Ask HN: How do I overcome mental laziness?
I have realized that I easily give up when I face a hard problem. This is hurting my career prospects. I have been thinking and it may have become an issue because I grew up in a high pressure environment, where a lot is expected from you. How do I change myself ? I have observed that a lot of times I have a vague idea of a problem I am trying to solve but I don't put in the effort to nail it down. This affects my confidence and I don't want to lead whenever I get an opportunity. How do I get out of this habit ?
271 comments
[ 3.0 ms ] story [ 262 ms ] threadFor others, sometimes the best strategy is "embrace the suck": do it even though you're likely to fail. Keep repeating until you don't.
Having a good well rounded education or library of random facts helps you dig into problems because it gives you perspective. Learning should be a lifelong process.
Finally, physical health is very important. If you're not working out, start a regular, manageable, cardiovascular exercise routine. There's many benefits to this, better sleep, better focus, and confidence building.
To build on this thread, I think it's important to feel what is happening when you procrastinate. What is it like in your body when you think about your task. Is it because you think you are going to fail? Because the task involves interpersonal conflict? Is it because you just don't want to do it (not interesting).
If you can start w/ your body + emotions, you'll get a felt sense of what is standing in the way. From there you can start to ask the question "why", is there a reason that those types of emotions happen when faced with this type of task?
As someone with ADHD, anticipatory anxiety has stopped me in my tracks countless times. I try to use this method to be aware there is anxiety, the feelings, and the story I'm telling around that anxiety. For me the anxiety is often a way of not starting, and if I don't start I can't mess up. In recognizing that, I can be a little bit more supportive of myself and be more willing to try.
* write down the smallest next possible step towards this goal. It should be something you're very close to knowing how to do already. It doesn't matter if it leaves you still a long away from the ultimate goal.
* set a short timer (e.g. 20 minutes) and work on it until the timer goes off.
* reward yourself with something fun.
* repeat.
I have a video discussing using this technique with Agile Scrum. As a developer, we can borrow ideas from other disciplines! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCPTc79oVg8
Then take a break.
Then try for 2 minutes.
Then take a break.
Repeat until you can focus for a long time :)
The ability to "deep focus" on problems while sitting at desk for 8 hours isn't what evolution optimized for, but it's what you need to succeed today. Not everyone can make that transition easily, and it's not wrong to get help if you can't.
There are a lot of very successful people on ADHD meds, who would not be successful without it. It's not all abuse. I would be the last person on earth to default to medication for a young child, but if you're an adult and unhappy with your ability to mentally commit to problem-solving, there's no reason you shouldn't think about this seriously.
- Remove your options. If possible, turn off your WiFi, router and phone. If I don't have an easy way to distract myself, it's easier for me to get "into the zone", and for my brain to really engage.
- Convince yourself to spend 5 minutes taking a stab at the problem. If you need to, set a timer. You can do anything for 5 minutes. And once you're 5 minutes in, the problem won't feel so massive
- Start writing down what needs to be done. Make a list, and then start making the list more granular by breaking the "big tasks" into "small tasks". Big tasks are frightening. Small tasks are easy to do one at a time.
- Put yourself in a new environment. If you procrastinate at home, take yourself out to a coffeeshop, or library where you can work. If you have a big enough house, have a "work room" and a "play room", and don't mix the two. Commit to not getting distracted in the work room.
- Surround yourself people you want to emulate -- here, productive people. If you're in uni, this is easy. If you're not, try to find discord channels, IRC channels, or whatever. It's always easier to be motivated when you're surrounded by other motivated people.
None of this is magic, and I don't want to pretend to be a paragon of efficiency (I'm on HN right now, after all). But the key is really to try SOMETHING new, if you aren't happy with your mental stamina -- and keep changing variables until you are.
Check out Carol Dweck's research. Here's an early article: [https://www.nytimes.com/1998/07/14/science/praise-children-f...]. Note that there are some criticisms of her work, and like many other studies in psychology, reproducibility is an issue. However, I found this quite useful in diagnosing my own thinking patterns towards effort.
Cut down the number of tasks you're working on at once. If you think about it there's probably some that don't need to be done. Personal projects that you'll never see through can be dropped. Narrow down the most important and focus on them. Throwing something away isn't failure, it's a decision to prioritize.
It's an ongoing process which requires practice.
With focus you can practice finishing things, starting small. Finishing tasks feels good and leads to more things being finished.
If you feel lost or are having difficulty taking next steps it's probably a sign that you need to break up a task into smaller pieces. Try picking one small part you can do now and finish that.
Tangentially, you might also be interested in "Time Management for System Administrators" by Limoncelli. It's got a lot of good info about getting things done (in any domain).
You're implying that praise for intelligence makes people lazy. But if they weren't lazy, then they would likely be praised for effort - it's at least as plausible the causality goes the other way.
Claimed evidence makes me think of the regression to the mean paradox/fallacy, where people predictably do worse after praise and better after criticism.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22901962
Even if you don't want to seek professional treatment, you could look up articles on solving problems and achieving goals written specifically for people with ADHD and see if those help.
