I'm a naturopathy by certification, I don't practice because I prefer to work in my trade. Four years studying in a formal capacity, Western Herbal Medicine, Clinical Nutrition (diet and supplements), and enough anatomy & physiology and pathophysiology to be able to converse with experts in the field and keep up, and the resulting life-long passion to seek out and critically analyse new information relating to chemistry, biochemistry, neurology, immunology, etc etc etc.
I have fond memories of one lecturer always saying "don't put anything on your skin you wouldn't put in your mouth and swallow".
Your skin is permeable, the fats and oils the skin exude are part of it's protective systems, and, as the article points out, the regular surface of the skin is a veritable smorgasbord of commensal organisms.
We should probably stop treating out bodies as fundamentally broken. They've gotten us this far, and, more generally, you don't see other animals obsessed with hygiene. Although I did recently see a video of a rat soaping itself up for a shower, so there's that I guess.
Animals don't wear clothing, so already we're starting with a default that's different from nature. It's much easier to trap in sweat, oils, and other byproducts if you're rubbing up against fabrics all day.
There are soap alternatives that don't cut the oils the same way.
My favourite is rolled oats in the end of a stocking cut and tied off. The stocking is a mild abrasive and the oats exude a milky substance when wet and it feels quite pleasant.
Worth nothing I didn't say *"don't shower or bathe".
> don't put anything on your skin you wouldn't put in your mouth and swallow
I'd ask this lecturer to join me this weekend as I wade in a giardia-infested river, toes feeling the silt and mud, but I'm a bit of a prude and I can only assume they're naked.
Myself, I'll not hesitate to put on some sunscreen.
I have eczema, and at one point it got so severe from taking (too-)hot showers, that I could hardly sleep for weeks because of the discomfort. Out of desperation I gave up showering altogether so that I could heal. I eventually realized that I didn't really smell. After my skin healed I didn't resume showering. That was about four years ago. I've never had anyone (including my partner whom I live with) tell me I smell under normal circumstances (in fact I asked my partner directly), nor that my skin looks or feels oily or abnormal in any way. Same with my hair. I do smell for a few hours right after vigorous exercise or something, but it's nothing a little deodorant and a fresh shirt can't fix.
I don't know if everybody is this way - I'm sure it varies a lot by body chemistry - but for me at least there have been no downsides. In addition to saving time, I have to think I've saved an enormous amount of water. From the article, it sounds like I may be healthier for it too.
can confirm. I was suffering from atopic dermatitis for years, to the point where my bedsheets were covered with bloodstains every night due to unconsciously scratching my eczema while asleep. I was prescribed topical steroids to control it during flareups.
Then I moved from home and stopped daily showering, and the eczema resolved by itself. No lotions, no steroids, no bathing solutions! Imagine my relief. Since then I’m only showering twice a week with plain water (except the groin region where I use a bit of soap) and have been fine.
I do have to wonder if part of it is the way my skin is extra-eager to shed cells on its own (due to the eczema). That could be functioning as a kind of "automatic shower". Which would explain why some people with skin issues can do this without problems, but not everyone can. That's pure speculation though.
Yes, that's what I'm saying. Believe what you want, but I've pointedly asked multiple people and I trust that they wouldn't lie to me. Just wanted to add a data point to the discussion. I'm not saying that what I'm doing would work for everybody, but I am saying there's some truth to the general idea of less harsh cleaning of one's skin.
Yeah people are notoriously bad at noticing odours they are acclimatized to (anyone who's given up smoking, been to a convention, or talked to someone living in a smelly area can attest to that).
That's not to say they couldn't smell fine without daily showers but a smell will certainly build up over time. Some might be lucky and it won't smell particularly objectionable but you will smell and will smell stronger over time.
They need to check with someone they don't live with(so they're not used to it) and that someone will need to be willing to be blunt with them.
I've asked my parents too, who I only see 3-4 times a years, and they said there's no smell. And I trust they wouldn't lie to me about something like this. For obvious reasons I haven't brought up the question with people I'm not as close to, like coworkers.
In the cool seasons of the year I'll often go a full week or more between showers. My hair does eventually start looking a bit greasy, but I never really start to smell.
I've been showering every night before bed for about a month now, just to cool off as much as anything because we leave our windows open except on the very hottest days.
