Ask HN: I'm an unemployed programmer in SF that will work for minimum wage
B.S. Computer Science
Have used java, python, flex, html5 canvas, javascript, and css on various webapp projects
No 'real' job experience
Unemployed for 6 years trying to do a startup (yes 2005, when I just graduated and read my first PG essay)
Will work for minimum wage, or free if the work is interesting and may lead to a job
Will do any work, even if not programming related
Will accept any length term: internship, contract, contract to hire, full time, etc
Hey HN. After 6 years of trying to do a startup with no success, I'm close to giving up. I've been rejected from ycombinator (twice), various startup conferences (launch, etc), and even angellist. I have no connections to investors and have had no success trying to get introductions.
I've recently tried to apply for programming jobs in SF, but had trouble because of my complete lack of work experience. All my software engineer friends in SF are making $100k+ and telling me how hot the market is. I can't even get a minimum wage job flipping burgers at In N Out or bagging groceries at safeway because they have dozens of applications for each opening and my long period of unemployment looks bad.
Is there any possibility for me to make a fresh start? Will anyone take a chance on hiring me? Do you have any advice for me?
Your comments are appreciated!
edit: added email contact in HN profile
edit2: for all those asking for code samples, I implemented the reddit is hiring backend challenge in python (http://www.reddit.com/r/blog/comments/fjgit/reddit_is_doubling_the_size_of_its_programming/). they said not to release the code publicly until after march, but if you send me an email I can show you privately.
140 comments
[ 3.2 ms ] story [ 198 ms ] threadOh, and if you've worked on anything open-source, or you have any code you can open, make sure you put it up on GitHub so you can show it off. Code talks and bullshit walks, as they say.
Your post is a good bet, so I upvoted it.
EDIT: I checked your profile. You dont have contact info. A job cant find you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AOL_Community_Leader_Program
In February 2010, the United States for the Southern District of New York gave preliminary approval to a settlement between AOL and the Community Leaders totaling 15 million dollars. Final approval was granted in May 2010.
(Good luck to the OP, I know that situation can be rough)
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/03/business/03intern.html
If not, then find some way to survive for a couple months and build some simple projects. Like, really simple. Hell, just setup some wordpress sites with good-looking themes from Woothemes or Themeforest. Having 2 or 3 of those will satisfy 95% of people looking for really simple code-monkey work on CL. You won't get rich, but you can build up your list of clients in 6 months. Then you can either keep freelancing or roll that into a fulltime job ("I've been doing contract work for the last year...here are some example projects and client references.")
"Can you write code and actually get things done? Do you have examples of your work that look good?"
If the answer's yes, freelancing is now just one of many options available to you.
If you were working on a startup, then you were "self-employed", not "unemployed". Market yourself as such. And as others have already mentioned -- if you can't point at jobs held, then point at code/projects that you wrote. Some startups would rather look at your GitHub profile than a CV.
I'm starting a company 4/2 after my last day of full-time work on 4/1, and while I wasn't planning on hiring anyone right away, I do have a fair bit more work that needs doing than I can personally do, so I will be hiring contractors for some of it and if you're a fit, would consider hiring you remotely, assuming your skills matched up and you could handle working remotely (not everyone can).
I suspect you'll find a better offer on HN anyway, but if not, reach out to me with some details mid-month,
A four-year degree is a solid leg in for a lot of backwards HR departments (isn't it? everybody telling me to finish mine seems to think so), so I'm surprised you're having difficulty. A bachelor's should at least get you into support somewhere, and you can start there. This makes me think that everybody who can operate a command line has descended upon San Francisco for the startup culture, and there's a saturation there. That wouldn't surprise me at all.
Last time I was there it was to visit my sister and do nothing computer-related, so I might be wrong.
I bet it started off like this:
"We're using memcached. Ever heard of it?"
A: "Yes. I've heard about it" [but never use it]
"Ok, since we used it for internet scale, the standard memcached isn't good enough for us. So tell me, how would you improve memcached for internet scale?"
A: "Umm..."
Real story.
[The answer is to switch memcached from TCP to UDP implementation, but then you need to know first how memcached work internally and probably intimately]
The problem is that most of these companies ask specific questions regarding the weird libraries or esoteric programming languages that they specifically use to solve a very specific problems.
Might as well go and hire the contributors of those libraries/languages really.
If I was conducting the interview, I'd be thrilled to hear that kind of response given the candidate's self-admitted lack of domain expertise.
It was a painful process for me. I'm sure it was even more painful for my boss. After a couple of months, I reached a point where I didn't really need help deciphering statistics.
A few months later, I read through the code of a co-worker who had been there much longer. I noticed some deficiencies in a statistical search method. When I asked my boss why my co-worker implemented all his models using such a poor technique, he told me, "Because he doesn't come into my office and say he has no idea what he's doing."
I love it when an engineer, junior or senior, wanders over and asks a question about something deep or complicated. We can write math or pseudocode on the whiteboard. Even just drawing ``network'' diagrams of things talking to other things helps get me through the day.[2] It's especially rewarding when the lightbulb goes on.