I'd describe it as "a disability of knowing how to do something, but not actually doing it unless there are external consequences involved"
ADHD is of course not just motivation but a spectrum of symptoms. I'd highly recommend listening to Dr. Russell Barkley talk about ADHD on this playlist - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg6cfsnmqyg&list=PLzBixSjmbc...
Watch from 1B onwards and see if you feel like it describes you
To be pedantic, apathy is lack of emotion and interest.
Often that is not the case in ADHD. The hallmark of that syndrome is the inability to follow through/self-regulate behavior/plan actions to achieve the objective they are interested in.
I of course have moments when I feel lazy and just don't want to do anything, but then there are the other moments when I want to do something, work on a project, practice a hobby but just don't. There is this disconnect, it's hard to explain
Best to look at other key ADHD symptoms as well like emotional regulation, rejection sensitve dysphoria, focus, (mental) hyperactivity (= your brain can't just chill), the need to constantly do something, impulsiveness (like with money), etc etc etc.
It's of course a spectrum and some people are worse in x while other people suffer more on y.
Best to talk to a doc if it affects your life. Could be ADHD, could be something else. It's very common though so admitting that there might be a problem is the first step to getting better
But everything I've read about ADHD doesn't sound like a me at all.
Never heard of your way of describing it though.
Adhd feels like knowing how to do something and knowing you should do it, but not actually doing it. It’s like your inner drive is very weak unless there is an external consequence involved, like a deadline.
Dumb examples are
- your homework unless the deadline comes closer
- a amazon box that you know the contents of but currently don’t need it, so it stays packaged standing around until you need the item or the space
- dishes
- a todo list item that’s floating around for weeks that takes minutes to complete but has no deadline
Then at other moments something just grabs your attention and it becomes the most important thing right now even if you should be doing something else. Like finding a new tool or programming language that you really want to use immediately, or randomly cleaning your entrance area NOW even though you should be leaving for the train to make a meeting.
Yes, that would be me. I know what I need to do in so many ways. But doing it? If it isn't a habit or some form of negative emotion forces me to do it, almost impossible. There are, of course, exceptions. But in general, absolutely.
Homework
Yes, same with tasks / Jira stories today.
Amazon box
There is a printer inside a box in my living room that I need to print a work related document. It's now there for like 8 days? My office wrote me, that they need that document and boy don't I care about it, as it is merely a formality. So yes, total check.
Dishes
See, this is why I'm not completely convinced ADHD matches me. I never leave dishes behind. When I'm done cooking, even before I take the first bite, the kitchen is in perfect condition. Vacuuming my room on the other hand...
Todo lists
I need them to be productive, but my personal todo list tends to remain on my whiteboard for weeks or months until I do everything possible in one rush. I guess that is also a match?
Your last paragraph sounds like doing things compulsively, things that aren't important right now. That is also a no match for me. I get hyper focused from time to time, although that has gotten quit rare in recent years. But I've never not went to a meeting or something similar because of it. If I need to do something, if I start to feel negative about it, I'll get it done no matter what. I'd feel quite awkward not getting to meetings, so that doesn't happen. Maybe this is still a match?
Edit:
On the other hand, I should complete a Jira story right now. But now I'm here and listening to a ADD related talk from another comment. But I really should work on that story to finish it. But I kind of have an open deadline. But it gets steadily more embarrassing that I haven't finished it. Uh oh.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/attention-deficit-hyperactivit... has a list of symptoms in adults.
> But everything I've read about ADHD doesn't sound like a me at all.
If the symptoms listed there don't match, you probably don't have a ADHD, I guess.
- Keeping still? As a kid, I had always a problem keeping my leg still.
- Excessive talking? Nope, I was the quite kid. Also never interrupted anyone and still don't.
- Acting without thinking? The polar opposite. I didn't act because of all the thinking. That problem remains to this very day.
- Not caring about details? Painfully correct, why did I end up as SWE where details are all that matters?
- Appearing forgetful? 100%. I can't remember most of my childhood and have a bad memory in general. But I never misplace things. Can't remember work stuff if I don't write it down. Onenote saves me daily.
- Listening to instructions? Well, I'm very good at listening to people in bilateral situations. But during meetings? My mind goes places. And reading docs and instructions is almost impossible. Even if I can force myself to go through everything, I still miss details!
- Difficulty organizing? Absolutely, although I get it done if I'm forced to do it. But I hate it.
- Short attention span? Well, depends on the situation. In gaming, I can stay focused all day long. I can read a book for hours. No problem staying focused doing physical activities (sport). Staying focused on coding is really difficult and I constantly zone out.
- Taking risks? Ha, no. I don't take risks, at all. It's actually a problem.
- Impatience? Yes and no, depending on the situation. But I'm mostly quite patient. Maybe because I'm in my head most of the time?
- Mood swings? Not at all. At least not within one day. But during the week? There a bad days and good days.
- Not completing tasks? Not really, I tend to finish what I've started, if it is manageable, can be done in one go. But complex tasks, that may not be well defined? Personal hell.
