Rattling off the talking points, Check. Barely scratching the surface and avoiding any critical analysis that could potentially derail the talking points. Check. "Rough guesses" and straw mans abound. Check.
And I'm supposed to take articles like these seriously?
>"Starting pay for the humblest burger-flipper at McDonald’s in Denmark is about $22 an hour once various pay supplements are included. The McDonald’s workers in Denmark get six weeks of paid vacation a year, life insurance, a year’s paid maternity leave and a pension plan. And like all Danes, they enjoy universal medical insurance and paid sick leave."
You're being sarcastic but will Wilkinson took this question seriously years ago in a piece to address libertarians[1]
>[...]"The important thing to note, in this case, is that the scholars making these assumptions, Ian Vásquez and Tanja Porčnik, former Cato Institute colleagues of mine, are libertarians who understand freedom as “the absence of coercive constraint.” And when they apply that notion of freedom and stick all their Koch-funded assumptions into an index and add everything up, Denmark, which is what Bernie Sanders thinks of as a model of “democratic socialism,” comes out a lot freer than the United States. Canada, which has precisely the sort of single-payer health-care system Bernie Sanders wants, comes out a lot freer than the United States—on a libertarian index of freedom."[...]
There's this current love affair with Denmark and I'm genuinely intrigued. Can you take this tiny model and actually extrapolate it? Is it as great as some would say? It seems people outside Denmark are more vocal about it than locals.
I recently watched this special documentary (I'll try to recover the source) where they interviewed locals. And they said yes it's great and it's very progressive so long as you follow the Danish way and don't veer off too much. And to me, no matter what "research" you have, that speaks volumes regarding freedom. Can you actually be different and not only enjoy life, but truly succeed while being different there compared to other countries?
And would the Danish way contribute what the USA has to the world (even adjusting for population) in such a short period of time? Just my opinion, but I don't think so.
Now it does seem that if you were to pick a country that would have the largest % of people happy, and that was your ideal, you'd be a Dane. But if you believe in individual liberty, high achievement, competition, and diversity, then there is no comparison. USA or some other countries.
I'm not saying one is good and one is bad. We're talking about fundamental differences so whatever floats your boat.
But I think what we are seeing is a lot of people trying to fundamentally alter a country who's sole foundation, despite its warts, is responsible for its success. And they're trying to cheerlead a small country's identity to do so.
Regarding Bernie - the argument for him as a libertarian candidate is nonsense. He has no regard for states' rights.
> Now it does seem that if you were to pick a country that would have the largest % of people happy, and that was your ideal, you'd be a Dane. But if you believe in individual liberty, high achievement, competition, and diversity, then there is no comparison. USA or some other countries.
On diversity you are correct. But which individual liberties are Danes lacking? Guns?
Tax rate is certainly high, but it is very much a free-market economy and very business friendly. How do you define high achievement? Living a comfortable and secure life? Getting a college degree? Becoming a billionaire?
Yes I love a lot of things about their style but they don't value individual achievement which puts them at a disadvantage in many respects because every so often you get an incredibly transformative figure if you cultivate that culture.
They dont celebrate winning like other countries. I totally understand and respect it but it's just not my style. I don't think it brings out the best but I admit it may please more people.
I bounced back and forth between Denmark and the US for many years, though I've been in the US for the past 4 years now.
The best way to understand Denmark from an American perspective would be something like "Imagine if everyone in America was lower-middle class". Whether this is better or worse for you obviously depends on whether you're poor, middle, upper middle or upper class.
For me, Danish culture was something of a nightmare of 'tall poppy syndrome' and bleak, hopelessness that hard work doesn't pay and that no matter what you do, you're stuck eating sack lunches and taking the bus to work because your spouse needs the one car your family can afford. That said, if I had an intellect that limited academic abilities or a more naturally lethargic approach to school and work, I'd certainly find my life more comfortable in Denmark and see the American model as unforgiving.
Basically, Denmark pulls up the bottom towards the median, at the cost of pulling down the top towards the same point, to a far larger degree than the US. Everybody gets just enough, but nobody is allowed to have more than just enough.
It seems a clever Dane could get pregnant and take a year off, then get pregnant again during that paid year off, in such a way as to avoid returning to work in-between.
It sounds like you have personal experience with pregnancy. Given that, I'm surprised that you'd say this as pregnancy is no picnic, From observing how it was for my wife and how it _permanently_ changed her body and health, I would take a years of regular work any day over pregnancy.
But speaking anecdotally as an ex-pat dane, the people I know would look at it the opposite way: it might stop them from _NOT_ having children, but it would never make them have children they wouldn't have considered already. I'm sure there are exceptions but are they statistically significant?
