It could use an AVR but you don’t save much and the world is on ARM. You would “need” an ATMega 32u4 anyways for hardware USB support. A purposed KB IC probably wouldn’t handle split halves.
Need to? It doesn't. Why might users care? Well, the kinds of people who are into custom keyboards often use custom firmware too... while this keyboard advertises QMK support, if I don't like QMK and want to use something else, which chips are inside matters.
Making this even more concrete, I am in the market for some new keyboards, and at least one of them is one I'd like to write my own firmware for. Rust is far more supported on ARM chips than on some of the other popular chips that are used to build keyboards, and so knowing this has one makes me more likely to buy it than others. I don't want this specific keyboard, so it isn't a win for me, but there are surely dozens of folks like me, dozens!
I think OP meant "Why does this keyboard need so much computing power". Most keyboards you can program use an AVR chip, which is more than enough, and you can also program that from Rust.
The jump from that to this ARMv5 CPU is similar to that from this ARMv5 to an Intel Xeon. And sure enough, if someone were to build a keyboard with an Intel Xeon, you could also program that from Rust. But the question still remains: why would anybody do that ?
Specifically, this has a STM32F303xC. Looks like (depending on quantity, of course), you're looking at $3 to $5. Their other well-known keyboard, the Ergodox EZ, uses an ATMEGA32U4-AU. It's also $3 or $4 on Mouser. I don't know what the actual BOM looks like in total, but it seems like this isn't significantly different in price? Especially at the likely volumes here?
I'm still new to this game, so maybe I'm missing something.
Actually, there are people who have already written firmware in Rust for their DIY/kit keyboards. Nothing yet mainstream like QMK. Here's a write up of one of them: https://josh.robsonchase.com/rest-of-the-keyboard/
While Cortex-Ms are surprisingly powerful compared to the microcontrollers of yesteryear, they're still targeting the same segment. They are not comparable (in terms of cost, power consumption, performance...) to the ARM in your smartphone, let alone the ARM in AWS Graviton. They have kilobytes, not gigabytes of RAM. They run at double digit megahertz clocks.
Why not? They are affordable, accessible and common microcontrollers. Where you might have used an AVR or PIC before, nowadays a small ARM is also a completely normal choice.
Is there any science when it comes to ergonomy and tall keys? I would expect tall keys to be more damaging to wrists over time due to awkward position and longer travel time.
I learned that the proper way to type is with your hands floating above the keyboard, and resting your hands on a wrist rest when not typing. I don't always do it, but when I do, the height of the keyboard relative to the table becomes irrelevant, instead it's more about height of keys relative to my shoulders and maintaining right angled elbows.
Also, to me the Moonlander keyboard and its keycaps do not seem particularly tall.
Be careful using wrist rests. The pressure can cause the carpal tunnel on the underside of your wrist to compress, increasing the friction on the tendons running through the tunnel and exacerbating or causing carpal tunnel syndrome. It's much much better to train your muscles and posture to keep your wrists from resting on a surface while you type.
Most of stress injury derives from the "time under tension" component which is not necessarily a matter of key travel distance. In this case it's a combination of switch mechanism and keycaps. Flat and light keycaps have less force at rest than tall, heavy keycaps. A higher resting force means the needed activation force is lower. In both cases, the switch is governing how much force is needed in total, and whether there's a "tactile bump" indicating activation before the switch bottoms out completely.
When the switch bottoms out, it's like your fingers have hit a wall: this is the norm with most membrane switch designs, and with linear mechanical switches, which are usually light. With tactile and clicky switches, the concept is to reduce bottoming out by indicating the activation with heavier force partway through the downstroke. A pairing of heavy keycaps and heavy tactile switches is often considered satisfying for typists because then the heft of the switch has been balanced out; a light tap will fling the key down past the tactile bump and spring it up without the same degree of muscle activation as a linear switch. And it is possible to have "too heavy" keycaps for the switch, which simply won't work(always activated).
With the key height, as well, what will matter is tension at rest, which will depend on overall posture. In theory you move the keyboard down if the keys are taller.
I don’t know any science off the top of my head, but professional stenographers generally prefer low profile keys and short key caps. As someone who is recovering from RSI, short keys and light switches have been a god send.
Looks line ZSA is borrowing Kinesis's idea of putting a number of special keys into a "thumb-bar". Not sure if Kinesis actually invented that idea, but I think they were the first to bring it to market.
I've had both and the kinesis def feels more solid. The Maltron probably came up with the original design, and they're great for that, but the keys of the Kinesis feel better/sturdier. I've had to resolder connections in the Maltron several times; luckily its easy to do... they're just unshielded wires going everywhere!