- Inability to deal with stress? I'm a Jedi. I don't get stressed easily and if the situation becomes stressful, I get more focused. But I need a lot of downtime to keep my sanity.
That I went through these lists in a not so orderly fashion is also not the best sign, isn't it?
> - Short attention span? Well, depends on the situation. In gaming, I can stay focused all day long. I can read a book for hours. No problem staying focused doing physical activities (sport). Staying focused on coding is really difficult and I constantly zone out.
Sounds like the flip side: hyperfocus. See eg https://www.healthline.com/health/adhd/adhd-symptoms-hyperfo... Direct quote:
> Hyperfocus is the experience of deep and intense concentration in some people with ADHD. ADHD is not necessarily a deficit of attention, but rather a problem with regulating one’s attention span to desired tasks. So, while mundane tasks may be difficult to focus on, others may be completely absorbing. An individual with ADHD who may not be able to complete homework assignments or work projects may instead be able to focus for hours on video games, sports, or reading.
The good side about the common ADHD medications (various stimulants) is that they mostly help within half an hour, if they help at all.
So apart from the hassle of getting a diagnosis and prescription, at least you won't have to endure months of side effects before you know whether you can get any better.
(I'm contrasting that with eg anti-depressants here.)
Well, it seemed to work. Maybe placebo, but I'd say that I had high concentration burst in 30-45 minutes intervals (after inhaling). I kind of forgot that I've taken it a couple of minutes in, because I was so focused on the code. I heard that Nicotin works as neuroenhancer in general, so nothing is proven. But no matter why, it seemed to help.
I really don't want to get addicted to Nicotin, so I'll see how I can find a doctor to verify/falsify this.
Thanks again!
Kinda like Bukowski "don't try" ?
ps: to explain more, there were times where
a) I was slowly but surely inspired by a topic and would just keep wondering and thinking about it, 'hard' or not, it was similar to walking a mental park
b) I was motivated by desires (greatness, potential financial gains, social status, some faith that the outcome would make me feel happy) but now my feelings about them have changed so it feels pointless. I feel a lot better when doing things that have no real goal but actually procure a lightweight joy.
For instance, I used to equate more study to more possibilities and capacity to 1) create more (joy) 2) get a good job. But my experience was that these efforts weren't useful in reality. Even though I got some FP moocs, solved problems alone, I'm still stuck too often, and recruiters don't give a damn. It all erodes your happiness/ROI center.
In your specific case you may want to read up on something called "learned helplessness". Essentially you are being conditioned by failure to quit prematurely.
That is different from ADHD. ADHD in itself is really a diagnosis of exclusion, where no clear cause can be found.
Funny how my conclusions today are the opposite. I didn't quit early enough somehow. Well it's hard to tell, tbh, I've spent years learning hard stuff without any real benefit. So many a different course of action would make sense :)
If your laundry lists of symptoms (depression, sleep disorders, lack of motivation etc) get better from stimulants, count yourself lucky. Stimulants work right away, if they work at all, and have few and relatively mild side-effects.
Some of the side-effects, like weight loss, are even seen as welcome by many people. Others like having to pee more often and cold hands are relatively easy to deal with.
For comparison, antidepressants take months to show even mild positive effects; and have major side-effects.
The kernel of motivation may exist, but an ADHD victim would fail to follow through on that motivation, to their own detriment.
Either due to lack of concentration, lack of planning, or lack of execution. Often all of the above.
It is a general dysexecutive syndrome that that may impact all higher order cognitive functions.
Motivation, on the other hand can also be impaired by depression (aka "learned helplessness" - which is not uncommon in ADHD), but that would not be ADHD in itself.
Expecting technical/intellectual problems to be easy to solve is something that is drilled into most people by the school system, which rarely if ever present problems that take more than a few minutes to solve, and pretty much never expect students to try tackling problems that require weeks of effort.
The result is that when many people encounter a hard problem, if they can’t make progress after spending a bit of effort on it, they give up and conclude that either the problem is too hard or they are too stupid to keep going.
There is probably an influence from inherent personality differences, but I would speculate that building up stamina for tackling hard problems comes down substantially to practice.
At least 3-4 people with ADHD have already spotted the potential, and I expect that more will while the question is up. You're right that it doesn't have to be ADHD, but I don't really see the value in dismissing it either.
Edit:
> There is probably an influence from inherent personality differences, but I would speculate that building up stamina for tackling hard problems comes down substantially to practice.
For those of us who do have a chemical imbalance, many of us have coping mechanisms which look a lot like building up this stamina. But it's important to understand that this can come very unnaturally for some people and be considerably more difficult and unstable.
I was diagnosed with ADHD my senior year of college. Before that, the mindset you're advocating got close to breaking me.
Maybe you can elaborate about what “mindset” you were thinking of, and why it came close to breaking you? I suspect you were misunderstanding my intended message, and that the “mindset” you are imagining is pretty far from my own set of beliefs.
