I know from another thread about how the police use indiscriminate violence instead of de-escalation that this is totally ok with about half the people here. That half can go fuck themselves
We've banned this account for repeatedly violating HN's guidelines. You simply can't do this on this site, no matter how right you are or feel you are, and you've done it repeatedly already.
"Shadowbanned" means banning someone without telling them. I told you in the comment you're replying to.
It's impossible to answer every email right away. You'll certainly get an answer, but I can't promise when. If you saw the catastrophic mess that is the HN inbox, you'd understand why.
Forcing/encouraging the populace to wear masks, thus anonymising them, at the same time that many of them have lost their jobs and are unable to enjoy a social life, may not have been a good idea...
There was a struggle to get George Floyd out of his car, and again into a police vehicle. Bodycam footage from the police, or a statement from them, has not been provided. We don't have the full facts.
We know that George Floyd was a repeat criminal, with a record of armed violence, who was being arrested for another criminal act.
Having a knee on his neck so long? Police incompetence.
Killed by a Minnesota police officer fast-tracked through cadet training for diversity reasons.
Where were the protests for her? Why is it just regular police error when a white Australian woman dies in the USA, after having done nothing, but a huge injustice and evidence of massive inequality when a man with a history of violence, in the process of resisting arrest, is killed by the same incompetent police force?
Because there is no systemic pattern of cops killing Australian women, over and over and over and over again and not being charged at all. The police officer responsible was immediately fired and charged with murder, of which he was convicted [0]. Justice was served, what would people protest for?
Compare that to Floyd, where it took sustained protests to get the main perpetrator arrested.
When something terrible happens once, it is sad. When it happens over and over again, its not "bad apples" but a systemic problem that needs to be fixed. The protests are about similar incidents (cops killing black Americans) happening throughout the country. The people who protest see that reality and are moved enough to get out there and do something, anything in the face of that injustice.
The basic governing principles of the criminal justice system in the US is that the punishment should fit the crime. Regardless of however flawed human being George Floyd was, he did not deserve to die as he did. Many, many Black Americans did not deserve to die.
Please educate yourself if you're genuinely interested in learning about the reason why so much of the country feels the need to come out and protest during a deadly pandemic.
"In humans, an association between the 2R allele of the VNTR region of the gene and an increase in the likelihood of committing serious crime or violence has been found"
"5.5% of Black men, 0.1% of Caucasian men, and 0.00067% of Asian men carried the 2R allele"
ReticentVole believes the penalty for a criminal act is death.
> but a huge injustice and evidence of massive inequality when a man with a history of violence, in the process of resisting arrest, is killed by the same incompetent police force
Oh, you're an all-lives matter person! Why didn't you say so? Go fuck yourself.
We have masks and an economic crisis in Europe but we don't have street riots.
The problem here is (other than underlying systemic issues) a pretty stupid attitude from the administration which went for confrontation rather than accomodation.
That would be interesting, considering the feeble drone would have to fly against the massive rotor downwash/draft to get near them. Could also be they have some sort of wire mesh against foreign object intake installed...
Anyone seriously considering this is sorely mistaken.
When dictators consolidate their power, they purge their administration of anyone who does not pledge their supreme loyalty to them. The principled ones of course quit immediately, but without a doubt there will be significant number of people that remain. They are only human, and they have to deal with exactly the same problem that anyone else quitting their job faces in America today. Their minds will rationalize the actions, the Dictator will provide ample bogeymen as targets of hatred.
And even if they DO disobey an order, an American where the military no longer obeys the Civilian Administration... however terrible that might be, would be a dangerous line to cross. All bets are off at that point: the American military is the largest, best equipped fighting force the world has ever seen. Whoever commands it instantly commands immeasurable amount of power.
Anyone who's been around large helicopters knows exactly how much this is about a show of force, and has nothing to do with keeping the peace. The last thing you do with a large helicopter if you care about people's safety is hover over them.
This is why I did not enjoy the "health care flyovers" recently. Normally when we have flyovers, it's meant to say "look at all the might we have to use in protecting you". Even that's not particularly appealing, knowing that that might is going to be turned against most likely undeserving people. But the recent flyovers really felt like "look what we could be using against you". And now here we are.
