Ask HN: How do you manage self-study?

666 points by ruph123 ↗ HN
I often feel overwhelmed by the amount of things I either wish to know or that I should know already.

Be it theoretical knowledge about ML, CS, mechanics, math topics. Or lack of experience e.g in some algorithms I need to understand, control problems, programming lanuages.

And I really struggle to organize a propper study schedule. What should I do next? Should I continue learning this one programming language? Continue reading this ML book? Try to set up and solve some control problems? For each topic I would like to learn, I already have the right material (books, problems to solve, etc.), so at least this is not a problem.

Often I am so overwhelmed that I just watch stuff on youtube.

I wish I had a tool or found a methodology to a) stay focused on the things I want to learn and b) to somehow track my progress.

Are there any tools or methodologies that you can recommend? Please don't tell me "just use pen & paper", I tried and I would like something more interactive.

228 comments

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I have exact same problem. But for me it's not just about learning. It extends to other aspects of my life - side projects, health, work, travel, etc. I have huge lists of things I want to do, but no real way to manage them. I'm having an especially hard time balancing them.

I've been through various apps and approaches, and even tried to write some tools myself. So far I have been unsuccessful in finding the right abstractions and solution to solve the problem. Everything I've tried ran into edge cases it couldn't handle. I always came back to listing goals and daily schedules in raw text files, sometimes using org-mode.

One approach that has worked okay-ish for me is to have a hierarchy of personal OKRs. Quarterly -> Monthly -> Weekly. I found anything longer than quarterly to not be very useful - life changes too quickly. Even quarterly may be too much. You create these as-you-go, e.g. each Sunday you review your past week and create OKRs for the next week, possibly adjusting some of your monthly goals. Each day is then managed with a simple TODO list and you count tasks towards your weekly OKRs. At the end of each period (day, week, month) you have a review.

This approach still has a lot of shortcomings (not being flexible enough, not incorporating habits, some things are difficult to measure and can't be expressed as OKRs, etc) and I've tried several other things I could talk about, but the time period in which I used this approach was one of the more productive ones.

Regardless of the technique, one thing I've come to realize is that people tend to spend not enough time on "meta" - figuring out what to spend time on. If you think about it, spending 1-2 full days a month making sure that you are working on the right things aligned with your long-term goals is reasonable, but very few people spend this amount of time (me included). Instead, we tend to keep ourselves busy with the micro - tasks right in front of us.

This writing gets asked every 3 weeks. Use the search function.
I've found a combination of keeping a journal, having self-compassion, and having something to prove to be the key to sticking with a self-study regimen.

Journaling helps document progress and provides notes that you can transcribe to a spaced repetition system (i.e. flashcards) for long term retention.

Self-compassion is key for picking yourself up after you feel overwhelmed by a topic and quit for the day, which will happen. You have to not be so hard on yourself and understand that there will be good days and bad so that you can build the long term stamina needed to see the project through.

Having something to prove (i.e. I'm a business guy but I can learn coding too; I know I'm smart enough to score high on the GMAT/LSAT whatever and get into the school of my dreams, etc etc) is often what motivates me the most. It gives you that "why" that you need to keep yourself focused on finishing in the face of so many distractions until the project is done.

That's an interesting approach, but I feel like you are describing a slightly different problem than the op is talking about, or at least I have.

Once I pick something to work on I have no problem staying motivated or sticking with it. I've also never felt bad about myself running into roadblocks. My problem is that there are too many interesting things to work on, I have a hard time picking from them, leading to FOMA for all the other things I can't pick. What I'm looking for is not so much a way to stick with a task, but rather a system to help me "manage" my life, deciding which of 1,000 potential thing has the highest payoff, and how to balance them.

I dont think there is a way to know which one thing in the list of potential 1000 things, will be the one that has highest payoff. And the definition of payoff also depends on what your goals are. For examples, learning computer networking concepts will have different payoff for someone who wants to get a PhD in Machine Learning (it will help him/her write better software maybe, or add to his/her list of employable skills), vs someone who is building distributed systems. So you have to take some bets. Think about stuff like what one or two things you can learn in next 6 months that will get you closer to your most coveted goals. And just try to focus on them. If there are more than 1/2 things, filter them out based on what gets you excited more. At the end, its all about your perspective.
Check this post out: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22792829. Some relevant tips in there to what you describe. The book in the top comment wasn’t a panacea for me but it was helpful in working through some of the issues you describe (or my personal version of them at least).
have you tried the regret-minimzation angle?
I did not write it but I keep this in my notes when I have such doubts ->

Circle of competence (read about it on wiki as well):

Short-term

What job can you be hired for an hold for a year and make the most money? If you forced yourself to make money doing one job and holding onto that job for at least one year, what would you do? What skills does that entail? If you're not sure, go network and interview. What gigs can you get right now and get folks to pay you - whether you advertise on Quora, Facebook, call your friends, family, neighbors, etc.? What skills does that entail? What do people ask you to do more than they ask others to do? That's what they think your circle of competence is. They're part of the market. The market will value your competence whether you like it or not.

Long-term

What do you like doing that is a marketable skill? What do you spend your time doing? You'll get better at something you like doing and keep doing, especially if that skill is in demand and others are not as devoted to it or as interested in it. The things you do which you like doing and spend a lot of time doing - as long as you make sure you keep improving - will become part of your circle of competence.

Yes! I found that once I started putting my achievements and goals on paper, it really motivated me to achieve my goals, and be proud of what I had done so far. Just write down what you did everyday, and what you hope to accomplish tomorrow. It's kinda stupid, but was scary effective for me.
Have a particular project in mind. It doesn’t have to be serious, but it can cover a lot of ground.

I have learned more about physics than in my whole life before, when I took the hobby project of recreating the numerical simulation of a nuclear explosion. It was immensely satisfying.