I switched to an Ergodox EZ from a Kinesis Freestyle 2 bluetooth. It basically took me a month to get used to an ortholinear layout, but it's been working great so far
I had a slightly different experience. I don't like Bluetooth (too much fiddliness, especially when batteries are running low, and I'm always at my desk so I could just use a cable), and I don't like the ortholinear layout, I think it's too much hassle for no benefit at all.
The Kinesis Advantage is the gold standard here. Have been using Kinesis keyboards for many years.
Kinesis could of course have gone with an ortholinear layout but they didn't because the layout they chose much better maps to the actual geometry of the hand. Yes, it takes a few hours to learn to adapt, typically spread out over a couple days, but no that's not difficult and no it doesn't impact your ability to jump over to a normal keyboard.
100% stop to serious repetitive stress injury problems I had been experiencing with other keyboards, fully programmable layout, and a great high grade mechanical design that's lasted a decade or more without complaint.
I used a Kinesis Advantage for a few years before switching to the Kinesis Freestyle Edge RGB.
My main complaint about the Advantage is that I kept hitting the arrow buttons in the bottom row unintentionally. Partly poor typing form, I'm sure, and of course I could have remapped them.
The other thing is that the Advantage is tall, so it's not great up on a desk, and it's not that comfortable on your lap. I think it's best in a tray, although some trays may not be tall enough for it.
As for the Freestyle, I like the split design, the customizable layout, and the customizable lighting (I have a different color for QWERTY and Dvorak). Add a couple of USB ports, and it would be nearly perfect. The "6" key is on the wrong half, and I might experiment with a layout that isn't staggered typewriter style.
I do tend to fidget with the position of the Freestyle throughout the day. This is another keyboard that might work better in a tray.
I don't know if I'd call this Moonlander "next generation," but it's an intriguing combination of what I like in the Advantage and Freestyle.
I have an advantage as well, and I've never accidentally hit the arrow keys or any other keys to be honest. How are you doing so? They're in a pretty out of the way location if you let your hands rest on the home row.
Yes, I'm disappointed to see that this isn't a contoured keyboard -- still waiting for a contoured keyboard (e.g. Advantage2) with the customization of the ErgoDox without having to build it myself (e.g. Dactyl Manuform).
This. After using Advantage2 for 10ish years I can't really go back to a flat keyboard. I liked my Keyboardio Model 1 but the Advantage2 is just more comfortable.
I love the idea of customization but the flatness has me looking at all these as non-starters.
I hate to add to the Advantage2 fan club, but Kinesis absolutely knocked it out of the park in terms of ergonomics. Makes constant typing ridiculously comfortable.
Skip to original Dactyl and look at the configurability/customizability of the Dactyl Manuforms.
Personally, after using the Kinesis Advantage for many years, I'm going a different direction... fewer keys, lower profile, etc. E.g., Corne, Kyria, Ferris.
Not OP but I just just use my Advantage at Home/Work (currently the same thing) and the Mac keyboard if I'm mobile. I tend not to do much heavy coding if I'm not at my desk due to the reduced screen size. If I had one of the newer Macs with the crappy keyboard I'm not sure what I would do. This hasn't been an issue since every work Mac since 2015 has been a the old style keyboard for some reason.
I also use an Advantage which covers probably 80% of my computer use. I have no problem switching between it and other keyboards. If I'm on my laptop in the living room or away from home, I'll use the built in keyboard. If I'm gaming, I use a Kinesis Gaming keyboard.
I don't bother traveling with the Advantage2 at all... it's a bit too big to do that comfortably.
I find it pretty easy to switch between laptop keyboard and Advantage2, so no problems there. So the Advantage2 remains on my desk while I just use my laptop's keyboard for meetings/on-the-go. I think the layouts are so different, my brain processes them separately.
Indeed. I started with the original Advantage a long time ago. After getting used to it, switching back and forth with the laptop keyboards doesn't scramble my brain.
But making the jump to the modern, smaller splits + multiple layers, etc. is another huge jump in ergonomics... and they are portable enough to travel with.
I like the idea of it, it's different enough from the standard design that it seems well thought out - but it's one of those keyboards/products I would love to be able to try for a while before committing myself to a purchase, to ensure I can get used to it and would enjoy typing on it. It'd be great to see some kinda local computer hardware/keyboard store open up for this purpose, but I guess it'd be too niche really to be profitable/popular...
That's one of the reasons I said in mu post that I'm happy that split keyboards are getting more attention.
Most of the people still don't know about them. If more people knew about the benefits they bring, problems they solve, they would be much more popular. That would bring the price down, increase the choices available, bring them closer to the users. So you could probably go to a local shop and test it.
But they would lose the exclusivity feeling they have now. Which one do you choose?
I think it would be better for the health of the population if split keyboards were less exclusive, along with different keyboard layouts like Colemak instead of most people being stuck on Qwerty which was designed to be awkward to slow down the typist to prevent typewriter jams.
