not destroying healthy tissue.
Perhaps we've committed a mistake similar to that of the British Admiralty, who replaced scurvy-preventing lemon juice with ineffective lime juice in 1860 (https://idlewords.com/2010/03/scott_and_scurvy.htm).
By replacing copper and silver in common use (door-knobs, hand rails, cutlery), we've inadvertently exposed our populations to increased viral and bacterial infection.
but at the same time, there's more anti-bacterial soap, better cleaning products and methods, improvements in material science for non-porous, easy to clean surfaces. so overall, it's possible we experience much less exposure, despite the lack of these metals in our immediate environment.
in any case, it isn't obvious that a (small?) increase in exposure would necessarily be bad for the immune system and people. there's evidence that reduced microbial exposures in children leads to an increase in allergies (e.g. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1838109/)
> there's more anti-bacterial soap, better cleaning products and methods,
Metal door knobs and rails are passive, you don't need to think about them for them to be effective [0]. And you can't hoard metal door knobs as easily as hand sanitiser and masks.
They are also preventative in a way that hand washing is not.
I don't know how to effectively express the difference. I've been trying to think about how because I wish we put more emphasis on "stop touching your face" than on hand washing.
Hand washing kind of assumes you will continue to be a grubby person, mindlessly touching your face and everyone you know and all kinds of stuff all the time. And it's going to be okay because you washed it off, hopefully before it made you ill and hopefully before you passed it on.
But in reality, it's far better to skew your focus towards stop touching stuff, etc, than to focus on washing hands so much.
Don't get me wrong. I wash hands a metric fuckton. But I'm also amazingly careful about not touching stuff.
It's kind of the difference between saying "Free love is totes fine! Just wear a condom!" And "It's best to only sleep with people you know well in a committed monogamous relationship. Wear a condom for any exceptions whatsoever and we actively recommend against orgies. Sorry to be a bummer, but orgies are never a hygiene best practice."
I'm sorry if I'm making no sense. I'm actively working on trying to figure out how to say this well cuz Reasons.
Because it’s expensive and in short supply? There’s a reason why salvagers and squatters will often rip out any copper wiring and piping they can find in an abandoned structure.
> It doesn't seem like we'll run out of copper in the near future, according to the World Copper Factbook from 2019. Copper is one of the most recycled of all metals—nearly all copper can be recycled and not lose any of its properties.
and
> Even when factoring in how much the copper cost initially, you'd make that money back in savings within two months, Schmidt said. And considering that the copper never loses its microbial killing abilities—hospitals would quickly be saving money (and lives).
True, but copper is the 26th commonest element in the Earth's crust at between 50 and 100 parts per million with an annual production of nearly 20 million tonne.
So it seems unlikely that will will run short of it soon, and if we do then we can simply reuse what we have used on door handles, etc.
It's recycled so much partly because it is easy and cheap to do and because copper that is contaminated making it unusable for electrical wire is still useful for other purposes such as plumbing.
Not an easy sell. Touch shiny copper once - it tarnishes. Fingerprints, handprints, smeary looking instantly. Hard to convince folks its clean, or better than clean, when it looks grody.
I noticed something interesting on the Reuters map of Covid-19 cases [0]. The map uses calibrated dots for each county that has reported a positive Covid-19 case. Some reports have not made it to the map and the NYC numbers haven't been updated since yesterday morning but the map is still informative.
I noticed a strong correlation between counties with reported infections and the route of interstate highways.
Take Texas, where I live - From Laredo all the way to DFW there are counties reporting outbreaks. Indeed, one can trace I-35 all the way across Oklahoma, Kansas, and on to Minnesota by the fairly regularly spaced county reports.
You can also trace the route of I-10 from San Antonio to Houston and all the way along the Gulf Coast to Florida. I-10 to the west of San Antonio crosses a lot of rural area and then the Permian Basin where all the oil and gas production activity is occurring. There are no reported outbreaks there yet. The Lubbock County cases north of the route of I-20 appeared yesterday. I think the blank spot in the Permian Basin area exists because anyone who has a job out there today will go to work if they still have a job whether they are sick or not. Many of the people working there are young and healthy too. I do expect to see cases pop up there over the next few days since spring breakers from the schools and colleges will be passing through or returning home from affected areas.
No matter where you look on the map, you can correlate counties affected with well-traveled highways and interstates.
