The Surface Book 3 may give the XPS 7390 a run for the money for the high end enterprise users. My initial concerns will be heat, weight and build quality. XPS metal body feels great and is durable. I wonder how this will compare.
Heat has always been the problem with Surfaces, for whatever reason the firmware always has massive power/thermal management issues. When the firmware is working right the thermals and noise level are great (especially if you're using the dGPU in the keyboard base, because it spreads the heat across the whole machine), but it's so frequently not...
I use a Book 2 as daily driver but to be honest I would prefer the HP ZBook I had before. The Book is very unstable with multiple monitors, the docking station constantly runs out of USB resources, when I detach the tablet and reconnect the display settings get messed up and I spend ten minutes reconfiguring and overall it lacks speed compared to its configuration. Really not a good experience for a pricey high end laptop.
I've had the same experience, the thing eventually becomes a nightmare with display issues if you're using the dock, which I think most are. We also have had multiple people's Surface Book 2 batteries start to swell to the point that the lid is parabola when you close it. I've recently had a show-stopper charging issue too, which is very obnoxious when you're in the middle of work.
They've gone back to the 9XXX numbering scheme but those are the newest models. Ex: For the 13" line the 9300 is the newest iteration with above-screen camera replacement
I have a Book v1, and let me tell you, that thing is riddled with issues.
The hinge is the biggest thing. Because it connects over PCIe to the base, the Book is very sensitive after a decent amount of time. If I adjust the screen, the hinge disconnects and reconnects.
Also, if I unplug my headphones while it's sleeping in laptop mode (which I use 99% of the time), the audio cuts out and I have to restart the machine.
That's why I'm typing this on a Dell Latitude with the same 6300u that's inside the book and with a worse screen -- at least it generally works even if I had to re-uninstall Candy Crush...
Long term surface book user. Can confirm the hinge becomes absolute trash after a while, and MS will wash their hands of you after the warranty period. Doing anything to the lid will cause the PCIE bus to disconnect and freak the laptop out, sometimes repeatedly.
Microsoft appears to be pricing their hardware in line with Apple now? $1599 starting price for the Book? I get the quality and the features are up there but the price is unappealing.
the surface Go even starts at a reasonable $399 but then to add a dock is $250? The dock is is 62.5% the cost of the computer? That seems rather steep
I think with the docks it's a no-win situation, from what I can tell the surface docks contain a display adapter (maybe 2 now for the new one since it supports multiple displays?), a NIC, a USB hub, charging circuitry, and some other random stuff. The price of all that seems to add up. I originally assumed the video out on the surface dock was just passthrough but it's not, it has its own display hardware with its own quirks and you update the firmware on it to change the behavior in some cases.
In my experience a comparable USB-C dock of decent quality for my macbook is pretty expensive too, though certainly not surface dock level. I think this is just the situation we're in with how laptops and docks interact now. If more of the smarts were in the laptop than the dock the dock would probably be a lot cheaper, but that seems like it might drive up the price of the laptops.
The original Surface Dock supplies power, two USB ports, two mini-displayport plugs, a headphone jack, and an ethernet port. (I'm using one right now.) With my first gen Surface Book, I'm able to drive two external screens through the dock, or use the laptop screen plus one more. Haven't tried with a Surface Book 2 yet. The nice part is that it just reuses the charging port.
As far as docking stations go, it's a substantial step up from most docks. That new price tag is still pretty steep though.
The $999 Stand was a publicity stunt, to get people and outlets talking about Apple and maintain its apparent status as a "luxury brand" (which it's not, it's a consumer brand, albeit a slightly expensive one).
But if MSFT is going for the same thing with something that's actually meant to be useful like a dock, they're just being stupid. No one views MSFT as a luxury brand anyway.
You're paying for the r&d that does into creating these products. The Surface Book is full of custom parts, and you really don't expect it to cost the same as other OEM laptops.
It also goes without saying the Surface line are luxury items.
I think that’s always been Microsoft’s point of the Surface line. The PC market is flooded with cheap laptops, and Microsoft wanted something premium to compete against Apple.
Thats right. In this world, things sell on their technical specifications alone. I was so mistaken all along. I should have been taking my product advice from HN!
Microsoft is guilty too. I was pretty surprised when I saw a launcher for Candy Crush on a new computer. Go ahead and feature it in the store, but it doesn't belong in the menu of a new computer.
Also, they don't want to jeopardize their relationship with PC manufacturers that buy Windows, so they aren't going to make a modestly priced regular laptop that competes with their customers.
> Microsoft appears to be pricing their hardware in line with Apple now? $1599 starting price for the Book? I get the quality and the features are up there but the price is unappealing.
We'll have to see the detail of the configuration, but the original Surface Book had an entry price of 1500 (5 years ago), and it was a fairly anemic configuration (iGP, 128GB storage). The SB2 lowered the price to 1150 for a similarly anemic base configuration (no iGP and 128GB storage, and a Kaby Lake where the other models got Refresh).
The book's always been a pretty premium laptop.
> the surface Go even starts at a reasonable $399 but then to add a dock is $250? The dock is is 62.5% the cost of the computer? That seems rather steep
You do know that the Surface Go is a tablet right? The "keyboard" is the $130 Type Cover. Getting a dock just for that seems somewhat unlikely. As in, if you already have a dock for some other surface product you might use it with a Go, you're not going to buy a dock for a Go, that's insane.
The Surface Book was always a premium model and not a staple, compared to the Surface Laptop which was meant to address the lower part of the budget spectrum. The Surface Laptop is more comparable to the Macbook Air line on both features and price.
Also the dock was definitely designed for a workstation setup, which the Surface Go isn't. Surface Go support seems to be incidental. I have the gen 1 version of the dock and I use it at my desk to attach two screens and a keyboard and mouse.
I'd rather just focus on the 10% that is the detailed content, versus 90% hype, but to each their own. I don't need to be told for 3 hours that every minor feature is an Earth-shattering event.
Honestly this blog post is 90% gibberish. Skimming over it, I just see meaningless word salads like "navigat[ing] the current environment", "design[ing] a Surface for every person", and "stay[ing] connected to the people and content that matters".
Yeah I’m confused by what their marketing team did here. It’s a super text heavy page with a just a couple of pictures showing the products from far away. Odd way to announce a hardware lineup.
Actually, I like how Microsoft goes straight to the point and does an altogether announcement in one page without the hype and pompous animations and transitions from Apple and Google over a single product page.
They saved the whole showcase animations and marketing in the video and not spoiled it into their website.
Agreed. The "no-nonsense" press release is wonderful. I'm fatigued by the trend of whole-page scroll-to-animate "our new BrandTech3 delivers twice the Foo for <consumer segment>" announcements. Unless there's something /really new/, over-hyping of incremental changes makes the company seem desperate to find things to fill a presentation. And this is the polar opposite of the weak "vague, positive, brand values" ad campaigns Microsoft ran in its more confused days (the Surface "click" ads full of dancers in pastel colors come to mind). Those did little more than make Microsoft seem out of touch.
And really, which non-tech people are going to be looking at this? There's not enough regular consumer excitement about "the next big Surface accessory" to suggest anything but the store/product page needs to be flashy. They're much better off drawing general consumer interest via review channels, product placement, and quirk-bait "behind the scenes" videos or collaborations.
Really!? I wouldn't call this announcement "straight to the point" at all. It truly is quite the opposite.
First, I get that including a byline in such an announcement is meant to convey the fact that real people worked very hard on this, but I actually think that most people will see the full names and specific job titles as visual clutter.
Here's my summary of the announcement.
Paragraph 1: times are changing and I think we both know what we mean. Allow me to imply that Windows market share is growing faster than ever (data do not support this: https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide, https://www.statista.com/statistics/218089/global-market-sha...). Let's draw a false equivalency between OS and hardware while ribbing Apple for their butterfly keyboard fiasco, and also boast about offering "cameras and mics built in to connect us to the people who matter most," as if that somehow sets us apart.
Paragraph 2: again, times are changing, and you know what we mean. Here are the intentionally generic product names again, with no additional information whatsoever.
Paragraph 3: as a company, in this time of change, we want you to know that we're more willing than ever to sell to you. We boast about unleashing Microsoft Teams upon the world as though that's a good thing. Here are two tweets meticulously chosen and vetted by very highly skilled marketing and PR teams to further convey our desired brand messages.
Panos out. Over to you, Robin.
Paragraph 4: in case you forgot, we're announcing a family of new products today. They're designed to work for more than one purpose.
Paragraph 5: here's a bullet list of the same intentionally generic-sounding names again. We didn't want to overwhelm you with even a tiny bit of technical specifications at this point.
- Sorry, disgruntled Apple refugees considering a switch, we won't tell you yet what the "Surface Go" actually is. Just know that it "delivers incredible value" and is portable -- oh, and it's usable by people who belong to companies or families alike.
- Perhaps surprisingly, our newest laptop is also our best one.
- Before we go into any meaningful detail, it's more important for me to pass on the message from our brand teams that the headphones 2 -- sorry, the smoothly phrased Surface Headphones 2 -- and the Earbuds "complete your Surface experience." This article is going well.
- The Surface Dock 2 is a dock that works like a dock.
Paragraph 6: whatever the Surface Go is (a tablet?), it's got a 2:1 screen aspect ratio! Let's take a break from these byzantine tech specs to mention that several oddly specific organizations, about half of which you've probably never heard of, have "chosen Surface Go." More hints as to what it is: it has a compact design, touch screen, keyboard, LTE Advanced, and is compatible with "Pen."
Paragraph 7: [jarringly sudden dump of Surface Go 2 tech specs, pricing, and availability, but presented as prose instead of a more sensible table or bullet point format]
Paragraph 8: on to the Surface Book. It all started when we set a goal to build a competitive laptop. That laptop has since been used by users.
Paragraph 9: [another block of needlessly wordy and sometimes outright redundant tech specs, pricing, and availability]
Paragraph 10: We have it on good authority that people use headphones to focus. Ours are designed to fit human ears and deliver sound. We provide a head-spinning 13 levels of ambient noise control, because Bose and Apple provide a measly three, and I think we can all agree that 13 is greater than three.
I got to play with the 50" Surface Hub and it blew my mind. Even if a bit laggy and not altogether precise with gestures. 4K video, pressure sensitive drawing, handwriting recognition and indexing. Going back to a 15" screen felt strange afterwards. Very "Minority Report". I believe there is a large format 85" Surface due shortly ;)
I was really hoping that Microsoft would tweak the design of Surface Book 3 and change the hinge, this spec bump is a little underwhelming after all this wait
I got a Magic Keyboard for my iPad Pro 2018 and sent it back, now I'm thinking about selling the iPad to buy a Surface Go 2: kickstand included, WSL 2 when needed, keyboard with a function row.
My only worry is that the experience in tablet mode is gonna be subpar.
Things to consider when pricing the Go 2, upgrading from Windows S to Windows Pro and for make sure to get a drive bigger than 64gb. Windows isn't really a comfortable experience with so little storage space over the years.
Apologies for jumping in here, but hopefully parent will answer your question.
I have noticed that a lot of the reviews & comments about the new Magic Keyboard for iPad Pro are separated by size. People who have the 12.9 seem to be much happier (on the whole) than people who have the 11. I have the 12.9 and I love it. The keyboard is fully as large as a laptop keyboard and the trackpad is smaller than a MacBook's, but still very usable. The 11 users complain that many of the keys are too small and the track pad is just too teeny to use reasonably.
Obviously, physical input devices are very personal and have much to do with your hand size, your height, etc.
I will say that one downside is that the case is heavy. It makes the 12.9 fully as beefy as the 13 inch MacBook Pro. The upside is that the ease of pulling the iPad away from the case encourages using the iPad naked (when a keyboard isn't needed), which is so nice for lap browsing, comic reading, etc.
I consume content on my iPad and thought that having a keyboard would make me using it more productively. Turned out that the keyboard is not that great in my opinion (11", AZERTY, impossible to do a Ç in one second like I do everyday on a standard magic keyboard) and that the trackpad is a tiny bit too small for me.
The Surface Go makes a lot of compromises to provide a janky experience in both laptop and tablet mode, and I am here for it. There's an unbelievable amount of dorky coolness is being able to swap from Gvim in laptop mode to Slay the Spire in tablet mode.
The biggest issue with touch on the Surface Go 2 is that Microsoft is dropping support for classic Edge in the near future, and no other Windows browser feels quite as snappy on low end devices or as good on a touch screen yet.
Interested to try the new Surface Go - we brought one of the original ones as a test device and was quite disappointed. The performance, especially for web browsing, is far behind that of cheaper Chromebooks, even though it had more powerful hardware.
Agree with the other reply 100%. If you payed for the upgraded Surface Go, it works excellently, and runs pretty well when you break out of Windows S mode.
I use it for travel and more portable uses. I specifically use it to read via screenreader (Kurzweil 3000--works best on Windows), when I need something more portable. I even got one for my mom for Mother's Day last year and she uses it as her primary Windows laptop.
It is better than spending $180 for the cheapest Windows laptop that you can get, due to the tablet form factor, durability, and portability. Sure, the battery is not replaceable but this is livable.
You are claiming AirPods are a status symbol, and you’re claiming everyone has them. Which is a contradiction.
They are not a status symbols. I see people working at fast food restaurants, in college, and other lower paid occupations with them. I also see them with iPhones and MacBooks and apple watches. But these devices aren’t that expensive.
I don’t see them and think “this person must have access to a lot of credit or be related to someone rich”. That might be reserved for having a nice home in an expensive neighborhood.
And in my experience, the utility and longevity derived from most Apple products far outweighed the extra few hundred dollars spent initially, so the amortized cost is much lower. I type this from an iPhone 6 bought in 2014, which at the time was the most expensive phone. But I didn’t buy it to be a status symbol.
Yes, they are a status symbol, just like the "blue bubble" v "green bubble" on SMS on iPhone. Blue bubbles mean the person has an iPhone, green bubbles mean the person doesn't have an iPhone. Do you honestly think Apple did that not knowing it would become a status symbol?
They might have intended that, but I still don't see the status in being able to afford a $400 phone. The vast majority of Americans can afford that, and obviously do based on how many iPhones I see. The cashier at target uses an iPhone, the lawyers I see use iPhone, the programmers use iPhones, the housekeepers who don't speak English at a hotel I see use iPhones. What is the status?
To me, the blue bubble means it's not using inferior MMS protocols which may or may not get the message to the recipient. I prefer using iMessage/Signal/Whatsapp.
Oh, AirPods are status symbols, all right. Not exclusively, of course (I mean, they work, and pretty well at that), but they signal that the wearer belongs to the in-group of the young, hip, and cool.
Based on my experiences, it would not signal that. I've seen people of many different backgrounds wearing them. Maybe more young than old, but that' just a general trend with technology. I wouldn't say if I saw someone wearing them they were "hip" or "cool".
I don't really know how else to illustrate that fact. Maybe there are peer-reviewed sociological or ethnographic studies out there that will specifically state this fact, but I haven't found any. But the world exists outside of the contents of peer-reviewed science.
Shame on the Surface Book 3 using Intel, after seeing what the new Ryzen 4800 looks like I don't think anyone serious about performance would be looking at Intel.
At least it's ice lake (10nm). From what Anandtech has said previously, it's got good graphics and AVX512....but other than that it's not faster than the 14nm processors because Intel still can't push the frequency as high.
Here are some benchmarks. Intel can mostly keep up with AMD. It's not great though...multicore AMD is pulling ahead by quite a lot.
This hardware is a good choice for people in Windows Eco-system.
But for people on MacOS or Linux these prices doesn't make sense given they can get better bang for bucks. Also based on previous experience with Surface Book and Surface Pro will not touch microsoft hardware or software (except for testing cross-platform application).
Indeed haven't used Windows extensively for quite sometime since Windows 7. Still using a Macbook Pro bought in 2014, but do not use Surface book bought few years later as it's not as usable and nice condition compared to Macbook Pro, which is still chugging along very nicely.
Can you name better hardware for people in the Linux ecosystem that all work together well?
The appeal of all of these products is that all of the Apple stuff works flawlessly together and all of the Windows stuff works flawlessly together. I personally have a hell of a time just getting bluetooth to work on my Linux thinkpad so definitely open to suggestions.
Dell xps developer edition or thinkpad preinstalled with linux? Have someone else spend the time to get it to work just like you would with windows or macOS.
> all of the Windows stuff works flawlessly together.
Did you mean all surface stuff? What is it supposed to work together with? Headphones better work with everything and the pen and dial are kinda neat but don't scream "ecosystem".
Another soul! I’m in the exact same boat and after this release, I just might jump on the surface book wagon. Sleek looking, great battery, WSL first class citizen. I just want a good touchpad, the damn fans to stop spinning randomly, bluetooth pairing to work and good battery life without tweaking TLP for few days.
Thanks for that, the Mechanics videos you linked to which deep dive into the machines functionality and hardware are great and what Microsoft really should've included in their blog post.
Those earbuds look like they'd fit worse than Apple's. I wonder if I have funny shaped ears, but nothing fits right. Those Pixel Buds look like things that would fit with the way they have those hooks or whatever they're called. It must be really hard to design these things to fit a wide range of ears.
Have you tried IEMs? I have ears where regular earbuds don't fit well too, Apple's are incredibly uncomfortable for me. But IEMs like the Shure SE215 fit really well and I barely notice them. The Meelectronics X6 works great for a pair of cheap Bluetooth gym headphones too.