The main thing I've noticed since I picked up the habit is that my scalp has been more itchy lately. Also if anything I feel like I'm more smelly now than before. And it's not just a summer thing, because this is the first year I've picked up this habit.
I have no reason to doubt you, you may smell just fine.
But that brings up a question, back when mariners and seamen traversed the seas and didn’t bathe, some came upon the Japanese isles for the purpose of trade, and legend is they got called smelly foreigners... so, how come?
Interesting! Which means if you have the smelly gene you'll be smelly if you don't wash... (at least areas with pubic/negative hair) but if you have the other allele you'll be fine without washing/bathing/showering.
This is certainly an interesting perspective. I have a friend that refuses to wear sunscreen because he feels like the risk to his health from rubbing all the "unknown chemicals" into his skin outweigh the health risk of skin cancer. While I still use sunscreen, his perspective did get me thinking about all the unknowns I've introduced into my body through the skin.
Logically, it makes sense that our skin can adapt to be less oily and odorous with taking a break from using a lot of soap. I've been only using shampoo to wash my hair every other time I shower and I've noticed that my hair now seems to take longer to get oily. It's basically the same concept as using soap on the rest of our skin.
You can buy mineral based sun screens that don't contain the chemicals found in traditional brands. They aren't as user friendly as the traditional types but they are popular among surfers and others power users of sunscreen.
I find brands like "invisible zinc" and "oasis sun" to have good easy to spread mineral products. Also you can just get uv blocking sleeves and head covers if you're going to be out all day.
> I have a friend that refuses to wear sunscreen because he feels like the risk to his health from rubbing all the "unknown chemicals" into his skin outweigh the health risk of skin cancer.
I do wear sunscreen at the beach or if I am going to be outside in direct sunlight all day. I do question however if the risks posed by what is in sunscreen outweigh the protective benefit if you put it all over your body every day. I am not a doctor or expert in this so don't listen to me.
Regarding shampoo, I think it's different for everyone, but I have been on the lookout for shampoos that don't use such harsh chemicals. Baby shampoo has been the best! Clean feeling, not too harsh. Green tea shampoo and other natural alternatives seem to block the pores on my head, leading to some nasty pimples. Baby shampoo does not seem to do that.
"For the second time in less than a year, a study of common sunscreen ingredients has established that the chemicals are absorbed into the bloodstream at concentrations far greater than the Food and Drug Administration’s safety threshold."
Thanks for the link! I'm going to make the switch to physical sunscreens. I don't think I can justify not using sunscreen here at high altitudes in Colorado.
This "doctor" has never been in the same room with a 15 year old who hasn't showered for a week. The "body odor" of that magnitude should be prohibited under the Geneva Convention.
Doctors are required to get a doctorate for their career. This has two major consequences. For one, research standards are lower because many doctors are only doing it because it's mandatory, and there's a lot more people doing simple medical research than in most other areas of inquiry. This causes a lot of underqualified opinions to surface for prestigious-sounding doctors.
As always, be skeptical of claims that go against consensus. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Is there a medical consensus on this? The closest I've heard to anything on the subject is that a dermatologist once advised me to try not using soap on my face as a possible acne treatment.
Should you wash your face with antibacterial soap?
No, because the microbiome (helpful bacteria) around the eyes prevents conjunctivitis. And killing off those beneficial bacteria clears the way for far more undesireable bacteria.
In the USA, is antibacterial soap even a live issue, since the FDA banned basically all the chemicals used to make it about 5 years back? I would assume that at this point the ingredients they're using don't actually work (except perhaps in test tubes and at extreme concentrations) and it's largely just a hollow marketing term.
We generally credit Lister with saving many lives by inventing sterile surgical procedures; so, how do germs in open wounds and germs on the skin differ in their effects on survival, health, and appearance?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Lister
I'd like to know this also. I had bad acne in my teen years until I stopped washing my face completely and I haven't had anything but a pimple or two in over 20 years.
Unlike PhDs, professional doctorates don’t generally require research. I know several medical doctors none of whom did research as part of their doctorate degree program (although some did research as part of a masters).
Do you know of any research that shows that we should be soaping our bodies every day? Personally, I'm skeptical of claims that are based in nothing but consensus -- like the well-known "fact" that we need 8 cups of water a day, or that we lose most of our heat through our heads.
