> "Terrorism is growing in the city and activities which harm national security, such as ‘Hong Kong independence’, become more rampant," Secretary for Security John Lee said in a statement.
The irony being that this so-called terrorism is in reaction to clamping down of freedoms and arbitrarily adding national security laws into the Basic Law.
>“In just a few months, Hong Kong has changed from one of the safest cities in the world to a city shrouded in the shadow of violence,” he said, adding national security laws were needed to safeguard the city’s prosperity and stability.
Absurd lack of introspection. What change was the catalyst for violence? Maybe start there and work backwards to see who is actually responsible (hint... it's the CCP).
Hong Kong is a territory of China and they have a right to enact this law based on perceived threat to national security because this will not be the first time USA used others shoulders to fire gun.
China don’t want to make same mistake as USSR of ignoring the outside influence and USA succeeding in its mission to thwart another rising power with a different system like USS dream of Mikhail Gorbachev was broken by similar kind of violent protests.
China learned from mistakes of USSR and worked to let the economic benefits trickle down to general population and their people’s life is better than before. I agree they could have treated minorities better and given more rights but looking at conditions of minority in most democratic nation its a worldwide problem.
So do a better introspection and you will notice that answer for this violence and protest is very much linked to geopolitical rivalry especially with USA. There is an uncanny timings that Hong Kong protests flared up quite dramatically right before Taiwan elections, and then suddenly reduced in intensity.
What's pushing China from hiding their capacities and biding their time? Why push the world on this now than wait until 2047? Awfully, it looks like Xi thinks China's time has come.
> He knows China is powerful enough to do this without meaningful consequences. Taiwan not yet, but soon.
Unlike Hong Kong, Taiwan has (thinly veiled) US military Support [1] that would put China in defacto WWIII territory should an attack occur--after this COVID coverup, the CCP and Xi are persona non grata on the international stage. If anything I hope the people of the Mainland realize the dystopia they have created (some do, most are too conditioned) and revolt before that happens as the CCP seems amendment for a suicidal act if they continue with such brazen violence in the area.
They've already pissed off every neighbor in the South China Sea which is essentially opening the doors for more US military bases and interventionism--which I abhor, but recognize as a reality.
I wonder if they worry about other areas of China asking for or demanding the same freedoms and democracy as Hong Kong. "Because it used to be a British colony" doesn't feel like a good justification for massive variations in internal political systems for the people on the wrong side of the border.
Only HK nativism, violence and separatism gets filtered through domestic Chinese media. What most mainlanders see are dumb kids protecting their "privileges" by burning down their own city and appealing to foreign powers to intervene (aka treason). The protests has staunched appetite for western values and systems in the mainland, solidified by how poor most western countries have responded to covid. I guess framed that way it's sad that mainlanders would rather strip HK freedoms than ask for their own, but the reality is, HK protesters are viewed as exploiting privileges bestowed through lottery of birth, to undermine the rest of the country, so maybe such privileges are not worth having en-mass in the first place.
The justification is HK has been dragging their feet on implementing required National Security legislation. There was no set deadline, I think it was left open ended to easy transition. But it's been 23 years. Despite efforts ongoing for the past 10, now the sentiment at the top is they focused too long on 2 systems instead of 1 country. For the CCP, it's ridiculous they have no extradition process with a region under it's control, especially for recent "anti-state" actions. This was recognized a long time ago, hence the efforts at patriotic education and national security law ~10 years ago because the idea of identity and cultural divergence was a risk to longterm integration. Same with Uyghurs and Tibetans. Best to crush the lost generation now and start again.
> solidified by how poor most western countries have responded to covid.
As opposed to mainland efforts, which include a masse invasion of mainlanders into Hong Kong despite local opposition and continued warnings by Health Professionals?
China was the WORST of all for letting this spread in the first place rather then letting it remain localized in Wuhan when they knew of its outbreaks. Arresting and disappearing physicians and journalists who tried to warn the World in the process, and lying via the WHO and continuing to lie about the severity of COVID, as seen with the most recent outbreak of infections [1].