The alarm bells of fascism are ringing loudly, are the American people listening?
It started with violating the rights of non-citizens by throwing them and their families in cages. Its building on centuries of black oppression and a nationwide corps of officers lead to believe certain class of Americans to be less than human.
Today, the president used American Military-lite in a completely unnecessary display of machismo, to terrorize groups of peaceful Citizen protesters and continues to do so by semi-wartime methods. The CBP has offered its help in brutalizing another class of people; these are the same group of people who have been let loose on border communities with little repercussions for their actions.
Unchecked, the fascism will grow until there is nothing left to contain it.
Its clear to the present occupant of the White House that winning fairly is not possible. Using emergencies as a pretext for grabbing on to power is an entirely predicable playbook, and yet Americans seem utterly powerless to stop what they know in their hearts is going to happen.
Maybe you are right and I won't pooh-pooh anybody who participates, but what about when Freddie Grey was killed? Similar thing happened in 2015, protests around the country and that didn't seem to accomplish anything. The protests now are much larger it seems this time, but unless they go on for a while (which I hope they do), I just don't see anything changing. It seems like law enforcement isn't going to have a sudden change of heart because people are telling them they are wrong and local politicians don't seem to be effective at enacting change in their police departments.
> Have you tried prolonged, painful protest? That’s what I am preparing myself to do, mind, body, and soul.
Honesty feeling hopeful for the first time in awhile, bullish on protest and I think that tech can be leveraged in a significant way
Looking over your posts in this thread, you seem eager to deploy censorship and violence so long as it’s against people you disagree with.
Surely that could never turn around on you! Right?
Think past your nose on this, think of there were even “sides” here and Obama was president and some far right people were causing riots, would you really want them to use censorship via “platform advantages” and violence of painful protest? Can you imagine no scenario where you aren’t on the side of the majority?
Authoritarianism is on the rise and with the US, China, and Russia becoming ever more powerful I’m having a hard time imagining a future without it. It’s depressing.
I don't understand this. The warning signs of the current administration's fascist-adjacent policies have been here for four years. Please do not pretend that it's now that Americans cannot heed those signs due to protests, especially when the protests are partially in response to the current administration.
More that many Americans will now see fascism as providing a certain method of protection. Plenty of authoritarians are popularly elected based on some threat.
I find this to be a much more compelling commentary and concern than the one I replied to. If what you mention does happen, it will be legitimately frightening.
At least when authoritarianism hit my home country (Venezuela), we could leave.
I've told friends that I have a sinking feeling a Tiananmen Square-like event might happen soon in the US. I predict that there will be people online arguing the semantics of what constitutes a "massacre" or a "tragedy."
Destroying businesses and disrupting the lives of innocent people is not how you convince them to go along with whatever you want. Is that how they will proceed from now on whenever they need something from the people? What a bunch of garbage.
The vast majority of people in those cities would've already supported them. And they bite that hand. Often hands just as brown/black as theirs...they don't care, because what they seek is power, not justice.
The looters and violent people at these events are distinct groups from the protesters.
There are many groups, but the most effective one is a right wing movement that is trying to start a second civil war by touching off race riots. Apparently international anarchists, and foreign governments’ misinformation campaigns are also making strong showings. Trump claims Antifa is too (though he has not provided any evidence to back that up).
Some of the right wingers have been caught with bombs, etc. Some have been firing weapons into crowds in an attempt to get police to shoot innocent people (and at least one person in Louisville was killed this way)
All of the major US news (except fox) networks are covering this continuously and showing pictures of the perpetrators, etc.
If you don’t believe their reporters, they also usually live stream the protests from the ground and the sky, so you can see for yourself. They covered a half dozen cities tonight.
I am certain to be in the minority, but how is this much different than seeing humvee and military armored police vehicles rolling down streets as of late? The helicopters were performing recon and visuals, again how is that different than police helicopters in LA that follow high speed chases? This particular helicopter story feels overblown and out of touch.
> at least under Federal Aviation Administration rules, this maneuver was very illegal.
> § 91.119 Minimum safe altitudes: (b) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft.
> New York Times reporter Thomas Gibbons-Neff said that one of the Black Hawks had flown so low that it broke a large branch off a tree with its rotor wash, which fell, but thankfully didn't injure anyone on the ground below.
I don't disagree. We're descending into authoritarianism due to the utter lack of checks and balances. I was just responding to the comment above that questioned if the news was "overblown". Doesn't sound overblown to me or the various people reporting on it.
Look, I want to be clear. I think the Democrats had a case, but didn't pick their issues correctly at the impeachment. I also think the Republicans completely missed the point that their candidate had totally shattered pretty much every historical bound of decency in terms of responsible, dignified behavior as expected of a President. If that vote had been much closer, we might see a bit more restraint coming from the President's office right now. That didn't happen.
I just want to be clear that there is nothing that makes me more nervous than a President who is shown no sign of being second guessed by the Legislature, especially during a crisis. It wouldn't even matter if roles were reversed and it were Hillary in the White House with Democrats in control of the Senate. I'd still be calling them out.
It is so easy to get carried away by the reins of power. Most people do not realize just how well equipped the Government is to go full authoritarian if it came down to it. The only thing that has kept that from happening has been our value system doing a fairly decent job of keeping that tendency in check. Or at least it seemed to be prior to 2001.
You can take a look at the videos yourself. Go on snapchat maps, click near the WH. That[0] is not "recon and visuals," that is a military helicopter intimidating US civilians on our own soil.
Last night these "peaceful" protestors burned a church directly across from the White House. The Lincoln memorial was defaced. The World War 2 memorial was defaced. The military has to protect the capital.
Lol. Absolutely unnecessary use of police brutality against minority communities and peaceful protestors leads to more intense protestors and violence. And your response is “you’ve lost the plot”.
Stand this one out. You have no understanding of the situation on the ground.
Playing devil's advocate, didn't they call in the national guard though? That's what the national guard is. I guess I am not surprised at seeing military grade machines.
Last night they attempted to burn a church directly across from the White House. These are domestic acts of terror. The military's highest responsibility is to protect the nation.
Arson is a crime, but a crime worthy of the US military? That feels insane.
The choppers were by all accounts being used against groups of peaceful protesters who were nowhere near the church in question. They were not the ones involved in the arson.
The emergencies are all in Democrat run cities, where there's complete anarchy. Businesses are being smashed in, apartments are being burn to the ground. A world war 2 memorial was defaced. A church was burned. The Lincoln memorial was defaced. Macy's, the host of the Thanksgiving parade, has been completely raided and destroyed in NYC. Hundreds of Businesses were destroyed in Minneapolis, many who serve minority neighborhoods, provide jobs and essential services, completely wrecked. By my count 20+ cities have experienced intense destruction in the last 72 hours. I'm sorry but the cop who supposedly caused this all has already been arrested and transferred to maximum security prison where he awaits murder charges. If that's not enough for you, then you don't give a damn about justice. Meanwhile you cannot let domestic terror reign. That is not justice. That's chaos.
Don't distract from what's happening my friend. The American President had absolutely no need to let loose the military on peaceful protestors as he did today, simply to get a photo op in front of a church.
The majority of the protests across the country have been peaceful, with a minority engaging in rioting and looting. If that's what you choose to focus on, then you don't give a damn about justice.
Yes I choose to focus on that. It's destroying the fabric of these cities. It will cost these cities decades to come back, if ever, from the decimation. On the other side of this is poverty, ruin, and gang violence. That's what happens when you burn the core of your city down.
I also see hateful graffiti sprayed all over my city about cops, despite the fact that the vast majority of them are peaceful and lawful and mean well for their communities. That seems to be lost on people as mob mentality has taken over.
I'm really sorry that your precious neighborhood has been defaced by graffiti. Its certainly as serious as the police systematically killing the people of non-white communities.
> It's destroying the fabric of these cities. It will cost these cities decades to come back, if ever, from the decimation. On the other side of this is poverty, ruin, and gang violence.
There is absolutely no evidence of anything close to that level of destruction of property. The majority of protests have been peaceful. And you seem to have no idea about what causes poverty, ruin and gang violence (hint: its not the destruction of Macy's stores).
Latino gangs are literally getting involved now and starting to attack black people and other people who are on their turf for ruining their business. This is no longer simply a protest. Not when you have the ingredients for a race war. It's not as trivial as the destruction of a Macy's store.
If you can’t understand the pain of black communities across America suffering from centuries of oppression and police brutality, then you have no soul.
Stand this one out. You’re hilariously out of touch with what’s important to societies.
> to terrorize groups of peaceful Citizen protesters
Peaceful?! Wow...
> The alarm bells of fascism are ringing loudly, are the American people listening?
What are you listening/smoking, dude? Fascism is shown by liberals (aka socialists/communists) who are trying to get as much power over people they can manage (this is classic definition of fascims, btw); or 'antifa' movement who exactly resembles Hitler's brown-shirts.
It was well orchestrated attempt to enter White House premises by f*king peaceful protesters. In other cities there are some peaceful protests daytime that turns riot come night, mostly by low life scam who couldn't care less about justice.
Leaked audio of Trump call with Secretary of Defense essentially ordering use of force and control, using the term war in reference to protest/LE/Natl Guard relations, 3rd link down on https://linktr.ee/jonalmostfree
I just finished it, what is the part exactly is the problem? What is the timestamp of the offensive part?
Considering that it was a private administration call they didn’t intend to be public, I’m not sure “you gotta arrest these people” over and over is wrong.
I must have missed it in my first pass, can you help me out with a timestamp?
I'm not an American but a Canadian who has Canadian friends down there. People who would never have considered buying guns up here are purchase one per family member down there because of the riots.
Laser pointers are about to be bought out everywhere if this keeps going around the states. What is honestly the point of this? Show of force? Cool. Lots of people look scared based on these videos. Not.
If you use a laser pointer on an airborne vehicles cockpits, you are attacking them lethally and must expect lethal reaction also. Please DO NOT do this.
> If you perform low-altitude flyovers while citizens exercise their right to assembly, you are attacking them lethally and must expect lethal reaction also. Please DO NOT do this.
Don't justify an exaggerated response like this. A laser pointer is not lethal. There is no comparison between a laser pointer and the armaments on a military helicopter.
You underestimate the risk. Targetting a laser into the cockpit has a non-negligible chance of dazzling/blinding the pilots, possibly with lethal outcome. The light beam will refract and scatter through the glass/transparent plastic.
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If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future.
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If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future.
It's impossible to answer every email right away. You'll certainly get an answer, but I can't promise when. If you saw the catastrophic mess that is the HN inbox, you'd understand why.
We know that George Floyd was a repeat criminal, with a record of armed violence, who was being arrested for another criminal act.
Having a knee on his neck so long? Police incompetence.
You know what else is police incompetence, by the same police force? The death of Justine Damond: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Justine_Damond
Killed by a Minnesota police officer fast-tracked through cadet training for diversity reasons.
Where were the protests for her? Why is it just regular police error when a white Australian woman dies in the USA, after having done nothing, but a huge injustice and evidence of massive inequality when a man with a history of violence, in the process of resisting arrest, is killed by the same incompetent police force?
Compare that to Floyd, where it took sustained protests to get the main perpetrator arrested.
When something terrible happens once, it is sad. When it happens over and over again, its not "bad apples" but a systemic problem that needs to be fixed. The protests are about similar incidents (cops killing black Americans) happening throughout the country. The people who protest see that reality and are moved enough to get out there and do something, anything in the face of that injustice.
The basic governing principles of the criminal justice system in the US is that the punishment should fit the crime. Regardless of however flawed human being George Floyd was, he did not deserve to die as he did. Many, many Black Americans did not deserve to die.
Please educate yourself if you're genuinely interested in learning about the reason why so much of the country feels the need to come out and protest during a deadly pandemic.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Justine_Damond#Tri...
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-...
There is no evidence of racial disparities in officer-involved shootings:
https://www.pnas.org/content/116/32/15877
Black men are killed by a police at a higher rate because they commit crime at a higher rate.
And some of the reason for that is genetic:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoamine_oxidase_A
"In humans, an association between the 2R allele of the VNTR region of the gene and an increase in the likelihood of committing serious crime or violence has been found"
"5.5% of Black men, 0.1% of Caucasian men, and 0.00067% of Asian men carried the 2R allele"
ReticentVole believes the penalty for a criminal act is death.
> but a huge injustice and evidence of massive inequality when a man with a history of violence, in the process of resisting arrest, is killed by the same incompetent police force
Oh, you're an all-lives matter person! Why didn't you say so? Go fuck yourself.
The problem here is (other than underlying systemic issues) a pretty stupid attitude from the administration which went for confrontation rather than accomodation.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/paris-riots-...
And anyway there's still a lot of space between this and the army shooting on the crowd (which happened in many places in the world historically).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings
When dictators consolidate their power, they purge their administration of anyone who does not pledge their supreme loyalty to them. The principled ones of course quit immediately, but without a doubt there will be significant number of people that remain. They are only human, and they have to deal with exactly the same problem that anyone else quitting their job faces in America today. Their minds will rationalize the actions, the Dictator will provide ample bogeymen as targets of hatred.
And even if they DO disobey an order, an American where the military no longer obeys the Civilian Administration... however terrible that might be, would be a dangerous line to cross. All bets are off at that point: the American military is the largest, best equipped fighting force the world has ever seen. Whoever commands it instantly commands immeasurable amount of power.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings#Aftermath...
This is why I did not enjoy the "health care flyovers" recently. Normally when we have flyovers, it's meant to say "look at all the might we have to use in protecting you". Even that's not particularly appealing, knowing that that might is going to be turned against most likely undeserving people. But the recent flyovers really felt like "look what we could be using against you". And now here we are.
Except in Egypt the military did it to show that were with the protestors and getting ready to swap the dictator out.
It started with violating the rights of non-citizens by throwing them and their families in cages. Its building on centuries of black oppression and a nationwide corps of officers lead to believe certain class of Americans to be less than human.
Today, the president used American Military-lite in a completely unnecessary display of machismo, to terrorize groups of peaceful Citizen protesters and continues to do so by semi-wartime methods. The CBP has offered its help in brutalizing another class of people; these are the same group of people who have been let loose on border communities with little repercussions for their actions.
Unchecked, the fascism will grow until there is nothing left to contain it.
Its clear to the present occupant of the White House that winning fairly is not possible. Using emergencies as a pretext for grabbing on to power is an entirely predicable playbook, and yet Americans seem utterly powerless to stop what they know in their hearts is going to happen.
Honesty feeling hopeful for the first time in awhile, bullish on protest and I think that tech can be leveraged in a significant way
Looking over your posts in this thread, you seem eager to deploy censorship and violence so long as it’s against people you disagree with.
Surely that could never turn around on you! Right?
Think past your nose on this, think of there were even “sides” here and Obama was president and some far right people were causing riots, would you really want them to use censorship via “platform advantages” and violence of painful protest? Can you imagine no scenario where you aren’t on the side of the majority?
At least when authoritarianism hit my home country (Venezuela), we could leave.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings#Aftermath...
I don't see it as a crazy idea that shooting some protestors would be popular.
I hope we never get to that.
The vast majority of people in those cities would've already supported them. And they bite that hand. Often hands just as brown/black as theirs...they don't care, because what they seek is power, not justice.
There are many groups, but the most effective one is a right wing movement that is trying to start a second civil war by touching off race riots. Apparently international anarchists, and foreign governments’ misinformation campaigns are also making strong showings. Trump claims Antifa is too (though he has not provided any evidence to back that up).
Some of the right wingers have been caught with bombs, etc. Some have been firing weapons into crowds in an attempt to get police to shoot innocent people (and at least one person in Louisville was killed this way)
All of the major US news (except fox) networks are covering this continuously and showing pictures of the perpetrators, etc.
If you don’t believe their reporters, they also usually live stream the protests from the ground and the sky, so you can see for yourself. They covered a half dozen cities tonight.