Note that before I was not advocating anything; only stating an observation that most people don’t get much practice tackling hard problems, and that people with or without ADHD can have difficulty tackling hard problems. Do you think that is inaccurate? It seems pretty uncontroversial to me. I know a lot of people who have difficulty with hard problems, and some of them definitely don’t have ADHD.
* * *
I am taking care of a 3.5 year old full time, so I’ll give you some relevant examples from that context:
If I try to read a book aloud which is much too hard for him (say a novel pitched at teenagers), he gets bored and wanders away. But his attention span, vocabulary, grammar, etc. are gradually improving, so the books he understands now (e.g. Pippi Longstocking, The Cricket in Times Square) are much more sophisticated than the books he could understand a year ago (e.g. Henry and Mudge, Frog and Toad), which are in turn much more sophisticated than the books he was interested in a year before that (e.g. Go Dog Go, The Very Hungry Caterpillar).
If we try to work on some 1-player logic puzzle games, the ones that say “age 7+” on the box are currently too difficult for him and he gets bored/frustrated and wants to do something else. The ones that say “age 5+” are pretty good, and he can do them with some external help. The ones that say “age 3+” are getting to be easy by now, and he can do them independently.
If we go out to practice balancing on a vehicle, a 2-wheeled scooter is now getting to be okay if we go carefully, but 6 months ago it was too difficult and therefore very frustrating. A year ago, he was just starting to figure out the (pedal-free) balance bike, and now he can zoom around on it. If I tried to get him to ride a skateboard I predict he would fall off and not want to try (heck, that’s probably what I would do if I tried to ride a skateboard).
One of my son’s friends has no experience with a balance bike, and is embarrassed to try in front of anyone, because my son (who has more than a year of practice) can zoom all around, whereas any kid just starting finds it to be a great challenge. But the same kid can swing across the monkey bars, something my son cannot, because that’s something that boy has practiced for a few months.
* * *
Activities like writing computer programs, playing music, writing essays, playing sports, cooking, etc. are similar: they require many challenging skills which must be slowly built up over the course of years of practice, and are very daunting for someone who is unprepared. The way to get better at these is to start at your current level and practice, in a playful and low-pressure environment, slowly improving until you can handle high-level challenges.
And the same is true of meta skills which apply to many domains like searching and reading academic literature in a field you are unfamiliar with, coming up with a few choices of high-level problem solving strategies and then picking one to apply, breaking the problem solving process down into smaller manageable chunks until you get down to a chunk small enough to just dive in, taking organized notes, trying many small examples when you don’t yet have a solid conceptual understanding, finding and tackling a simpler related problem i...
What would you say if they were bored / distracted by everything you read to them, not just the difficult things?
I haven’t spent an appreciable amount of time with a kid who is always completely uninterested in stories of any kind. But I can speculatively imagine a variety of possible causes for that: other distracting stimuli, malnutrition, exposure to toxins, disease, congenital brain abnormality, emotional abuse, ...
Do you have some particular kid in mind?
Or if this is an analogy to problem solving: if someone literally can’t manage to attempt any kind of problem no matter how trivial, then “easily give up when I face a hard problem” would not be an accurate description of the situation.
This constant push for a 3.5 year old to read books that clearly require more mental effort than is okay for his/her age, play 'logic' games that he/she can get no joy from are a huge red parenting flag. You might have good intentions but your relentless need for him to raise up to these arbitrary standards of yours that have been created without any regards for his/her happiness are going to put so much unsustainable pressure on the kid.
By forcing your kid to play with the games he can not understand or reading the books he doesn't like, you are just stealing his/her childhood. I can only hope that you realize this sooner than later.
> pushy parent
This is funny. Other parents at the playground (back when playgrounds were open) are constantly telling me how unusually non-pushy I am (sometimes critically, sometimes admiringly). Example: “I’m glad to have you as a reference for how laid back a parent can be with kids still doing okay, so I won’t feel so bad when my immigrant inlaws give me trouble for being too lax with my kids.”
I admit I have been pushier than I would like recently when it comes to the kid running down the hallway at 1 AM (which causes complaints from the neighbors downstairs), shoving or hitting his 1-year-old brother (which makes me more anxious than it probably should), or wanting to dump yet another bunch of toys on a floor already covered by the previous two bunches of toys.
> books that clearly require more mental effort than is okay for his/her age
What are you talking about? We read those stories which the kid enjoys (sometimes over and over, at his insistence), and stop reading those which he does not.
If he finds the content of a book to be too over his head, too boring, too scary, ... then we set the book aside. (For example, recently William Steig’s Dominic was too scary, and St. Exupéry’s The Little Prince was too abstract.) We might try to return to those in a year when his tastes and abilities have changed, but at that point might decide to leave them aside for another year.
He is the one who most wants to spend a lot of time reading together. I just indulge that desire because I enjoy it too.
Why do you think listening to chapter books as a 3-year-old requires a “more than okay” level of mental effort?
> play 'logic' games that he/she can get no joy from
Huh? I bought a bunch of logic games because I personally enjoyed the first two I tried, for myself. Some of them are targeted at age 3+; others say age 8+ (and are enjoyable for adults). But those numbers are at least somewhat arbitrary, based on the age at which it would be appropriate to hand a not-otherwise-prepared child the puzzle with minimal additional direction/support, and leave them to figure it out for themselves.