I have a learning Trello board with categories "Maybe", "To Do", "In Progress" and "Done". When I come across something new it goes in the maybe category. I also make sure to only work on something if it's "in progress" and keep the in-progress list limited to 2-3 items at any time.
As a high school student now studying at home, I also use a similar system :)
How do you decide when to call something 'Done'?

Or perhaps (anticipating a possible answer) How do you apportion tickets such that they represent things that can be called 'Done'?

Each ticket is a specific course/book/tutorial so it's easy to know if I've completed it or not.
My thing is similar, there is a lot I want to learn.

My problem is a little different that even when I do it... it's on my own, late at night, I'm tired and frustrated that I'm not learning at the pace I want to.

I've sort of settled that self learning for me is just going to be a mix of hacking things out clumsily and watching some videos before bed, and maybe maybe some lucky times where I have free time (rare with a family with kids) and some bits of it will stick, others won't, and I'll probably watch it again later and that's ok.

In short rather than sweat the outcomes too much and get frustrated and not do the thing, I just do the things and frankly that usually results in better outcomes long term.

Granted... I'm still working on all of this ;)

I've been trying to figure this out for decades now. From my teens, I realized that the internet was limitless in how much info it had, but that I was limited in how much I could pack into my brain.

Here are some things I try to keep in mind as I try to learn new things:

* Get enough sleep and nutrition. If you're tired/hungry you're going to feel overwhelmed faster

* Don't rely on motivation, instead rely on discipline. Motivation is great for a burst of energy, but it will eventually leave you. Discipline, on the other hand, is what will make you start and finish that book / online course, etc.

* Track your progress in whatever way is best suited to you. This could be as simple as a check on a calendar or using an app. Personally I like the Jiffy and Habits app on the Android store. Seeing progress helps with both motivation and discipline.

* Learn one thing at a time. It's tempting to spread yourself thin, but sticking to one thing is best.

* Give yourself more time than you think you'll need to learn. In a classroom setting you can raise your hand and ask an expert a question which they can quickly clear up for you. When you're doing self-study you'll find that you may ask the wrong question, interpret things wrong, go down a Google rabbit hole trying to understand related topics, dig through forum answers which may not quite answer your question, and leave you with even more questions.

* Figure out your learning method. Maybe it's video, maybe it's a book. Your preferred learning method may change over time and it may change by topic. Don't be afraid to stop one method and pick up with a new one, or change midway through. For example, when I'm learning a new language I find video courses helpful to get me started, but then once I'm running and past the basics, I find text content easier to digest.

* Personally I get frustrated when learning new things when someone decides to coin a new jargon term. For example a little while back I ran into the term "upsert" to refer to an "update or insert" process. The text I was reading used it like I was supposed to know what it was, but I had never run into it before. These things frustrate me and usually make me feel like I'm way behind in basic knowledge and tend to kill both motivation and discipline. Why not just the extended-term, especially in a course designed for beginners? It causes a weird mental block for me. My solution is to just say "Fuck you, but fine. I accept this as it is". It's a little mental prayer than helps me move past the feeling.

I think you are describing "how to learn effectively, manage time, and stay motivated [once you've picked a topic]" - which is important and useful, but IMO slightly different from what the OP is describing (and a problem I have), which is "how to pick what to learn next when there are 1,000 interesting choices with uncertain payoffs"

For example, you say "Learn one thing at a time" - Sure, but how do you pick that one thing when there are 1,000 things on your list that all seem equally useful and interesting? What I am looking for is a proper system for picking that one thing, not using my gut feeling.

Here's a simple system: find out what resources you absolutely cannot bear to delete. If it's all of them, then your problem lies elsewhere.
I disagree. Don't need to force yourself to stick to one specific material if you don't like it. All my life I've benefitted from being a horizontal person - having always dabbled in everything I found interesting at the time.

Yes to get into a job you'll need specific skills and certificates and there you quickly deepen your knowledge as needed on the topic(s) you neer. But once you're in it you'll shine by having many varied skills. Being the one office worker with excel skills, or the one programmer able to tell a nice narrative, or the one c programmer that understands web apps, or... - you'll stand out.

So my suggestion would be to let your passion drive you. Pick up any topic that seems interesting right now and throw yourself into it. And then the next the next day.

One technique that keeps me motivated is thinking from the point of view of the future. I ask myself how much further along will I be if I start now?
I feel like the best way to learn new things is to actually build something? Want to learn a new language? Build something with the language? Want to learn a new algorithm? Try to incorporate that algorithm into the project you are currently working on. Trying to study boring non-real life examples get boring real fast. Applying them into real life is a good way to help you keep “studying”.
So, it sounds like you're facing is one of prioritization.

Remember that you can't learn _everything_ at once. You have to choose a focus. That could be a tool you want to exist, a hero you want to emulate, or a problem you want to solve. There's a section in Mastering Software Technique that discusses this: https://software-technique.com/ (it is a book, but one that I highly recommend for people wanting to learn software development better). Ultimately, that focus can shift over time as needed, and the most important thing about it is that it motivates you.

For me, I mostly manage self-study via projects. There are various things I'd like to build. Lately, I've been using Nim to build various tools I'd like to have, which has involved learning about different facets of Nim, and it's libraries.

For me, if what I want to learn is less concrete, having a personal wiki also helps. I currently use VimWiki at work to track what I need to write down, but anything that makes it easy to link between articles, and doesn't put too much of an editing barrier up is good.

I don't. I let my path in front of me determine what I learn.

One of the biggest practical lessons I learned after leaving college is that most of the things I learned in college are useless to me now. The philosophical lesson was that study plans and syllabi are useful, but only as a list of things you might need to know...a way of knowing what you don't know (which is very important!). But as a way of determining what you learn, you're just going to waste your time. Let your path in front of you determine which of those things you don't know is the thing you need to learn.