1. At first I resented AirPods for not sealing out background noise, or fitting securely. But then I realized its a feature and not a bug. You can be in a private space while not fully disconnected from the public space. Just another tool in the arsenal
2. People have mentioned IEMs. If you feel discomfort from most headphones, you can get custom ear molds made for IEMs. In the US, this is generally a co-pay to an audiologist for a visit, around $50 for the audiologist to make the impressions, and around $100 for the custom plugs. IEM technology has not changed drastically, so you can buy used or older models. A 10 year old triple driver IEM will likely sound better than any non-IEM option. Make sure your IEM choice has detachable cables, as life happens. Plus, you can then use something like the FiiO UTWS1 to turn your IEMs into a more modern experience. There will be a downgrade in quality but it will be worth it for convenience.
3. Microsoft likely made a mistake with the size of these buds. They look like gauges that people put into their ears. This will either be a failure, or in the modern world of branding, an unlikely success.
FWIW, FiiO has cheap IEMs that are pretty good. For under $200 you can get a pair with 3 drivers in each ear (F9 Pro), and the aforementioned bluetooth “true wireless” adapter. Add another $200 and you have custom ear molds.
...Featuring an ultra-comfortable and stable fit, Surface Earbuds offer intuitive touch controls so you can start a phone call or change the song without taking out your phone....Screen-free integration with Microsoft 365 lets you catch up on emails with Play My Emails in the Outlook Mobile App for iOS or allow you to dictate in Word, Outlook or PowerPoint. -- Woooah. I can listen to Powerpoint decks! TAKE MY MONEY!
It’s disappointing that the SB3 seems to have the same screen and trackpad as the SB2. The screen has so much glare compared to the MBP and XPS, it makes dark mode unusable in most lighting situations. The trackpad is small and mediocre, it can’t reliably pick up two-finger right clicks. It’s a shame because I think the hardware is otherwise great.
I have a Surface Pro 7, their oversized tablet, after ditching my ipad pro out of frustration. I wanted something that had a nice pen but still had a real filesystem and I could easily load comics and movies on, use ssh, and was full featured enough that I wasn't required to lug a laptop with me.
And the surface pro is.. fine. Hardware wise it's great even, but my issue is overwhelmingly that Microsoft's default software makes a sad tablet experience. Their screen keyboards are garbage, the store is lackluster and the tablet mode does not play nicely with most apps leading to weird issues like not being able to leave the kindle app once it's fullscreened.
If Microsoft invested a bit more in improving the tablet experience, they could really eat some of Apple's marketshare.
Interesting. I had the exact opposite issue, I was tired of the buggy and laggy features. I just needed something for media consumption with ssh for my pi's. Ipad has been working flawlessly, but all my other devices are windows/androids so the lack of compatibility is a pain at time.
If the iPad let me stick in a usb drive and copy over comics, and load open source software from outside the Apple store - yes. Since that will never happen in our lifetime, probably not.
For what it's worth, the iPad feels great in terms of size and construction, it has a fantastic screen and the overall UX/UI is pleasant. Unfortunately, it's not usable as a short term laptop replacement and basic computer tasks are just not possible, especially not offline.
For what it's worth, you might be able to copy over comics using a USB drive now. You can definitely copy comics over a network share as an alternative, as the Files app supports mounting samba shares.
EDIT: of course that doesn't help with the loading of open source software on the device.
You can also compile your own open source software from outside the Apple App Store, there are some limitations to long-term use that might require a $99/year developer account, but it’s still possible. And the $99/year is not per user but per company, so if you know somebody with a dev account, you can split it with them by starting a company instead.
Not to say that the iPad Pro is a Windows tablet replacement, to me they’re still very much distinct products right now. iPad OS isn’t (yet?) a macOS replacement for developers and power users.
I haven't tried using USB drives with the iPad, but they have been building out the Files app and there are more ways to work with external storage than before.
Loading software from outside the App Store is not going to happen, but they are, slowly but surely, expanding to support other tasks.
You can do both. For OSS software though, it would need to be iPadOS apps built with Xcode or some cross-platform framework like Xamarin, but some time ago, Apple enabled anyone to install apps without a developer account.
This. The Surface Pro is a really decent machine and I don't have any complaints on how it functions as a laptop and 'workstation' (or whatever you call laptop+2 monitors+mouse+keyboard), but as far as tablet goes: the hardware is all there but the software is not quite there yet. The only tablet-y thing I do with it is tell it to never switch to tablet mode and then use the pen to draw and take notes. It does that really well btw (was one of the reasons I got it in the first place), but for the rest I don't see me using it as I'd use a 'standard' tablet. Not sure if it's me, I don't use tablest often, but when I try to do so on this thing I end up opening the desktop software anyway to get things done because the alternatives are non-existing or not good. And navigating typical desktop software with just touch isn't really cutting it.
One of the problems with MS' approach is trying to get a "one UI fits all" approach which just doesn't work, the usecases between tablet and desktop are too different.
Even Apple hasn't made this mistake and they're all about simplicity and consistency.
Yes, it’s all the more galling that they ruined the desktop experience without providing a good tablet experience. Yes, things are bigger and more tappable, but there’s more to a good tablet UX than that. They have only done the relatively easy part. The hard part requires redesigning behavior and workflow, which will take far more time and effort than just adding some whitespace and increasing widget size.
Windows 8 was all about redesigning behavior and workflow, those were the aspects that were largely walked back in successive updates.
I was a big fan of Win8 (was fine with it on desktop as well) but tablet mode on Win10 was a major downgrade and I only ever use Surface in desktop mode, even on the rare occasions I tuck back or detach the keyboard. I still use touch a lot though, sometimes simultaneously with mouse or trackpad.
First, you should not be using the store. It is an also-run of an anti-feature. Just ignore it for the bloatware it is.
Second, ignore tablet mode. It's one of those things developed by underfunded teams. Just use it as what it is, a portable PC. If you configure windows to have >2px thick borders you will not miss 'tablet mode' or whatever it is. Just enable all settings on the quick side bar thingy to toggle auto-rotate and you are set.
And finally, i agree with you on the keyboard. It's sad :( pen writing recognition was supposed to be the saving grace, but it only works minimally OK for japanese and chinese. No hope for english and let alone for other latin languages. and even using with chinese text, the input UI completely kills your ability to use things you would have on a keyboard like shift, shortcuts, arrows, etc.
For all the deserved hate Windows 8 got, the tablet experience was fantastic - the experience of running multiple apps side-by-side in particular was better than what the iPad has to this day.
It's mindboggling to me that Microsoft must have the code for that sitting around in a repo history somewhere and yet tablet mode on Windows 10 is still such a mess even after years.
The problem was ramming it down the throat of all the desktop users too. I still don't understand how such a big company can make such obviously bad decisions.
But it wasn't a terrible desktop experience: in 8.1 you had a strongly tiling window manager and a lot of apps designed for phone widths or smaller to tile. The tiling was horizontal only, but you could do a lot on a two widescreen monitor setup.
It moved a lot of cheese, sure, but it wasn't offering as much an "inferior" desktop usage as people seemed to think it did because they never bothered to learn what it did offer new/different/better.
“Apple’s Files app solves mostly solves that for me.“
It’s better but it’s still riddled with arbitrary restrictions. For example when I want to watch a MKV video in iCloud I have to copy the file from iCloud to the folder of the player, then delete. Can’t open iCloud files directly with the player and can’t move either.
On the bright side I am confident by 2025 in iOS we will have the same functionality we had already thirty years ago... with the exception that every piece of software will be charged with the 30% Apple tax.
It works but it’s quite clunky. Either you have to copy over when you play directly the video it’s not in the library. Definitely not very intuitive or simple.
I think I have the 6 as well... the keyboard connection to the tablet is not rigid, meaning you need something to support the tablet itself (like the kickstand)... but using the kickstand on your lap is not very convenient, because it does not hold the keyboard at a fixed angle to the computer... and you have to move it up your legs far enough to have the kickstand extend back and still have room on your legs. You can't have the screen be at your knees.
Also, you are limited in the angle you can have the screen. With a normal laptop, you can open the hinge very wide (like 150 degrees or so) so that you are looking directly at the screen when looking down at your lap. With the non-rigid keyboard, you have to have it fairly close to perpendicular (close to 90 degrees) which means you are looking at a bad angle to the screen when it is on your lap.
It might be worth revisiting the Windows 8 interface. It was maligned at the time but it’sa very fluent, intuitive interface now that people are used to iPads. The multitasking is exactly the same as iPad now, only difference being you pull down to close apps instead of up.
I pulled out my original Surface RT yesterday and was surprised to find it has aged incredibly well - perhaps better in 2020 than it was in 2012, because it was well ahead of its time.