I have been watching this map for days and it has been interesting. It is almost as if those people who became worried about Covid-19 elected to drive instead of fly and some of them were already infected or possibly that some people infected on a flight left the airports and headed home. As they traveled they were dispensing gasoline, grabbing burgers or burritos or chicken sandwiches, making a pit stop or just stretching their legs.
How does that tie into this article?
Since an infected person who doesn't know that they are infected will grab door handles, push buttons on ATMs and gas pump card readers, pump gas, open and close cooler doors to get refreshments, or handle cup lids after they dispense their drinks it is unlikely that all the transmission points could have been effectively sanitized especially since a lot of this travel probably occurred before officials were prepared to warn people about Covid-19.
If copper plating had been used for door handles, countertops, etc then some of this easy transmission could've prevented before it had a chance to start. Hospitals certainly have a well-documented history of being a great place to get more than you bargained for but the main threat to the average person appears to involve simply going on about your business and inadvertently coming into contact with something that an infected person touched.
Right now, we get to see what unchecked spread looks like when you have unrestricted travel.
I picture interstate truckers, spring breakers, business travelers who elected to rent a car and drive instead of flying as being significant vectors. The spacing of the counties in many cases is the spacing that one would see if a single infected traveler stopped every hour and a half for fuel or bathroom break.
I think a more likely explanation is that a heatmap of covid-19 cases will roughly mirror a heatmap of population density and interstate highways are built between populated areas almost by definition.
This is quite true about a map of the distribution of the cases will, over time, mirror a heat map of the population density.
I was not very clear about the point that I was trying to convey and I apologize for that.
I was attempting to make the point that the evolution of the map, with the daily updates, lends credence to the idea that a single infected person could be the source of the cases in multiple scattered areas and across several state lines.
I have followed this map and the updates since it was first added to the Reuters site. As expected, the first cases appeared very isolated and confined to the immediate area around King County, WA involving, I think, the care worker at the nursing home.
As the map evolved, other hot spots appeared.
In the last 4 or 5 days it has really begun to fill out to the point where the east coast has many contiguous counties with cases, the west coast also has filled out and the mid-continent likewise.
It was possible, if one followed the progression to see counties report cases that connected larger outbreaks with each other as the smaller cities between suddenly had something to report.
Today was a great example of that. This morning there were cases in western New Mexico in one county. This afternoon, we can suddenly see I-40 highlighted east-west and I-25 highlighted south-north into Colorado.
I realize that testing in every state is ramping up now so it is likely that none of those counties had any cases to report previously because they had run no tests and now they all received test results at the same time.
The interesting thing, having driven many of these highways myself over the years and some of them recently is that te spacing of the cases (new counties reporting) matches the approximate distance one would drive before needing a break for food, a restroom, or just a chance to stretch one's legs. When a connection appears between two larger cities in a way that fills in a case for each potential pit stop then it might be plausible that one traveler is responsible for that connection.
For example: Covid Mary starts in Dallas - destination Omaha. It's about a 10 hour drive most of which can be made on I-35. They may need a stretch just before or just after they roll into Oklahoma. Then the stops are Oklahoma City area; Wichita, Kansas; Emporia, Kansas; Topeka, Kansas; Omaha, Nebraska.
At each stop Mary gets gas, goes inside the store for a restroom break, goes in for a greasy taco or burger. Each time she goes in she grabs a door handle, a pump handle, a cooler handle, etc that has had hundreds of hands on it since the last cleaning and will have hundreds more until the next one. She isn't feeling particularly sick, yet anyway, but she has been coughing a bit into her hands as she drives.
Some random person who was unlucky enough to stop after she stopped at the various businesses grabs these handles or items that she has touched and then becomes a spreader. For them, the clock has just started before they get sick or before someone they contact gets sick. In a matter of days, some of these people grabbed the viral load from Mary's handle and carried it around to their families. Eventually one or more of them became sick enough to seek help.
When test results are posted, they highlight this travel path.
All the spread could've been mitigated if materials known to have anti-viral or anti-bacterial qualities had been used in the design and construction of the facilities visited by Covid Mary.
It was just a thought.
