While I agree with you, I'll play devils advocate: The information in the documents is so bad, the damage it would cause would be worse than 9/11 itself.
What other logical reason is there for keeping it secret for this long?
Okay, damage to whom? The American people or individuals with compromised interests? I am unconvinced it's not the latter and that's a shame akin to the reality that we have to find of squaring with that it took a comedian pleading with tears in his eyes to convince Congress to do the right thing and even authorize funds for first responder's families.
Next question: More damaging than 9/11? Does that preclude the loss of life the morning of? To say nothing of the lives lost during the resulting military actions and regional fallout?
Let me end this by asking this: does this of all things really need a devil's advocate? The devil seems to be doing just fine pro se.
If peace and diplomacy are the goals, conducting it in the dark terrifies me as to what steps the interested parties aim to use in 'getting there' or the questionable trades and concessions they make outside of the spotlight.
I mean let’s turn this on its head: if peace and diplomacy are the goals, what do they have to hide? That’s a pretty universal outcome that I can’t imagine many people having a problem pursuing.
Can we stop treating the devil like an indigent defendant now and look this diseased horse square in the mouth? This is kabooky-simulacra-governance disguised as security policy.
It doesn't, but if it is uncovered that it isn't, people will have to ask their politicians why they keep spending billions on Saudis is there is no terrible secret reason to do so.
The Saudis no longer control enough oil to explain it.
But maybe it's all connected to Epstein, or rather to the group that he ostensibly headed. That would account for the links to both Israel and Saudi Arabia. And there's the possibly that they're blackmailing many senior politicians from the US and who knows how many other countries.[0]
Basically yes, USA has went to absolutely unexplainable, completely bizarre extent to shield Saudis from the fallout, and even took out their biggest enemy in the region for them.
A document rendering multiple US administrations complete insert expletive will be deeply detrimental to political careers of many political clans on the hill.
But that's what OP is asking/saying right? If the information was made public it would mean that heads would role (proably even prosecutions) but the nation would be just fine (other than that lots of people might have to get to terms that their government has been lying to them for decades).
If there’s any damaging or damning info, the people should hear it and decide how to respond. If the truth has been told to us already, then nothing could be that much more damaging. If we were deceived from the beginning, then that has already resulted in massive amounts of damage.
The only people who would lose are those within political organizations.
I apply a bit of hyperbole here, but I'm convinced that "national security" is a monotonic function that will eventually encompass everything in the federal government.
And a large part of it to cover up embarrassing details.
I think it was in the discussions related to one of the embassy cables that I found this concept of 3rd order facts that leads to things being classified. It goes something like this. Say US is supporting some brutal dictator somewhere. The fact that he is evil is the main fact (1st order). People in that country and all over the world know it. That's the 2nd order. However the knowledge that the US govt knows (3rd) order is classified. The reasoning is because then the US govt might have to explain its inaction in regard to all the brutalities inflicting by that ruler.
> And a large part of it to cover up embarrassing details.
Yes, but it is more than that. Way more.
Chinese ask me why in the world did Americans threw themselves on Saudis when they attacked them.
Chinese don't understand that. They cannot comprehend it at all. It breaks their mind. Chinese there think there must be some completely bizarre, terrible secret that is the reason for that.
I give them one popular explanation:
Imagine, some serious guy in the suit comes to completely shocked people after 9.11 and tells there is a "completely bizarre, terrible secret" behind this mess, and "this is why you trust me on this, and we must go help Saudis with Saddam."
Then years pass, US is in its 10th year of Iraq war. Everybody has since forgot Saudis, and can't care more why this has started when they have to finish this war at all costs. The guy serious guy in the suit keeps shouting "This is all Saddam who did all this! I have a proof, but is a state secret, just trust me!"
Imagine now somebody coming out and telling everybody: "there was no terrible secret" to begin with, and you had no reason to listen to that serious guy in the suit for all that 19 years long war.
The other possible explanation is that it implicates high-ranking Saudi officials, which would make it politically problematic to maintain the existing diplomatic and security relationship. For example, while under seal it can't be used to civilly sue those officials, and it permits the DoJ to avoid prosecutions it might be politically forced to pursue. Such civil and criminal suits would disrupt the existing state of affairs. By keeping the secrets you keep closed the pandora's box of political pain, even though anyone who cares already knows what's in the box.
People outside the government have read the files. As the article says, lawyers for plaintiffs in the ongoing civil suit saga have seen them, as presumably would the judge. If the documents detailed criminal activity on the part of the U.S. government we'd have heard something about it by now.