The 3.5 year old really likes playing the puzzle games! They are fun and interesting. Some he likes to do mostly by himself. Some he likes to help me with. If the challenges get frustrating, we set those aside and do something else instead.
I promise you that we are not doing any puzzles which “he can not understand” or which he “can get no joy from”.
> relentless need for him to raise up to these arbitrary standards
There is no relentless need for anything, and no standard, arbitrary or otherwise. We just introduce a wide variety of tools, materials, and activities, and let him engage with them at his own pace.
> stealing his/her childhood
What do you consider to be a “not stolen” childhood? Parents leaving their kids entirely to their own devices and not engaging when the kids want to do things together? Parents leaving their kids in front of animated TV or iPad games for hours per day? Parents leaving kids with only a few toys/materials because they don’t want them to gain experience with a broad variety too fast? Whatever happens to be on offer from the nearest preschool?
Recently the 3.5 year old spends at least half of his time playing independently with whatever toys he feels like – his younger brother takes a lot of adult attention too – and unfortunately (due to Covid-19 shelter in place) we are stuck inside away from other people instead of visiting the playground for a few hours or walking around the neighborhood chatting with all of the nearby retail/restaurant staff, as we used to do before lockdown times.
It’s frustrating that we can’t get together with other kids of the same age too much right now. (I’m sure things are even harder for older kids; 3-year-olds are just starti...
Fifteen years later, I am still stably medicated, and life is what I had always wanted it to be: productive and fulfilling. I hope anyone reading this does not let a stigma of medication bar them from talking to somebody about it if they've faced years of frustration over not being able to do what others seem to do easily: just getting shit done.
which recommends to work on problems slightly higher than your capability
I don't know the OP but this seems a bit like telling someone that "everyone feels tired sometimes" when they might have undiagnosed chronic fatigue syndrome.
If you told a new parent, an alcoholic, or someone living on a toxic waste dump that everyone who is frequently tired probably has CFS, that would be equally irresponsible.
I also had sleep issues, but never bad enough to seek help for them. Fortunately, the ADHD meds fixed the sleep issues, too.
Have you tried taking some L-Tryptophan in the evening? For some people it works wonders for sleep and mood. L-Tryptophan is an essential amino acid that you can buy over-the-counter. Your body needs it to make melatonin and serotonin amongst other things.
I haven't tried L-Tryptophan! But I'll give it a go. My medication hasn't really started taking effect yet but hopefully I don't have to take sleeping medication once it does. Thanks for the suggestion. :) Hopefully that helps also.
As someone who has ADHD and has taken stimulant medications for a long time, I would like to share my experience. There is a very faustian aspect of taking these medications. Don't think that you can change your brain chemistry and not change who you are.
I would not have the career I have today without it. Before I started getting treated, I was barely supporting myself financially, and struggling to get through community college. I felt so powerless, while my peers rocketed ahead of me. After I started taking medication, I was able to take control of my life, and do things I had previously ruled out doing. I did great academically, and then made more money than I ever thought I would. It was such an amazing feeling to feel like I had been given a second chance at life.
However, it changed me, and I lost something. I wonder what could have been. I remember the moment I noticed I was changed. For a year before I started taking it, I had been dating someone for over a year, and not once had we ever had a fight. But a month after I started taking adderall, I screamed at her when I got frustrated because she changed plans we had made. I was so horrified, and I wanted to stop taking it that day, when I still could. Our relationship didn't last three more months. I gradually lost touch with my old friends.
I was only supposed to take it to get through college, but the choices I made on adderall were such that I chose a lifestyle that required it. I pushed myself really hard for years and I was able to prove that I wasn't a slacker or stupid; I got a fancy .edu email and coauthored scholarly papers and presented at conferences.
I miss who I was before I started taking it. Things just didn't annoy me. I was so cool with stuff. I think I was much more emotionally resilient, and much better able to read people. Stimulant medications make me more "autistic", for lack of a better word. I think I have really regressed emotionally.
I would strongly advise anyone who starts taking these medications to not lose touch with yourself. See a therapist, even if it does not seem necessary. Try to maintain relationships and keep yourself emotionally anchored. Give your soul room to breathe. Take emotional sabbaticals where you are able to ruminate on important decisions. Consider not taking your meds on the weekends. Listen to music and play video games, even if they don't seem to entertain you as much. I have a theory that your "right brain" still likes these things, but that your impulses for entertainment are just suppressed.
As for me, I am seriously considering trying to live without these medications, or at least severely cut them back. Besides the problems that I talked about, there is also evidence that stimulant medications can reduce brain mass over the decades. I don't want to discourage anyone from doing the best for themselves, but everything has a cost. If you want to do well in college and build your career in your 20s, that is understandable. But keep yourself grounded.
I tried a few medications. When I as on Vyvanse, I noticed similar personality changes as what you described. Most notably, my sense of humour suffered. (And before on dexamphetamine, I was really grumpy when it wore off. So I did get into fights.)