My educational background is Supply Chain Management. My career path forked within my first professional job as a supply chain analyst due to the simple constraint that Excel at the time wouldn't let me systematically manage inventory settings for more than 65k unique inventory SKUs. That is how I ended up learning R and SQL...my first programming languages in a long list to come. Now I manage radiofrequency sprectrum analytics for a major cellular network provider, and I algotrade commodity futures on the side. Getting from there to here was a long path of letting my current needs determine what I needed to learn.

Additionally, perhaps anecdotally, concepts that you learn have much better staying power in your memory when you have an actual need to learn them.

> Getting from there to here was a long path of letting my current needs determine what I needed to learn.

Or you could have followed the syllabus and worked there immediately after finishing university?

I did follow the syllabus. Almost everything I learned is useless to me. I don't even work in the field I graduated in anymore.

If what you want to be narrowly fits into a single definition, and that syllabus is precisely formulated to get you there, and you are 100% certain that you will never change paths in life, then sure, maybe following the syllabus is the right way for you to self study. My experience, however, is that people that like learning things rarely stick to the straight line.

> Additionally, perhaps anecdotally, concepts that you learn have much better staying power in your memory when you have an actual need to learn them.

Totally agree there!! A very important point to take away.

I prefer “pull” learning instead of “push” learning. By that I mean having something interesting to “pull” me to learning something vs. having the discipline to make myself study (push) the subject.

Example: I need to learn HTML, JavaScript and maybe Node.js for upcoming project. I couldn't make myself open the books for more than 15 minutes but the other day I came up with a fun project that requires these and now I can’t wait to learn this stuff.

This is more advice than a technique, so take it for what it’s worth. Show some self-compassion and don’t be too hard on yourself. The fact that you’re actively pursuing knowledge puts you ahead of a lot of other people.

Also, take time to consider that the things you know you don’t know are often more valuable than what you do actually know. By that I mean that your awareness of your limitations will broaden your critical thinking skills. Nassim Taleb’s concept of an anti library is tangentially related: https://fs.blog/2013/06/the-antilibrary/

The goal post will always be moving. You’ll never be finished, and trying to create a complete body of knowledge will only deepen your anxiety.

I was having very similar thoughts to you about a month ago. For me I decided to take a bit more of a “holistic” approach in the sense that I wanted to learn backend development, architecture etc so decided to create a website and set everything up by scratch.

I over engineered everything - I have a CI/CD pipeline for a wordpress website that I really do not need but it meant that I now know how to do it.

Not only that I force myself once a week to write about what I’ve learned that week for my development for my blog that nobody really know exists. But it keeps me accountable for having to continuously learn and improve.

I’m currently setting up my website in various regions then knocking them out to see how I can make sure everything stays online whilst also piping all my server logs to a logging platform.

> Often I am so overwhelmed that I just watch stuff on youtube.

Use this to turn your problem around. Try making a video for someone just like you. You already know what a good video looks like because you've watched a ton of them.

If your goal is to make a good tutorial video, you can take those play problems without any real world application and turn them into content. That way your problem becomes "teach xyz in 15 min on youtube" instead of "master xyz by myself".

Teaching others is often said to be the best way to learn something yourself.

As you publish and get feedback, you can lean on your viewers to figure out what to build next. Eventually you'll be an expert in your chosen domain and have a following of people and have great SEO if you want to start looking for work.

Note: I haven't done this myself, but I wish I had, and obviously youtube is filled with people who are doing this about every topic under the sun. This is my plan for when I'm done with "work".

I want to agree with this because teaching IS a great learning tool but one needs to have some idea of what they are doing. Teaching helps to identify the problem areas we fool ourselves into believing we understand well.

Youtube is an amazing resource but it's also an ocean of incompetence and phony expertise by people doing exactly what you prescribe. Just be careful not to contribute to the ever expanding circle jerk of self congratulatory mediocrity. No one wants that.

Others will make content whether you do or not. Chances are that if you're sensitive to the ocean of incompetence, you would be a positive contributor.

I don't know if there's a name for this phenomenon, but lots of qualified and talented will refrain from showing off their less-than-perfect work, because they know it's not perfect. I understand the impulse, and it's why I haven't published over the years. Only recently have I realized that publishing imperfect things is way better than not publishing anything at all, both for yourself and for the community as a whole.

Even if you can only raise the bar a little bit from what currently exists, that's a worthwhile effort.

The key here is honesty and showing vulnerability, preferably through humor when appropriate.

This way the consumer knows where the limitations are and you possibly create an emotional connection.

"Often I am so overwhelmed that I just watch stuff on youtube." That's was funny )) I would recommend reading some books on this topic for ex: Essentialism, The power of habit. In general, this comes from a lack of priority so use the Eisenhower Matrix to establish that priority and make the conscious decision to do the one thing which is most important.
I think there can a few sides in the problem of prioritising and sticking to things.

1. maybe, you push yourself too hard to self-improve and learn. You “should” or “must” learn ML, maths. Such forcing can lead to frustration, low self-esteem, procrastination. Reflect, if it is the case and you can address by being more relaxed, CBT techniques like saying to yourself “I absolutely do not have to work through this maths topic today, but I choose to do it, because I want to be able to ...”

2. You cannot decide what to focus on, everything is cool and important, and you do not want to be wrong in your choice. You can address this problem with a short week long dives into different topics, and collecting more personal experience to make decision. Or just accept the fact of uncertainty, just pick with your heart, and enjoy the ride. Your current struggles to choose may be of zero importance to yourself in five years.

3. You cannot stick to a single topic. It might be ADHD, or you are passionate about the result, think mostly about how great it will be to work as a top ML researcher, instead of focusing on the process. Make your study engaging - emotionally and mentally. In my case, I become sleepy in 15 minutes when reading some maths textbook, but I feel much more alive and engaged when I solve problems in the book, or when I read a book with a practical goal in mind. Invest in loving the process of study.

I'm hoping my reply is more helpful than it sounds at first glance... This is one of those questions where I read and then exclaim (rhetorically), "what's wrong with people?!"

Don't take this the wrong way, I often exclaim this. You are quite possibly in the majority and I'm the odd one.

To me it has always seemed inherently clear that the way to approach life is to do something if you enjoy it. If you stop enjoying it then do something else. I will naturally need a break from doing something after a while (hours, days, weeks), and so I'll put it down and pickup something else.

As a recent article on HN mentioned, "enthusiasm is worth 25 IQ points."

When it comes to self-guided activities such as this, there has never been a "should" or "best" for me. I just follow what I enjoy, perhaps guided secondarily by what may be useful. (Actually, I enjoy things that are useful, so perhaps that intertwines these concepts for me). I suspect I didn't thrive at university for this reason, while in the real world I know a number of people who would call me an overachiever.

PS. I have a few friends with some degree of ADHD. These friends may often feel overwhelmed by a large number of choices or tasks, to the point of inaction. I'm not saying this applies to you, but I just thought it was worth mentioning.

Ok I enjoy watching YouTube, so I will do that
What kind of videos you watch? Maybe that could guide you to find something which interests you.
I recently heard the advice to do some forensics on yourself -- bookmarks, search history, youtube history, to figure out what kind of person you are (in the context of what work would suit you best).
Do you really enjoy watching YouTube, or is it just easy to fire up their home page and click on recommended videos with promising titles that ultimately leave you unfulfilled, lonely and disillusioned?

Are you wondering how to break this cycle of content consumption? Do you need a break from the hedonistic treadmill of social media?

Quite a few leading questions there! I'm sure you have probably touched a nerve for us all at one point or another but why not go easy on the attack and dive in with some empathy? Or why not play silly buggers with randomish thoughts:

Perhaps we could come up with a trail of breadcrumbs that touches on decent YT vids. By leaving carefully coded comments. warms to idea That would leave the trail in YT itself which would self heal if multiply pointered properly, ie each point has a link forwards, backwards and to, perhaps a hub to use in the event of a bigger outage.

The above might be far more fun to deploy than a search engine or an old school WAIS/Gopher. After a while the host would cotton on and decide to either encourage or thwart. Game on!

sips more wine OK so who fancies playing stenography style games with YT comments to generate guided courses using YT vids?

I don't think it was intended as an attack, but rather the GP's own experience with YouTube time-wasting. It's certainly mine.
Andrew Ng. Machine Thinking. 8-Bit Guy. Ben Eater. Jeri Ellsworth. I do some of my best learning with YouTube.
I enjoy these sort of channels, but I would say I ever "learn" anything from them.
I watched hours of gardening and cooking videos on YouTube yesterday and learned a lot of useful information. Unfortunately that probably won't help me with my next job interview :(
Those are creative activities and fun things to talk about. They can also be used as illustrative analogies for software.
Most things that are fun, and almost everything that is amazing, require periods of not-fun to get there.

Practicing a musical instrument, falling while snowboarding, getting up early to be on the mountain for the sunrise.

The original poster is asking for ideas to help build enough discipline to power through the tough spots of a learning curve to get to where the proficiency pays off in enjoyment or other benefits.

We have so many easy diversions, that it's easy to train one's self to not do hard things.

I can study/practice/work for a future benefit, or I can play a video game (or browse hn) for fun now!

Training yourself to do hard things is harder. Maintaining a vision of the goal, getting satisfaction from expending effort, having empathy for your future self, denying yourself of immediate distractions/pleasures can each play a role.

> Practicing a musical instrument

This is not fun?

STE-PING-UP. STE-PING-DOWN. THEN. A. SKIP

C D E E D C D E C

Practicing a musical instrument is not fun. Playing a musical instrument is fun. Practicing is mostly repeating scales and other patterns.

someone told me that the way they learned to play the violin was that had to love being bad at it. Love the experience of _not_ being able to do it, of it not coming naturally, of trying and failing, of being overwhelmed by it, and of slowly and painfully getting better.

If you can enjoy that, you can enjoy it the whole way through. If you see it as a gauntlet of pain you have to cross before you get to the good stuff, you won’t get there.

When you know a piece and play it, it can be fun. But the way there can be frustrating and tedious. You'll make mistakes. You'll learn slower than you'd like. You might repeat the same section a hundred times before you feel satisfied. Some days you'll even feel like you've forgotten how to play certain parts properly. But you do it anyways because you know it's rewarding and satisfying at the end of the day (and with a certain level of discipline), not because it's fun moment-to-moment.
Maybe I’m doing it wrong then.
I don't think enjoyment is the guide we should always use for deciding what to do. That is one aspect of our lives that is important to maintain, but a lot of satisfaction in life comes from things that aren't 'enjoyable' in the strictest sense, especially not in the moment that you are doing the action. Hard work, selflessness, and sacrifice doesn't usually feel enjoyable in the moment, but can lead to a more satisfying life.
From the other comments here this seems like a common sentiment. I do indeed do things which are not enjoyable in the strictest sense, as you phrase it. However I do still think my original comment is true, so perhaps there is some finessing to be done here. I'm not sure I have the answer though.

Perhaps there are different kinds of 'enjoyment'. And perhaps I'm personally willing to accept some immediate suffering because I know I'm pursuing a greater enjoyment.

I'm certainly not advocating for (constantly) pursuing in-the-moment unbridled hedonism.

Something which may be related to this is the idea of type 1 fun and type 2 fun. I'm not sure where I heard this, but few people I talk to have heard of it.

Type 1 fun is the kind of fun which is enjoyable in the moment. For example, computer games and watching youtube videos.

Type 2 fun is the kind of fun which is enjoyable upon reflection but not necessarily in the moment. For example, running a marathon, certain moments of trial/despair when working on a big project.

When I first played Factorio I played it for about a week solid. I loved it. After that I could put it down and do other things. I now play it for a couple of days every couple of months when the mood takes me. This is type 1 fun for me.

I'm certainly glad a ran a marathon, and it is a very happy memory, but no way in hell am I going to do that again. Very much type 2 fun.

Some comments (not necessarily the one I'm replying to) seem to inversely correlate enjoyment with how hard a task is. The harder a task is the less likely it is to be enjoyable. Is this true? It certainly isn't my experience, but maybe I'm odd as I originally suggested.

Something which has also driven me is boredom. Being a freelance developer has given me a lot of free time. Certainly for me, type 1 fun only goes so far in conquering that boredom. Sure, play computer games for 6 months, but then that gets boring too. At least it did for me. Then what?

Then, for me, type 2 fun starts to look more appealing. Perhaps I should build a house? Sure its going to be hard, but I'm practical and I like leaning new stuff. Plus I'll be outdoors, and at the end of it I'll have a house. (FWIW, I actually did this)

Perhaps that's just being an "up" kind of person. I think it is also believing in one's abilities.

I don't think this is a cohesive point with a strong conclusion, but perhaps this series of paragraphs is useful in furthering a discussion.

I'm in the same boat as you, except that I classify most games that I enjoy as type 1 fun. Mentally taxing, frustrating, making the victory so much sweeter. This, learning "hard things" is type 1 fun. Until it isn't. And then I do something else.

I'm also "ADHD." Quotes because after 30 some years living with the diagnosis (and reconfirmed, both by others and myself), I still don't really know what it means. Something sometimes discussed is "hyper focus" for ADHD folks. Honestly I think this is just a normal expression of that other quality: a total inability to engage with something once it becomes boring. And excitement for those things that retain interest. Naturally, things that are confusing or complex tend to be impossible to initially approach, but gain momentum as you gather more clues and understanding.

I have great sympathy for those that try to go "the hard way." I did that before I got into software development. I denied my misery (of not software dev) for a decade because I understood that hard things are hard, and believed my misery would pay off.

Turns out, I didn't have all sides to the equation. Hard things are hard AND hard things that you are passionate about can be your way to contribute to the world. Doing something that is "hard" BECAUSE it is hard only because you have no passion in it is a bizarre but plausible scenario for what I imagine are many HN readers.

This is my biggest struggle right now. I am very similar in "nature" to you and the OP you replied to. I just cannot get myself to do hard things ONLY because they are hard. I am young and struggling to find my way. Thanks for sharing your perspective. I have always thought something is wrong with me. But maybe I am just wired that way. I can still immerse myself in really hard things but only if I enjoy it.
Have you thought how do we define hard! As soon as you call something hard then it becomes hard, maybe it's all about our perception.
The best you can do is constrain your environment in a general direction. In my own life, when I try hard to do something I really don't want to do, it ends up being a set-back. Time wasted.

If instead I go deep on what I enjoy, I am happier in the short term AND long term. When I was younger, I would "waste" time on strategy/tactical games. But I think I actually gained some long-term planning skills from this, and developed a taste for "slow thinking" from this activity. And now those games are boring to me.

Last weekend I buried my head in functional/algebraic programming, even though my conscious brain was saying it was a total waste of time and distraction from my real tasks/goals. From the experience, I've learned that functional programming really isn't the silver bullet I want to believe it should be. But I trust myself enough to believe that even if the payoff isn't obvious, or even if it doesn't apply in my professional life, that my brain giving me enjoyment for the activity is enough of a signal that it was time well spent...even if I really can't justify it to anyone including myself.

You can point yourself in a general direction by setting up your environment towards that direction. Buy books in things you're interested in even if you never end up reading them. Give your body sunshine. Never go grocery shopping when hungry, and fill your fridge only with good foods. The key to letting your unconscious brain take over is that you only give it access to the sugar that your executive planning brain believes will work.

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I find it so curious you think of something like a marathon as Type 2 activity. For me it's the supreme Type 1 activity. As in when I am running there is nothing else I'd rather be doing even with the pain etc.
Yeah, running isn’t my natural sport. I did it with some friends because someone dropped out, and it actually sounded pretty fun. It wasn’t a hardcore marathon in very many ways. It was the Medoc marathon in France, in which each stop is a vineyard where you drink some of their wine before running another 2km. At the 40km mark there are oysters, and then at 42km there is ice cream (!). I think my time was 7h30 (certainly nothing to brag about), but I did drink about three bottles of wine on the way around. It was actually a lot of fun mixed in with a lot of suffering. Glad I did it, I wouldn’t do it again.
I downvoted your original post because it was the top post. It did not answer the OP's original question. It should be one of the answers but not the top answer.

You should to some extent enjoy what you are doing particularly when what you enjoy is in line with what you want to get out of life.

The OP asked for tools for focus. Most of us need tools to gain perspective because we are so busy day to day that we don't see how it will fit in with a full life. We all need tools to periodically take a step back and see how everything fits together. I think you do that naturally but it was not in your post.

BTW - I can tell you do not have young children. They will completely change your perspective.

Your Type 1 and Type 2 sound somewhat related to Daniel Kahneman's System 1 and System 2 from Thinking Fast and Slow. The 1's are reactive, shallow, and (to anthromorphize a bit) "lazy". The 2's are more strategic, looking past the moment and integrating a broader set of information.
Yep. Also, see if there's a game that teaches you the thing you want to learn.

I learned orbital mechanics from Kerbal Space Program.