The Surface RT was a crappy, closed device. You can put Linux on just about any Baytrail- or Cherrytrail-based device now (used to be a huge pain), and with a decent amount of RAM and GNOME3 on Wayland it's actually a very intuitive and productive tablet experience. Even the windowing UI is just as intuitive as Windows 8 if not more so: you click on an "Activities" overview as opposed to a start button, but the rest is pretty much the same.
Tegra has a good focus on graphics, so it's no surprise that it could do 60fps animations on the Windows 8 start screen. Nice eyecandy, I suppose. And 2GB RAM will still run pretty much anything a Surface RT user might care about, except the modern web of course.
It's not like I did any market research, but I recall people liking the Windows 8 interface on phones and tablets. My personal impression from playing with Windows phones in stores was very good. Opinions were (predictably, IMO) less positive for the same interface on desktops and laptops.
I definitely fell in the latter camp. Working helpdesk there were a couple "Help my Windows 8 PC is in this weird setting and I can't get to my programs" tickets. I don't recall it being as easy as it should have been to get out either.
I heard someone complaining the other day that every iOS application has the Share button in a different place and sometimes a different icon altogether, and poured another one out for the poor, misunderstood Charms bar.
Windows 8 had so many great ideas and it is an open question if Microsoft had stuck to their guns a little longer and waited for more people to get used to where their cheese moved if Windows 8 might be even more fondly remembered for moving touch UIs forward.
Microsoft scaled back a lot of their tablet functionality because consumers didn't like it, and of course Apple started to copy Microsoft's tablet functionality shortly thereafter. I think maybe, Windows X will be more touch based instead of them trying to meld them into one OS. Only the core will be the same, but the UIs will be split on the OS level. I think...but who knows, Microsoft often changes directions. All I know is that the Surface hardware is on par, and in many cases better than Apple.
> something as trivial as adjusting the display brightness required me to go into Windows settings.
I've never had a Surface Book but I had the Surface Pro 3 for awhile and I'm pretty sure it predated the book.
On the Surface Pro you just slide from off screen to bring up quick settings and then tap the brightness icon. Granted it only had preset values rather than a slider...
It's had a brightness slider for a long time now. And if you have a Surface, Fn+Delete and Fn+Backspace are hidden shortcuts to Brightness Up and Down.
Have you tried the WordFlow (swype or whatever it's called on other platforms) method on the keyboard ? Seems to work as well as Windows Phone did, which is pretty damn good.
It's fine as a portable Windows PC to me. Great for travel, does pretty much everything I need, including Visual Studio. iPads are so much more consumption oriented that I can't see myself every needing one in addition to an iPhone.
>If Microsoft invested a bit more in improving the tablet experience, they could really eat some of Apple's marketshare.
They did with WinRT (not the tablet the API, now called UWP) and it failed because they decided to throw away backward compatibility of APIs.
Windows 8 and the Metro design language was my favorite UX by far of the last two decades.
This time, I guess they've decided to throw away the user experience in favor of backward compatibility :-)
Swiping seems to be efficient mostly in english. I had a try on android and it was just exhausting while being unforgiving for CJK type input.
Just to say, having a decent keyboard is still important to a lot of people. And Apple has effectively made efforts in this regard to have a good keyboard experience on the iPad.
I have very little experience with iPads, but I absolutely hate the iPhone keyboard compared to Windows Phone/Mobile. Windows 10 is unfortunately not in the same league as its mobile predecessors.
Haven't used the Windows 10 on-screen keyboard much to be fair. I usually use the Surface keyboard (which has improved a lot circa 2017), but for prolonged work I'll attach a USB keyboard (mostly because I need an ergonomic keyboard to type).
I have an original surface pro I inherited, it works fine except for the garbage keyboard/cover. Well, it did work fine until some recent firmware update made it so the wifi crashes any router it connects to... It's really a beautiful bug.
This only seems to effect windows, I've been using it with OpenSuse with no such issue.
I pretty consistently hear that the iPad makes a great tablet and a shitty laptop and vice-versa for the Surface. I’m not sure it’s possible to have the best touch experience and the best keyboard and mouse experience in a single OS. Maybe Apple will let the iPad dual boot iPadOS and macOS someday soon assuming the MacBooks transition to ARM.
> Maybe Apple will let the iPad dual boot iPadOS and macOS someday soon assuming the MacBooks transition to ARM.
That would be excellent. iPad needs a local web server capability for development, e.g. to run Jekyll/Ruby or Hugo/golang. Rumor is that upcoming Apple Arm CPU will support hardware virtualization, which could theoretically enable Linux to run in a sandboxed VM.
As for UX, the new iPad Magic Keyboard is a game changer that seamlessly blends tablet and laptop. Now we need to address the iOS gaps (e.g. Xcode, non-Safari browser and mail client) and/or allow dual-boot as you suggested.
On Pythonista you can run Flask or Django, it's nifty. The apps are coming, there's one for nodejs and react. Would not be surprised to see ruby/go soon.
People really want a GUIs that are much more dynamic and context-aware. The size of the buttons should change if I attach a mouse or a touchpad. The on-screen-keyboard should completely disable itself if I attach a keyboard. (Did Windows figure this out yet?) If I walk into a dark room, apps (and ideally, websites) should change to dark mode. If I walk into an area with direct sunlight, the contrast should be boosted. The device should behave differently if it's laying flat on a desk, or on a kickstand, or if I'm holding it in my hands.
Cell phones are better. They've figured out obvious things like screen rotation, adaptive brightness, bluetooth audio handoffs, and Android has made some headway with things like darkmode and automatically changing settings when you get into a car, but tablets have lagged behind, and I'm sure there are dozens more tiny things that automatically changed based on the device's context.
I've put Arch Linux with GNOME on my SP7 and it's been great. There are a few tweaks I needed to make, but nothing too drastic and I really think the hardware is word-class, I love the tablet form-factor, but iPad OS is way too limiting. SP solves that, so I hope MS will keep making them.
The pen doesn't currently work, I have an older iPad Pro for when I need pen input so not a big issue for me.
I primarily like it for the form-factor & build quality, which in my opinion matches Apple level, but I seldom use it as a "tablet". It's more a super-portable laptop for me that can also serve as a convenient way to kick back and consume content.
I, weirdly enough, also like the type cover over standard laptop keyboards. Maybe it's because it's not part of the tablet itself that I find the keys less stiff and as a result more comfortable than on most laptops.
I made a similar decision when the increasing bloat of the web made my 3rd gen iPad inadequate. I considered the new iPad Pro, but decided on a Surface Pro 4 instead. Except for me it wasn't a real filesystem I wanted. It was a virtual memory system that didn't make programs discard data when multitasking.
On the iPad, opening a couple more browser tabs and then coming back to the original tab might cause the page on the original tab to reload. This could be very frustrating on sites like HN or Reddit. I might start typing a comment, and in the middle of that need to look up some things to fact check myself or get some references. Do that, go back to the comment--and the damn page reloads, wiping out what I'd typed so far.
Anticipating this, I could "select all" on my comment and copy it, then go do the research, and then come back. If the page reloads then I could just paste the comment back. If I needed to copy and paste something from the other page it was usually safe to do at that point. Just switching between two already loaded pages usually would not trigger a reload.
I never ran into anything like that on SP4. I could pause writing an HN comment and research in other tabs as much as I wanted, and never had the partial comment gone when I switched back.
I don't know if this is because Windows will use a pagefile and/or swapfile when there is not enough physical RAM for everything, or because the SP4 had 16 times as much RAM as my 3rd gen iPad so I simply never got it low enough on RAM, but for whatever the reason browsing worked a lot better the SP4.
Since then I also got a 6th gen iPad (not Pro). It's much better than my old 3rd gen was about this, but still does occasionally force a refresh when witching among tabs.
Current mobile OS's (iOS and Android) do run without a pagefile, in order to cope with the crappiness of inbuilt eMMC storage which would quickly wear out as the pagefile got rewritten. Theoretically, well-behaved applications are supposed to checkpoint their own internal state when signaled by the OS to do so, since this ought to be more space-efficient than the use of a pagefile; in practice, almost no applications actually do this properly.
For what it's worth, Linux is a lot more parsimonious in its use of swap space than Windows, given very similar hardware and use cases.
Of course, modern iPhones and iPads actually come with fully fledged NVMe SSDs. So it's not really clear why that decision hasn't been revisited - or why Apple hasn't at least introduced some kind of process hibernation which fully restores background processes when switching back.
> had a real filesystem and I could easily load comics and movies on
Apps might not expose the iPadOS filesystem well (since they've gradually accreted a UX paradigm over the last 10 filesystem-less years), but it actually does work perfectly well to open files from your iPadOS home directory [the thing the Files app exposes] in any app that can handle that file type. You can open video files from Files into VLC; you can open CBRs/CBZs into https://chunkyreader.com/ ; etc.