Things got better after I changed to methylphenidate. For me, it's milder in the side effects.
Modafinil and nicotine patches also work reasonably well with only mild side effects. (See https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine about nicotine. Please don't start smoking.)
Caffeine never worked at all for me. Just messed with my sleep. L-Tryptophan seems to help me very slightly, but I have friends who report great effects, especially with sleep and mood.
Enough ranting, my point is: you can try different stimulants to see if there's anything else that works better for you.
Finding the minimal dose that still works is of course still a good idea.
I just know that I don't want to be taking adderall when I'm 40.
Though I also heard from some other people for whom Ritalin has intolerable side effects, but Adderall works.
Honestly for me, if methylphenidate wasn't available, I'd go with nicotine patches and perhaps modafinil instead of dexamphetamine.
Thanks to billions of smokers we a have pretty good idea of the long term effects of nicotine. Eg we know that it protects against parkinsons. (And there are some indications that Parkinsons and ADHD are linked.)
So the diagnosis process was mostly answering lots of questions and filling out some questionnaires.
However, it is heavily streamlined. My university medical center and on campus pharmacy had me in and out with a week supply of adderall in about two hours. There were weekly followups for about four weeks, then monthly followups every three months, and then it was just five mins with a psychiatrist for minor adjustments thereafter. After graduation, most psychiatrists will do monthly followups over the phone, and may only require you to come in a few times a year.
I have however heard it can be much harder if they suspect that you are unstable or "drug seeking". But if you don't appear to be a risk, and you can clearly explain your situation, then they will usually offer you a week supply and you report if it helps you. I think a big factor is just what your life situation is.
Private psychiatrists are much more likely to help you. Make an appointment with an "ADHD specialist". As long as you don't have any red flags, they are likely to give you a test prescription"
I'm not sure about my current provider, but the place that diagnosed me would let patients complete evaluations at a slower pace if they couldn't afford everything right away.
Also, before I switched to a specialist after moving, I tried asking my GP for my RX and they went straight to "pill seeking", however, they would still allow me to get my script if I came in every month for a drug test.
I have been pretty healthy my whole life, exercise regularly and eat a healthy diet, never had any allergy nor anything alike... until I took (ar)modafinil. After 2-3 weeks of occasional consumption (1 pill every 2/3 days) I started with a mouth full of ulcers (aphthae), which progressed to a full-body rash. Apparently I had Erythema multiforme major, one of the potential side-effects of Modafinil, and honestly it was worrying.
For me personally (YMMV!!!), I was recently diagnosed with ADHD and was offered stimulant medication for it. I first tried Adderall, which did in fact work, but after a while it made me quite moody and depressed and miserable. I later switched to Concerta and I'm doing quite a bit better.
That said, definitely don't feel pressured to stay on and medication that isn't helping you, or that you feel is hurting you. It's ultimately your choice what you put in your body.
Nicotine is a safe stimulant that available over the counter; and works really well against ADHD and can help normal people too. Arguably much better than caffeine for the vast majority of people.
See https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine for details.
One thing to keep in mind: stay away from smoking. That's vile and addictive.
I never smoked or tried e-cigarettes, though. Smoking is awfully addictive.
I tried half a nicotine gum once. But the stimulant hit was too much at once and made me nauseous for about half an hour. (Similar to eg the effects of way too much espresso, but with much shorter duration.)
Did you ever smoke burnt tobacco?
What was the process of quitting e-cigarettes (and the others you mention) like?
Don’t let your brain try to trick you out of it.
Play video games that require intense focus for prolonged durations to perform well like Starcraft 2, CSGO, DOTA 2 helped me build mental endurance.
Reduce social media. I’ve found that this was the most productive. Social media was fragmenting my attention by making me anxious and addicted. After I reduced Reddit and Facebook usage, my mental discipline increased drastically.
Keep a journal. I’ve found verbalizing my thoughts in a simple and concise manner is hard and requires a lot of focused thinking.
Aerobic exercise helps; more circulation for your brain means it can work better
I’ve been dealing with the same problem too so I’ve been finding ways to engage myself.
If the game is challenging for you, it will likely help.
Check out neuroscience books if you want to be deep in this stuff.
The theory is controversial. The effect likely isn't too big, or it would be harder to design experiments where it doesn't show up at all.
But even assuming the theory is correct, playing video games wouldn't be considered beneficial, at least as long as you are enjoying it.
This should be somewhat obvious: if you enjoy doing something you are obviously not training your capability to do something that you don't enjoy.
The closest you can get to have license to indulge is that Baumeister would predict not playing video games (when you would like to do so) will deplete your willpower, and make it harder to resist other urges (such as not working) for that day. Over the longer term (several weeks) however, repeatedly resisting that urge to play would train your willpower.
I find games that require lots of exploring, solving puzzles helps improve my focus. In most FPS games, this only works if you strategize your approach in gaming. E.g considering the next X moves ahead, scoping vantage points etc.
Also, when I just need to clear my head, I personally find that there's nothing like games (besides exercise).