Sure, it would be harder to tell who the early adopters are, in case it is any measure of skill or determination, but that's a trade-off I would be happy with - instead of being the odd ones out, we'd be pioneers setting the trend ;)
I think it's coming. More and more people are having problems caused by the position used with standard keyboards. But it will take some time to educate everyone, starting with doctors who need to keep up with 'modern health issues' caused by using the computer whole day.
Let's be philosophical: A journey of a thousand miles begins with a first step. We'll get there.
This is why I appreciate my friend who loaned me his spare Ultimate Hacking Keyboard for a couple months to help with my tendonitis. When it goes back to him, I'll probably order one myself.
I’ve found my UHK’s (three of them) to be great but prone to a few problems:
1) the rubber legs tend to fall out and go missing
2) they’re very susceptible to static electricity shocks on the exposed metal parts
3) the usb cable connector is fragile and I’d you move much, it can get damaged inside the keyboard requiring you open it up to fix. I wish they had used usb-c and put it in a better/easier location.
Hi there, thanks for your huge support, and sorry to hear about the issues!
Issue 1 has been fixed quite a while ago. We provide spare rubber feet if you need some. I'm unsure if we faced with issue 2 because your description doesn't contain many details about this one. As for issue 3, this is quite a rare one, and we'll provide a new UHK version featuring USB-C and tons of improvements.
I live in a dry area, in the winter sometimes when I sit down to type a static shock will go off if I brush the edges of the case where there is exposed metal. When this happens it will often lead to the keyboard disconnecting from usb. Or staying connected (power on) but not responding to input. So far unplugging and replugging has always fixed it, but it's an annoying feature.
Re: #3 ...
Glad to hear that you're making design changes to fix this. It has happened on two of my boards now where the usb connection has become loose. I contacted support on it a few months ago and they suggested I try to open up the case and fix it. I haven't been able to do that yet but will give it a try.
I was in the same boat, the solution to my predicament came in the form of my friend, who is a keyboard geek and has a few tens of them. He lent me one, I liked it and bought it from him. I greatly enjoy it now and would not go back to a non-QMK keyboard (or a non-split one), though I wouldn't have gone for a columnar keyboard if I knew.
I would also have preserved the full layout, to prevent having to needlessly retrain some muscle memory, but being able to do things like remap "Tab+hjkl" to "{}[]" is fantastic.
I should actually finish writing up that post I started writing in December...
Why do split keyboards charge a premium? Microsoft makes contoured keybords for 100usd. In India great quality mech keyboards costs $40, you bang it all day on games and it lasts.
There are only a couple competitors that are split, ortholinear, and mechanical (ergodox and some small custom others). They all charge over $300 afaik. You can get decent split/standard/membrane keyboards for $80-120 from goldtouch or kinesis.
Lower volume (also quality is bottomless hole, I know people that own PVD coating equipment because they find that the kind of finish taht you can buy isn't good enough). I have built myself a couple of Nyquist ortho splits and with my even lower volume I spent even more despite providing the labor and part of the design work.
Economies of scale. I bet Microsoft sells more Sculpts in a month than ZSA does in a year. Plus microsoft can make slim margins on their keyboard and make it up elsewhere; ZSA just sells keyboards and related accessories.
I've been getting deep into the home office ergonomics hole now that I'll be working from home indefinitely. There's a real danger here - I generally pride myself as someone who is conscientious of consumerist tendencies, but it's become clear that my drive for better ergonomics is no longer about the actual facilitation of work or avoidance of injury. I have spent more time researching ergonomic setups than could ever be saved by marginal improvements in productivity, and my poor posture is by far the greatest risk for injury.
It's become about completing myself. Filling the void. Materialism: the belief that acquisition of something outside myself will finally bring me permanent satisfaction. But if you'll excuse the metaphor, the void we try to fill is a black hole of the cosmic variety: its pull grows as it is fed. Shoveling in expensive ergonomic equipment is little different from shoes or bags or guns or radios or funko pops.
Anyway, this next $250 I spend on an endlessly-adjustible retractable keyboard tray & fancy ergonomic keyboard will surely address all my complaints...
I have never spent more than 30 € on a keyboard and mouse combo, and that's over the span of the last 10 years...
I have never peeked over the price wall into the higher end stuff because it genuinely has never occurred to me that my current keyboard+mouse were hindering my productivity.
High contrast screen? Sure, squinting hurts.
Office-cancelling headphones? Sure, loud noises ruin my concentration
But keyboard and mouse have never been am issue... When did you start to suspect that you needed to get a better keyboard?
For me, it was about 2 weeks ago. My left wrist is just a _little_ sore, but constantly. I've noticed that if I rotate my keyboard towards my left hand, the pain gets better, so now I'm starting to think that it's something that I'll need to actually get better hardware to prevent getting worse.