Honestly this is just a baseless article with a catchy title to grab attention. You could write a similar article saying - tech workers in Bay Area pity Denmark tech workers for their low salaries but that would not garner as much eyeballs.
It's always interesting to read when foreign news papers glorify my country. It's usually around election time.
Denmark, like any other country, has its good sides and its not so good sides. You've now heard the good sides, I guess because it supports the view the news paper would like to make.
There are some factual errors in this article, like the fact that we don't have minimum wages (we do, but it's negotiated by the unions, not the government), also the base salary (no overtime and weekend benefits included) for a McDonald's worker above 18 is closer to $17 than $22. McDonald's hire people as low as 13 though, whom of course have much lesser salaries. There are many 15-17 year olds in Denmark who works in this sector, where the minimum salary (for a 15 year old) is around $7 an hour. Add to that the fact that Denmark has one of the highest tax rates in the world, and the 15 year old hourly salary is reduced to $4.50 an hour after tax. The VAT in Denmark is 25%, so that's something you'd have to pay extra on more or less everything you buy.
Many things in the article are true. But also, many things have been left out in order to paint such a glorious portrait of the Happy Little Kingdom in the north, who fought Nazi's so intently (.. well, a few rebel Danes did, including my grandfather, but certainly not the government). Also, interesting to hear of a McDonald's worker who wanted to buy an apartment for her salary. I think she must live in a more rural area of Denmark, as we often hear stories of how police men and nurses cannot buy an apartment in the bigger cities, due to low salaries.
Education is free. True. Does that mean the education is good? Is it getting better or worse each year? Same should be asked about the other social benefits, daycare, hospitals, retirement homes etc. In general, Danes complain quite a bit about the yearly cuts being made to all of these areas.
I think there's a main point missing in the article: What is the price for all this? Ever since Denmark closed down we've heard the government putting into law ways to allocate more and more money to more and more areas of society. One of the more extravagant new rules I've heard of must be that of the artist, song writer, or similar, who, for example, have made a painting or a song that they couldn't sell, they would get compensated up to 100% of the artists estimated evaluation, had it not been sold before July. After July, the artist was free to sell it, without having to pay anything back to the government. (I haven't been able to find the article on this to verify it, so I do hope it was maybe just fake). In any case, we hear some numbers in the news here, for the Corona bill, and it certainly is scary. I suspect, in time, articles about Denmark will begin to appear in non-liberal news papers, about all the flaws of Denmark's society and its social-democrat run government.
We do love America though, it's one of the favorite travel destinations for Danes traveling outside Europe. Yet the accepted norm here is to blame America for most that is evil. Pollution. Greed. Even multinational corporations, like McDonald's, are seen as evil by many people around here. For that reason, danish news papers often carry stories like the one where McDonald's attracted quite some unwanted publicity, for having payed $0 in taxes in Denmark since 1981. Which incidentally could be one more of the reasons why the price of burgers are relatively low here.
We get paid to go to school and the education in any STEM field is good, especially if you're getting into programming (see KU and their Ponies for example). I'm a half-Dane and I've known enough of the American Life to know that yes life is much, much better here in Denmark to the point that most Danes around me appear completely oblivious to how good they have it.
Please, just find ways of being grateful. It's the good life and you were lucky enough to be born into it.
17 comments
[ 5.1 ms ] story [ 22.4 ms ] threadAnd I'm supposed to take articles like these seriously?
>[...]"The important thing to note, in this case, is that the scholars making these assumptions, Ian Vásquez and Tanja Porčnik, former Cato Institute colleagues of mine, are libertarians who understand freedom as “the absence of coercive constraint.” And when they apply that notion of freedom and stick all their Koch-funded assumptions into an index and add everything up, Denmark, which is what Bernie Sanders thinks of as a model of “democratic socialism,” comes out a lot freer than the United States. Canada, which has precisely the sort of single-payer health-care system Bernie Sanders wants, comes out a lot freer than the United States—on a libertarian index of freedom."[...]
[1]https://www.niskanencenter.org/is-there-a-libertarian-case-f...
I recently watched this special documentary (I'll try to recover the source) where they interviewed locals. And they said yes it's great and it's very progressive so long as you follow the Danish way and don't veer off too much. And to me, no matter what "research" you have, that speaks volumes regarding freedom. Can you actually be different and not only enjoy life, but truly succeed while being different there compared to other countries?
And would the Danish way contribute what the USA has to the world (even adjusting for population) in such a short period of time? Just my opinion, but I don't think so.
Now it does seem that if you were to pick a country that would have the largest % of people happy, and that was your ideal, you'd be a Dane. But if you believe in individual liberty, high achievement, competition, and diversity, then there is no comparison. USA or some other countries.
I'm not saying one is good and one is bad. We're talking about fundamental differences so whatever floats your boat.