EDIT: The main idea was that Covid Mary took a trip between two larger cities. The journey involved multiple stops. In each town where she stopped someone became a carrier. That carrier spread to others in the small towns of the area. Once tests were available it was possible to see the route Mary - a single ill traveler on a long day's journey, traversed between where she was and where she wanted to be. Since the time of infection was similar for all of them they all appeared on the map at the same...
As it seems to be widely agreed that copper or copper alloy surfaces are a good idea does anyone have any suggestions for methods of applying copper to existing surfaces such as keyboards, mice, mobile phone cases, gloves, door handles, etc.
Could powdered copper suspended in some kind of water based lacquer work for instance?
23 comments
[ 2.5 ms ] story [ 67.8 ms ] threadPerhaps we've committed a mistake similar to that of the British Admiralty, who replaced scurvy-preventing lemon juice with ineffective lime juice in 1860 (https://idlewords.com/2010/03/scott_and_scurvy.htm).
By replacing copper and silver in common use (door-knobs, hand rails, cutlery), we've inadvertently exposed our populations to increased viral and bacterial infection.
in any case, it isn't obvious that a (small?) increase in exposure would necessarily be bad for the immune system and people. there's evidence that reduced microbial exposures in children leads to an increase in allergies (e.g. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1838109/)
Metal door knobs and rails are passive, you don't need to think about them for them to be effective [0]. And you can't hoard metal door knobs as easily as hand sanitiser and masks.
[0] if they are, I don't have an opinion on that.
I don't know how to effectively express the difference. I've been trying to think about how because I wish we put more emphasis on "stop touching your face" than on hand washing.
Hand washing kind of assumes you will continue to be a grubby person, mindlessly touching your face and everyone you know and all kinds of stuff all the time. And it's going to be okay because you washed it off, hopefully before it made you ill and hopefully before you passed it on.
But in reality, it's far better to skew your focus towards stop touching stuff, etc, than to focus on washing hands so much.
Don't get me wrong. I wash hands a metric fuckton. But I'm also amazingly careful about not touching stuff.
It's kind of the difference between saying "Free love is totes fine! Just wear a condom!" And "It's best to only sleep with people you know well in a committed monogamous relationship. Wear a condom for any exceptions whatsoever and we actively recommend against orgies. Sorry to be a bummer, but orgies are never a hygiene best practice."
I'm sorry if I'm making no sense. I'm actively working on trying to figure out how to say this well cuz Reasons.
That makes this "practice."
Sorry. (But not very.)
https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/antibacterial...
Overusing silver leads to blue pigmentation - hence 'blue blood' - as mostly upper classes used silver plates.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyria
> It doesn't seem like we'll run out of copper in the near future, according to the World Copper Factbook from 2019. Copper is one of the most recycled of all metals—nearly all copper can be recycled and not lose any of its properties.
and
> Even when factoring in how much the copper cost initially, you'd make that money back in savings within two months, Schmidt said. And considering that the copper never loses its microbial killing abilities—hospitals would quickly be saving money (and lives).
If we suddenly used it on everything, it'd be even more scarce.
So it seems unlikely that will will run short of it soon, and if we do then we can simply reuse what we have used on door handles, etc.
It's recycled so much partly because it is easy and cheap to do and because copper that is contaminated making it unusable for electrical wire is still useful for other purposes such as plumbing.
https://www.epa.gov/wqc/aquatic-life-criteria-copper
I noticed a strong correlation between counties with reported infections and the route of interstate highways.
Take Texas, where I live - From Laredo all the way to DFW there are counties reporting outbreaks. Indeed, one can trace I-35 all the way across Oklahoma, Kansas, and on to Minnesota by the fairly regularly spaced county reports.
You can also trace the route of I-10 from San Antonio to Houston and all the way along the Gulf Coast to Florida. I-10 to the west of San Antonio crosses a lot of rural area and then the Permian Basin where all the oil and gas production activity is occurring. There are no reported outbreaks there yet. The Lubbock County cases north of the route of I-20 appeared yesterday. I think the blank spot in the Permian Basin area exists because anyone who has a job out there today will go to work if they still have a job whether they are sick or not. Many of the people working there are young and healthy too. I do expect to see cases pop up there over the next few days since spring breakers from the schools and colleges will be passing through or returning home from affected areas.
No matter where you look on the map, you can correlate counties affected with well-traveled highways and interstates.