For getting the files in/out of the iPad, Files can access external disks just fine (I've been using a Samsung USB-C T5 SSD); and Safari (don't know about other browsers) now allows you to save arbitrary files, putting your downloads in a regular Downloads folder within the Files-visible homedir. I'm sure there are other methods as well (e.g. copying files to the iPad's local storage from a storage provider, e.g. iCloud Drive, or Dropbox, or an SFTP/S3 client's host profile; or using a BitTorrent client to download whatever.)
Of course, apps can't access your homedir arbitrarily if they don't have the relevant capability, but that's just good sandboxing—if an app only works with particular files, it should only be receiving capabilities on individual files (through e.g. the Share/Open With action), not capabilities on your filesystem as a whole. The only reason desktop OSes aren't already mostly this way is the inertia of legacy apps.
(There's also nothing stopping a local POSIX terminal emulator app from creating a shared container that other apps like IDEs can write into, if you're wondering. Nobody's bothered yet, but that's because everyone wants to own your eyeballs with fully-integrated single-app solutions, not because it's not technically possible. You could totally build the equivalent of Termux for iPadOS. The only limitation would be that the package ecosystem would have to use the App Store as its package manager, with packages containing executables being distributed as Apple-signed extension "apps." Sort of like how iMessage's sticker-pack "apps" work, or how Photos.app's filter-pack "apps" work; or how Safari's content-blocker "apps" work. Or, come to think of it, exactly like how XCode.app attaches its POSIX tooling into the [read-only] macOS rootfs.)
In some of the fullscreen apps like the Kindle app, the Close icon is hidden behind a swipe gesture. Swiping up/down at the very top of the screen makes the top toolbar appear, usually either as a full title bar or a small gesture bar that can be activated with a swipe.
I share the same feeling, even though didn't own an iPad before (I knew I needed something with less limitations). The new tablet mode they did is better (https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2019/08/29/annou...), however the biggest deal breaker for me _is_ the on-screen keyboard. Try using Slack in tablet mode, it's impossible: every time you go to a channel, the on screen keyboard pops-up, the animation to open/close takes 2-3 seconds each time: it's frustrating to the point I just plug the keyboard back on and use the surface in laptop mode.
The thing that always bothered me about the Surface Go was that it didn’t feel like a cohesive device. More like a tablet with accessories. The way the fin awkwardly sticks out of the back is an admission that it can’t stand on its own because it’s a tablet, and the keyboard has an odd angle that makes it look unstable, like typing on a piece of cardboard. When I see it, I just see compromises, like a tablet trying its best to make it in a world where sometimes you need a laptop.
> By "fin" you mean... the stand? So, the stand means that it doesn't stand on its own? What?
Yeah. It needs the stand because it doesn’t support itself with the keyboard (like a laptop). It just doesn’t seem very lap friendly. Previous to the iPad Pro keyboard I didn’t find any solution to this problem tablets that didn’t involve some ugly clamps.
I haven’t tried it, so I am interested in others’ experience with it, since it’s an interesting design.
> It needs the stand because it doesn’t support itself with the keyboard (like a laptop).
Yeah it's primarily a tablet form factor and doesn't come with a keyboard. But that makes it a tablet that stands on its own with the built-in stand. Then, plug in one USB-C cable and it's a full computer with access to all my peripherals that can drive my 3840x1600 monitor. Add the keyboard cover (which is fantastic for how thin it is, the trackpad works well, etc.) and it becomes a laptop.
There are lots of problems with the Go. It's slow! Battery life is mediocre. Windows itself is a mess. Because it's a tablet that's a full computer, it's bulkier than an ipad. But it's such a neat little device.
One more thing that stands out about the Go... This falls under Windows being a mess, but I want to second what someone else in the thread called out: the software keyboard is just frickin' terrible. "No one on the team must actually use this at home" bad.
The Surface Go 2 looks interesting but I'm too deeply invested in macOS, unfortunately. I wish Apple offered something similar (i.e. a real computer, not a tablet). I really liked the MacBook Air 11" and regret that I sold it years ago.
That has been discontinued last year. Do you have a link regarding the supposed update?
Edit: I found some rumors that claim that Apple might revive the 12" MacBook in 2020. I hope they actually do but can't really see it happening as it might cannibalize their iPad sales.
Serious question: why is fanlessness the defining criterion for you? Is it the noise? Or the impression that having a fan is a sign of poor thermal design somehow?
Yes, primarily the noise. (Also the lack of dust, and the space/weight saved by not having a fan.) I have a fanless Streacom DB4 case for my desktop. I don’t plan on ever owning a PC with a fan again.
Is it weird I'm absolutely excited over the new desktop bundle for the erognomic keyboard and mouse? I have absolutely come to love the Microsoft erognomic keyboard and mouse set, so I look forward to snapping it up so that I can replace my much much older version of those products.
When it comes to those two accessories, for me at least, I think they're such a great value for such a low price!
Is it weird I'm absolutely excited over the new desktop bundle for the erognomic keyboard and mouse?
I don't know if weird is the word. Some people just are really into this sort of thing. Like when the hard-core Apple fans lost their coolant when the black keyboard and mouse came out.
I think it's normal because these are things we interact with physically every day. We become attached to real, tangible things. It's part of why keychains, mobile phones, and jewelry are so personal to us.
Is the new mouse still used with the palm facing down? What specifically makes it ergonomic?
I'm looking to stave off some looming wrist RSI, and have latched onto the idea that a vertical mouse (Evoluent, Anker, and Logitech are probably the most popular manufacturers) is the best solution short of switching to a different device type, like a trackball.
I've got the Logitech vertical mouse and it's the best thing I've done for my wrists lately. Highly recommended. Also got the Logitech ergo keyboard and that has been great as well.
FWIW, I didn't find switching to a trackball particularly difficult. I've got two CST trackballs - I use my office setup left-handed and my home setup right-handed to even out use between my limbs.
CST now bought-out/renamed to X-keys by P.I. Engineering.
Have you tried adjusting your workspace? I had serious RSI and started the mouse to trackpad to wacom dance to try and solve it but it turned out I was just shifting the real problem was just my chair was too low. Raised it and it resolved itself and haven't had an issue for close to 7 years now.
Have you tried exercising? Between reading Sarno's book and regular exercise / activity all pains everywhere are gone.
Everyone seems to immediately try to jump to some device that is going to fix all of their problems without actually taking care of themselves or changing their habits first.
Seriously, since we have been in lockdown for 2 months my wrists are much more sensitive. I did use the powerball for a bit but I don't have the patience for brainless exercise. I love walking in nature.
Since this started I've been doing 100 burpees a day to make up for never going anywhere. Takes less than 20 minutes. I hate repetitive exercise as well but I don't see it as optional.
I've maintained exercise throughout this WFH period, specifically chinups/pullups and pushups each 3x/week, and deliberate cardio (biking) 30-60 min also 3x/week. My hints of RSI are so far exclusively in my right wrist, so I have good reason to believe that a vertical mouse would help (or switching to mousing left-handed).
I know so many people that absolutely love the MS ergo keyboard, even worked at one shop that one was given to you on your first day because everybody used them and they assumed you would want one too.
For me, they actually caused rsi issues. Took a while to narrow it down to the ergo keyboard. Which is a shame, it's one of the few MS designs that I like.
I'd want the Sculpt (short-travel keyboard) in the split configuration though -- the split, wired seems to have big keys.
I'm not sure I understand people that want heavy mechanical keyboards, which for me feels like a throwback to touch typing classes on the IBM typewriter in 1988.
I think the battery story just barely got better with AMD CPUs. Intel's mobile CPUs (used to) do much better at keeping power usage low. IDK how the new 4000 series compares.
The perfect device for me : the Surface Pro X's hybrid tablet format, with no chip inside, as your smpartphone is the chip, that lets you use Android (for everyday tasks and some pro tasks) or a full GNU/Linux.
A poor version of this, but already worth using : Samsung Dex with a portable monitor, with UserLand or Andronix.
Portable monitors are way behind the Surface Pro X (e.g. for pencil management), Samsung doesn't invest enough money on Dex and UserLand / Andronix lack some features (a good VNC client seamlessly integrated / hardware acceleration)
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[ 3.9 ms ] story [ 285 ms ] threadI hope they get it right this time.
The hinge is the biggest thing. Because it connects over PCIe to the base, the Book is very sensitive after a decent amount of time. If I adjust the screen, the hinge disconnects and reconnects.
Also, if I unplug my headphones while it's sleeping in laptop mode (which I use 99% of the time), the audio cuts out and I have to restart the machine.
That's why I'm typing this on a Dell Latitude with the same 6300u that's inside the book and with a worse screen -- at least it generally works even if I had to re-uninstall Candy Crush...
