anyone else ever think to themselves that there's no point in being honest when it's seemingly so easy to get ahead by being dishonest? like what is even the point of working hard and playing by all of the rules when people like this can just manipulate their way to success?
Honesty is the best policy in a society that has rule of law. People who are able to manipulate their way to success have skills and perspective that allow them to be successful at manipulation. They would be successful if they chose an honest path too.
To answer your question directly- it is harder than it looks
To the GP's rhetorical point, if you /really/ are wondering why you shouldn't, then you aren't actually happily married.
To your original point, no, there would be no point to being honest if being dishonest made it easier to get ahead. But it would be very naive to presume that being dishonest makes it easier to get ahead. You need to have cunning to get ahead by being dishonest, and one false move can screw up a long period of well executed dishonesty. Are you personally equipped to pull that off? Better than those who've been practicing their whole lives? And beyond that, the psychological and sociological ramifications of it will catch up with you too. Who do you think you'll tend to be surrounded by if you take such a strategy? What kind of life experiences will you never get to experience as a result of that? You don't have to look very far to get answers to that. It's not pretty.
For some people, pure wealth or fame is worth any degree of dishonesty, by which I mean the negative effects of it simply do not cause them difficulty. But I think the far more likely case is that our societal discourse minimizes the difficulty it does cause. When peace decays and order crumbles, it doesn't make warfare (literal or figurative) any less expensive or unpleasant. It just makes it harder to avoid.
Because it is right. Why would you need any other reason, isn't that enough? Do you believe being honest is the correct and right way?
I think that's the only reason you need, just like you can't have a reason to justify doing what you believe is wrong. Of course these are goals I would aim for, I simply mean that if I fail to live up to these standards then I am failing,not that I claim to have succeeded.
I guess then it depends on what you think is right and wrong. I personally have a very clear definition of what I consider to be a legitimate authoriry and under which clear and precise definitions of right,wrong ,justice and morality exist. Maybe you should explore what authority model you subscribe to.
There is always an authority,even if that is yourself. If you consider yourself as the final authority over all things then I suggest checking your ego a bit.
My perspective: As in any program or system of programs,the author has original and final authority over all things authored. Even if you leave absolute origin as a variable,it is clear that both natural and man made systems which have legitimate authorities.
But in the case of your question, I say ask and answer deeper questions. Who or What has authority over interpersonal interactions at the social , relationship,national,global and universal level. An authority that depends on your opinion of it's legitimacy is not legitimate.
At a fundamental level, most american's don't think their government has their best interests in mind. They also think tribal membership affects your success and wellbeing. Conversly,US politicians have been reduced to entertainers and propagandists.
This will not end good, even without russia,china and everyone else that would love to see america burn, things look very dire. Fasicism ,civil wars, foreign occupation are things I expect as real possibilities within the next 5-10 years. The fragility of peace and liberty has been underestimated.
There is no way to stop this without blaming the people. It's not corporations,oligarchs, foreign countries,politicians,the media,the lef,the right,the center,the non-voters,etc... It's the people as a whole that are incorrect. It's "us" who is the problem not "them".
Make no mistake, it will not be as great and luxurious as the collapse of venezuela,the harsh rule of DPRK,or the cruel civil war of Syria. I hope I am so wrong. It's like cancer with it's different stages and spread,at a certain stage it's too late, your own body is against itself.
There is a them. The current President was elected on the back of his decade-long campaign against honesty and basic human decency. In his corner were horrific demagogues like Alex Jones and Rush Limbaugh, lying to impressionable people, cynically stoking their anxieties and cultivating mental illness for profit.
I didn't say there wasn't, I said blame "us". Just like unions divisions are two way. I can make a good argument on how your side eradicated their culture,excluded them from participating in society,ostracized them for holding their most sacred beliefs and painted their entire group as villains for the actions of the fringe. You allow them to participate so long as they abandon contradictory belief. They are terrified of you as you are of them. You stopped seeing them as equals, but as "impressionable" ,uneducated,gullible,foolish and ignorant. Blame yourself first. There have always been rush limbaughs,alex jones',and donald trumps. Evil and deception are not a new invention. Deep seated divisons and mistrust of this level are however new to your country. Even in the civil war era, they may have hated each other but they didn't consider each other subhuman, they did not think the union had an ulterior motive to eradicate them,the union knew the south wanted slavery,not world domination or some ulterior agenda against the masses.
I can't find a better comparison than yugoslavia ad Rwanda in the 90's if I wanted to compare america now with a historical country.