Assembly programming from TIS-100 and Microcorruption.

And … whatever the heck I learned from Factorio. Logistics? Abstraction?

If there isn't a game, you might try and make it a game. See how fast you can solve the example problems in the textbook. Get the high score on your flashcards. (This doesn't work for me, I get more interested in designing and building the game than playing it.)

Factorio literally lets you build a system then have bugs attack it. By itself that is the basis for a lot of systems thinking right there.

Especially when you're production drops and you run out of ammo. And the bugs are coming. And power is running low. And you're low on iron-plate and you need that for ammo. Which you're now low on.

If you like TIS-100 and similar games, check out MHRD (available on Steam and itch.io). It teaches you a simplified version of hardware description language that you'd use to synthesize stuff on an FPGA or ASIC.

You start out using NAND gates to build foundational logic gates (AND, OR, etc.), and gradually work your way up to building stuff like I/O multiplexers, memory, an ALU, and finally a working CPU using the building blocks you've created along the way.

any recommendations for games related to Computer Science, Data Structures, Algorithms, etc.? I have already tried human resource machine and 7 billion humans, but got bored after a while?
Almost everything from Zachtronics studio (various concepts), Gladiabots (haven't played much but seems reasonable, build AI decision trees), Prime Mover (circuits), Silicon Zeroes (similar to MHRD but more user friendly), Cypher (haven't played much, Cryptography).
Is it essentially nand2tetris in game format? I tried making my way through that a couple times but maybe some gamification is just what I needed.
I haven't done nand2tetris (despite buying the companion book which has been gathering dust for some time on my bookshelf...), but I understand it's roughly equivalent to the first few chapters.
on the other hand, if you enjoy goofing off playing video games more than you enjoy doing math courses & you act on that, then reality will find you a job at McDonald's instead of a coding job. So choose what you enjoy wisely.
For these kinds of purposes, I liken most video games to drugs, or junk food -- they're designed to appeal to some of our instincts without actually satisfying the needs those instincts are meant to address. They offer us novelty without meaningful discovery, challenge without development of a transferable skill. Do what interests you, with the caveat that if people have spent time and effort to create something that plays with your brain chemistry and creates the artificial sensation of "interest," then consume in moderation. The same applies to TV shows, trashy novels, and any other "content" that is meant to be consumed, rather than spur creativity.

Not meaning to judge anyone here. I'm mostly speaking from my own challenges. And obviously, I'm not talking about all games, TV shows, etc., either.

You can do what you want, but not will what you want. Same with enjoyment. There is no choice here, only discovery.
Funny because in my experience people are good at math tend to like playing games. At a certain level, every game is math after all.
What you call goofing off playing video games others call research.
I want to add some clarification for everyone in the "normal" boat, because I think I learn in the same way as parent:

Specifically what "enjoy" is being attributed to... which is _not_ the end result, but the _process_. You can't pick this up front, you have to just play and throw things away like you don't care (and you really don't care), just keep trying things until it feels enjoyable. I suspect people get stuck running uphill because they focus on end results rather than the process. In the most extremely obvious case, if you ask most kids what they want to be when the grow up (the end result) they predictably say astronaut or some lofty, hard to attain but awesome sounding end result, even though they have absolutely no idea if they would enjoy the process of becoming and being an astronaut.

... Focus on the process, i.e play, and care about nothing other than interest and enjoyment, you cannot pick the precise end result, you can only roll the marble along the most effective path to an unspecified "good" result.

This needs a bot more clarification please. What are your thoughts about the process of browsing social media which is interesting and enjoyable
I've wondered recently whether I want things that are bad for me, and how to tell the difference.

What I noticed was that cravings for harmful substances or behaviors were (the craving itself) a form of suffering, a feeling of lack, while desires for healthy things were a form of positive emotion / eagerness.

In essence you are asking me to explain how to differentiate entertainment from everything else.

It's probably best to literally ask yourself that question honestly, but a good rule of thumb might be: If it's not intellectually stimulating, it's probably pure entertainment. This is tricky because some good forms of entertainment will make you think, but probably not enough to be considered "learning" in the way we mean here.

Finding something enjoyable that also earns a living is not easy for everyone.
>"what's wrong with people?!"

some like setting goals with their hobbies. achieving those goals takes discipline most of the time. there's nothing wrong with trying to optimize how go about cultivating that discipline.

of course if you're trying to be disciplined compulsively then that's a different matter.

I agree with you, but I think there is enjoyment in getting a deep understanding of one area and having a plan can help you do this. Instead of walking around it can be fun to climb a mountain or go for an over night hike.

For example if you want to get stronger having a workout plan can help you get that goal. Going to the gym and do whatever will keep you in shape and if that keeps you motivated that's great, but some are motivated by doing something they can't do right now.

Some people enjoy doing useful things (my wife is one), others enjoy useless things (me - mostly video games, reading random trivia online, or trying new recipes which is nice but doesn't pay the bills).

So if I were to take your advice (and honestly, I mostly do run like that) it means a lot of time spent doing something ephemeral with no real lasting benefit. I think your last point applies to me. I wish I could summon enthusiasm for projects rather than hobbies.

This is a bit of an adage but can you make your hobbies your projects for some amount of time? For example, I spent a while at a start up recently and I really started to find programming boring for the first time in my life. I started setting a side more time to work on it as a hobby and my own projects instead of watching twitch or TV. I eventually started feeling more enthusiasm for work programming projects. I feel like you get bored of everything eventually, and in some cases just temporarily. And that makes you fine for your hobbies which you don’t spend more time on bc of your main focus. It’s bit of a tug of war. So you can either search and try to get it back or get rid of the boring projects forever. It can be very difficult and daunting, especially professionally, but there is always more and different work to be done somewhere.
My abandoned projects graveyard would be bigger than google's if I weren't just one guy.

I like games so started doing a Unity course, it was fun, but then I got bored and stopped. No real reason, I think something else just caught my eye and it's hard to go back.

I want to learn marketing automation so I installed Mautic but haven't gone much past that. The plethora of options (what feature to try first?) is paralysing.

I help out with a Wordpress site and think making plugins would be neat, so I made one to help test some stuff, and that scratched the itch and now I don't really feel like doing it anymore even though it would be useful (and maybe profitable?) to learn.

These were all fun and interesting I just seem to lose interest very quickly (a few days) and want to do something with more novelty. Probably the most productive way this manifests is cooking, at least we get to eat a bunch of new recipes. Today I'm making bread but hopefully I can also finish setting up this email series :)

You just haven't found something that you're interested in which also happens to intersect with being useful, yet.

Exploring more interests and different ways of doing things changed a lot of things for me.

Things can also change when you know how to do things in a way that aligns with you. I used to hate cooking, but found my take on it.

That assumes that there is such an intersection and that there is enough leisure time to get there. Most people need to figure out how to feed themselves and pay the bills before they can meander across that intersection of utility and entertainment. Especially due to the added competition from everyone else pursuing passion projects, like acting or working in the videogame industry. Everyone wants to do it, which drives average wages down.
I'm mostly the same way. I think people go to school and get the idea deeply embedded in them that they need to have homework and proper study time or they're not learning. Yeah, there's tons to learn about computer science, but you don't need to learn it all. Learn what interests you, and if you really need a job, learn what will get you a job.

Personally I go for smaller coding exercises, things like exercism.io, simply because I don't have the free time to embark on huge projects. I find that these are a good way to learn new languages. And they also remind me why I love programming in the first place, because I get to work in a pure problem-solving space, without the bearocracy, deadlines, etc, that I get in my day job.

I honestly feel like this is the secret. It took me years to figure out, too.

It is, however, a piece of advice that will likely upset a lot of people, because, they'll say, not every activity worth doing is enjoyable. Which, obviously, is true. Sometimes learning something new or hard can be very difficult. But if you're motivated by your own interest and curiosity, the pain will actually be rewarding rather than soul-destroying.

I just treat my curiosity like a compass now, and let it take me wherever.

I have this as well. I worry about the system I'll use for doing things all the time. E.g. I now have a system for storing things I learn and getting back to them, and I've decided that the learning I do during work time should be some sort of project whereas during my own time I want to go wide and read on lots of random topics, from my Goodreads list. But the findings go into the same system. There is lots more to it.

I can understand "do something if you enjoy it, if you stop enjoying it then do something else." And my first reaction is to modify my system so that there are checks for enjoyment in there...

(In fact, I do. E.g. when working on to-do lists I don't prioritize them anymore unless necessary, I just try to think what I feel like doing the most. But I had to decide that).

It's like analysis paralysis but in many parts of life. There are things I'm very bad at because I never stop the analysis, like housekeeping.

I'm currently trying to find out if I'm on the autism spectrum, so maybe that is what is different about some people.

It sounds like you are doing similar on what i'm doing.

Unfortunate for me, my street smarts and enthusiasm doesn't help me in achieving my next dream.

I would love to work for a specific big company but without structured learning, i will not beat that shitty interview barrier.

Well it’s kind of the difference between “I’d like to learn to speak Italian” and “I’d like to be able to speak Italian”. The mastery of a new skill can be quite gratifying while the acquisition of that mastery can sometimes be a slog.

I’m sympathetic to the OP, because at times I feel the same way. I want to become proficient in new skills but sometimes I feel I’m doing it in an inefficient roundabout way.

If I only did things I enjoyed, I wouldn’t be able to live because I don’t enjoy most house work, cooking, shopping, plenty of necessary things at work (and I have changed work a few times to maximise what I do enjoy, but there’s limits), etc.

I do feel that a large reason why mundane, boring or unenjoyable things are so hard has to do with overstimulation from low effort high dopamine activities. It becomes much easier to tackle these things if your base level of dopamine is low, so small achievements give you a nice boost. It’s very hard to keep the base level low, though, in our always connected high stimulation world...

Which is why the ultimate move is to teach yourself to enjoy the things you know you need to do.

Having kids helps with enjoying chores. "No babe, it's OK, I'll take the dishes and listen to my podcast. You just watch the kids."

> To me it has always seemed inherently clear that the way to approach life is to do something if you enjoy it.

I enjoy working on challenging engineering and software projects that fall into domains that interest me.

I do not enjoy having to hunt and pick through algebra concepts I was never good at in the first place so I can than spend more time on even more difficult mathematics before I can do much useful work on those aforementioned projects.

I've been in a similar boat - wanted to share what I found worked for me, perhaps it helps.

I constantly found myself in the following loop:

1) Motivated to study, study productively

2) Several days / weeks later productivity stops (for any number of reasons)

3) Quickly forget everything I learnt over the next month or so

4) Back at stage 1, feeling I have 'wasted' the last few months.

My big problem was the _forgetting_. Life is always going to get in the way, and I needed to 'drop anchor' when this happened, so I could resume where I left off, not start over.

I use Anki [1] to do this. I learn things, make flashcards, and spend dead time on public transport keeping up with them. As Anki uses spaced repetition, you can input a LOT of cards without this becoming overwhelming.

This gave me a sense of progress even when I did not study for a month, and massivly increased my motivation.

[1] https://apps.ankiweb.net/

Strong +1. I constantly felt like I was wasting time by studying and then stopping since I would forget 95% of what I learned. With a small daily investment, Anki flips that percentage to retaining 80-90%. It has been an insane boon to my motivation, and I've been able to keep a near-daily habit of doing it for 6 years now.
Are you using every week or is it when you resume where you left of you check the cards?
To be effective you need to use Anki every day. I set my goal for learning and reviewing ambient knowledge at 30 minutes per day. All ambient cards are organized under one “Daily” deck. If studying that deck exceeds 30 minutes, then I reduce the number of new cards added per day until it goes below the threshold.

For knowledges that I’m actively learning, I keep separate decks and have no time limit. Creating, splitting, and tuning cards is fundamental to my learning process.

It's a shame hard technical subjects require dynamical skills more than flash card sized facts and instant recall.

Maybe if you can figure out how to stuff a wall sized whiteboard into my phone like room-scale AR microfiche.

People will just assume I'm playing beat saber

Looks really cool I downloaded thanks a lot for sharing. How long are you using? And are you using for programming if so how does it look like your cards?
Been using for around 2 years, not that long compared to some others.

I mainly study maths and also find Anki useful for learning things like vim shortcuts (Q: Move the cursor to the middle of the screen, A: 'M').

Getting the right level of depth in a maths card is tricky and I don't think I've completely figured it out yet. Too much information in a question or answer and it becomes a 1+ minute problem every time the card appears; but not enough information and it's hard to learn the hard stuff.

So I try and break the problem down into chunks to learn the detail, and also have cards for the higher-level intuition.

With Anki retaining what you’ve learned becomes a choice. If you put it in Anki, you _will_ retain it. The challenge then becomes, What to put in Anki? I’ve memorized loads of history, often down to the birth years of notable historical figures. This doesn’t seems very useful but it has changed my appreciation of history. Every historical fact I hear now drops neatly into context. I did the same with geology, Ankifying much of the New History of Life course. I think the amount of trivia I’ve loaded into Anki is excessive, but because I have this amazing new superpower, it’s hard to stop using it. And once I have a fact in Anki and in memory, there’s just no point in removing it. That would be a choice to forget something I already know. Why do that?

I’m now using Anki to learn Vietnamese and to work through Linear Algebra Done Right. It is such a pleasure because I know what I learn won’t evaporate. It’ll be right there, instantly accessible decades from now.

Anki is an incredibly useful tool. I can’t recommend enough.

Build things and document everything you do.

Then you know, that the theories you learned about, where not just information adding to a (useful?) pile of information in your head.

Hi Raph, what's up? When it comes to improving yourself and learning new things, I think attitude is more important than tools. There is only so much you can get out of organizing your goals, resources and time if you overstretch yourself. I have found two techniques useful in terms of focusing my time and energy: Extrapolating from future achievements and elimination.

What I mean with "extrapolating from future achievements" is setting concrete goals in terms of where I want to be in five years, or what I would like to be able to say I achieved, and working backwards from there. I feel that the main reason many people engage with new ideas, technologies, tools etc. is the infamous FOMO, fear of missing out. We fear that we will be left out, worth less if we don't read this article or learn that programming language. If there is no actual driving force behind an approach to a topic, learning it will cost you a lot of energy. You will need to remind yourself again and again why you are putting in the time and effort, and even worse, the next shiny thing will be extremely distracting. If you start with the knowledge that it's taking you somewhere, however, you will have much more internal drive.

Elimination is just not doing things. You have three languages you want to learn? Drop two. Two books on algorithms? Drop one, or maybe even drop both and do some sports instead. I know this sounds silly; you are asking how you can get better at learning things, and I'm telling you not to learn them in the first place. But I think this is a key talent; dropping things and not looking back, not feeling bad about it, not losing any sleep over a missed opportunity. Everyone knows deep down that there is enough time only to concentrate on a couple of topics and areas in one lifetime; you can be a novice at many topics, but being an expert requires huge amounts of time and dedication. And the only way to bring these is by eliminating other topics. The previous technique of extrapolating from the future is useful here. Do you want to be called a great roboticist in 5 years? Then you will have to drop the ML. You want to be a great Rust programmer? You will have to let Clojure go.

I hope this is useful. What you have to keep in mind is that deep, multi-faceted expertise in a single area is very valuable, both as a trade and for you individually, to feel great about what you do. Acquiring this expertise is very difficult. You will need to put in a lot of honest work, will have a lot of dead ends and frustrations, and frequent doubts regarding your choice. Nevertheless, you should try to pick one area of expertise and eliminate all other efforts that don't contribute to your prowess at it.

That's an interesting technique for eliminating FOMO, knowing what you need in advance to get to where you want to go so you don't have to worry about shinier things.

Point 2 reminds me of Peter Thiel's power law: https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Thiel_on_power_law.

These are the big hindsight takeways I’ve seen as I’ve pivoted from web design/development towards information security.

1. For me it's hard to stay motivated learning a new technical topic if I can't connect it to some plausible future where my life would benefit from the knowledge. If I’m not addressing any pain points then the drive to study just won't be there.

2. Realize that there’s going to be an overwhelming amount of resources and tactics you can use to learn the topic. But they’re all not created equal and some may get you to your desired destination faster than others. This is highly personal; not every method of learning works for everyone (ie: I dislike learning theory through videos and lectures, highly prefering technical books instead).

3. Find a group of people that's at least slightly above your knowledge level in the topic and learn through osmosis. While I was able to pick up the foundations of infosec on my own it wasn’t until I was learning with others, especially while preparing for certification exams, that I got to learn more of the intricacies of the topic. Learn with others that have a similar drive as you.

4. Set weekly goals and dates in the future that you really need to test your knowledge to see if you understand the material. Security certifications, while I was a bit rebelious against at first, served this purpose for me perfectly. I’d set weekly goals to learn material based on a courses' syllabus and every few months there was the ultimate test to show I actually grokked the topic, which huge burst of hedons along with it (if I passed, which has been a 3-exam streak for me so far).

Man, you just summed up my exact struggle as well.