I have been watching this map for days and it has been interesting. It is almost as if those people who became worried about Covid-19 elected to drive instead of fly and some of them were already infected or possibly that some people infected on a flight left the airports and headed home. As they traveled they were dispensing gasoline, grabbing burgers or burritos or chicken sandwiches, making a pit stop or just stretching their legs.
How does that tie into this article?
Since an infected person who doesn't know that they are infected will grab door handles, push buttons on ATMs and gas pump card readers, pump gas, open and close cooler doors to get refreshments, or handle cup lids after they dispense their drinks it is unlikely that all the transmission points could have been effectively sanitized especially since a lot of this travel probably occurred before officials were prepared to warn people about Covid-19.
If copper plating had been used for door handles, countertops, etc then some of this easy transmission could've prevented before it had a chance to start. Hospitals certainly have a well-documented history of being a great place to get more than you bargained for but the main threat to the average person appears to involve simply going on about your business and inadvertently coming into contact with something that an infected person touched.
Right now, we get to see what unchecked spread looks like when you have unrestricted travel.
I picture interstate truckers, spring breakers, business travelers who elected to rent a car and drive instead of flying as being significant vectors. The spacing of the counties in many cases is the spacing that one would see if a single infected traveler stopped every hour and a half for fuel or bathroom break.
Just something I noticed. What do y'all think? [0] https://www.reuters.com/
https://xkcd.com/1138/
I was not very clear about the point that I was trying to convey and I apologize for that.
I was attempting to make the point that the evolution of the map, with the daily updates, lends credence to the idea that a single infected person could be the source of the cases in multiple scattered areas and across several state lines.
I have followed this map and the updates since it was first added to the Reuters site. As expected, the first cases appeared very isolated and confined to the immediate area around King County, WA involving, I think, the care worker at the nursing home.
As the map evolved, other hot spots appeared.
In the last 4 or 5 days it has really begun to fill out to the point where the east coast has many contiguous counties with cases, the west coast also has filled out and the mid-continent likewise.
It was possible, if one followed the progression to see counties report cases that connected larger outbreaks with each other as the smaller cities between suddenly had something to report.
Today was a great example of that. This morning there were cases in western New Mexico in one county. This afternoon, we can suddenly see I-40 highlighted east-west and I-25 highlighted south-north into Colorado.
I realize that testing in every state is ramping up now so it is likely that none of those counties had any cases to report previously because they had run no tests and now they all received test results at the same time.
The interesting thing, having driven many of these highways myself over the years and some of them recently is that te spacing of the cases (new counties reporting) matches the approximate distance one would drive before needing a break for food, a restroom, or just a chance to stretch one's legs. When a connection appears between two larger cities in a way that fills in a case for each potential pit stop then it might be plausible that one traveler is responsible for that connection.
For example: Covid Mary starts in Dallas - destination Omaha. It's about a 10 hour drive most of which can be made on I-35. They may need a stretch just before or just after they roll into Oklahoma. Then the stops are Oklahoma City area; Wichita, Kansas; Emporia, Kansas; Topeka, Kansas; Omaha, Nebraska.
At each stop Mary gets gas, goes inside the store for a restroom break, goes in for a greasy taco or burger. Each time she goes in she grabs a door handle, a pump handle, a cooler handle, etc that has had hundreds of hands on it since the last cleaning and will have hundreds more until the next one. She isn't feeling particularly sick, yet anyway, but she has been coughing a bit into her hands as she drives.
Some random person who was unlucky enough to stop after she stopped at the various businesses grabs these handles or items that she has touched and then becomes a spreader. For them, the clock has just started before they get sick or before someone they contact gets sick. In a matter of days, some of these people grabbed the viral load from Mary's handle and carried it around to their families. Eventually one or more of them became sick enough to seek help.
When test results are posted, they highlight this travel path.
All the spread could've been mitigated if materials known to have anti-viral or anti-bacterial qualities had been used in the design and construction of the facilities visited by Covid Mary.
It was just a thought.
EDIT: The main idea was that Covid Mary took a trip between two larger cities. The journey involved multiple stops. In each town where she stopped someone became a carrier. That carrier spread to others in the small towns of the area. Once tests were available it was possible to see the route Mary - a single ill traveler on a long day's journey, traversed between where she was and where she wanted to be. Since the time of infection was similar for all of them they all appeared on the map at the same...
Could powdered copper suspended in some kind of water based lacquer work for instance?