I like this a lot. Even the passive acknowledgment that technology and engineering do not exist in a bubble exclusive from the real world is meaningful. I do think the call to action to invest in our communities matters.
I know I'm N=1, but I have increased respect for the Rust organization.
I interpreted OP in the following way - US influence on tech shoehorn their politics in every other place. If something happens in Syria or other third world countries, it won't get recognition or will inconvenience people outside of their countries. So I am guessing OP is upset about that. I do think US influence on tech to this degree is bad given the recent years and political environment. Most of the web is controlled by US companies and affects people living in other countries.
I have seen a few mobs attacking people from other countries because they couldn't get the current political environment in US. And why would they? They don't live in the US and thus don't get everything happening in US.
If I may this does not apply here. The tweet was formulated as "Since issue X is more important than our tweets etc." so the criticism of "Also issue Y was more important" is not baseless.
This would not apply if they just supported the cause, or even decided to join the protest. For how international it can be the rust organization is intrinsically based in the US so it is understandable why they might want to make a statement about the current events.
Nevertheless the criticism has a basis in how the tweet was formulated, as the way it was written transforms a perfectly reasonable position of "we cannot and shouldn't fight every battle" into "that other issue was less important".
I would say this was a case where a bad argument was worse than no argument.
Just to repeat myself one more time if the tweet was only "In support of current protests we chose to stop tweeting until further notice" then your comment would be completely right.
I'm not sure what the problem is. No one can be can make a statement about any bad thing unless they make statements about about all bad things equally?
How about as part of the tech world you are part of the global community.
If you think "taking a stand against X is more important than sharing tech knowledge" then it needs be well thought out before you shut down your global "sharing tech knowledge" over that issue.
Or people like me think you are just part of the vileness the makes Twitter work where everyone is just part of the lynch mob, without thought jumping on, looking for outrage, and a reason to hurt people rather than help people.
Absolutely, and this occurs all the time. Something happens in the US especially, but perhaps also Western Europe and it is spun into a huge issue. Something worse happens somewhere and it is barely reported, if at all.
This is the sad irony of making a huge fuss of "black lives matters" when really they (or non-Armerican/non-Western) don't. What matters is the American village.
This is virtue-signalling and will actually anger, as it always does, many who are not part of the worthy few.
So, if YOUR family members were being hunted and murdered by a gang of thugs who operate with impunity, you would be wrong to be angry and fed up, as the 10th cousin of yours gets shot by this gang?
Why would this be about "being cool" and not the rage of being constantly targeted and NO systemic change since the Jim Crow law era?
It's been the same since Emmett Till, and frankly, your reaction is a bit hard to believe.
Can a human truly be ignorant of the facts on the ground in the USA of being black or white and the differing treatment you get?
I'll wager that you don't watch CNN, as you smell a little Foxy, but they had 2 reporter crews on the ground 1 block apart in Minneapolis, and the black anchor and his crew got arrested ON-AIR, and the white guys crew got politely asked to move after their credentials were checked.
Not related to the topic but seeing this posted under my username this caused me a LOT of confusion until I counted the number of times the letter “A” occurred.
Apparently, whoever is running that account wants to be part of the current thing and making an enemy of China might not be good for Rust's development.
I'm a bit bitter because they haven't given a fig about the minority most likely to be killed by law enforcement than any other racial or ethnic group and even use a license from an organization that domain squats on the very same minority.
I will not post direct links. Instead, I invite you to browse tags like #HongKongPoliceTerrorism, #HongKongPoliceBrutality, #HKpolice, etc. on Twitter.
We all know not to trust COVID death counts from China. HK police brutality is something like that. We have video evidence of a few murders. As for the actual count, no one knows.
And many major tech companies (Apple, Google, YouTube, Bytedance) were censoring the HK protestors with China, Even when a protestor was shot with a live round on Facebook Live.
Sounds like double standards with the current action with tech companies.
No not double standards. They are absolutely consistent standards. Zero principles. Pure profit motive. You don't have to run your company like that. This was a choice they have made. (Note that the profit motive isn't always the profit of the shareholders, it is the profit motive of the powerful inside the company).
Don't miss the point though. Cannot, under any circumstances be trusted. If they are sufficiently pressured they might do the right thing, or at least pretend to in public. Assume they are lying about everything until proven otherwise is a statement of the obvious.
> You're using an outdated document as your source.
You're right, the document is outdated. I've searched further and while I did find a few instances of police shooting at protesters, I didn't find deaths.