But I think what we are seeing is a lot of people trying to fundamentally alter a country who's sole foundation, despite its warts, is responsible for its success. And they're trying to cheerlead a small country's identity to do so.
Regarding Bernie - the argument for him as a libertarian candidate is nonsense. He has no regard for states' rights.
On diversity you are correct. But which individual liberties are Danes lacking? Guns?
Tax rate is certainly high, but it is very much a free-market economy and very business friendly. How do you define high achievement? Living a comfortable and secure life? Getting a college degree? Becoming a billionaire?
They dont celebrate winning like other countries. I totally understand and respect it but it's just not my style. I don't think it brings out the best but I admit it may please more people.
The best way to understand Denmark from an American perspective would be something like "Imagine if everyone in America was lower-middle class". Whether this is better or worse for you obviously depends on whether you're poor, middle, upper middle or upper class.
For me, Danish culture was something of a nightmare of 'tall poppy syndrome' and bleak, hopelessness that hard work doesn't pay and that no matter what you do, you're stuck eating sack lunches and taking the bus to work because your spouse needs the one car your family can afford. That said, if I had an intellect that limited academic abilities or a more naturally lethargic approach to school and work, I'd certainly find my life more comfortable in Denmark and see the American model as unforgiving.
Basically, Denmark pulls up the bottom towards the median, at the cost of pulling down the top towards the same point, to a far larger degree than the US. Everybody gets just enough, but nobody is allowed to have more than just enough.
But speaking anecdotally as an ex-pat dane, the people I know would look at it the opposite way: it might stop them from _NOT_ having children, but it would never make them have children they wouldn't have considered already. I'm sure there are exceptions but are they statistically significant?
The benefit to the society should be obvious.
The catch is that you end up with two kids, which can make professional work feel like a vacation.
If there is an apples to oranges comparison, the only one closer would be to the Netherlands.
Denmark, like any other country, has its good sides and its not so good sides. You've now heard the good sides, I guess because it supports the view the news paper would like to make.
There are some factual errors in this article, like the fact that we don't have minimum wages (we do, but it's negotiated by the unions, not the government), also the base salary (no overtime and weekend benefits included) for a McDonald's worker above 18 is closer to $17 than $22. McDonald's hire people as low as 13 though, whom of course have much lesser salaries. There are many 15-17 year olds in Denmark who works in this sector, where the minimum salary (for a 15 year old) is around $7 an hour. Add to that the fact that Denmark has one of the highest tax rates in the world, and the 15 year old hourly salary is reduced to $4.50 an hour after tax. The VAT in Denmark is 25%, so that's something you'd have to pay extra on more or less everything you buy.
Many things in the article are true. But also, many things have been left out in order to paint such a glorious portrait of the Happy Little Kingdom in the north, who fought Nazi's so intently (.. well, a few rebel Danes did, including my grandfather, but certainly not the government). Also, interesting to hear of a McDonald's worker who wanted to buy an apartment for her salary. I think she must live in a more rural area of Denmark, as we often hear stories of how police men and nurses cannot buy an apartment in the bigger cities, due to low salaries.
Education is free. True. Does that mean the education is good? Is it getting better or worse each year? Same should be asked about the other social benefits, daycare, hospitals, retirement homes etc. In general, Danes complain quite a bit about the yearly cuts being made to all of these areas.
I think there's a main point missing in the article: What is the price for all this? Ever since Denmark closed down we've heard the government putting into law ways to allocate more and more money to more and more areas of society. One of the more extravagant new rules I've heard of must be that of the artist, song writer, or similar, who, for example, have made a painting or a song that they couldn't sell, they would get compensated up to 100% of the artists estimated evaluation, had it not been sold before July. After July, the artist was free to sell it, without having to pay anything back to the government. (I haven't been able to find the article on this to verify it, so I do hope it was maybe just fake). In any case, we hear some numbers in the news here, for the Corona bill, and it certainly is scary. I suspect, in time, articles about Denmark will begin to appear in non-liberal news papers, about all the flaws of Denmark's society and its social-democrat run government.
We do love America though, it's one of the favorite travel destinations for Danes traveling outside Europe. Yet the accepted norm here is to blame America for most that is evil. Pollution. Greed. Even multinational corporations, like McDonald's, are seen as evil by many people around here. For that reason, danish news papers often carry stories like the one where McDonald's attracted quite some unwanted publicity, for having payed $0 in taxes in Denmark since 1981. Which incidentally could be one more of the reasons why the price of burgers are relatively low here.
Sources:
https://www.information.dk/2002/09/store-firmaer-betaler-ing...
https://www.reddit.com/r/Denmark/comments/5pbjtc/jeg_arbejde...
Please, just find ways of being grateful. It's the good life and you were lucky enough to be born into it.