I'm willing to be late to meetings with executives, skip lunch, or stay late at night for these sessions. Don't assume your boss found it painful at all. It's quite likely the best part of his day.
I had the advantage of the same sort of boss at my first real job. In retrospect, he was remarkably patient with me, showing me how to _learn_ the craft of developing software. I had previously been a hack, and he gave me enough knowledge to build my own skillset extremely quickly. (Secret weapons are always handy.)
[1] I went into management because I have an authority problem. Principally, a problem when I perceive ill-informed or untalented authority figures making poor choices that affect me. After a year or two in management, when I learned enough about operations, finance, marketing, etc., I came to the realization that I'm now just in the middle of a pyramid of the same problem. However, I stay because I have priced myself out of the programmer market. I now use the extra money to bootstrap a startup with a friend and save the rest away from the "emergency/retirement" fund so I can burn longer when I do jump ship.
[2] I am not unaware that this is vain and probably more of a status issue than altruism. ``I've still got it,'' and all that.
Also, I was in a special situation. I had a strong passion for the work I was doing, knew my boss before I got hired, and had done related research that showed I was able to push my way through challenging problems.
[1] http://www.nashcoding.com/2010/07/07/evolutionary-algorithms...
For the inverse of the mean zero, variance 1 Gaussian distribution, look in the old NBS AMS-55 math handbook. They have two nice, simple formulas that are plenty good as approximations; one formula is a little more accurate than the other.
For getting samles from a multivariate Gaussian, that is the second lecture!
And if you're not talking about just the bay area specifically, you're definitely off base.
Also, FOSS is a big deal. Got spare time? Do FOSS, more FOSS, more FOSS. From my personal and anecdotal experience, after your first job it's gonna be so much easier, if you manage to deliver and make some connections, and participating in open-source projects will make you a better programmer and hopefully help you land a job.
It's just not worth my time to try to sort through the people who claim skills that don't actually have them, particularly for contract work that is short-term. I might be willing to go through a long interview process for a full-time employee that I expect to invest significant time and money in, but for contracts? It's just not worth my time. I can look at someone's github, SF.net, CPAN modules, Drupal modules, etc. and know within minutes if they're worth working with. Why would I bother with someone that doesn't have anything to show?
A) If you haven't already, pick up "What color is your parachute?".
B) Work on your resume. It shouldn't say 'unemployed for 6 years'. Mine did not say "unemployed for about 2 decades". Mine listed my education and I told employers that I was a "homemaker and homeschooling mom going through a divorce".
C) Whatever your buggaboo, stop harping on it. Mine was my health. I talked incessantly about my health crisis because I felt I needed to be "up front" and because it was uppermost in my mind...yadda yadda. The very first interview where I did not mention my health issue was the job I got.
I applied to a large company and got a phone call "According to your resume, you qualify for the following three jobs: blah blah morning shift, blah blah evening shift, blah blah evening shift." I knew I was too sick to work morning shift. I replied 'Put me down for the two evening shift jobs.'. I went in for additional testing. Afterwards, I was told "You still qualify for both jobs. Which would you like?" I said "I have no clue what either of these jobs really entails. I've been a homemaker forever..." and we chatted a bit about it. I think a contributing factor to the decision was one of them started two weeks earlier than the other, and that was what I went with.
I still have that job. I feel underemployed and so forth. But it has allowed me to keep a roof over my head, work on my health issues, get through my divorce and start my life over. In the aggregate: It's all good.
Good luck with this.
So it is unlikely that a traditional publisher will ever publish my life's story -- unless I get famous for something else first and publishers begin coming to me. I have found that it really doesn't work to try to 'sell' myself. When I go to them, people just think I'm full of crap and trying too hard. It works far better for me to wait for other people to discover me.
At work, I remain in that same entry level job -- a job that some folks have gotten right out of high school at the age of 18. (I have about 5 or 6 years of college, some of it the equivalent of graduate level work and lots of people hired after me have been promoted.) There are people in the department I work in that know I am bright. And I have submitted suggestions, proposals, etc. It goes nowhere, in spite of sometimes being initially met with enthusiasm. No one seems able to believe that some loser who can't get promoted out of an entry level job could possibly have meaningful solutions to systemic departmental problems (which is generally the scale I think on). And recently when someone did take a proposal of mine seriously, the implementation ended up bearing no real resemblance to what I was trying to accomplish. It ended up repeating the same systemic sins I was trying to redress. I take this as a hint that corporate America and me don't really mix that well. I'm disgusted and if I came into enough money say, this week/month, I think I would promptly quit my job and begin walking across the US. (Edit: The job I have seems to have a high-ish wash-out rate and I have kept it while recovering from being very ill. So I don't feel like a personal failure. I just feel like I have no real future at the company -- at least not one commensurate with my abilities.)
Which is to say "It's not like I haven't tried to go the traditional/conventional route." But it doesn't work for me. Most likely, I will need to go off and do something on my own. Winning over an audience single-handedly will probably be less challenging than winning over The Powers that Be in some existing bureaucracy (whether at a publishing house or at my place of employment).