> I will not post direct links.
Please do instead. And no, I don't think twitter is a reliable source, twitter is an information battleground, you should know it.
> HK police brutality is something like that.
HK citizens have all the means and the interest to spread knowledge of police brutality in their protests. I don't think the comparison with China and covid holds any water (even assuming that what you say about China's covid numbers is true, as "everybody knows" is not a proof).
> I've searched further and while I did find a few instances of police shooting at protesters, I didn't find deaths.
Not to deemphasize the seriousness of an actual death, but the difference between shooting at protestors (especially if in a crowd, but I have not seen the video) and casualties is a matter of luck.
True of course. For example a police agent shot at close range a protester that was attacking him with an iron bar [1]. Luckily it seems the protester survived.
But again, over many months of mass demonstrations, sometimes violent, the number of zero or very few actual deaths is significant.
This is YOUR domestic problem, it hits home for many people. If Rust made the same for every injustice in the world, there would be no more tweets from them ever.
> In acknowledgement that taking a stand against police brutality is more important than sharing tech knowledge, this account will pause tweeting until further notice. Feel free to email the core team at: core@rust-lang.org.
So they've stopped using twitter for a week or two, but are still running an email list. That's nice to signal they're in solidarity I guess? I mean, what is the downside for them here? A for short time some casual Rust enthusiasts won't see news?
This is a "who shaved the barber?" puzzle; that situation should be forbidden by the content of the tweet - they're not allowed to tweet again until after they've given notice.
your noticing the notice and them resuming tweets are asynchronous. If we want to bring some logic inferences the only thing we can say is that their next tweet must say something about restarting to tweet.
Actually no, the only thing we could hold them up to is that before any tweet on the usual topics there should be a notice that normal tweets have begun again. It would be perfectly reasonable to now defend their position without a prior notice that they are going to also defend their position.
I’m assuming the notice exists independently of whether I see it or not. If the notice is a tweet then submitting the tweet happens before anyone could read it and the account has resumed tweeting before giving notice.
If the position is “we won’t tweet again until we do” then this is a meaningless announcement because that’s the default position of every twitter account.
The reason you are deriving a meaningless statement is because “we won’t tweet again until we do” is a terrible synopsis of that tweet. How about "we suspend how usual operation until further notice"?
If tomorrow morning they were to comment a justification of their choice that would still be outiside of the normal rust-related news the account concern itself and thus allowed.
Treating languages as naive logic statements is doing a disservice to both language and logic.
If it's doing a disservice to language and logic, why are you engaging with it talking about what would be "thus allowed"? Because it's fun, is why. I'm not confused by it, I'm taking their word as literal and asked a non-serious question that would go well with a thinking_face emoji.
Well the reason on my part is quite simple: I am quite pedantic on semantics :)
Another reason is that I would say I do not particularly like the part "let's take words literally stripping the intended meaning", my intention was at least to show an opposition to such interpretation.
If you were having just fun then don't take this as a criticism, but I will continue to oppose such interpretations :)
Not seeing anything similar on /r/rust, or the official forum. This twitter account barely tweets at all, it's like they want to send a message, but don't want to actually inconvenience anybody.
I agree - it's the definition of pandering: it serves no higher purpose than to gratify some group of people, without serving any deeper meaning.
I would like to know in what way this will actually influence change. Don't get me wrong, sincere displays of solidarity matter, but this isn't one. It's an effortless token gesture.
The negative use of the term "virtue signalling" honestly baffles me. Why on earth is publicly stating your beliefs is a bad thing? Communication is how ideas spread.
“Virtue signalling” refers specifically to a public performative show of caring not because a person/organization actually cares but wants some sort of social, financial, political, or personal benefit from giving off the appearance of caring.
Seems like to claim "Virtue Signaling" you have a.) "show of caring" but no evidence of b.) "wanting some benefit from giving the appearance".
And without any attempt of evidence or justification for claim of B, just dropping the accusation of virtual signaling comes across as merely trying to describe "openly not being an asshole" as if it were a bad thing.
How do we know the person behind the Rust twitter account doesn’t actually care? Because that’s the clear implication in labelling them a virtue signaller.
Few things I don't get from seeing twitter today and deciding to delete it for good.
1. What does unfollowing every white person show?
2. Why are there people with a lot of followers aka influencers working like hired goon going under every post on multiple high profile accounts calling for unfollow because someone said something controversial? Why are they mentioning people unrelated to this to get them to unfollow?