The problem with humans is that we like to take things to the extremes when we find out new information. Microbes are bad? Let's use anti-bacterial soap everywhere. Microbes are good? Let's not use soap anymore. The best advice is to live life in moderation, use some soap if you have a dirty job and don't use soap just because you're bored. Play in the sand and eat a variety of things and you'll be fine.
Having had some problems with eczema a few years ago, I did start using soap on only the smelliest parts of the body a few years back, and it helped a great deal compared to the "lather up entire body in shower every day" strategy before that. I don't know that I'd agree with "hands and nowhere else", but I do think we have too little information on our skin microbiome and how it works (or malfunctions) to say we know what we're doing in regards to soap. All of which goes double for soap with antibiotic added.
I also have some eczema/dry skin problems and one thing that I've found helps is not showering every single day. I used to shower once (or sometimes twice) a day, and it made the skin on my elbows and knees extremely tight, dry, and itchy. I now shower every other day (I still use deodorant and change my clothes) and haven't had nearly as many issues. That being said, I am fortunate because I don't have a lot of body odor and I don't sweat very much, so I can reasonably get away with not having a daily shower.
If you have any kind of serious health issue, it's worth looking at your usual routine -- aka anything you do habitually, basically -- and wondering if that's a variable worth varying instead of considering something like soap all over to be sacrosanct.
We have a shockingly poor understanding of the processes behind most diseases. We generally do a poor job of even thinking of the body in terms of processes and throughputs, much less factoring in elements like "I wonder how this is impacting my microbiome? And what that does to my overall health?"
Tips for self experimentation:
1. Keep a journal.
2. Make one and only one change at a time and space them at least a week apart, longer if possible.
Questioning my daily routine led to me noticing significant improvements to my hair health. My lightbulb moment happened on a scuba trip (diving 4-5 times a day for week) where I wasn't showering like I usually do, but just rinsing off the salt at the end of the day. My hair was incredibly healthy by the end of the week — no excessive oils, discomfort, dandruff, itchy scalp — just healthy hair. I had suffered on and off with those before.
I started using shampoo only once or twice a week (I do shower daily) and just using hot water the rest of the days. My hair is immensely happier now! I also switched to using a "fancy" shampoo with salt granules in it, since the ocean seems to make my hair nice, and that helped as well. Even though the shampoo is more expensive than the cheap stuff I used before, I use way less of it and it's cheaper overall.
I've tested my theory in a couple ways, and it's all been positive. After a Pre-COVID haircut, I had them use whatever shampoo they use for a wash. My scalp was itchy, dry, and uncomfortable for at least 24 hours after that, and my hair was totally flat for a few days as well. I also tried not using shampoo for a long time (3 weeks) and just using hot water, but I got dandruff again and I could feel I was getting dry skin and oil residue building up on my scalp. I'm back to my normal routine now, and have never been happier.
If anyone wants a 'fuller' treatment on the topic I would recommend the book Beyond Soap by Dr. Sandy Skotnicki; bona fides:
> Dr. SANDY SKOTNICKI is the founder of Toronto’s Bay Dermatology Centre and an Assistant Professor in the Department of Medicine, divisions of Dermatology and Occupational and Environmental Health at the University of Toronto. She is a consultant dermatologist at Toronto’s St. Michael’s Hospital. […]
It's not that soap is "bad", it's just that we're overemphasizing cleanliness to the point that a lot of the cleaning chemicals we (over-)use are damaging our skin.
Also, one certainly wants some cleanliness, but many products are excessively harsh for what they accomplish, and so she recommends certain products that she's found helped her patients:
Fun fact, in Ancient Rome people used olive oil as soap, and scraped off the excess using a...metal thing. Sometimes they put perfumed olive oil into their bathtubs. This is for richer folk, regular people used crude soaps.
Sorry for folks with eczema, but maybe it's about the soap you're using versus not using soap. I've had the misfortune of working with people who thought showering was optional and it's not pleasant. So unless you want to offend others and be referred to as the stinky co-worker please wash.
You've conflated "not using soap to clean oneself" with "not cleaning oneself".
I have several friends who do shower, but don't use soap except for hands or when they're actually dirty. None of them get funky, except when we're camping and nobody's been able to take a shower for a while.
As I got older the situation with my scalp kept getting worse and worse to the point I was using anti-fungus shampoo and still had fungus. So I just gave up. After an oily month or so everything was great. So I stopped using soap in the shower entirely. So far so good and it has been at least 5 years.