We can talk all day about this. The point is democracy does not mean the competent,the intelligent,the superior or those with the best ideas rule. It means the people as a whole (not in part) rule and give legitimacy to their rulers.
In other words, "they" certainly may be villains but "us" is what you need to fix. Why? Because everyone riding the same boat and everyone drowns when the boar sinks. That is the point if democracy and your boat is sinking. You will have no country to flee to because all your allies themselves depend your stability to be safe from your enemies.
I'm not sure how you go from this documentary selling out, to foreign occupation.
You may dislike the current administration but they were elected democratically within the process set forth by the United States. If Joe Biden is elected next Nov the same way I have no doubts the "other side" will just accept it the same way. That's how democracy works. So again things like civil war, fascism, I just don't see it.
We'll be fine. And it's certainly this documentary selling out that will bring forth the downfall of our civilization.
Regardless of biden or trump the cancerous division thathas metastized. This documentary underlines how so many americans mistrust their government and each other so much that they'd rather abandon the most basic critical thinking. This documentary is not a big deal but it is a symptom of a terminal disease.
Democracy loses legitimacy when most of the country on either side of the divide believe their government is not for,of and by them.
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[ 3.0 ms ] story [ 26.5 ms ] threadTo answer your question directly- it is harder than it looks
To your original point, no, there would be no point to being honest if being dishonest made it easier to get ahead. But it would be very naive to presume that being dishonest makes it easier to get ahead. You need to have cunning to get ahead by being dishonest, and one false move can screw up a long period of well executed dishonesty. Are you personally equipped to pull that off? Better than those who've been practicing their whole lives? And beyond that, the psychological and sociological ramifications of it will catch up with you too. Who do you think you'll tend to be surrounded by if you take such a strategy? What kind of life experiences will you never get to experience as a result of that? You don't have to look very far to get answers to that. It's not pretty.
For some people, pure wealth or fame is worth any degree of dishonesty, by which I mean the negative effects of it simply do not cause them difficulty. But I think the far more likely case is that our societal discourse minimizes the difficulty it does cause. When peace decays and order crumbles, it doesn't make warfare (literal or figurative) any less expensive or unpleasant. It just makes it harder to avoid.
I think that's the only reason you need, just like you can't have a reason to justify doing what you believe is wrong. Of course these are goals I would aim for, I simply mean that if I fail to live up to these standards then I am failing,not that I claim to have succeeded.
There is always an authority,even if that is yourself. If you consider yourself as the final authority over all things then I suggest checking your ego a bit.
My perspective: As in any program or system of programs,the author has original and final authority over all things authored. Even if you leave absolute origin as a variable,it is clear that both natural and man made systems which have legitimate authorities.
But in the case of your question, I say ask and answer deeper questions. Who or What has authority over interpersonal interactions at the social , relationship,national,global and universal level. An authority that depends on your opinion of it's legitimacy is not legitimate.
This will not end good, even without russia,china and everyone else that would love to see america burn, things look very dire. Fasicism ,civil wars, foreign occupation are things I expect as real possibilities within the next 5-10 years. The fragility of peace and liberty has been underestimated.
There is no way to stop this without blaming the people. It's not corporations,oligarchs, foreign countries,politicians,the media,the lef,the right,the center,the non-voters,etc... It's the people as a whole that are incorrect. It's "us" who is the problem not "them".
Make no mistake, it will not be as great and luxurious as the collapse of venezuela,the harsh rule of DPRK,or the cruel civil war of Syria. I hope I am so wrong. It's like cancer with it's different stages and spread,at a certain stage it's too late, your own body is against itself.
I can't find a better comparison than yugoslavia ad Rwanda in the 90's if I wanted to compare america now with a historical country.
We can talk all day about this. The point is democracy does not mean the competent,the intelligent,the superior or those with the best ideas rule. It means the people as a whole (not in part) rule and give legitimacy to their rulers.
In other words, "they" certainly may be villains but "us" is what you need to fix. Why? Because everyone riding the same boat and everyone drowns when the boar sinks. That is the point if democracy and your boat is sinking. You will have no country to flee to because all your allies themselves depend your stability to be safe from your enemies.
> they didn't consider each other subhuman,
Whatever are you talking about
You may dislike the current administration but they were elected democratically within the process set forth by the United States. If Joe Biden is elected next Nov the same way I have no doubts the "other side" will just accept it the same way. That's how democracy works. So again things like civil war, fascism, I just don't see it.
We'll be fine. And it's certainly this documentary selling out that will bring forth the downfall of our civilization.
Democracy loses legitimacy when most of the country on either side of the divide believe their government is not for,of and by them.