Cute concept, garbage execution.
the surface Go even starts at a reasonable $399 but then to add a dock is $250? The dock is is 62.5% the cost of the computer? That seems rather steep
In my experience a comparable USB-C dock of decent quality for my macbook is pretty expensive too, though certainly not surface dock level. I think this is just the situation we're in with how laptops and docks interact now. If more of the smarts were in the laptop than the dock the dock would probably be a lot cheaper, but that seems like it might drive up the price of the laptops.
As far as docking stations go, it's a substantial step up from most docks. That new price tag is still pretty steep though.
But if MSFT is going for the same thing with something that's actually meant to be useful like a dock, they're just being stupid. No one views MSFT as a luxury brand anyway.
It also goes without saying the Surface line are luxury items.
I'm pretty happy with my Surface Book 2 as well, it's a pretty solid computer, with the only caveats being the repairability and non-upgradeability.
[0] https://www.reddit.com/r/Surface/comments/6lu0kg/lets_talk_a...
A LOT of PC manufacturers bundle a lot of crappy software with their laptops. MS hardware is just windows.
While the dock is compatible with the Go, I don't believe it is the expected to be used with the Go.
We'll have to see the detail of the configuration, but the original Surface Book had an entry price of 1500 (5 years ago), and it was a fairly anemic configuration (iGP, 128GB storage). The SB2 lowered the price to 1150 for a similarly anemic base configuration (no iGP and 128GB storage, and a Kaby Lake where the other models got Refresh).
The book's always been a pretty premium laptop.
> the surface Go even starts at a reasonable $399 but then to add a dock is $250? The dock is is 62.5% the cost of the computer? That seems rather steep
You do know that the Surface Go is a tablet right? The "keyboard" is the $130 Type Cover. Getting a dock just for that seems somewhat unlikely. As in, if you already have a dock for some other surface product you might use it with a Go, you're not going to buy a dock for a Go, that's insane.
Also the dock was definitely designed for a workstation setup, which the Surface Go isn't. Surface Go support seems to be incidental. I have the gen 1 version of the dock and I use it at my desk to attach two screens and a keyboard and mouse.
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-duo
4 new products in one blog post?
And the blog post is pretty plain at that.
Where's the sexy animations? The over the top presentation?
If you're going to try and fuck me to the tune of $1,600 for a laptop, at least take me to out to dinner first.
Microsoft could really stand to learn a few things from Google/Apple product presentation imho.
Whenever a new Sony/Bose/Apple product drops, the reviewers are all over it. No wonder the first Surface headphones flew under the radar so hard.
They saved the whole showcase animations and marketing in the video and not spoiled it into their website.
And really, which non-tech people are going to be looking at this? There's not enough regular consumer excitement about "the next big Surface accessory" to suggest anything but the store/product page needs to be flashy. They're much better off drawing general consumer interest via review channels, product placement, and quirk-bait "behind the scenes" videos or collaborations.
First, I get that including a byline in such an announcement is meant to convey the fact that real people worked very hard on this, but I actually think that most people will see the full names and specific job titles as visual clutter.
Here's my summary of the announcement.
Paragraph 1: times are changing and I think we both know what we mean. Allow me to imply that Windows market share is growing faster than ever (data do not support this: https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide, https://www.statista.com/statistics/218089/global-market-sha...). Let's draw a false equivalency between OS and hardware while ribbing Apple for their butterfly keyboard fiasco, and also boast about offering "cameras and mics built in to connect us to the people who matter most," as if that somehow sets us apart.
Paragraph 2: again, times are changing, and you know what we mean. Here are the intentionally generic product names again, with no additional information whatsoever.
Paragraph 3: as a company, in this time of change, we want you to know that we're more willing than ever to sell to you. We boast about unleashing Microsoft Teams upon the world as though that's a good thing. Here are two tweets meticulously chosen and vetted by very highly skilled marketing and PR teams to further convey our desired brand messages.
Panos out. Over to you, Robin.
Paragraph 4: in case you forgot, we're announcing a family of new products today. They're designed to work for more than one purpose.
Paragraph 5: here's a bullet list of the same intentionally generic-sounding names again. We didn't want to overwhelm you with even a tiny bit of technical specifications at this point.
- Sorry, disgruntled Apple refugees considering a switch, we won't tell you yet what the "Surface Go" actually is. Just know that it "delivers incredible value" and is portable -- oh, and it's usable by people who belong to companies or families alike.
- Perhaps surprisingly, our newest laptop is also our best one.
- Before we go into any meaningful detail, it's more important for me to pass on the message from our brand teams that the headphones 2 -- sorry, the smoothly phrased Surface Headphones 2 -- and the Earbuds "complete your Surface experience." This article is going well.
- The Surface Dock 2 is a dock that works like a dock.
Paragraph 6: whatever the Surface Go is (a tablet?), it's got a 2:1 screen aspect ratio! Let's take a break from these byzantine tech specs to mention that several oddly specific organizations, about half of which you've probably never heard of, have "chosen Surface Go." More hints as to what it is: it has a compact design, touch screen, keyboard, LTE Advanced, and is compatible with "Pen."
Paragraph 7: [jarringly sudden dump of Surface Go 2 tech specs, pricing, and availability, but presented as prose instead of a more sensible table or bullet point format]
Paragraph 8: on to the Surface Book. It all started when we set a goal to build a competitive laptop. That laptop has since been used by users.
Paragraph 9: [another block of needlessly wordy and sometimes outright redundant tech specs, pricing, and availability]
Paragraph 10: We have it on good authority that people use headphones to focus. Ours are designed to fit human ears and deliver sound. We provide a head-spinning 13 levels of ambient noise control, because Bose and Apple provide a measly three, and I think we can all agree that 13 is greater than three.
Paragraph 11: Earbuds, also designe...
My only worry is that the experience in tablet mode is gonna be subpar.
That was my experience with the Surface Go. The battery life was much worse than my ipad mini 2.
There are far less dedicated apps for Windows 10, so much of my tablet workflow involved using the web browser to access services.
For batter life alone, I returned the surface go, and bought and ipad pro.
That's, 27Wh [1] vs 26.12Wh [2] of the original.
Go figure.
[1] https://youtu.be/kVAa-I8s9V0?t=180
[2] https://surfacetip.com/how-much-surface-battery-capacity-in-...
I have a Surface Go and it's a great little machine for what it is but iPad Pro should be compared to the Surface X.
May I ask why?
I have noticed that a lot of the reviews & comments about the new Magic Keyboard for iPad Pro are separated by size. People who have the 12.9 seem to be much happier (on the whole) than people who have the 11. I have the 12.9 and I love it. The keyboard is fully as large as a laptop keyboard and the trackpad is smaller than a MacBook's, but still very usable. The 11 users complain that many of the keys are too small and the track pad is just too teeny to use reasonably.
Obviously, physical input devices are very personal and have much to do with your hand size, your height, etc.
I will say that one downside is that the case is heavy. It makes the 12.9 fully as beefy as the 13 inch MacBook Pro. The upside is that the ease of pulling the iPad away from the case encourages using the iPad naked (when a keyboard isn't needed), which is so nice for lap browsing, comic reading, etc.
From my experience it’s not just subpar. It’s basically very sad.
What didn’t you like about it? I have one and feel it’s a huge improvement and very worth the price I paid.
The biggest issue with touch on the Surface Go 2 is that Microsoft is dropping support for classic Edge in the near future, and no other Windows browser feels quite as snappy on low end devices or as good on a touch screen yet.
If you want a Chromebook, get a Chromebook.
I use it for travel and more portable uses. I specifically use it to read via screenreader (Kurzweil 3000--works best on Windows), when I need something more portable. I even got one for my mom for Mother's Day last year and she uses it as her primary Windows laptop.
It is better than spending $180 for the cheapest Windows laptop that you can get, due to the tablet form factor, durability, and portability. Sure, the battery is not replaceable but this is livable.
Personally, just using the new Edge and a few tabs on the high-end, 8G Surface Go 1, it still lags.
They are not a status symbols. I see people working at fast food restaurants, in college, and other lower paid occupations with them. I also see them with iPhones and MacBooks and apple watches. But these devices aren’t that expensive.
I don’t see them and think “this person must have access to a lot of credit or be related to someone rich”. That might be reserved for having a nice home in an expensive neighborhood.
And in my experience, the utility and longevity derived from most Apple products far outweighed the extra few hundred dollars spent initially, so the amortized cost is much lower. I type this from an iPhone 6 bought in 2014, which at the time was the most expensive phone. But I didn’t buy it to be a status symbol.
To me, the blue bubble means it's not using inferior MMS protocols which may or may not get the message to the recipient. I prefer using iMessage/Signal/Whatsapp.
Maybe this article will provide a starting point to shed light on the fact that AirPods have certainly become status symbols: https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-airpods-most-important...
I don't really know how else to illustrate that fact. Maybe there are peer-reviewed sociological or ethnographic studies out there that will specifically state this fact, but I haven't found any. But the world exists outside of the contents of peer-reviewed science.