I don't use as little soap as the article suggests, but I use less than many people do. I don't want to smell bad, and I know it's harder to judge your own smells. But there's one piece of trivia that gave me the confidence to try it.
Humans have two types of sweat glands: eccrine and apocrine. Eccrine sweat glands are found all over the body. Apocrine glands are found in armpits (and a few other areas), and they only activate at puberty. The smell is related to bacterial activity in the "apocrine sweat". Armpits don't smell because they sweat more; they smell because it's a different kind of sweat.
So I use soap for my armpits. If I don't, I'll notice the smell easily in a day or two. But for most of my skin, I can go pretty much indefinitely with just water. I don't notice any bad smells, and I have asked some close friends, and they don't smell anything either.
You're right about the two different types of sweat glands.
And just to finesse what you're saying here:
> The smell is related to bacterial activity in the "apocrine sweat". Armpits don't smell because they sweat more; they smell because it's a different kind of sweat.
Even the sweat from the apocrine glands doesn't smell when it's produced. But because it is much richer in nutrients than the sweat produced from the eccrine glands (which is 99% water and the last 1% mainly being salts), it is a fertile feeding ground for bacteria. And it's the waste excreted by the bacteria feeding on your appocrine sweat that smells bad, not the sweat itself.
On the other hand, I used to get clogged pores when I went an extended period without body gel (after being allergic to a body gel I used). I've since resumed with a different brand. So this advice is very ymmv.
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[ 2.9 ms ] story [ 144 ms ] threadI have fond memories of one lecturer always saying "don't put anything on your skin you wouldn't put in your mouth and swallow".
Your skin is permeable, the fats and oils the skin exude are part of it's protective systems, and, as the article points out, the regular surface of the skin is a veritable smorgasbord of commensal organisms.
We should probably stop treating out bodies as fundamentally broken. They've gotten us this far, and, more generally, you don't see other animals obsessed with hygiene. Although I did recently see a video of a rat soaping itself up for a shower, so there's that I guess.
There are soap alternatives that don't cut the oils the same way.
My favourite is rolled oats in the end of a stocking cut and tied off. The stocking is a mild abrasive and the oats exude a milky substance when wet and it feels quite pleasant.
Worth nothing I didn't say *"don't shower or bathe".
I'd ask this lecturer to join me this weekend as I wade in a giardia-infested river, toes feeling the silt and mud, but I'm a bit of a prude and I can only assume they're naked.
Myself, I'll not hesitate to put on some sunscreen.
Obviously I'm not talking about that.
And, sure, I've got for multiple multi-year periods without wearing sunscreen, though I do when I want to expose my skin, of course.
Also, the site guidelines ask us to:
Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Ha, tell that to my cats!
He does have somewhat less of a collection of personal hygiene products than the average westerner, though ;)
My two cats lick their own anuses multiple times per day.
Not. Clean.
Cats can carry toxoplasmosis.
But, generally speaking, humans and other animals can cohabitate to quite a degree and nothing much comes of it in the general case.
I don't know if everybody is this way - I'm sure it varies a lot by body chemistry - but for me at least there have been no downsides. In addition to saving time, I have to think I've saved an enormous amount of water. From the article, it sounds like I may be healthier for it too.
I am sorry, but I do not believe you. What the author is saying is not to use soap, not to avoid showering.
https://blog.sylvaine-delacourte.com/perfumes-history-renais...
That's not to say they couldn't smell fine without daily showers but a smell will certainly build up over time. Some might be lucky and it won't smell particularly objectionable but you will smell and will smell stronger over time.
They need to check with someone they don't live with(so they're not used to it) and that someone will need to be willing to be blunt with them.
I've been showering every night before bed for about a month now, just to cool off as much as anything because we leave our windows open except on the very hottest days.
The main thing I've noticed since I picked up the habit is that my scalp has been more itchy lately. Also if anything I feel like I'm more smelly now than before. And it's not just a summer thing, because this is the first year I've picked up this habit.
But that brings up a question, back when mariners and seamen traversed the seas and didn’t bathe, some came upon the Japanese isles for the purpose of trade, and legend is they got called smelly foreigners... so, how come?
Logically, it makes sense that our skin can adapt to be less oily and odorous with taking a break from using a lot of soap. I've been only using shampoo to wash my hair every other time I shower and I've noticed that my hair now seems to take longer to get oily. It's basically the same concept as using soap on the rest of our skin.