Why are all of them following each other? It's pretty much a mob...it seems.
What does telling companies to unfollow a person, de-platforming a person from the developer community show? I am deeply concerned about the first part. Seriously, asking companies to unfollow you on twitter? C'mon, I can't be the only one who finds that ridiculous.
I get retweeting on your profile once but few people I won't mention spent literally their weekend doing this. Is this modern-day ex-communication?
3. Am I becoming racist or this guide is actually shit [0][1]
Why are there separate guides for different genders and races?
Why are so many prominent figures retweeting this and telling to follow? (just check retweets and replies)
Why are they still following white people after retweeting this?
What's even the point? Can someone explain how does this solve the issues if any?
What will be solved if you stop tweeting for a week or so?
All I know is that I am separating myself from the usual "dev" community. Insane shit everywhere and people are truly showing their colors when they retweeting calls to kill human life - be it a cop or not. And if you don't agree, they are taking you down from dev platforms - woah.
The information age intrinsically makes it harder for this kind of statements.
On almost all topics we are bounded to be ignorant of some important facets, and the sheer size of the internet means that many other will be ignorant/knowledgeable on different facet of any topic.
In a sense this means that most endorsements of public topics by an organization/individual will incur in a certain level of "what about these negative sides of that thing"; this happens especially if there was not a previous synchronizing pressure for that topic.
Once upon a time it was a lot easier for social clusters to be similarly ignorant/knowledgeable on any given topic.
As often happens with progress we lose something and we gain something.
I would assume that it is in the same rationale as "taking a minute of silence". It is a statement and a public ritual to both express and show seriousness of an event.
Obviously they are not the same thing, but it is not trivial to find a precise rationale under things that have no need to be 100% rational, such as showing public support.
I know this will get accused of being whataboutism, but isn't it a bizarre sort of leftist chauvinism to make gestures like this about issues in ones own country in spite of similar things happening across the world on a weekly basis - especially for a project that touts itself as very international in scope?
20 dead people in a week-end. Apparently, Blacks lives don't matter that much in Chicago. I guess it's only in the particular case that a white cop brutalizes a black suspect, in America, that the entire fucking world, from Germany to Tokyo, needs to be indignant, for some reason. It's totally organic and not a political manipulation at all /s
Politically manipulated like astroturf suburban gun nuts showing up armed and demanding an end to public health measures who were being actively orchestrated by Hair Twitler's thumbs?
Regarding your statement: No. the scope and genuine rage of it is indicative of just how NOT organized it is.
You wouldn't understand that, however, if your knee-jerk reaction is minimize racist American policing practices.
(which aren't suprising, given the origins of SOME American police forces in militias hunting runaway slaves, and others origins in working security for the great industrial "robber barons", betcha didn't know that.)
Your dismissal of global visceral POINTED anger over police violence-with-impunity ignores
1) the scores of extremely well known black victims of police aggression that didn't result in any change.
Philando Castile comes to mind, Freddy Gray, Eric Garner, Michael Brown.
People are FED UP, and the issue isn't a light one like "i want a haircut" but rather, "I want not to be murdered by cops by the simple virtue of my skin color"
No, it makes absolutely no fucking sense.
I can guarantee you that the people in New Zealand are not fed up about whatever the hell happens in the bloody MINNEAPOLIS police department.
Your entire narrative makes no sense and it's just a well-organized, global form of race baiting that is going to end up doing the exact opposite of what you claim to support. It's going to further divide communities along racial lines until eventual separation. It makes sense if you claim to follow the ideas of Malcolm X, but not if you think what you are doing is in the spirit of Martin Luther King.
this make absolutely no sense. as one reply pointed out, are they going to shutdown their feed every time something happens? maybe i'm just too involved in AA, so i like the whole concept of "we have no opinions on outside issues". rust is doing the opposite of this. to me, if the individual core team members want to take stance and not tweet, that's fine, but the organization as a whole shouldn't.
Python Software Foundation's Twitter account did the same. I don't know how many more made a stance, but I needed to learn Wagtail CMS and they too went dark on their website. Maybe not all tech is political, but open source, freedom being one of its foundations, sure is.
That's why when I modify a free software package for my own personal use and gratification, I'm not forced to distribute the changes to anyone, not even upstream.
67 comments
[ 2.3 ms ] story [ 118 ms ] threadI know I'm N=1, but I have increased respect for the Rust organization.
Replying to @rustlang
"The world is bigger than just the USA."
There are a lot of problems in the world, Syria pops into mind or a billion people who can't fully feed their kids.
But they are not a viral Twitter sensation. Gotta be 'cool'
I have seen a few mobs attacking people from other countries because they couldn't get the current political environment in US. And why would they? They don't live in the US and thus don't get everything happening in US.
This would not apply if they just supported the cause, or even decided to join the protest. For how international it can be the rust organization is intrinsically based in the US so it is understandable why they might want to make a statement about the current events.
Nevertheless the criticism has a basis in how the tweet was formulated, as the way it was written transforms a perfectly reasonable position of "we cannot and shouldn't fight every battle" into "that other issue was less important".
I would say this was a case where a bad argument was worse than no argument.
Just to repeat myself one more time if the tweet was only "In support of current protests we chose to stop tweeting until further notice" then your comment would be completely right.
If you think "taking a stand against X is more important than sharing tech knowledge" then it needs be well thought out before you shut down your global "sharing tech knowledge" over that issue.
Or people like me think you are just part of the vileness the makes Twitter work where everyone is just part of the lynch mob, without thought jumping on, looking for outrage, and a reason to hurt people rather than help people.
This is the sad irony of making a huge fuss of "black lives matters" when really they (or non-Armerican/non-Western) don't. What matters is the American village.
This is virtue-signalling and will actually anger, as it always does, many who are not part of the worthy few.
Why would this be about "being cool" and not the rage of being constantly targeted and NO systemic change since the Jim Crow law era?
It's been the same since Emmett Till, and frankly, your reaction is a bit hard to believe. Can a human truly be ignorant of the facts on the ground in the USA of being black or white and the differing treatment you get?
I'll wager that you don't watch CNN, as you smell a little Foxy, but they had 2 reporter crews on the ground 1 block apart in Minneapolis, and the black anchor and his crew got arrested ON-AIR, and the white guys crew got politely asked to move after their credentials were checked.
I'm a bit bitter because they haven't given a fig about the minority most likely to be killed by law enforcement than any other racial or ethnic group and even use a license from an organization that domain squats on the very same minority.
[edit: yep same as it ever was]
Source:
U.S. Department of State
https://www.state.gov/reports/2019-country-reports-on-human-...
"There were no credible reports that the government or its agents committed arbitrary or unlawful killings."
Edit: hate to say that, but why instead of clicking the damn downvote button don't you go and actually check if there are recorded deaths?
I will not post direct links. Instead, I invite you to browse tags like #HongKongPoliceTerrorism, #HongKongPoliceBrutality, #HKpolice, etc. on Twitter.
We all know not to trust COVID death counts from China. HK police brutality is something like that. We have video evidence of a few murders. As for the actual count, no one knows.
Sounds like double standards with the current action with tech companies.
Don't miss the point though. Cannot, under any circumstances be trusted. If they are sufficiently pressured they might do the right thing, or at least pretend to in public. Assume they are lying about everything until proven otherwise is a statement of the obvious.
You're right, the document is outdated. I've searched further and while I did find a few instances of police shooting at protesters, I didn't find deaths.
> I will not post direct links.
Please do instead. And no, I don't think twitter is a reliable source, twitter is an information battleground, you should know it.
> HK police brutality is something like that.
HK citizens have all the means and the interest to spread knowledge of police brutality in their protests. I don't think the comparison with China and covid holds any water (even assuming that what you say about China's covid numbers is true, as "everybody knows" is not a proof).
Not to deemphasize the seriousness of an actual death, but the difference between shooting at protestors (especially if in a crowd, but I have not seen the video) and casualties is a matter of luck.
But again, over many months of mass demonstrations, sometimes violent, the number of zero or very few actual deaths is significant.
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/02/world/asia/hong-kong-shoo...
-- @rustlang
Actually no, the only thing we could hold them up to is that before any tweet on the usual topics there should be a notice that normal tweets have begun again. It would be perfectly reasonable to now defend their position without a prior notice that they are going to also defend their position.
If the position is “we won’t tweet again until we do” then this is a meaningless announcement because that’s the default position of every twitter account.
If tomorrow morning they were to comment a justification of their choice that would still be outiside of the normal rust-related news the account concern itself and thus allowed.
Treating languages as naive logic statements is doing a disservice to both language and logic.
Another reason is that I would say I do not particularly like the part "let's take words literally stripping the intended meaning", my intention was at least to show an opposition to such interpretation.
If you were having just fun then don't take this as a criticism, but I will continue to oppose such interpretations :)
I would like to know in what way this will actually influence change. Don't get me wrong, sincere displays of solidarity matter, but this isn't one. It's an effortless token gesture.
This is entirely based on assumptions about who wrote that tweet and how that account is manages.
And without any attempt of evidence or justification for claim of B, just dropping the accusation of virtual signaling comes across as merely trying to describe "openly not being an asshole" as if it were a bad thing.
1. What does unfollowing every white person show?
2. Why are there people with a lot of followers aka influencers working like hired goon going under every post on multiple high profile accounts calling for unfollow because someone said something controversial? Why are they mentioning people unrelated to this to get them to unfollow?
Why are all of them following each other? It's pretty much a mob...it seems.
What does telling companies to unfollow a person, de-platforming a person from the developer community show? I am deeply concerned about the first part. Seriously, asking companies to unfollow you on twitter? C'mon, I can't be the only one who finds that ridiculous.
I get retweeting on your profile once but few people I won't mention spent literally their weekend doing this. Is this modern-day ex-communication?
3. Am I becoming racist or this guide is actually shit [0][1]
0] https://twitter.com/TatianaTMac/status/1266258250489454599
1] https://tatianamac.com/posts/white-guyde/
Why are there separate guides for different genders and races?
Why are so many prominent figures retweeting this and telling to follow? (just check retweets and replies)
Why are they still following white people after retweeting this?
What's even the point? Can someone explain how does this solve the issues if any?
What will be solved if you stop tweeting for a week or so?
All I know is that I am separating myself from the usual "dev" community. Insane shit everywhere and people are truly showing their colors when they retweeting calls to kill human life - be it a cop or not. And if you don't agree, they are taking you down from dev platforms - woah.
The information age intrinsically makes it harder for this kind of statements.
On almost all topics we are bounded to be ignorant of some important facets, and the sheer size of the internet means that many other will be ignorant/knowledgeable on different facet of any topic.
In a sense this means that most endorsements of public topics by an organization/individual will incur in a certain level of "what about these negative sides of that thing"; this happens especially if there was not a previous synchronizing pressure for that topic.
Once upon a time it was a lot easier for social clusters to be similarly ignorant/knowledgeable on any given topic.
As often happens with progress we lose something and we gain something.
Obviously they are not the same thing, but it is not trivial to find a precise rationale under things that have no need to be 100% rational, such as showing public support.
I will move to Golang for a week.
20 dead people in a week-end. Apparently, Blacks lives don't matter that much in Chicago. I guess it's only in the particular case that a white cop brutalizes a black suspect, in America, that the entire fucking world, from Germany to Tokyo, needs to be indignant, for some reason. It's totally organic and not a political manipulation at all /s
Regarding your statement: No. the scope and genuine rage of it is indicative of just how NOT organized it is. You wouldn't understand that, however, if your knee-jerk reaction is minimize racist American policing practices. (which aren't suprising, given the origins of SOME American police forces in militias hunting runaway slaves, and others origins in working security for the great industrial "robber barons", betcha didn't know that.)
Your dismissal of global visceral POINTED anger over police violence-with-impunity ignores 1) the scores of extremely well known black victims of police aggression that didn't result in any change. Philando Castile comes to mind, Freddy Gray, Eric Garner, Michael Brown.
People are FED UP, and the issue isn't a light one like "i want a haircut" but rather, "I want not to be murdered by cops by the simple virtue of my skin color"
Make sense?
Your entire narrative makes no sense and it's just a well-organized, global form of race baiting that is going to end up doing the exact opposite of what you claim to support. It's going to further divide communities along racial lines until eventual separation. It makes sense if you claim to follow the ideas of Malcolm X, but not if you think what you are doing is in the spirit of Martin Luther King.
Yeah, no thanks. And much less when you're taking a side. I mean, I know you're a Mozilla project after all, but eeek.
0. https://twitter.com/ThePSF/status/1267591714925133825
1. https://wagtail.io/
That's why when I modify a free software package for my own personal use and gratification, I'm not forced to distribute the changes to anyone, not even upstream.
Archive.org's copies, like the one at https://web.archive.org/web/20190212143902/https://wagtail.i... , seems usable. Plus, things like http://docs.wagtail.io/en/v2.4/ are still live.
As long as it is about American politics. Shame.