> § 91.119 Minimum safe altitudes: (b) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft.
> New York Times reporter Thomas Gibbons-Neff said that one of the Black Hawks had flown so low that it broke a large branch off a tree with its rotor wash, which fell, but thankfully didn't injure anyone on the ground below.
The Senate abdicated their responsibility and chance to hold Trump accountable. This is the outcome.
I don't like the looks of either side of this bloody conflict.
I just want to be clear that there is nothing that makes me more nervous than a President who is shown no sign of being second guessed by the Legislature, especially during a crisis. It wouldn't even matter if roles were reversed and it were Hillary in the White House with Democrats in control of the Senate. I'd still be calling them out.
It is so easy to get carried away by the reins of power. Most people do not realize just how well equipped the Government is to go full authoritarian if it came down to it. The only thing that has kept that from happening has been our value system doing a fairly decent job of keeping that tendency in check. Or at least it seemed to be prior to 2001.
[0]: https://s.sc-cdn.net/1KO38_D-saomzlpaMCGJvY96UMxYdW5Lsb-9MzD...
And this is a fire and police department set ablaze in Minneapolis: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8UO8ppmbjK8
You've lost the plot.
Stand this one out. You have no understanding of the situation on the ground.
Is that a law you can cite or your opinion? I’m really asking, IDK
The choppers were by all accounts being used against groups of peaceful protesters who were nowhere near the church in question. They were not the ones involved in the arson.
The Boston Tea Party was a riot by the colonial residents and it was an instigating event in the Revolutionary War.
The 2A is a threat that the people will (and according to founding fathers should) rebel if the government becomes too tyrannical.
The Threatened use of military is not new. It was deployed during the riots in the 90s
Did you allude to illegal immigrants who broke into the country and was put in jail until they are processed as “families in cages”?
The use of police and national guards has always been used by every country to deal with rioters and looters.
I still don’t see any examples of fascism.
The majority of the protests across the country have been peaceful, with a minority engaging in rioting and looting. If that's what you choose to focus on, then you don't give a damn about justice.
I also see hateful graffiti sprayed all over my city about cops, despite the fact that the vast majority of them are peaceful and lawful and mean well for their communities. That seems to be lost on people as mob mentality has taken over.
> It's destroying the fabric of these cities. It will cost these cities decades to come back, if ever, from the decimation. On the other side of this is poverty, ruin, and gang violence.
There is absolutely no evidence of anything close to that level of destruction of property. The majority of protests have been peaceful. And you seem to have no idea about what causes poverty, ruin and gang violence (hint: its not the destruction of Macy's stores).
right. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/california/articles/...
Stand this one out. You’re hilariously out of touch with what’s important to societies.
When people feel that their security is threatened, they welcome fascism with open arms.
Large numbers of Americans are going to cheer this on.
The internet we have punishes educated, honest, kind, good actors. The internet we have rewards ignorant, dishonest, malevolent, connivers.
It's hard for the average person to reason about political issues when trolls and grifters and morons monopolize the public discourse.
Peaceful?! Wow...
> The alarm bells of fascism are ringing loudly, are the American people listening?
What are you listening/smoking, dude? Fascism is shown by liberals (aka socialists/communists) who are trying to get as much power over people they can manage (this is classic definition of fascims, btw); or 'antifa' movement who exactly resembles Hitler's brown-shirts.
It was well orchestrated attempt to enter White House premises by f*king peaceful protesters. In other cities there are some peaceful protests daytime that turns riot come night, mostly by low life scam who couldn't care less about justice.
This is absurd. Is that not a violation of Geneva conventions?
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v2_rul...
Considering that it was a private administration call they didn’t intend to be public, I’m not sure “you gotta arrest these people” over and over is wrong.
I must have missed it in my first pass, can you help me out with a timestamp?
You have a crazy country. Stay safe.
Violence in Montreal seems well contained for now.
> If you perform low-altitude flyovers while citizens exercise their right to assembly, you are attacking them lethally and must expect lethal reaction also. Please DO NOT do this.
President Trump on severity of response to protests.