I do wear sunscreen at the beach or if I am going to be outside in direct sunlight all day. I do question however if the risks posed by what is in sunscreen outweigh the protective benefit if you put it all over your body every day. I am not a doctor or expert in this so don't listen to me.
"For the second time in less than a year, a study of common sunscreen ingredients has established that the chemicals are absorbed into the bloodstream at concentrations far greater than the Food and Drug Administration’s safety threshold."
As is the use of deodorants and antiperspirants.
As always, be skeptical of claims that go against consensus. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
No, because the microbiome (helpful bacteria) around the eyes prevents conjunctivitis. And killing off those beneficial bacteria clears the way for far more undesireable bacteria.
Yes, germs are bad.
We generally credit Lister with saving many lives by inventing sterile surgical procedures; so, how do germs in open wounds and germs on the skin differ in their effects on survival, health, and appearance? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Lister
Nice variation on the old the last acceptable prejudice... rhetoric.
- Water temperature has a huge effect; consider taking lukewarm or even cold showers, if you can get used to it
- Using a wash rag is much harsher than just using soap in your hand. The coarse surface really used to tear up the outer layer of my skin.
- When drying off with a towel, pat instead of rub
We have a shockingly poor understanding of the processes behind most diseases. We generally do a poor job of even thinking of the body in terms of processes and throughputs, much less factoring in elements like "I wonder how this is impacting my microbiome? And what that does to my overall health?"
Tips for self experimentation:
1. Keep a journal.
2. Make one and only one change at a time and space them at least a week apart, longer if possible.
I started using shampoo only once or twice a week (I do shower daily) and just using hot water the rest of the days. My hair is immensely happier now! I also switched to using a "fancy" shampoo with salt granules in it, since the ocean seems to make my hair nice, and that helped as well. Even though the shampoo is more expensive than the cheap stuff I used before, I use way less of it and it's cheaper overall.
I've tested my theory in a couple ways, and it's all been positive. After a Pre-COVID haircut, I had them use whatever shampoo they use for a wash. My scalp was itchy, dry, and uncomfortable for at least 24 hours after that, and my hair was totally flat for a few days as well. I also tried not using shampoo for a long time (3 weeks) and just using hot water, but I got dandruff again and I could feel I was getting dry skin and oil residue building up on my scalp. I'm back to my normal routine now, and have never been happier.
> Dr. SANDY SKOTNICKI is the founder of Toronto’s Bay Dermatology Centre and an Assistant Professor in the Department of Medicine, divisions of Dermatology and Occupational and Environmental Health at the University of Toronto. She is a consultant dermatologist at Toronto’s St. Michael’s Hospital. […]
* https://drsandyskotnicki.com
Interview with her on TVO, the province of Ontario's public broadcast network:
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGl19JJnaK0
It's not that soap is "bad", it's just that we're overemphasizing cleanliness to the point that a lot of the cleaning chemicals we (over-)use are damaging our skin.
Also, one certainly wants some cleanliness, but many products are excessively harsh for what they accomplish, and so she recommends certain products that she's found helped her patients:
* https://www.producteliminationdiet.com
https://hubpages.com/education/The-Many-Uses-of-Olive-Oil-in...
I have several friends who do shower, but don't use soap except for hands or when they're actually dirty. None of them get funky, except when we're camping and nobody's been able to take a shower for a while.
Humans have two types of sweat glands: eccrine and apocrine. Eccrine sweat glands are found all over the body. Apocrine glands are found in armpits (and a few other areas), and they only activate at puberty. The smell is related to bacterial activity in the "apocrine sweat". Armpits don't smell because they sweat more; they smell because it's a different kind of sweat.
So I use soap for my armpits. If I don't, I'll notice the smell easily in a day or two. But for most of my skin, I can go pretty much indefinitely with just water. I don't notice any bad smells, and I have asked some close friends, and they don't smell anything either.
And just to finesse what you're saying here:
> The smell is related to bacterial activity in the "apocrine sweat". Armpits don't smell because they sweat more; they smell because it's a different kind of sweat.
Even the sweat from the apocrine glands doesn't smell when it's produced. But because it is much richer in nutrients than the sweat produced from the eccrine glands (which is 99% water and the last 1% mainly being salts), it is a fertile feeding ground for bacteria. And it's the waste excreted by the bacteria feeding on your appocrine sweat that smells bad, not the sweat itself.