I'll be run out of town on a rail for this due to the Alex Jones association but what about the dancing Israelis? The limited amount of government documents released do genuinely seem to point to Israeli Mossad having some fore-knowledge of the attack.
Yes, they were tailing the Saudis through the US. That was reported by Salon, within days after the attacks. But maybe they were helping the NSA and FBI. And perhaps someone made the call that it wasn't important enough to risk blowing some other operation.
Over a 100+ Israel's were deported after 9/11, including the dancing Israelis. This news report, that came out shortly after 9/11, covered it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnWSNI7rKf0
Haven't seen any reporting on it since.
The other other possible explanation is that it would expose US intelligence-gathering methods and capabilities. US governments have been really sensitive about such things. It's not just one administration, either. Going clear back to World War II, they prosecuted a reporter for exposing that the US had broken Japanese codes. (I think in connection with Midway, maybe?) Fortunately, the Japanese didn't wake up from the exposure.
Yes over Midway. No they did not prosecute anyone over the codes. The attorney general wished to prosecute the publisher, Robert McCormick, but the Pentagon made it clear that this would confirm to the Japanese that the US did have the codes: letting it ride mean that the Japanese might take the story for idle brag.
"But the administration insisted in court filings that even its justification for that secrecy needed to remain secret. Four statements to the court by FBI and Justice Department officials were filed under seal so they could not be seen by the public. An additional five, including one from the CIA, were shared only with the judge and cannot be read even by the plaintiffs’ lawyers."
If we assume that Al-Qaeda was behind the attack, it's hard to imagine how high-ranking Saudis weren't involved. Given what we know about Saudi funding of Al-Qaeda.
Also, given what we know about CIA funding of Al-Qaeda, it's not a huge stretch to suspect US involvement. Or at least, a bungled entrapment or outright rogue operation.
It's hard to guess what US allies might be involved. Israel is a popular guess. Especially given its oddly close relationship with the Saudis, and its entanglement with US intelligence agencies. And then there's the fact that Mossad agents were trailing the Saudi terrorists for some time before the attacks.
But then, it could literally be anyone. And the Israelis and Saudis might have been framed.
Oh, that's right. It's 2020 and the Internet has no shortage of ideological idiots and information saboteurs. Talk about a thorny problem for a board like this.
I have no problem with the statement. But as a HackerNews comment it is far too reductionist. At the very least, in my opinion, it should have been accompanied by at least mentioning supporting information if not actual citations.
Josh Marshall and his team at TalkingPointsMemo have been doing a fantastic job for these past four years documenting Trump's AG turnstile that finally landed him the cover-up artist Barr, whose lawyering for government criminals goes back to the Reagan administration. And that man is good at what he does, for he has no shame; it's team-first and damn the Constitution.
And at some point, it no longer became reductionist to call Nixon a criminal. His AG ended up doing 19 months, and that was nothing compared to what these mofos are doing.
Also, h/t to Marcy Wheeler at emptywheel.net for her fine reporting on the transgressions of the Trump administration.
Barr actually got his start even before the Reagan admin. In the 70s he helped the CIA fight the various measures that came out of the Church Commission to impose some measure of accountability on the intelligence community.
For a reason or another, Saudi Arabia means a lot to the Trump admin and generally speaking, to all US administrations. Someone was chopped up and ...you know the story.
So everyone in our admins closed both eyes and their three ears when the Saudis did this and that, because the Saudis are smart enough to be useful to us in very, very important things. So we protect them from small stuff, and maybe the Saudis buy this protection with concessions to us in certain things
51 comments
[ 2.1 ms ] story [ 57.8 ms ] threadZero accountability. It’s disgusting.
Yes. Downvote this. For calling out the issue of accountability for what it is on this topic: disgusting.
I dare someone to defend it convincingly. Please someone defend this.
What other logical reason is there for keeping it secret for this long?
Next question: More damaging than 9/11? Does that preclude the loss of life the morning of? To say nothing of the lives lost during the resulting military actions and regional fallout?
Let me end this by asking this: does this of all things really need a devil's advocate? The devil seems to be doing just fine pro se.
I mean let’s turn this on its head: if peace and diplomacy are the goals, what do they have to hide? That’s a pretty universal outcome that I can’t imagine many people having a problem pursuing.
Can we stop treating the devil like an indigent defendant now and look this diseased horse square in the mouth? This is kabooky-simulacra-governance disguised as security policy.
