Should assisted death/suicide be legal?
I'm seeking opinions/views on society opening the gate on assisted dying and depending on different circumstances:
1. Without requiring a person to be suffering a serious illness; if yes or no, please explain why.
2. Requiring a person to be suffering a chronic illness; if yes should mental illness qualify and please explain why for your opinion including if you think no in general for illnesses.
3. Advance requests for when cognitive or physical function has declined beyond acceptable; if so please explain and should appearance be considered a physical function because it greatly effects how people interact with us.
4. Should assisted dying be solely on the person alone to perform if legal and only if the person is unable to function for performing it?
I remind myself everyday that my experience in life is unique and mine alone. I'm not necessarily keen on people that force others to live a similar life rules as oneself unless the rules don't harm others to a point of unacceptability. Anyway I'm in favour of assisted death.
52 comments
[ 0.25 ms ] story [ 132 ms ] threadIn some cases it's not really a choice between life vs death. The choice is a speedy death or a slow torturous death where they let you die of dehydration. Generally I think it's good to be legal, edge cases and what-if's aside. There are already negative "what-ifs" under the status quo, such as people being left to die of dehydration. Even pet dogs get a more merciful death.
2. Yes. Same as above.
3. Yes. Same as above.
4. I don't think I understand the question.
3. Yes; though only conditions that result in a loss of mental capability or communication should be part of an advance request. Reason: an advance will reduce the standard of investigation required by the professional to "do they meet the conditions of their advance directive", but at the time the directive is made it is unlikely that the person is a valid suicide candidate, so fewer checks and balances can be in place.
2. There should be no white or blacklist to assisted suicide. The person should only have to meet certain criteria along the lines of - they have tried to live with their reason, they have no realistic positive treatment options, etc.
1. As 2
The overarching reason is that your life is your own. But this is tempered by the fact that people are all limited in experience and knowledge, and as a society we should act to help each other make the most out of it.
This is why, despite being wildly in favour of assisted dying and suicide in my own country, I am a lot less keen to see my unrestricted flavour in other countries, countries who do not look after the other members of their society; countries who have debtors prisons and predatory medicine are places where open suicide laws will be used to escape the hell of their tormentors instead of overthrowing it.
If death is medically certain and the person is only trying to escape a painful death this would be a hindrance. In this scenario it feels hard to have any due process unless you decide it beforehand. When my father in law died he didn’t want morphine because he was correctly assuming it would kill him. At one point though he was willing to make that trade off though. He would not have wanted this before he was really trying to hang on even through the pain until he wasn’t. In such cases I feel you should have a right to pain management even if it jeopardizes your life. But in this situation where you are deteriorating in the hospital a legal System style procedure would not help you at all.
Reminds me of that documentary I watched about a police officer that was working on that bridge, not sure which, in CA I believe, who have seen a lot of people jump and die. The few that survived (and who were badly hurt result of the jump) explained that as soon as they threw themselves in the void they immediately regretted doing it, and later on, in the hospital, with broken bones everywhere they were happy to have survived it and were pretty much cured of their death wish.
Life is so full of unexpected turns.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRs-DlYmws4
That particular police officer they were interviewing was a pretty old guy, who spent many decades working on that bridge and so have seen it all.
It was a good 5 years ago, maybe even more, so my memory is a bit hazy.
You think they’re going to show people who survived a suicide attempt saying, “dang, really upset I didn’t die.”?
Did I understand this wrong? Because if not, at least I'm sure I don't agree with that. Depression is the most fixable problem an human-being can fix and is as seasonal as happiness and cheerfulness. Every person that suicides because of depression is an idiot that most of the times leave lots of people hurt.
Yes, this is a misunderstanding "I think almost nobody would argue that depression should qualify you for assisted suicide".....because everybody would argue that you should see a psychologist, get your depression treated, and go on to live a long and happy life.
You have no way to know that “our experience of life is always changing.”
It doesn’t always get better. Sometimes it keeps getting worse! Sometimes it stays equally awful!
What’s true for you and the people you’ve heard talk about it isn’t necessarily true for everyone. Maybe the people who died on the bridge would’ve hated surviving?
The experience we have is always changing, even if our material condition stay the same. That's what I mean here.
> Maybe the people who died on the bridge would’ve hated surviving?
Sure, at that moment, but what about 3 days later, or 3 months, who can tell?
So, my argument here is in life, nothing is permanent, while death is.
Your argument is based only on your own experience and what you’ve chosen to hear from others.
Can you acknowledge the possibility that for some people the miserable experience of their life is permanent?
I can acknowledge it might be true for some of those people. But there are a whole fucking lot of people.
But when it comes to this, I’m not going to be so arrogant and self-centered as to say something that I believe applies to all of them.
> Blaming the person for not doing something is a scapegoat
oh, how that is a scapegoat and blaming luck or the world or randomness isn't?
I don't care if there are people that don't see any possibility of them being happy. That possibility exists to anybody that is not dead. Unless you have a totally biased perception of reality and would only be happy if you were the next Elon Musk, a hollywood actor or a famous sportsman. This kind of misery, which is the majority of the "misery" in the world, I really don't care and don't feel empathy. Suffering of a hollow existence is not really suffering, especially if it is related to the choices they made in the past.
Yet you seem to have an opinion already made against those people. You didn't provide facts as well for any of your comments. :/
We all know that pain can only be experienced by oneself and we have no way of truly knowing how painful one may be experiencing from an illness compared to another. That's why there has to be personal responsibility for oneself to make such a decision and compassion from society to agree someone suffering should be able to have a safe death if they truly wish to end everything. I've been in multiple medical settings because of my type of work and where pain truly makes life nothing more than ugly & despicable. I can understand your position if you've never seen a person in pain for decades and if you think all things are curable when it's simply not the case for everyone. I've also spoken to multiple doctors that take your position because they believe someone has to be the guinea pigs for progressing humanity while searching for cures.