Fun anecdote, when I met my SO, she was in incredibly into exercise and I was not. But I was very much into games. We ended up influencing each other. Now we game & exercise together..
I think overall it's a net positive if done in moderation.
- StarCraft tries to keep your win rate at 50%, so a lot of the time you will find yourself frustrated.
- DotA games can be really long, and some people get really upset.
Now, I recommend you write down how you feel before playing these games, and how you feel after. And try to see if it helps.
Do you feel ready to study or work on a side project for 6 hours? I doubt so. You will probably feel ready for another match, and another, and another.
Don't do that. These games are exactly the core of my own mental laziness.
Plus you'll probably improve, I rose a few ranks after starting to do this.
I don’t really care much about winning or losing. I play them because they’re fun and because I can try novel approaches to solve novel problems.
The reward for me has never been about winning. It’s about being able to trying new things and see how it works in the game.
If I win great, if I don’t I’ll try again or play something else. If the reward is winning for you and you’re average than you’re statistically likely to be sad ~50% of the time. That probably will sap your motivation.
Funny enough, I spent a few weeks binging on a somewhat realistic civil war sim called "Ultimate General: Civil War" which I think teaches (civil war era) military tactics and military history quite effectively. I now know all of the famous civil war battles pretty well.
I used to be better than average at Starcraft 2. Probably peaked around top ~1.5% in the world wide rankings.
My thoughts on this is that the vast, VAST majority of people who play a competitive game like Starcraft 2 will not get any benefit from it. Following this advice blindly would be a disaster for 99% of people.
As a former high ranking master league player, I would mostly dedicate my time to memorizing and mindlessly practicing build orders. All responses I made in the game to my opponent were born from literally thousands of hours of practice and memorizing how certain interactions in the games went. 1 Marauder beats 1 Stalker. 2 Marauders beats 3 Stalkers. 2 Marauders loses to 4 Stalkers. For every single game interaction possible. I doubt an actual full formed thought ever crossed my mind during gameplay.
That's great for just zoning out and crushing noobs, but as a top 1.5% player I was absolutely TERRIBLE when compared to even low ranking professional players.
Why? Because they spent time watching replays to understand their opponents and to meticulously analyze their mistakes and think about solutions.
I didn't do any of that. I just memorized popular strategies and got good enough at pressing certain keys in certain orders that I was considered a "master". But I didn't master anything really. What does that say about the 98% of players who were lower ranked than me? What does that say about the larger player pool of Starcraft 2 which don't even compete, but rather play single player or arcade?
I want to make a critical correction to the quote that prompted me to reply.
> Practicing video games that require intense focus for prolonged durations to perform well like Starcraft 2, CSGO, DOTA 2 helped me build mental endurance.
The point I want to drive home is that concentrated, deliberate practice is the key to building mental fortitude.
Making decisions and living with the outcome, letting things go and showing NPCs and other players what you built (especially if the community is supportive) - these skills are very transferable.
Go for a walk. Don't face the problem head on specifically, just absorb the gist of the problem and then go for a walk and let your sub conscious deal with it, then about half way through your walk, start talking out loud about it. This works well for me when I'm stuck on something.
Learn what real problem solving is. Look up the Wikipedia article on Troubleshooting, it's fantastic and has some great insights.
The main thing about problem solving is not to be overwhelmed by the entire problem. Break it down into its most basic forms, and then solve a part of it, then work toward the solution. Don't try to build all of the solution at once. Iterate toward it. It works.
HTH YMMV.
What's the difference?
> When I do hit that "zone" I can stay in it for hours, but I rarely get to that point on any single problem.
Maybe you're already aware, but that's very common with ADHD.
I would seriously encourage you to consider an evaluation for ADHD, if you have not already. Easily giving up when confronted with challenges is a classic ADHD behavior, and it's often described and perceived as laziness. Having greater success under higher pressure is a classic trait as well.
I'm (obviously) not qualified to diagnose you, but I recognized something of myself in your description of the difficulties you're facing (so much so that the first thing I did before typing was find-in-page for ADHD just to see what had already been discussed).
It's possible the tendency to retreat from challenges is part of a feedback loop. You mention that your confidence suffers. This is more likely to discourage you from facing future challenges. Each challenge feels a little more out of reach, and each consequence increases the pressure.
One thing that a lot of undiagnosed adults don't know is that ADHD can present like as anxiety and depression. It can also look like fear and apathy. It's hard to spot, because we're accustomed to childhood symptoms, which are often a lot more disruptive.
If it helps encourage you to consult with your doctor (if you haven't already): a little over a year ago I was diagnosed. I've been adjusting treatment over that time, and it's still not perfect, but in that time I went from an anxious falling apart mess grateful to have a job at all, to taking on leadership of a team. (Obviously, a great deal of other things have improved along with that, but I'm trying to stay relevant to the question.) Side effects of my particular med (currently vyvanse) are non-existent, I'm just gradually working up to a dose that works for me. Even times of greater stress don't discourage me (though they can require more recovery time, but... that's normal?). There's been literally no downside.