But thanks for the feedback. I do appreciate it. :)
ITs usually not worth the effort though. Start saving up and quit.
Having something recent - anything - on your resume is a big improvement on having nothing; having something "cool" that you enjoy talking about is better still. So I'd try that - think about your hobby interests and cast a really wide net to find things you wouldn't otherwise have considered. And use Craigslist.
adunn[at]box.net
Perhaps a proper recommendation would be "apply for jobs in NYC. The word is they're quite desperate for competent developers".
You are too self-deprecating about your startup experience. Even if it didn't pan out, you must have learnt a lot, both on the technical and on the business side. You really have to reconnect with your passions and your strengths; if you are aware of your value, it is fairly easy to get the message across to others. What was driving you for so long when working on your startup? What was the vision? That's where your value is.
But you might try selling your abilities. Can you demonstrate your failed startup's code?
I don't think it is wise pitching yourselves to companies who are hiring 100K+ engineers saying you are willing to work for minimum wage. It shows a lack of confidence that you are selling yourself so far under market. Pricing is often a signal for quality. More importantly, the cost of a bad engineering hire is far greater than the salary you're being paid -- a bad engineering hire takes time to get rid of, and often produces negative work output. People end up cleaning up a mess, opportunities are lost while a bad engineer flails at what should be simple code, etc. A bad engineer could work for free and still be a worse value for a company than an engineer making market rate. This is the signal you're sending when working for minimum wage.
Don't discount the experience you gained trying to do your startup. As others have said, you weren't unemployed but self-employed.
I'm not just being cynical here-- I have lived in Palo Alto for just under 6 weeks and my RoR skills are subpar at best. Nevertheless I've been offered multiple jobs, co-founder opportunities, etc. And I'm not even that likable. If you're a nice guy, the opportunities are endless!
That being said, on the off chance that this isn't a troll and you don't have any luck with the replies here that are offering assistance: contact me (see my profile for info) and I'll throw some contracting work your way.
Just do your best to be a nice person, and look for opportunities to create value for others.
If you have any skill with 2D game animation, I'm looking for some short pieces that have to be done with panache. Send me email at my HN username at gmail dot com, if you are interested.
From what I can tell, you first need to say to youself, "I am done with my startup, now to get a job." Then your talking should be focused on getting yourself a job. Only look for minimum wage job if you are financially desperate.
Otherwise, spend the time figuring out which start-up to apply for. I graduated last May and it took me 8 months to land my first "real" job. The key component I learned is that out-of-college will have a hard time landing contract or a job at big companies. Your best place to land a job at is a start-up because they are more willing to look over lack of work-experience for having actual skill set. As long as you are good at programming, you will be able to land a job.
I also took a different approach than you. Instead of going directly into start-up, I decided to first work at a start-up and learn how the start-up world works. I realized early on that I am more of the type who likes to learn from others experience, as to avoid making same mistakes and to do things that would actually make my startup successful. For me, learning on-the-job at a startup means figuring out your own way of doing things that work, but it also means you don't get benefit of taking into account how others dealt with the same issue.
On a side not, AppMakr is hiring! http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/web/2230975872.html If you feel you are up for the job, don't be shy to apply/
To land my first gig I found job postings on craiglists or wherever then searched company on facebook to see if any of my friends was connected to an employee at X company. This landed me a few interviews pretty quickly. Now I indeed I did start at a low level salary, but it has quickly increased. IF this is indeed true ... good luck; think outside the box like this post to help you get your 1st gig!
Anything such as working on a personal startup or returning to education is seen as non-work and counts against you (I've heard this from several agencies in Europe and a careers advisor).
As it is, things are looking up for me but the situation as described in the question strikes me as being very real. I imagine graduates with no work experience are having a terrible time.
No work experience? Is that a reflection of how lowly you valued your startups? These are real businesses and you worked for them, right? Isn't this work experience?
In any case, if this is real then you won't have a problem finding work now. Everyone replying to this thread would be willing to throw you work at minimum wage. ;)
I am working with a couple of startups and everyone is desparate for talent. I know many that would give a week or two with some small jobs to try you out.
That being said. Get some code samples out somewhere. Post a link to your failed startup. There may be another startup working on a similar or related idea who could integrate parts of your code and give you a job.
It is cool that you have a BS in CompSci but to me that means nothing. I know many people who have one but cant code for shit.
Let us know you can actually code.
Contact me and I will see what I can do to help you out.
Here some cool things you could do (some of which i'll have to do myself):
1.) Put your resume on Google docs NOW. Repost it from here. Make it a living document.
2.) Get a Google sites account. Possibly put up examples of your programming knowledge (essays?). Point your name.com to it if you can, otherwise make sure the site is sites.google.com/yourname
3.) Get a github account. Push your work up (even if it is only examples of your knowledge)
4.) Contribute to FOSS projects, get to know the committers and make contacts.
5.) Check out some freelance sites and as I understand it you could probably undercut a lot of these people. This might be some added experience you'll be able to add to your resume. After several jobs your resume should look a bit better.
6.) Good luck chap! Give me your twitter account so I can follow and RT. :-)