Anyway I can give you a personal email of mine if you wish to discuss your opinions in great detail on this topic because I'm always trying to understand both sides. I don't think HN comments is the better option.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Any internet discussion that degenerates to "Can you please define" and "Please describe a" has left the path of curious conversation.
Also, personal attacks, such as you did with paulcole upthread, are bannable offences here.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
So if the experience is changing and you are equally suffering, you are not learning with life, that's a mistake that lots of people do. Suicide is not a solution.
You’re willing to say that to someone who lives with an incurable and life-altering disease that I fucking hate? I cross the same bridge every day. When I get up. When I go to bed. When I’m asleep and every moment in between.
My suffering is because I’m not learning with life? That’s my mistake? And that it’s not a byproduct of something 100% out of my control?
No offense, but that’s pretty fucking arrogant of you.
So go ahead, give me your tips for learning with life and overcoming my mistake.
My view on the question of impermanence has been shaped by buddhism. I'm not a buddhist, I just discovered buddhism at an age and in circumstances where it talked to me and helped me a lot going through some very bad stuff.
In a nutshell, but the subject is extremelly vast: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impermanence
I hope it explains better than I did what I meant by "nothing is permanent", and maybe it'll be of interest to you like it has been for me. Feel free if you want more pointers.
I'm not, I don't know you and I don't care about you. Desperation doesn't make your point right, the same way it doesn't make it right for a poor guy to rob another just because he is hungry. Life is tough to everybody, besides the 0.1% that are too lucky to born with everything they need and the 0.1% that have and will have nothing. I'll not modulate my opinion based on the 0.1% and wonder if you are part of this group. There is no arrogance on that. Life doesn't work for you? I feel sorry for you, nothing more.
I've replied to the other user elsewhere, who has been breaking the site guidelines even more in this thread than you did, but two wrongs don't make a right.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
This obviously derailed my life and my sisters and my dad for many years. I have some skepticism about if/how assisted death would have been better but I suspect it would have been. I imagine (perhaps wrongly) we would have been able to say goodbye and give her a peaceful end. Maybe have counseling leading up to and through it?
I'll respectfully skip the 1-4 specifics. I just believe that people who want to die should be allowed to do so peacefully, and no one who objects should be obligated to help. With the hundreds of millions of guns in the US, violent suicide is widely available here, the debate is more about if a peaceful death is available and I think it should be within thoughtful constraints. Those that disagree with me are entitled to their opinions though.
Assisted dying should be a function of healthcare. I like the way we have set it up in the Netherlands, there are strict guidelines, there is oversight and it's process to make an informed decision.
I think selecting a method and location that doesn't cause a burden on those left behind is important.
And I could see legal grey areas when it comes to those found to be mentally unsound, and those who might be late stage pregnant.
But in general when possible, we shouldn't tell others how to live or die.
Mental illness is a different kettle of fish. I supported taking Terry Shivo of the equipment that kept her alive.
4 - I expect when I would want to go, I would not have the physical capability to do it.
2. See 1.
3. When cognitive function is damaged severely, the person cannot make decisions on their own, including decisions on whether they should live or die.
4. All voluntary interactions are fine.
3) This is the most important case. If you can't rely on someone else to put you out of your misery when you're incapable, then you have to do it yourself before it's actually necessary, while you still have the ability. Otherwise you risk being trapped in agony for the remainder of your life. That's a cruel gamble, betting on the probability, duration, and pain of your own sow death, vs how much worthwhile life you're potentially giving up. It's also very unreliable as there are all sorts of things that can take you from fine to permanent agony in an instant. I don't see why appearance would matter.
4) If capable, you should do it yourself. If incapable, someone should be allowed to assist. Assistance should always be from a qualified professional who has no conflicts of interest to keep the line between assisted suicide an murder as clear as possible.
2. No — I don’t need to have a chronic illness to know that I hate my life and would rather die painlessly. Mental illness is not always treatable. If someone wants to die that opportunity should be available to them.
3. Don’t understand your question here.
4. No. Killing yourself usually leaves somebody else a mess to clean up, both literally and mentally. Plus I’m not skilled at killing myself and there’s a good chance I would fuck it up. If it’s a legal service, somebody will take my money to do it and that option should be available.
2. Also no, because multiple times chronic illness is related to lifestyle and can be fixed or at least improved a lot. Laziness and lack of willpower (even because of suffering) is not an excuse to be legally allowed and assisted in death
3. The same as above.
4. Also the same! Giving up of life doesn't need to be assisted, anyway. But definitely the state should not in ANY circumstance incentive suicide.
2. Yes. And yes mental illness like depression should qualify (See below). But mental illnesses where person is extremely disillusioned should not.
3. Yes. Appearance sure, it is their life.
4. Sure, see below.
However, I think person who is committing suicide still has responsibilities to society including not causing emotional harm to their loved ones, not leaving a mess behind for others to clean up etc. As a society, we should establish guidelines for suicide. I like Hindu practice of suicide called [Prayopavesa][1].
Prayopavesa is basically slow suicide by fasting to death. This may take days or weeks. This solves the big problem of people changing their mind after pulling the trigger or jumping off the ledge. If at any point suicidal person changes their mind, they can start eating.
Also if a person is disciplined enough to fast for days, we can trust that person has emotional maturity to make such a big decision. In other forms of assisted suicide like injecting drugs, an emotional person may sign up with a service, then they might even go through extensive paperwork. I personally end up doing things like sky diving just because I signed up to do them while drunk. I didn't want to do it later, but felt ashamed asking for refund. I imagine, emotionally unstable person may go through paperwork even when they are having second thoughts.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayopavesa