No they aren’t. Border closures are absolutely permitted and accepted under both EU and Schengen rules in emergencies; the current situation qualifies. It’s also absolutely asinine to compare emergency border closures with a very obvious and deliberate authoritarian move of this sort.
Interesting, I did not know that. I thought that it is allowed to implement border checks within Schengen, but not to close borders completely. Do you know where is that stated/regulated? Does it say for how long it can last?
Not sure. The article 25 is "General framework for the temporary reintroduction of border control at internal borders"
I cannot find where it says border can be closed. It says "border control" can be reintroduced.
There is a reference to 'public health' in Article 8 however:
> However, on a non-systematic basis, when carrying out minimum checks on persons enjoying the right of free movement under Union law, border guards may consult national and European databases in order to ensure that such persons do not represent a genuine, present and sufficiently serious threat to the internal security, public policy, international relations of the Member States or a threat to the public health.
> The consequences of such consultations shall not jeopardise the right of entry of persons enjoying the right of free movement under Union law into the territory of the Member State concerned as laid down in Directive 2004/38/EC.
But this says to consult "databases" not apply blanket ban. I am sure there is a law somewhere and our democratically elected EU governments fully follow it (except, maybe Hungary), but just wanted to double check...
In Germany, there was a protest last week. The only thing enforced by the police was a distance of 2m between protestors. There were also elections in Bavaria, if restricted to mail in. Free speech is alive and well.
In Hungary, you can now get jailed for "undermining the government's containment efforts", this includes speech. They dissolved parliament and suspended elections. That comes after destroying the best university of Hungary for being to liberal, destroying the free media, and starting a huge misinformation campaign with a fitting jewish kapparot.
It is all completely transparent, Hungary is not a democracy, it is a proto-fascist country in the heart of Europe, and this should not be tolerated.
"We have the same laws in Italy. I don't see the big deal."
Please don't spread misinformation, our current laws are completely different from what Orban is doing.
There indeed are over here some neo fascist leaders who are aiming at destroy our beloved country just like their precursors did nearly a century ago, though luckily they were booted out of the government last year. We're still safe, for now.
What Orban is doing is akin to what Hitler and Mussolini did back then, that is, obtaining full unlimited power through democratic means, then use the power to kill those means. That is, no more parliament (this is a common pattern when democracies transition into dictatorships).
Now the only way to have him step down is to ask him politely to do so, hoping not to get jailed in the process. If this seems democratic to you, then good luck when they'll do the same over here a few years from now.
I find it laughable that you talk about democracy, and then you praise "booting out of the government" elected politicians you don't like.
You're also misinformed about how the Italian Constitution says acts that limit freedoms should be passed which is—not how they're doing that—therefore Hitler.
We'll have to wait and see. Let's see if Orban gives back his unlimited powers (might very well not be the case, no idea), and if Italy gives back citizens their freedom. I know that even 20 years after 9/11, the Patriot Act is still in effect, and Americans were not given back the freedoms they took during the emergency.
"I find it laughable that you talk about democracy, and then you praise "booting out of the government" elected politicians you don't like."
Using democratic power to remove democracy isn't the purpose that democratic power was intended to; the best analogy I could find is a son killing his mother.
And... yes, I praised his removal because it was extremely clear what he was going to do. He asked people full powers less than one year ago.
I mentioned Hitler and Mussolini because what Salvini aims at doing is exactly the same: gaining control of the parliament through a mix of popular acclaim and underground extremist movements, then get full powers and kill any means of removing those powers. Fascism will return to Italy, it's just a matter of time. Incidentally, in 2022 it will be 100 years from the 1922 march on Rome, when Mussolini gained full power, so it might be a convenient (not so) casual coincidence.
> I mentioned Hitler and Mussolini because what Salvini aims at doing is exactly the same: gaining control of the parliament through a mix of popular acclaim and underground extremist movements, then get full powers and kill any means of removing those powers.
Do you have anything that could even remotely give credit to that, or is that like saying he's a reptilian from Mars who will kill us all?
You're just making stuff up to justify the rest of what you're saying. He called for an election because the M5S lost like 90% of support compared to the beginning, he didn't attempt a coup like you're implying.
What's really using democratic power to remove democracy is the EU—which isn't democratic by design—and is and has been trying to strip power from sovereign nations. In part thanks to people like you, who look for Hitler everywhere but where you should actually look.
Anyway, everyone is entitled to think whatever. I should move on to more productive things, anyway.
I don't know about the Italian laws, but one of the main criticisms of the Hungarian ones is that they lack an end date. the laws passed in Germany and the Nordic countries (I don't know the Italian laws, sorry), for example, often carry a time limit.
The Hungarian situation is judged by the light of the increasingly authoritarian Orban. From the outside it looks like yet another opportunity for him to pass laws that gives him more power at the expense of civil rights. Last time I checked, the state of emergency during the 2015 immigration wave was still in place, even though hardly anyone tries to go to or through Hungary, regardless of what Orban says. judging Hungarian political climate, I wouldn't be surprised if it is still in place.
Historically, when laws get passed in case of emergency we don't go back how it used to be if it's good for politicians. Hope we don't get quarantined for life, though!
Poland has always been one of the least appreciative countries in the EU. They profit massively yet constantly vote for right wing parties with strong anti-EU sentiments.
This has been a thing in the last five years only. Prior to PiS all governments have been both appreciative and enthusiastic about the EU. Please don’t tar all Poles with the PiS brush.
They saw what happened in other EU countries where guilt-ridden citizens don't have any respect for their own county anymore, and were not looking to repeat their mistakes.
The vast majority of immigrants are economic migrants that have no right to ask for political asylum, and were let in by left-wing government who—contrary to popular belief—are now hand-in-hand with big companies rather than looking out for workers, and kept letting them in just to keep salaries low and make their masters happy.
Back when I was a kid in Italy I used to pick grapes for something like 15/h, now there are Africans that do it for 4/h and are literally treated like slaves. Very sad.
Unfortunately (for the EU) they just got our country back, and they're not looking to give it up anytime soon. I hope that they can get as much money as possible and then leave this nightmare once they're in good shape.
Not bad, uh? I wish Italy had the same courage. Unfortunately even in the middle of a crisis like this one our spineless PM goes to the EU begging Germany for peanuts.
To deal with the coronavirus crisis, Orban is being granted vastly greater powers than any other EU leader. I can think of no reason for this than he wants to turn Hungary into a full dictatorship. That is certainly the direction he has been heading, in a step-wise fashion, for many years.
Countries rarely move from democracy to dictatorship in one quick step. It is a generally a process over a number of years, and in recent years Orban has moved several large steps in that direction, but has not gotten there yet. With this new action it looks like his feels like he can complete the process.
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[ 3.3 ms ] story [ 79.7 ms ] threadPlease don’t spread misinformation.
I cannot find where it says border can be closed. It says "border control" can be reintroduced.
There is a reference to 'public health' in Article 8 however:
> However, on a non-systematic basis, when carrying out minimum checks on persons enjoying the right of free movement under Union law, border guards may consult national and European databases in order to ensure that such persons do not represent a genuine, present and sufficiently serious threat to the internal security, public policy, international relations of the Member States or a threat to the public health.
> The consequences of such consultations shall not jeopardise the right of entry of persons enjoying the right of free movement under Union law into the territory of the Member State concerned as laid down in Directive 2004/38/EC.
But this says to consult "databases" not apply blanket ban. I am sure there is a law somewhere and our democratically elected EU governments fully follow it (except, maybe Hungary), but just wanted to double check...
In Hungary, you can now get jailed for "undermining the government's containment efforts", this includes speech. They dissolved parliament and suspended elections. That comes after destroying the best university of Hungary for being to liberal, destroying the free media, and starting a huge misinformation campaign with a fitting jewish kapparot.
It is all completely transparent, Hungary is not a democracy, it is a proto-fascist country in the heart of Europe, and this should not be tolerated.
Hungary just gets bad press—along with Poland—because they're not on board with your/Germany's agenda.
Sorry!
Please don't spread misinformation, our current laws are completely different from what Orban is doing. There indeed are over here some neo fascist leaders who are aiming at destroy our beloved country just like their precursors did nearly a century ago, though luckily they were booted out of the government last year. We're still safe, for now.
What Orban is doing is akin to what Hitler and Mussolini did back then, that is, obtaining full unlimited power through democratic means, then use the power to kill those means. That is, no more parliament (this is a common pattern when democracies transition into dictatorships). Now the only way to have him step down is to ask him politely to do so, hoping not to get jailed in the process. If this seems democratic to you, then good luck when they'll do the same over here a few years from now.
You're also misinformed about how the Italian Constitution says acts that limit freedoms should be passed which is—not how they're doing that—therefore Hitler.
We'll have to wait and see. Let's see if Orban gives back his unlimited powers (might very well not be the case, no idea), and if Italy gives back citizens their freedom. I know that even 20 years after 9/11, the Patriot Act is still in effect, and Americans were not given back the freedoms they took during the emergency.
Using democratic power to remove democracy isn't the purpose that democratic power was intended to; the best analogy I could find is a son killing his mother. And... yes, I praised his removal because it was extremely clear what he was going to do. He asked people full powers less than one year ago.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-11/beach-boy...
He is also friends with Orban and other not-so-nice presidents around the globe.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/03/31/coronavirus-...
https://www.ansa.it/english/news/2020/03/30/coronavirus-salv...
I mentioned Hitler and Mussolini because what Salvini aims at doing is exactly the same: gaining control of the parliament through a mix of popular acclaim and underground extremist movements, then get full powers and kill any means of removing those powers. Fascism will return to Italy, it's just a matter of time. Incidentally, in 2022 it will be 100 years from the 1922 march on Rome, when Mussolini gained full power, so it might be a convenient (not so) casual coincidence.
https://www.britannica.com/event/March-on-Rome
Do you have anything that could even remotely give credit to that, or is that like saying he's a reptilian from Mars who will kill us all?
You're just making stuff up to justify the rest of what you're saying. He called for an election because the M5S lost like 90% of support compared to the beginning, he didn't attempt a coup like you're implying.
What's really using democratic power to remove democracy is the EU—which isn't democratic by design—and is and has been trying to strip power from sovereign nations. In part thanks to people like you, who look for Hitler everywhere but where you should actually look.
Anyway, everyone is entitled to think whatever. I should move on to more productive things, anyway.
I thought that HN was for civil discussion..?
Where is Dang when you need him.
The Hungarian situation is judged by the light of the increasingly authoritarian Orban. From the outside it looks like yet another opportunity for him to pass laws that gives him more power at the expense of civil rights. Last time I checked, the state of emergency during the 2015 immigration wave was still in place, even though hardly anyone tries to go to or through Hungary, regardless of what Orban says. judging Hungarian political climate, I wouldn't be surprised if it is still in place.
Historically, when laws get passed in case of emergency we don't go back how it used to be if it's good for politicians. Hope we don't get quarantined for life, though!
We'll have to wait and see.
I live in Poland and I'm waiting for Poland to milk the EU as long as they can, then leave when the economy is on par with Germany.
Same goes for Hungary.
The vast majority of immigrants are economic migrants that have no right to ask for political asylum, and were let in by left-wing government who—contrary to popular belief—are now hand-in-hand with big companies rather than looking out for workers, and kept letting them in just to keep salaries low and make their masters happy.
Back when I was a kid in Italy I used to pick grapes for something like 15/h, now there are Africans that do it for 4/h and are literally treated like slaves. Very sad.
Unfortunately (for the EU) they just got our country back, and they're not looking to give it up anytime soon. I hope that they can get as much money as possible and then leave this nightmare once they're in good shape.
Not bad, uh? I wish Italy had the same courage. Unfortunately even in the middle of a crisis like this one our spineless PM goes to the EU begging Germany for peanuts.