I'm not convinced. Apple rethought how the pointer works in the context of the tablet. iPads have keyboard covers for a couple releases now and were always capable of using one - since the first version, which had a keyboard-cradle accessory. The trackpad is not a mouse replacement as it is on PCs, just like the pen is not one either (as it has always been with PCs)
The pointer that’s being touted as so revolutionary... doesn’t seem that different. Okay, it snaps to UI elements. But fundamentally, it still works essentially the same way as any other pointer, right?
Indeed -- as far as I can tell the changes are not behavioral, only aesthetic.
That said, they do look really nice, and are (IMO) some of the best-looking hover effects I've seen in years, so kudos to Apple on that! Microsoft can't even seem to get its hover-effect strategy aligned within built-in Windows 10 apps...
I can see it being incredibly frustrating in actual use though. If it's anything like how the Apple TV's remote works, I expect it's going to screen record as looking very intuitive, but in practice it's going to be all about inertia and how to break out of the current selection.
I personally absolutely hate this feeling. Tactile feedback is useful for things like knowing if you've drilled into a stud or just drywall... not for moving a cursor around screen.
QUICK EDIT: It's the same reason we hate scroll jacking. Let me do my inputs as it feels natural, don't have the app dictate how I should motion.
I think Sidecar was the real admission that Microsoft was right, and it's more expensive and more limited than a detachable touch screen. If Apple made a Surface Book with macOS it would be superior to the iPad Pro in every way even if the software wasn't optimized for touch.
It’s giving a decent laptop a somewhat passable tablet mode (Surface) vs giving a great tablet a passable laptop mode (iPad). Personally I’m banking on the latter winning out.
I feel like iPads are beaten on both sides of the device size spectrum.
iPads got their lease on life because of the tiny screen sizes of the original iPhone line. Once iPhones got bigger, iPad sales growth flatlined, and for good reason. They're the worst of both worlds - too clumsy of an interface (I'd say even with this new trackpad bolted on) for real work, and not pocketable.
When I want to do something trivial and immediately, the phone with a big screen does it just fine. When I need to do real work, a tablet interface is a miserable experience, so I use a laptop with all the normal tools an engineer needs.
I picked up an iPad Mini 2 and used it for a good year, but once the plus-size iPhones came out it went into the drawer and never came out.
I think you summed it up perfectly. I was an early adopter, but the iPad never worked for me. I'm more likely to crave a MacBook Pro I could put in my pocket than a constrained oversized iPhone with a big screen and a keyboard.
I recognize that the security story is more challenging with a Real OS, but so is the power and potential. I don't like where this is heading.
iPads have found many niche uses, e.g. in retail, and for people on the road who use only a few apps (e.g. sales or health professionals)
iPads are also great educational tools where kids can interact with the device but don't have to contend with a full blown OS.
It's interesting also that the iPad is kinda growing up to be more of a full blown device for more content creation, since the hardware is clearly more than up to the task, the OS can be kept fairly simple and secure - clearly Apple are responding to what customers have been asking for, and what they're asking for is more iPad.
Outside of the "cult of Mac", people aren't really convinced on a $1000 laptop-ish device, on which apps are only allowed to run after passing an anal probe from the app store review team.
Which is why Apple stopped reporting unit sales on devices
I for one am grateful for the extra scrutiny iOS apps get. I resent that desktop apps can basically reach into any part of my computer, take 20 seconds to close when I tell them to exit, prevent my computer from shutting down, hog all my resources when I'm not using them, actively steal focus if they decide, fail to run because of some "missing dependency", and do a half-assed job uninstalling themselves.
This is standard fear-mongering from Apple fanboys. The truth is that consumers gravitate to lean, high-quality apps regardless of a review process - the market is the ultimate review.
I personally would not use any app that did what you described, and I don't see why anyone else would willingly use them.
It doesn't take an anal probe by Apple to push high quality apps to the top of consumer mindshare.