Like I said, I'm in no way offering a diagnosis, but I would seriously encourage seeing someone who can. And if you're going that route, I'd also encourage doing some reading on how ADHD affects/presents in adults. The DSM is... well, entirely geared toward childhood diagnosis, and your doctor may rely on that.
When you do settle on a task that you want to complete, don't urinate- just wait- hold it for longer than is comfortable. Kinda weird and personal, but urgency is a mental burden to overcome. Every task is more difficult to focus on when you've got to take a whizz.
* youtube/netflix
* social media
* news
* sugar
* video games
These are the things your brain goes towards automatically as an easier "win" than in facing the harder problem. Cutting them out will leave room for you to face harder challenges.
This completely changes my perspectives as to why I get up from my desk to go grab a snack, look at my phone, etc. Thank you
I just ask because its the standard response along with sleep and exercise, and I cant help wonder if it "works" because people without real underlying issues get some marginal benefit, or if it actually works for people with issues.
As for the other stuff, if I cut those out I get miserable and more easily bored. Better to use them as carrots; "if I do 45 minutes of coding I can play 1 game of Rocket League."
In my experience this is temporary. It takes about 1-2 weeks for my brain to adjust to the "new normal" of not playing video games or binging youtube. These 1-2 weeks are quite boring, but after that I am able to find things I would normally be bored by interesting. It's as if there is a "boredness set point", and once you cut out the most stimulating activities, less stimulating things like coding or reading will become more interesting to you.
That said, I like video games and youtube videos, so I often go for a middle-ground approach like you.
Work time is for work, and after work I can game. If I need a break during work I'd rather just read hackernews for a bit. Less addictive :P
For example, on a ketogenic diet (no sugar and limited carbs) your brain produces ketones and many people report far less lethargy.
Sugar helps in the short-term, but if you get past the keto-flu, you no longer become glycogen dependent. Long-term ketogenic diets are now finally being studied, with many people reporting tremendous success.
Psychiatrists love giving you sugar and drugs though. Any drugs, any sugar!
In that case maybe your are more suited to chaotic endeavor where you can thrive in the unexpected while other drown into it.
Let's say you get a new job, are you at your best at the beginning where everything is new or have you better energy when things are settled and in theirs place ?
A cool job I heard was technology assessment for corporation that want to buy another compagnie, you look into the technology to see if it actually does what it say, what is the amount of tech debt, etc. You make a report and then you move on to the next.
I came up with a fundamentally "agile" solution: break the problems down into smaller tasks until the first task is too small to offer resistance.
E.g. rather than "write architecture specification", start with "outline the heads for architecture spec" and then maybe "draw rough sketch of architecture on paper" and then maybe "write introduction".
Almost everything in my to do list these days can be executed in under 10 minutes. As a bonus, it gives you the dopamine hit / satisfaction of watching a stead stream of items moving from 'todo' to 'done' state on a daily basis.
“When problems overwhelm us, and sadness smothers us, where do we find the will and the courage to continue?
Well, the answer may come in the caring voice of a friend, a chance encounter with a book, or from a personal faith. For Janet help came from her faith, but it also came from a squirrel. Shortly after her divorce, Janet lost her father, then she lost her job. She had mounting money problems.
But Janet not only survived, she worked her way out of despondency and now she says, life is good again. How could this happen?
She told me that late one Autumn day when she was at her lowest she watched a squirrel storing up nuts for the winter, one at a time he would take them to the nest.
And she thought, if that squirrel can take care of himself with the harsh winter coming along, then so can I. Once I broke my problems into small pieces I was able to carry them, just like those acorns, one at a time.”
— “Little Acorns” by The White Stripes
A therapist colleague used a different metaphor.
Patient: "I'm overwhelmed by (task) and can't get going."
Therapist "Do you know how to eat an elephant?"
Patient: "Uh... No?"
Therapist: "One bite at a time."
For example, get up early every day, get ready and go directly to an area where the only thing you do is work on your tasks and you force yourself to accomplish at least a task while you are there. It's amazing how your point of view changes once you don't have to think about what you will do next and when you will do it.
“Eighty percent of success is showing up,” is absolutely true. Especially, if you don't have to think about it.
It's been a whole new world since then.
Really great stuff
Like "Open IDE and two terminals and point terminals to correct branch".
First, I enjoy the process - moleskin + favorite pen. Second, my brain started to think about the task. Third, I starting to get into flow state". Usually I jot down like a dozen of those steps or so and I'm pretty deep in the flow by then.
A computer is a great tool for documenting important things that I need to keep, but for scheduling my day I just use a notebook. I can browse through them for a couple of days but most pages will not be needed in a few weeks from now.
The important stuff that comes from this I do digitize with a tool like draw.io. Which I hate to use actually, it's not user-friendly to me, but it's what we use at work.
That's pure genius!
Surely holds true for me.
This is because our usual ways of procrastinating give us instant gratification with very little effort, so they raise the bar for real work that gets us there with much more effort, often for less tangible gratification.
Video games are particular bad in this regard (and I've played many 1000s of hours).