I grant you most Western nations policies were too little, too late by January 2020 as vectors from Wuhan had flown all over the World, but this is a pandemic caused directly by CCP policy to lie and manipulate and outright hijack the narrative of its cause and origin, which lies solely with China. And the blame lies solely on them for this occurring, which in my view having followed the Hong Kong protests since 2014 is analogous to Biological Warfare and they should be tried for Crimes Against Humanity.
> For the CCP, it's ridiculous they have no extradition process with a region under it's control, especially for recent "anti-state" actions. This was recognized a long time ago, hence the efforts at patriotic education and national security law ~10 years ago because the idea of identity and cultural divergence was a risk to longterm integration. Same with Uyghurs and Tibetans.
How is a supposed autonomous region supposed to conduct itself when its citizens can be detained for the same absurd violations that occur on the mainland? Which include disrespecting Xi on the internet? Especially for a region with Western Values and customs pertaining to Free Speech?
> Best to crush the lost generation now and start again.
What you call 'patriotic education' is Soviet Union style brainwashing and conditioning for State worship. Are you seriously advocating for masse genocide and internment prisons to usher in this supposed Glory age for the CCP? I'd call you a Wumao but you are straight up a CCP indoctrinated fool if you are saying what I think you are.
Explanation =/= endorsement. The reality is those indoctrinated by western liberal values will clash those indoctrinated by CCP values, and ultimately the CCP themselves. That's an inevitable contradiction with 1C2S. At the end of the day 1.4 billion is not going to change for 7 million. The only realistic option for HK was to gravitate towards the Chinese system, the most optimal condition would be akin to Singapore, nominal dictatorship with many familiar freedoms circumscribed by one party restricted press. Last I checked, most Singaporeans liked Singapore fine. But the protesters opted to for universal suffrage & not one less, that will never happen especially after treasonous appeals to foreign parties. So the movement must to be broken, better cauterize the wound now than let it bleed and be infected by foreign agents in the difficult times ahead. No need to genocide or mass internment. Integrate HK into greater bayarea, squeeze protesters into margins of society and out of HK by blacklisting them from local opportunities, disperse 4/7 million rebellious voices until it's drowned out by 66/70 million pro-CCP voices. Basically what Social Credit was designed to do: expel non-productive people or those that burden Chinese development out of privileged areas and visibility. Indoctrinate new generation to comport to CCP values, replaced displaced dissenters with mainlanders. Two options after. HK becomes just another tamed Chinese city. 15 years into the process, they can start building HK back up into a model city filled with "loyal" citizenry, which leaves another 14 years to try to convince new voting generation in Taiwan that 1C2S could still work. Assuming US containment fails. Which it very well might.
I'd try to rebuttal, but it seems entirely worthless to do so. But your response to Sesame Credit highlights why this needs to be stopped. And the Truth is the same model is being rolled out in Africa as well as the regions of 'Greater China.'
> Basically what Social Credit was designed to do: expel non-productive people or those that burden Chinese development [CCP Agenda] out of privileged areas and visibility. Indoctrinate new generation to comport to CCP values, replaced displaced dissenters with mainlanders [Colonialism].
Because Chinese capacity was recognized early under Obama, who "pushed" first with pivot to Asia. There was acknowledgement that China could potential competitor, sick Olympics 2008 followed by Chinese growth bailing world out of during GFC same year. Incidentally this was when China first realized their own power levels / brokenness of US system. This was under Hu. First Obama term 2009, Secretary of State Hilary Clinton recognize that China as US most important relationship of the new century, that Chinese raise need not be treated as an "adversary" - implicitly acknowledging that China as potential future competitor. This was followed by US increasing and strengthening Asia-Pacific military deployment forging alliances, selling arms to Taiwan to box in China behind first island chain. Xi inherited this problem in 2013. The response - South China Sea build up in 2015. BTW China was the last party out of 6 claimants to build land and militarize the region. It was reactionary. Similar to how US pushed NATO to undermine Russian peripheries, so byebye Ukraine. Ditto with SCS. Then you have TPP and technological competition after announcement of Made in China 2025 which was met by containment efforts on tech front.
Reality is, US has been trying to contain China for over a decade now, it's merely very public and acrimonious under Trump admin because that's his style.
I don't know if politburo thinks China's time has come, but never waste a good crisis. And it seems like US is committed to full blown containment, and the cost benefit analysis now of HK as financial instrument is superseded by HK being exploited to undermine the Chinese state. There's realist reasons to act sooner than later, HK protests have killed 1C2S and peaceful reunion with Taiwan already, at least for current generation. But reunion deadline is still 29 years away. A lot can happen during that time.
>Reality is, US has been trying to contain China for over a decade now, it's merely very public and acrimonious under Trump admin because that's his style.
Reality is, US has worked with the UK to contain China for almost 2 centuries. Much of the development and excess wealth in both countries is due to these actions.
I don't think that Chinese party was pushing for that.
I think it was local overzealous party apparatchiks that escalated the issue. But once escalated China will not back down as it would make them appear 'weak' so they have no choice but to push harder further escalating violence (although it appears that only pro-china side is using violence).
This whole thing could be spun by china as "those poor HK'er taited by capitalism need some time to adjust and see why 'communism' is better way forward.
Instead we have a serious violence brewing, and if Tienanmen was possible then anything is on the table.
Other theory is that China is trying something akin to mega city in that area thats why they need total control and now.
As a longtime Hong Kong resident, the worst part about this for me is the abject intellectual dishonesty - we already know that this is the real[1] beginning of the end of Hong Kong's autonomy, so they could at least have the decency to be straight with us.
CY Leung (the previous Chief Executive) said[2] the quiet part out loud yesterday:
> "Former Chief Executive CY Leung acknowledged on Sunday that Hong Kong’s annual June 4 candlelight vigil could be banned, along with the group that has organised the event for the past three decades, under a new national security law for the SAR to be drawn up by Beijing."
Putting that kind of censorship on the table is antithetical to the spirit of OC2S and the foundations that make Hong Kong great.
Hong Kong resident here as well, I am in no way CY Leung nor Carrie Lam fan. I am pro peaceful demonstration and believe police brutality is real and support independent inquiry.
But this is not exactly his quote when you read further than the first paragraph:
"Asked if slogans like “end one-party rule” – which is often chanted at the June 4 vigil – would be allowed in future, Leung demurred, saying there’s no need to get into the nitty gritty of legal definitions at this point, as this could ‘affect public feelings’ about the coming legislation."
"He also said whether the vigil itself could fall foul of the law could depend on what participants do even after the gathering is over – saying that anything that involves activities that are ‘separatist in nature’ may well be banned even in other countries."
He evaded the question when asked about the "end one-party rule" slogans, and repeat the line "separatist" will be banned when ask about the vigil.
Do I believe "end one-party rule" slogan will cause problem? I think so, and I do not support arresting people for just yelling the "end one-party rule" slogan. But I would like to see the detail of the law before I draw any conclusion.
I understand the nuance of his answer, but in my view the acknowledgement that something like that could even be possible is a tacit admission that this is not intended as an emergency fallback to be used only when absolutely necessary.
The smart response to that question (not that he had the best political instinct to begin with, but...) would've been the same kind of non-answer Carrie Lam gives: we cherish Hong Kong's freedom of speech, et cetera.
But he didn't say that, and even he has to know that answering the way he did will ring alarm bells. Talking up the need for legislation to address homemade bombs and property destruction is one thing; curtailing political speech in the name of security is quite another.
The thing is they can now use "it's a separatist movement" to shut anything down that's too inconvenient for them. For example, the last year of protests are being deemed "separatist" and caused by "foreign powers". Lam Cheng repeats this sentiment nearly every press conference.
In my view Hong Kong being a territory of China should be prepared for such laws and so should be it's residents. If people who have passports of other country, they have a choice if they don't agree with this change. This change was kept on back burner for a while until majority of the Chinese could reap the benefits of economic progress. In this case China's legislature has a backing of majority of the Chinese population, so the change will go through. China like Singapore is a meritocracy, not democracy, still for any policy change to be enacted it needs a tacit approval from majority Chinese.
So like in any democracy laws can be passed with majority, its the same for China.
Chinese legislature learned from the mistakes of USSR with perestroika and glasnost that until welfare and progress do not reach its population, it cannot have legitimacy. So they succeeded in it and USA cannot find a clear opening like USSR to break China. So they started firing guns on the shoulders of Hong Kong, Taiwan, India, Japan and other countries surrounding China, because the initial attempt did not succeed. In this game these countries will suffer immensely and USA will progress by selling them weapons and prop it's own economy.
Hopefully instead of questioning other country if every country look inward and secure to all its own people
JUSTICE, social, economic and political; LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship; EQUALITY of status and of opportunity; and to promote among them all FRATERNITY
assuring the dignity of the individual, the world will be a better place.
This would be a stronger argument if a majority of Hong Kongers had agreed that they wanted to be a Chinese territory in the first place. They didn't get to pick - two governments, neither of which the people chose, made the decision for them.
You can argue that they didn't choose to be a British colony either, but nevertheless they were and many generations have now grown up in that system and internalized those values.
> If people who have passports of other country, they have a choice if they don't agree with this change
What about the millions who don't have second passports or any real option to leave? They have no legal avenue to effect change; are they just supposed to sit quietly and take whatever gets thrown at them?
> This would be a stronger argument if a majority of Hong Kongers
Hong Kongers are like Beijinger or Shanghainese so if China legislature wants to enact security law for country, they need to consider whole China not specific city or province like any central government in most democracies (when it comes to national laws). Hong Kong being a territory of China what matters is the majority of Chinese support and in this case overwhelming number support this action. If Chinese National in Hong Kong (i.e. Hong Kongers) are in doubt can do China countrywide survey and understand the national pulse.
> who don’t have second passports.
Live the way minority live in most commonwealth democratic countries. Unless these minority go out to fight till end (like Kashmiris are fighting Indian government unilateral actions), which I doubt any is willing to do, my guess is most can look for asylum as option in countries which support their cause, I believe Taiwan already offered (only risk is their founding fathers also consider Taiwan as one China, so may be it might lead to conflict in future).
Gandhi style non-violent revolution won't work. If it weren't for COVID19 I'd say start the emmigration.
I don't think Hong Kong has the necessary weapons or violence to eject China. Chances are China would raze Hong Kong before allowing themselves to be seen as weak. Better to be seen as butchers. Who will stop it? Taiwan?
I don't think they know what 'terrorism' means. Civil disobedience because of rights being usurped !== terrorism, it === a probably futile but admirable 'attempt' to fight back at an oppressive regime.
27 comments
[ 110 ms ] story [ 1291 ms ] threadWell, at least the CCP is consistent.
I want to know who falls for this nonsense.
Absurd lack of introspection. What change was the catalyst for violence? Maybe start there and work backwards to see who is actually responsible (hint... it's the CCP).
China don’t want to make same mistake as USSR of ignoring the outside influence and USA succeeding in its mission to thwart another rising power with a different system like USS dream of Mikhail Gorbachev was broken by similar kind of violent protests.
China learned from mistakes of USSR and worked to let the economic benefits trickle down to general population and their people’s life is better than before. I agree they could have treated minorities better and given more rights but looking at conditions of minority in most democratic nation its a worldwide problem.
So do a better introspection and you will notice that answer for this violence and protest is very much linked to geopolitical rivalry especially with USA. There is an uncanny timings that Hong Kong protests flared up quite dramatically right before Taiwan elections, and then suddenly reduced in intensity.
Unlike Hong Kong, Taiwan has (thinly veiled) US military Support [1] that would put China in defacto WWIII territory should an attack occur--after this COVID coverup, the CCP and Xi are persona non grata on the international stage. If anything I hope the people of the Mainland realize the dystopia they have created (some do, most are too conditioned) and revolt before that happens as the CCP seems amendment for a suicidal act if they continue with such brazen violence in the area.
They've already pissed off every neighbor in the South China Sea which is essentially opening the doors for more US military bases and interventionism--which I abhor, but recognize as a reality.
1: https://www.cfr.org/in-brief/us-military-support-taiwan-what...
The justification is HK has been dragging their feet on implementing required National Security legislation. There was no set deadline, I think it was left open ended to easy transition. But it's been 23 years. Despite efforts ongoing for the past 10, now the sentiment at the top is they focused too long on 2 systems instead of 1 country. For the CCP, it's ridiculous they have no extradition process with a region under it's control, especially for recent "anti-state" actions. This was recognized a long time ago, hence the efforts at patriotic education and national security law ~10 years ago because the idea of identity and cultural divergence was a risk to longterm integration. Same with Uyghurs and Tibetans. Best to crush the lost generation now and start again.
As opposed to mainland efforts, which include a masse invasion of mainlanders into Hong Kong despite local opposition and continued warnings by Health Professionals?
China was the WORST of all for letting this spread in the first place rather then letting it remain localized in Wuhan when they knew of its outbreaks. Arresting and disappearing physicians and journalists who tried to warn the World in the process, and lying via the WHO and continuing to lie about the severity of COVID, as seen with the most recent outbreak of infections [1].
I grant you most Western nations policies were too little, too late by January 2020 as vectors from Wuhan had flown all over the World, but this is a pandemic caused directly by CCP policy to lie and manipulate and outright hijack the narrative of its cause and origin, which lies solely with China. And the blame lies solely on them for this occurring, which in my view having followed the Hong Kong protests since 2014 is analogous to Biological Warfare and they should be tried for Crimes Against Humanity.
> For the CCP, it's ridiculous they have no extradition process with a region under it's control, especially for recent "anti-state" actions. This was recognized a long time ago, hence the efforts at patriotic education and national security law ~10 years ago because the idea of identity and cultural divergence was a risk to longterm integration. Same with Uyghurs and Tibetans.
How is a supposed autonomous region supposed to conduct itself when its citizens can be detained for the same absurd violations that occur on the mainland? Which include disrespecting Xi on the internet? Especially for a region with Western Values and customs pertaining to Free Speech?
> Best to crush the lost generation now and start again.
What you call 'patriotic education' is Soviet Union style brainwashing and conditioning for State worship. Are you seriously advocating for masse genocide and internment prisons to usher in this supposed Glory age for the CCP? I'd call you a Wumao but you are straight up a CCP indoctrinated fool if you are saying what I think you are.
I'd try to rebuttal, but it seems entirely worthless to do so. But your response to Sesame Credit highlights why this needs to be stopped. And the Truth is the same model is being rolled out in Africa as well as the regions of 'Greater China.'
> Basically what Social Credit was designed to do: expel non-productive people or those that burden Chinese development [CCP Agenda] out of privileged areas and visibility. Indoctrinate new generation to comport to CCP values, replaced displaced dissenters with mainlanders [Colonialism].
Queue Trump + Bannon + bolton + Pompeo (all Chinahawks): tradewar -> huawei -> hk -> xinjiang -> covid -> tawian -> tech coldwar.
Reality is, US has been trying to contain China for over a decade now, it's merely very public and acrimonious under Trump admin because that's his style.
I don't know if politburo thinks China's time has come, but never waste a good crisis. And it seems like US is committed to full blown containment, and the cost benefit analysis now of HK as financial instrument is superseded by HK being exploited to undermine the Chinese state. There's realist reasons to act sooner than later, HK protests have killed 1C2S and peaceful reunion with Taiwan already, at least for current generation. But reunion deadline is still 29 years away. A lot can happen during that time.
Reality is, US has worked with the UK to contain China for almost 2 centuries. Much of the development and excess wealth in both countries is due to these actions.
I think it was local overzealous party apparatchiks that escalated the issue. But once escalated China will not back down as it would make them appear 'weak' so they have no choice but to push harder further escalating violence (although it appears that only pro-china side is using violence).
This whole thing could be spun by china as "those poor HK'er taited by capitalism need some time to adjust and see why 'communism' is better way forward.
Instead we have a serious violence brewing, and if Tienanmen was possible then anything is on the table.
Other theory is that China is trying something akin to mega city in that area thats why they need total control and now.
CY Leung (the previous Chief Executive) said[2] the quiet part out loud yesterday:
> "Former Chief Executive CY Leung acknowledged on Sunday that Hong Kong’s annual June 4 candlelight vigil could be banned, along with the group that has organised the event for the past three decades, under a new national security law for the SAR to be drawn up by Beijing."
Putting that kind of censorship on the table is antithetical to the spirit of OC2S and the foundations that make Hong Kong great.
1. The Causeway Bay booksellers were a foreshock.
2. https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/component/k2/1528043-20200524.h...
But this is not exactly his quote when you read further than the first paragraph:
"Asked if slogans like “end one-party rule” – which is often chanted at the June 4 vigil – would be allowed in future, Leung demurred, saying there’s no need to get into the nitty gritty of legal definitions at this point, as this could ‘affect public feelings’ about the coming legislation."
"He also said whether the vigil itself could fall foul of the law could depend on what participants do even after the gathering is over – saying that anything that involves activities that are ‘separatist in nature’ may well be banned even in other countries."
He evaded the question when asked about the "end one-party rule" slogans, and repeat the line "separatist" will be banned when ask about the vigil.
Do I believe "end one-party rule" slogan will cause problem? I think so, and I do not support arresting people for just yelling the "end one-party rule" slogan. But I would like to see the detail of the law before I draw any conclusion.
The smart response to that question (not that he had the best political instinct to begin with, but...) would've been the same kind of non-answer Carrie Lam gives: we cherish Hong Kong's freedom of speech, et cetera.
But he didn't say that, and even he has to know that answering the way he did will ring alarm bells. Talking up the need for legislation to address homemade bombs and property destruction is one thing; curtailing political speech in the name of security is quite another.
So like in any democracy laws can be passed with majority, its the same for China.
Chinese legislature learned from the mistakes of USSR with perestroika and glasnost that until welfare and progress do not reach its population, it cannot have legitimacy. So they succeeded in it and USA cannot find a clear opening like USSR to break China. So they started firing guns on the shoulders of Hong Kong, Taiwan, India, Japan and other countries surrounding China, because the initial attempt did not succeed. In this game these countries will suffer immensely and USA will progress by selling them weapons and prop it's own economy.
Hopefully instead of questioning other country if every country look inward and secure to all its own people JUSTICE, social, economic and political; LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship; EQUALITY of status and of opportunity; and to promote among them all FRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual, the world will be a better place.
You can argue that they didn't choose to be a British colony either, but nevertheless they were and many generations have now grown up in that system and internalized those values.
> If people who have passports of other country, they have a choice if they don't agree with this change
What about the millions who don't have second passports or any real option to leave? They have no legal avenue to effect change; are they just supposed to sit quietly and take whatever gets thrown at them?
Hong Kongers are like Beijinger or Shanghainese so if China legislature wants to enact security law for country, they need to consider whole China not specific city or province like any central government in most democracies (when it comes to national laws). Hong Kong being a territory of China what matters is the majority of Chinese support and in this case overwhelming number support this action. If Chinese National in Hong Kong (i.e. Hong Kongers) are in doubt can do China countrywide survey and understand the national pulse.
> who don’t have second passports.
Live the way minority live in most commonwealth democratic countries. Unless these minority go out to fight till end (like Kashmiris are fighting Indian government unilateral actions), which I doubt any is willing to do, my guess is most can look for asylum as option in countries which support their cause, I believe Taiwan already offered (only risk is their founding fathers also consider Taiwan as one China, so may be it might lead to conflict in future).
Gandhi style non-violent revolution won't work. If it weren't for COVID19 I'd say start the emmigration.
I don't think Hong Kong has the necessary weapons or violence to eject China. Chances are China would raze Hong Kong before allowing themselves to be seen as weak. Better to be seen as butchers. Who will stop it? Taiwan?