Here are some benchmarks. Intel can mostly keep up with AMD. It's not great though...multicore AMD is pulling ahead by quite a lot.
https://www.anandtech.com/show/15762/the-acer-swift-3-sf314-...
But for people on MacOS or Linux these prices doesn't make sense given they can get better bang for bucks. Also based on previous experience with Surface Book and Surface Pro will not touch microsoft hardware or software (except for testing cross-platform application).
Indeed haven't used Windows extensively for quite sometime since Windows 7. Still using a Macbook Pro bought in 2014, but do not use Surface book bought few years later as it's not as usable and nice condition compared to Macbook Pro, which is still chugging along very nicely.
The appeal of all of these products is that all of the Apple stuff works flawlessly together and all of the Windows stuff works flawlessly together. I personally have a hell of a time just getting bluetooth to work on my Linux thinkpad so definitely open to suggestions.
> all of the Windows stuff works flawlessly together.
Did you mean all surface stuff? What is it supposed to work together with? Headphones better work with everything and the pen and dial are kinda neat but don't scream "ecosystem".
Like what? A nice high resolution 3:2 screen seems great and difficult to find anywhere else.
The drawbacks are the awful non-Windows compatibility (e.g. see reddits /r/surfacelinux) and the non-Wacom pen.
Introducing Surface Go 2, Surface Book 3, Surface Headphones 2 and Surface Earbuds
https://preview.redd.it/15gbamema5x41.jpg?width=1024&format=...
Official blog post: https://blogs.windows.com/devices/2020/05/06/introducing-sur...
Pre-orders for most products start today (May 6th), and some devices launch starting May 12.
---
Surface Go 2 - starting at $399
Release date: May 12, 2020 (US)
Product launch video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUw8jZl1hX0
Business product page - https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/business/surface-go-...
Microsoft Mechanics overview - https://youtu.be/kVAa-I8s9V0
---
Surface Book 3 - starting at $1599
Release date: May 21, 2020 (US)
Product launch video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYFnAnmwG5c
Business product page - https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/business/surface-boo...
Microsoft Mechanics overview - https://youtu.be/rGOQYX5etG8
---
Surface Earbuds - priced at $199.99
Release date: May 12, 2020 (US)
Pre-order page - https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/surface-earbuds/8r9cpq1460... (US)
Product launch video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMk7wnybXLM
---
Surface Headphones 2 - priced at $249.99
Release date: May 12, 2020 (US)
https://preview.redd.it/rv7uekkqf5x41.png?width=890&format=p...
---
Surface Dock 2 - priced at $259.99
Release date: Later this month in select markets
Microsoft Mechanics overview - https://youtu.be/qaCHITOuWPw
---
Surface USB-C Travel Hub - priced at $99.99
Release date: Later this month in select markets
https://preview.redd.it/0b3u3dpxd5x41.jpg?width=1440&format=...
---
Other new accessories:
Surface Go Sleeve - https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/surface-go-sleeve/8x1tzlkc...
Microsoft Ergonomic Desktop bundle - priced at $89.99
Microsoft Bluetooth Desktop bundle - priced at $59.99
Microsoft Mechanics YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJ9905MRHxwLZ2jeNQGIWxA
That's what U.S. air force discovered after WWII [1] (discussed on HN recently [2]). Also known as flaw of averages, curse of dimensionality, etc.
> There was no such thing as an average pilot. If you’ve designed a cockpit to fit the average pilot, you’ve actually designed it to fit no one.
[1] https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2016/01/16/when-us-air-...
[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22956832
FWIW, FiiO has cheap IEMs that are pretty good. For under $200 you can get a pair with 3 drivers in each ear (F9 Pro), and the aforementioned bluetooth “true wireless” adapter. Add another $200 and you have custom ear molds.
That's how you sell a Pro machine.
And the surface pro is.. fine. Hardware wise it's great even, but my issue is overwhelmingly that Microsoft's default software makes a sad tablet experience. Their screen keyboards are garbage, the store is lackluster and the tablet mode does not play nicely with most apps leading to weird issues like not being able to leave the kindle app once it's fullscreened.
If Microsoft invested a bit more in improving the tablet experience, they could really eat some of Apple's marketshare.
For what it's worth, the iPad feels great in terms of size and construction, it has a fantastic screen and the overall UX/UI is pleasant. Unfortunately, it's not usable as a short term laptop replacement and basic computer tasks are just not possible, especially not offline.
EDIT: of course that doesn't help with the loading of open source software on the device.
Not to say that the iPad Pro is a Windows tablet replacement, to me they’re still very much distinct products right now. iPad OS isn’t (yet?) a macOS replacement for developers and power users.
Loading software from outside the App Store is not going to happen, but they are, slowly but surely, expanding to support other tasks.
If that was non-negotiable why did you even consider an iPad Pro in the first place?
One of the problems with MS' approach is trying to get a "one UI fits all" approach which just doesn't work, the usecases between tablet and desktop are too different.
Even Apple hasn't made this mistake and they're all about simplicity and consistency.
I was a big fan of Win8 (was fine with it on desktop as well) but tablet mode on Win10 was a major downgrade and I only ever use Surface in desktop mode, even on the rare occasions I tuck back or detach the keyboard. I still use touch a lot though, sometimes simultaneously with mouse or trackpad.
While a surface is a production device. Since you can actually do something with it except sending emails.
Second, ignore tablet mode. It's one of those things developed by underfunded teams. Just use it as what it is, a portable PC. If you configure windows to have >2px thick borders you will not miss 'tablet mode' or whatever it is. Just enable all settings on the quick side bar thingy to toggle auto-rotate and you are set.
And finally, i agree with you on the keyboard. It's sad :( pen writing recognition was supposed to be the saving grace, but it only works minimally OK for japanese and chinese. No hope for english and let alone for other latin languages. and even using with chinese text, the input UI completely kills your ability to use things you would have on a keyboard like shift, shortcuts, arrows, etc.
It's mindboggling to me that Microsoft must have the code for that sitting around in a repo history somewhere and yet tablet mode on Windows 10 is still such a mess even after years.
It really is mind boggling that Microsoft fumbled that so bad - great tech but some really user-hostile business decisions cost them dearly.
The problem was ramming it down the throat of all the desktop users too. I still don't understand how such a big company can make such obviously bad decisions.
Simple, resume ego driven development from someone who just want to climb ranks.
It moved a lot of cheese, sure, but it wasn't offering as much an "inferior" desktop usage as people seemed to think it did because they never bothered to learn what it did offer new/different/better.
Apple’s Files app solves mostly solves that for me.
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/files/id1232058109
> use ssh
The Blink app solves that nicely for me.
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/blink-shell-mosh-ssh-client/id...
There are also several VNC viewer apps if I need to connect to my Linux workstation for more cpu or graphics intensive work.
The Microsoft stuff tries to live in both worlds, but the ecosystem around the "modern" side is weak.
Everyone is struggling with this stuff, as witnessed by the schitzoid steps to evolve MacOS and Windows.
It’s better but it’s still riddled with arbitrary restrictions. For example when I want to watch a MKV video in iCloud I have to copy the file from iCloud to the folder of the player, then delete. Can’t open iCloud files directly with the player and can’t move either.
On the bright side I am confident by 2025 in iOS we will have the same functionality we had already thirty years ago... with the exception that every piece of software will be charged with the 30% Apple tax.
That open the icloud browser (wierd name)
The tablet mode sucks for anything but basic reading. The touch interface is crappy, the on screen keyboard sucks.
It is a really good laptop... as long as I use it on a desk or table. The non-rigid keyboard makes using it without a desk impossible.
It is a nice, light, laptop for travel, though... but I still need to bring a tablet.
Can you elaborate? Which version? I've been using the Surface Pro 6 and I don't notice a difference with using it on a desk or on my lap.
Also, you are limited in the angle you can have the screen. With a normal laptop, you can open the hinge very wide (like 150 degrees or so) so that you are looking directly at the screen when looking down at your lap. With the non-rigid keyboard, you have to have it fairly close to perpendicular (close to 90 degrees) which means you are looking at a bad angle to the screen when it is on your lap.
I pulled out my original Surface RT yesterday and was surprised to find it has aged incredibly well - perhaps better in 2020 than it was in 2012, because it was well ahead of its time.
Surface RT was running underpowered Tegra with 2GB ram and still does 60fps on the entire desktop/Start experience.
Have you used the Windows 8 multitasking interface recently?
Windows 8 had so many great ideas and it is an open question if Microsoft had stuck to their guns a little longer and waited for more people to get used to where their cheese moved if Windows 8 might be even more fondly remembered for moving touch UIs forward.
The tablet experience on Windows was horrendous.
Eg: something as trivial as adjusting the display brightness required me to go into Windows settings.