But maybe it's all connected to Epstein, or rather to the group that he ostensibly headed. That would account for the links to both Israel and Saudi Arabia. And there's the possibly that they're blackmailing many senior politicians from the US and who knows how many other countries.[0]
0) https://medium.com/@dylanhoward/russia-israel-and-saudi-arab...
https://s.france24.com/media/display/aa00e3a4-0eb0-11e9-818f...
Basically yes, USA has went to absolutely unexplainable, completely bizarre extent to shield Saudis from the fallout, and even took out their biggest enemy in the region for them.
A document rendering multiple US administrations complete insert expletive will be deeply detrimental to political careers of many political clans on the hill.
The only people who would lose are those within political organizations.
I think it was in the discussions related to one of the embassy cables that I found this concept of 3rd order facts that leads to things being classified. It goes something like this. Say US is supporting some brutal dictator somewhere. The fact that he is evil is the main fact (1st order). People in that country and all over the world know it. That's the 2nd order. However the knowledge that the US govt knows (3rd) order is classified. The reasoning is because then the US govt might have to explain its inaction in regard to all the brutalities inflicting by that ruler.
Yes, but it is more than that. Way more.
Chinese ask me why in the world did Americans threw themselves on Saudis when they attacked them.
Chinese don't understand that. They cannot comprehend it at all. It breaks their mind. Chinese there think there must be some completely bizarre, terrible secret that is the reason for that.
I give them one popular explanation:
Imagine, some serious guy in the suit comes to completely shocked people after 9.11 and tells there is a "completely bizarre, terrible secret" behind this mess, and "this is why you trust me on this, and we must go help Saudis with Saddam."
Then years pass, US is in its 10th year of Iraq war. Everybody has since forgot Saudis, and can't care more why this has started when they have to finish this war at all costs. The guy serious guy in the suit keeps shouting "This is all Saddam who did all this! I have a proof, but is a state secret, just trust me!"
Imagine now somebody coming out and telling everybody: "there was no terrible secret" to begin with, and you had no reason to listen to that serious guy in the suit for all that 19 years long war.
Those two excuses are the all purpose, catch all ones that work every time.
Any information relevant to national security (such as names, etc.) could easily be redacted.
People outside the government have read the files. As the article says, lawyers for plaintiffs in the ongoing civil suit saga have seen them, as presumably would the judge. If the documents detailed criminal activity on the part of the U.S. government we'd have heard something about it by now.
Also, given what we know about CIA funding of Al-Qaeda, it's not a huge stretch to suspect US involvement. Or at least, a bungled entrapment or outright rogue operation.
It's hard to guess what US allies might be involved. Israel is a popular guess. Especially given its oddly close relationship with the Saudis, and its entanglement with US intelligence agencies. And then there's the fact that Mossad agents were trailing the Saudi terrorists for some time before the attacks.
But then, it could literally be anyone. And the Israelis and Saudis might have been framed.
It is established fact.
Oh, that's right. It's 2020 and the Internet has no shortage of ideological idiots and information saboteurs. Talk about a thorny problem for a board like this.
And at some point, it no longer became reductionist to call Nixon a criminal. His AG ended up doing 19 months, and that was nothing compared to what these mofos are doing.
Also, h/t to Marcy Wheeler at emptywheel.net for her fine reporting on the transgressions of the Trump administration.
So everyone in our admins closed both eyes and their three ears when the Saudis did this and that, because the Saudis are smart enough to be useful to us in very, very important things. So we protect them from small stuff, and maybe the Saudis buy this protection with concessions to us in certain things
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2018/oct/18/donald-tru... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/08/world/middleeast/saudi-mb... https://theintercept.com/2018/03/21/jared-kushner-saudi-crow... https://washingtonpress.com/2018/04/08/jared-kushner-just-go...
https://www.heraldtribune.com/news/20190827/judge-rules-fbi-...
edit-to-add:
Case No.: 1:03-md-01570
In Re: Terrorist Attacks on September 11, 2001
Can't find free access to Barr's recent memo filed.
Just found three PDFs with the title "Case 1:03-md-01570-GBD-FM".[0,1,2]
[0] https://www.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/4caseyorderja...
[1] https://www.law.upenn.edu/live/files/5886-30462015-09-29opin...
[2] https://www.scribd.com/document/101651118/Judge-Orders-6B-in...
You can find docket information that shows when documents were filed but all the ones I see make you pay to see the documents.
Doc No.: 6142 "DECLARATION of Attorney General William P. Barr in Support re: [6136] MOTION for Protective Order. Document filed by FBI."