Also, let's for a moment assume Apple does give a flying f* for end-users. If they did, they wouldn't charge a $99 annual, per developer fee, and ban competitors (Steam, alternate payment methods, non Safari browser engines,...), retroactively revise app store policies, whimsically reject app submissions, purposefully cripple Safari's W3C compliance and force developers on to the app store, ....
Apple's review process is 95% rooted in monopolistic control, & 5% in what their PR/spin claims it to be
Tell you what: you seem to really resent the process so feel free to stop developing for the platform. There is a competing platform that has all the properties you espouse.
And there's even a natural experiment running on the Mac: there is an App Store like the iOS one and you can just download apps from the net. And guess what: users seem to prefer using the Mac App Store (which surprises me but, well, it's data).
Oh boy. Don't you think an actual, fair experiment would have to consist of two preinstalled app stores? "Apple taxed App Store" and "Free App Store", the former with $99 developer payments, a 30% tax and reviews, and the other a free-for-all (not using Apple's CDN, same sandboxing security model).
> There is a competing platform that has all the properties you espouse.
Thanks. This platitude was refreshingly insightful, and not obvious
> users seem to prefer using the Mac App Store.
Citation needed. Also, notarization is mandated by Apple, or the app isn't allowed to run. Guess what? The notarization certificate costs more than the Mac Store review (developer account).
Lastly, are you an Apple employee, or just a fanboy?
As an iPad Pro user, I don’t feel that it needs a trackpad. It needs better software (and better keyboard hardware — which is coming along with the trackpad, thankfully).
I want to be able to use it to type long-form essays and develop apps (it also needs an escape key!). I want a command line and full file system.
I think they are adding trackpad support not because the iPad inherently needs it, but because it helps their initiative of convergence between Mac and iPad apps [0].
Ah yes, life’s biggest questions. Do we have free will? Is there an objective reality? Why have a tablet instead of a highly portable touch screen laptop?
Instead of answering that, I will just say that I am only suggesting improvements on systems the iPad already has. I want better versions of existing hardware accessories and more liberal App Store policies to allow for fully-fledged development environments.
"Finally admits" sounds like clickbait to me. Apple likes to innovate. They often take a burn-the-boats approach. Eventually if customer preferences don't follow Apple's lead, Apple backpedals. Microsoft is pretty much the opposite. Then they meet somewhere in the middle. I've also seen this same pattern play out with iPhone and Android (big screens, for example.)
I am a commited Apple user but every time someone asks this I always think of the time he staged a whole press event to announce...an iPod dock. A product that probably sold 100 units (or the apple equivalent) and sank never to be seen again.
The lesson isn't that he's some sort of idiot, just that he had iterations and flubs just like anyone else; his hit percentage was simply a bit higher.
I owned a surface pro 3 and wanted to love it, but god, it was just awful. Short battery life, crappy eMMC-based storage, weird foldable keyboard you couldn't use on your lap, display that wasn't so bright, rarely if ever came out of suspend properly, the pen required two different kinds of battery (!?) and perhaps my personal favorite, the display sometimes rotated sideways and wouldn't de-rotate.
Pretty sure the iPad will have zero of these problems when it ships, and that makes all the difference, even if it's two years "late".
> Pretty sure the iPad will have zero of these problems when it ships, and that makes all the difference, even if it's two years "late".
i personally find that a bold statement. my iPad lasted a whole year as an apartment-only tablet before just outright dying, whereas i have the original surface, a surface pro 4, and a surface laptop that have been heavily used inside and outside and still work flawlessly. and before it died, the software issues on the iPad were endless. on top of that, my macbook pro is useless due to mac os x updates, a dead network card, and a few broken keys (that broke all on their own through normal use, no drops).
personal experience is what it is, but you shouldn't make sweeping statements based upon it.
anyway, i find windows 10 to be the superior os. i run fantastic windows apps and a linux os all from the same computer rather seamlessly.
While the Surface devices have been great explorations of 2-in-1 form factors (I have a Surface Pro and a Surface Book), they've also felt kind of pointless to me because none of them were really usable as tablets! Don't even get me started on the pen interface.
>anyway, i find windows 10 to be the superior os.
Why would you compare iOS to Windows 10?
The better comparison would be Mac OS X (Microsoft I noticed couldn't wait to get to 10, won't be long before they're calling it windows X I'm sure :))
I find Mac OS X to be the superior OS to Windows, since for yeeears I can run fantastic Mac apps and build and run fantastic Unix apps all on the same fantastic hardware.
The things that keep me from liking tablets are the software-enforced limitations that do not need to be there.
Why, for instance, do apps insist on controlling the size and layout of everything? There are so many times when a simple pinch-zoom, pane-resize or font-increase setting would make everything easier. It’s certainly possible to do, it’s just that software won’t allow it. That is a huge strike against productivity on tablets; I refuse to be fiddling away in the arbitrary regions of the screen that you have rationed for me, while you waste screen space on things like gigantic sidebars I rarely use.
Similarly, only the system gets to decide what “tasks” I may move between, or even see at once. That has never made sense, and decades of bouncing between overlapping windows with complete freedom should not have been thrown out so easily. Worse still, one is usually punished in some way for having the audacity to switch tasks at all! When you switch back, the app might have been killed. If by some miracle the app wasn’t killed, it’s certain to at least lose your focus, fail to save the last thing you typed, or enter any number of other unsatisfying half-states (none of which are “exactly where I left off 10 seconds ago”).
Anecdata, one of the devices I have been more happy with (for portability/usability/etc.) has been many, many years ago, the Compaq Concerto, i.e. basically a notebook with detachable keyboard and touch (with the specific pen only) screen.
45 comments
[ 2.8 ms ] story [ 86.1 ms ] threadThat said, they do look really nice, and are (IMO) some of the best-looking hover effects I've seen in years, so kudos to Apple on that! Microsoft can't even seem to get its hover-effect strategy aligned within built-in Windows 10 apps...
I personally absolutely hate this feeling. Tactile feedback is useful for things like knowing if you've drilled into a stud or just drywall... not for moving a cursor around screen.
QUICK EDIT: It's the same reason we hate scroll jacking. Let me do my inputs as it feels natural, don't have the app dictate how I should motion.
iPads got their lease on life because of the tiny screen sizes of the original iPhone line. Once iPhones got bigger, iPad sales growth flatlined, and for good reason. They're the worst of both worlds - too clumsy of an interface (I'd say even with this new trackpad bolted on) for real work, and not pocketable.
When I want to do something trivial and immediately, the phone with a big screen does it just fine. When I need to do real work, a tablet interface is a miserable experience, so I use a laptop with all the normal tools an engineer needs.
I picked up an iPad Mini 2 and used it for a good year, but once the plus-size iPhones came out it went into the drawer and never came out.
I recognize that the security story is more challenging with a Real OS, but so is the power and potential. I don't like where this is heading.
iPads are also great educational tools where kids can interact with the device but don't have to contend with a full blown OS.
It's interesting also that the iPad is kinda growing up to be more of a full blown device for more content creation, since the hardware is clearly more than up to the task, the OS can be kept fairly simple and secure - clearly Apple are responding to what customers have been asking for, and what they're asking for is more iPad.
I dont see how one is right or one is wrong. It is a different take. Although I much prefer iPad Pro.
Which is why Apple stopped reporting unit sales on devices
I personally would not use any app that did what you described, and I don't see why anyone else would willingly use them.
It doesn't take an anal probe by Apple to push high quality apps to the top of consumer mindshare.
Also, let's for a moment assume Apple does give a flying f* for end-users. If they did, they wouldn't charge a $99 annual, per developer fee, and ban competitors (Steam, alternate payment methods, non Safari browser engines,...), retroactively revise app store policies, whimsically reject app submissions, purposefully cripple Safari's W3C compliance and force developers on to the app store, ....
Apple's review process is 95% rooted in monopolistic control, & 5% in what their PR/spin claims it to be
And there's even a natural experiment running on the Mac: there is an App Store like the iOS one and you can just download apps from the net. And guess what: users seem to prefer using the Mac App Store (which surprises me but, well, it's data).
Do you know anyone who really enjoys it?
> There is a competing platform that has all the properties you espouse.
Thanks. This platitude was refreshingly insightful, and not obvious
> users seem to prefer using the Mac App Store.
Citation needed. Also, notarization is mandated by Apple, or the app isn't allowed to run. Guess what? The notarization certificate costs more than the Mac Store review (developer account).
Lastly, are you an Apple employee, or just a fanboy?
If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
However, app review isn’t a needed part of it, and I want to be the one in charge of the operating system, as I’m clearly not on iOS.
I want to be able to use it to type long-form essays and develop apps (it also needs an escape key!). I want a command line and full file system.
I think they are adding trackpad support not because the iPad inherently needs it, but because it helps their initiative of convergence between Mac and iPad apps [0].
[0] https://developer.apple.com/mac-catalyst/
Instead of answering that, I will just say that I am only suggesting improvements on systems the iPad already has. I want better versions of existing hardware accessories and more liberal App Store policies to allow for fully-fledged development environments.
The lesson isn't that he's some sort of idiot, just that he had iterations and flubs just like anyone else; his hit percentage was simply a bit higher.
I owned a surface pro 3 and wanted to love it, but god, it was just awful. Short battery life, crappy eMMC-based storage, weird foldable keyboard you couldn't use on your lap, display that wasn't so bright, rarely if ever came out of suspend properly, the pen required two different kinds of battery (!?) and perhaps my personal favorite, the display sometimes rotated sideways and wouldn't de-rotate.
Pretty sure the iPad will have zero of these problems when it ships, and that makes all the difference, even if it's two years "late".
i personally find that a bold statement. my iPad lasted a whole year as an apartment-only tablet before just outright dying, whereas i have the original surface, a surface pro 4, and a surface laptop that have been heavily used inside and outside and still work flawlessly. and before it died, the software issues on the iPad were endless. on top of that, my macbook pro is useless due to mac os x updates, a dead network card, and a few broken keys (that broke all on their own through normal use, no drops).
personal experience is what it is, but you shouldn't make sweeping statements based upon it.
anyway, i find windows 10 to be the superior os. i run fantastic windows apps and a linux os all from the same computer rather seamlessly.
The better comparison would be Mac OS X (Microsoft I noticed couldn't wait to get to 10, won't be long before they're calling it windows X I'm sure :))
I find Mac OS X to be the superior OS to Windows, since for yeeears I can run fantastic Mac apps and build and run fantastic Unix apps all on the same fantastic hardware.
Why, for instance, do apps insist on controlling the size and layout of everything? There are so many times when a simple pinch-zoom, pane-resize or font-increase setting would make everything easier. It’s certainly possible to do, it’s just that software won’t allow it. That is a huge strike against productivity on tablets; I refuse to be fiddling away in the arbitrary regions of the screen that you have rationed for me, while you waste screen space on things like gigantic sidebars I rarely use.
Similarly, only the system gets to decide what “tasks” I may move between, or even see at once. That has never made sense, and decades of bouncing between overlapping windows with complete freedom should not have been thrown out so easily. Worse still, one is usually punished in some way for having the audacity to switch tasks at all! When you switch back, the app might have been killed. If by some miracle the app wasn’t killed, it’s certain to at least lose your focus, fail to save the last thing you typed, or enter any number of other unsatisfying half-states (none of which are “exactly where I left off 10 seconds ago”).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compaq_Concerto
Some more pictures here:
https://www.ebay.it/itm/Vintage-Compaq-Concerto-2840A-Laptop...
The detachable keyboard made it very comfortable to use when on a table as you could place the screen further from the keyboard.