I've never had a Surface Book but I had the Surface Pro 3 for awhile and I'm pretty sure it predated the book.
On the Surface Pro you just slide from off screen to bring up quick settings and then tap the brightness icon. Granted it only had preset values rather than a slider...
Yeah and that was always either too bright or too dark.
I'm glad they added the slider now.
older versions, you had to swipe right, then touch screen icon and slide: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFYmwnzRpJ0
Have you tried the WordFlow (swype or whatever it's called on other platforms) method on the keyboard ? Seems to work as well as Windows Phone did, which is pretty damn good.
It's fine as a portable Windows PC to me. Great for travel, does pretty much everything I need, including Visual Studio. iPads are so much more consumption oriented that I can't see myself every needing one in addition to an iPhone.
>If Microsoft invested a bit more in improving the tablet experience, they could really eat some of Apple's marketshare.
They did with WinRT (not the tablet the API, now called UWP) and it failed because they decided to throw away backward compatibility of APIs.
Windows 8 and the Metro design language was my favorite UX by far of the last two decades.
This time, I guess they've decided to throw away the user experience in favor of backward compatibility :-)
Swiping seems to be efficient mostly in english. I had a try on android and it was just exhausting while being unforgiving for CJK type input.
Just to say, having a decent keyboard is still important to a lot of people. And Apple has effectively made efforts in this regard to have a good keyboard experience on the iPad.
Haven't used the Windows 10 on-screen keyboard much to be fair. I usually use the Surface keyboard (which has improved a lot circa 2017), but for prolonged work I'll attach a USB keyboard (mostly because I need an ergonomic keyboard to type).
This only seems to effect windows, I've been using it with OpenSuse with no such issue.
That would be excellent. iPad needs a local web server capability for development, e.g. to run Jekyll/Ruby or Hugo/golang. Rumor is that upcoming Apple Arm CPU will support hardware virtualization, which could theoretically enable Linux to run in a sandboxed VM.
As for UX, the new iPad Magic Keyboard is a game changer that seamlessly blends tablet and laptop. Now we need to address the iOS gaps (e.g. Xcode, non-Safari browser and mail client) and/or allow dual-boot as you suggested.
Cell phones are better. They've figured out obvious things like screen rotation, adaptive brightness, bluetooth audio handoffs, and Android has made some headway with things like darkmode and automatically changing settings when you get into a car, but tablets have lagged behind, and I'm sure there are dozens more tiny things that automatically changed based on the device's context.
This always works fine for me on my SP6.
I primarily like it for the form-factor & build quality, which in my opinion matches Apple level, but I seldom use it as a "tablet". It's more a super-portable laptop for me that can also serve as a convenient way to kick back and consume content.
I, weirdly enough, also like the type cover over standard laptop keyboards. Maybe it's because it's not part of the tablet itself that I find the keys less stiff and as a result more comfortable than on most laptops.
On the iPad, opening a couple more browser tabs and then coming back to the original tab might cause the page on the original tab to reload. This could be very frustrating on sites like HN or Reddit. I might start typing a comment, and in the middle of that need to look up some things to fact check myself or get some references. Do that, go back to the comment--and the damn page reloads, wiping out what I'd typed so far.
Anticipating this, I could "select all" on my comment and copy it, then go do the research, and then come back. If the page reloads then I could just paste the comment back. If I needed to copy and paste something from the other page it was usually safe to do at that point. Just switching between two already loaded pages usually would not trigger a reload.
I never ran into anything like that on SP4. I could pause writing an HN comment and research in other tabs as much as I wanted, and never had the partial comment gone when I switched back.
I don't know if this is because Windows will use a pagefile and/or swapfile when there is not enough physical RAM for everything, or because the SP4 had 16 times as much RAM as my 3rd gen iPad so I simply never got it low enough on RAM, but for whatever the reason browsing worked a lot better the SP4.
Since then I also got a 6th gen iPad (not Pro). It's much better than my old 3rd gen was about this, but still does occasionally force a refresh when witching among tabs.
For what it's worth, Linux is a lot more parsimonious in its use of swap space than Windows, given very similar hardware and use cases.
Apps might not expose the iPadOS filesystem well (since they've gradually accreted a UX paradigm over the last 10 filesystem-less years), but it actually does work perfectly well to open files from your iPadOS home directory [the thing the Files app exposes] in any app that can handle that file type. You can open video files from Files into VLC; you can open CBRs/CBZs into https://chunkyreader.com/ ; etc.
For getting the files in/out of the iPad, Files can access external disks just fine (I've been using a Samsung USB-C T5 SSD); and Safari (don't know about other browsers) now allows you to save arbitrary files, putting your downloads in a regular Downloads folder within the Files-visible homedir. I'm sure there are other methods as well (e.g. copying files to the iPad's local storage from a storage provider, e.g. iCloud Drive, or Dropbox, or an SFTP/S3 client's host profile; or using a BitTorrent client to download whatever.)
Of course, apps can't access your homedir arbitrarily if they don't have the relevant capability, but that's just good sandboxing—if an app only works with particular files, it should only be receiving capabilities on individual files (through e.g. the Share/Open With action), not capabilities on your filesystem as a whole. The only reason desktop OSes aren't already mostly this way is the inertia of legacy apps.
(There's also nothing stopping a local POSIX terminal emulator app from creating a shared container that other apps like IDEs can write into, if you're wondering. Nobody's bothered yet, but that's because everyone wants to own your eyeballs with fully-integrated single-app solutions, not because it's not technically possible. You could totally build the equivalent of Termux for iPadOS. The only limitation would be that the package ecosystem would have to use the App Store as its package manager, with packages containing executables being distributed as Apple-signed extension "apps." Sort of like how iMessage's sticker-pack "apps" work, or how Photos.app's filter-pack "apps" work; or how Safari's content-blocker "apps" work. Or, come to think of it, exactly like how XCode.app attaches its POSIX tooling into the [read-only] macOS rootfs.)
AFAIK Apple doesn't allow BitTorrent clients to run on iOS devices
This coming from the company who bought SwiftKey is indeed baffling.
By "fin" you mean... the stand? So, the stand means that it doesn't stand on its own? What?
You clearly haven't tried one because the built-in stand is fantastic and the keyboard cover works very well.
Yeah. It needs the stand because it doesn’t support itself with the keyboard (like a laptop). It just doesn’t seem very lap friendly. Previous to the iPad Pro keyboard I didn’t find any solution to this problem tablets that didn’t involve some ugly clamps.
I haven’t tried it, so I am interested in others’ experience with it, since it’s an interesting design.
Yeah it's primarily a tablet form factor and doesn't come with a keyboard. But that makes it a tablet that stands on its own with the built-in stand. Then, plug in one USB-C cable and it's a full computer with access to all my peripherals that can drive my 3840x1600 monitor. Add the keyboard cover (which is fantastic for how thin it is, the trackpad works well, etc.) and it becomes a laptop.
There are lots of problems with the Go. It's slow! Battery life is mediocre. Windows itself is a mess. Because it's a tablet that's a full computer, it's bulkier than an ipad. But it's such a neat little device.
Edit: I found some rumors that claim that Apple might revive the 12" MacBook in 2020. I hope they actually do but can't really see it happening as it might cannibalize their iPad sales.
When it comes to those two accessories, for me at least, I think they're such a great value for such a low price!
I don't know if weird is the word. Some people just are really into this sort of thing. Like when the hard-core Apple fans lost their coolant when the black keyboard and mouse came out.
I think it's normal because these are things we interact with physically every day. We become attached to real, tangible things. It's part of why keychains, mobile phones, and jewelry are so personal to us.
Especially because the last generation sculpt mouse was mechanically junk (i'm on my third one in 2 years...) but in a great form factor.
I'm looking to stave off some looming wrist RSI, and have latched onto the idea that a vertical mouse (Evoluent, Anker, and Logitech are probably the most popular manufacturers) is the best solution short of switching to a different device type, like a trackball.
CST now bought-out/renamed to X-keys by P.I. Engineering.
Everyone seems to immediately try to jump to some device that is going to fix all of their problems without actually taking care of themselves or changing their habits first.
Seriously, since we have been in lockdown for 2 months my wrists are much more sensitive. I did use the powerball for a bit but I don't have the patience for brainless exercise. I love walking in nature.
For me, they actually caused rsi issues. Took a while to narrow it down to the ergo keyboard. Which is a shame, it's one of the few MS designs that I like.
I'm not sure I understand people that want heavy mechanical keyboards, which for me feels like a throwback to touch typing classes on the IBM typewriter in 1988.
A poor version of this, but already worth using : Samsung Dex with a portable monitor, with UserLand or Andronix.
Portable monitors are way behind the Surface Pro X (e.g. for pencil management), Samsung doesn't invest enough money on Dex and UserLand / Andronix lack some features (a good VNC client seamlessly integrated / hardware acceleration)
It changes everything.