I've indulged in a nicer keyboard once before, but only because I was intrigued by the novelty of mechanical keycaps. Now I'm thinking that I'll need to take the plunge and get something more ergonomic, because I've still got a lot of career left.
If you don't have repetitive stress problems already, then ergonomic keyboards aren't necessarily about improving your productivity right now. They're about preventing a serious reduction in your productivity years from now.
(However, after buying a mech keyboard to deal with finger joint pain, and training myself to type without bottoming out much, I discovered I was typing faster.)
The three most impactful things you can do to avoid wrist injuries are:
(1) Ensuring your chair, desk, and keyboard are set up so your wrists are straight when typing
(2) Using a split/tilted keyboard so your wrists do not need to rotate as much when you type
(3) Using a vertical mouse so your wrist does not need to rotate as much when mousing
You can accomplish all of this for very cheap. A bit more than you're spending, but not an order of magnitude more (unless your desk or chair are very bad). Once you get into mechanical keyswitches or exotic keyboard layouts you're just messing around imo. Membrane keyboards are fine. They're fine! And very quiet.
Currently I use the Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000, an enormous dinosaur which can reliably be bought for $20 used. I had the Microsoft Sculpt keyboard for a few years before that, which I liked, but the build quality was very bad and I had two break on me.
I'm going to switch to either a goldtouch or kinesis freestyle soon, since I don't like the number pad. Those are $80-$120 but I hope the build quality will pay off in the long run.
I have the Kenesis Freestyle2 and I find it unusable without retraining much of my muscle memory.
1. The extra 2 columns of keys on the left edge somehow reliably disorients me.
2. the lack of an extra (potentially redundant) row of keys on the inner edges throws me off b/c I tend to reach across the middle from either side, e.g. press B with my right hand.
While I have an ergodox, I completely agree with this. I'm still suffering from some RSI, but following this has helped me tremendously. I also want to add, just as you're suppose to turn away from the monitor every once in a while, make sure you stretch out your hands/arms and return it into the neutral position.
For those looking for a cheap split keyboard, a used microsoft sculpt can be found around $40 on eBay.
Yes, this has also helped me (at one point my wrists were bad enough I had to start mousing with my non-dominant hand). It seems like pulling exercises such as deadlifts or pull-ups or just rock climbing in general help the most.
I bought a keyboard.io model 01 recently, because I was desperate (and I'd been intrigued by its programmability for a while). I bought a vertical mouse (cheap Anker) at the same time.
I've had RSI issues in the past, but this spring (when I bought those two), I was in intense pain for days at a time, even when not at my desk. Otherwise good ergonomic setup: external monitor, adjustable desk and good chair, etc.
I'd suggest you at least take small steps to improve/optimize your ergonomics before you have a problem. It really does suck to be in pain like that, especially when doing your work, which you have to do to pay the bills, makes it worse. I was looking forward to weekends just for some relief.
For what it's worth, having a programmable keyboard is super cool even without the ergonomic benefits. It's just fun to tinker and optimize your layout, macros, etc.
You can probably make that happen with the QMK firmware: make the whole thing stop two hours after being plugged in. Or have a key sequence to restart the timer. (so that you don't have to unplug and plug it all the time)
The keyboard in the submitted post comes with a buzzer built-in. I think they had one in the Planck that beeped when it turned on or connected to bluetooth or something. So you could program QMK to do this almost certainly! :)
The price seems irrelevant based on the rest of your post (I mean, assuming spending $250 doesn't put you at financial risks). The only question that you should ask yourself (but I'm sure you already know) is if you need a new and better keyboard or not.
overly hyperbolic. though there's something good to be said about abstaining from _needless_ things, what you need is a matter of taste and personal experience.
there's more to keyboards. why do i have a nice one? to enjoy the typing experience - feedback + sound + appearance.
nothing wrong with nice things that make your life better. i spend an obscene amount of time with a keyboard. i want the experience to be as perfected as possible.
specific to this keyboard: i want an ergo layout, but would not buy this keyboard unless there was a switch-less and cap-less option - 365 (plus fees + taxes + shipping/whatever) is a lot to pay and then also buy switches and keycaps
Yeah. It Looks cool, some nice features. But splits with most of these features can be had for $150 or less, so I don't really see the appeal of spending 200 more without a commensurate doubling of functionality, ergonomics, etc.
I appreciate that there is a market for ergonomic fancy keyboards, but can't we just get the standard keyboard right?
I wish that there was a keyboard company out there that focused on standard keyboards with attention paid to supporting all locales. Choice for the US consumer might be great but elsewhere in the English speaking world you start getting compromises. Essentially you can get a US keyboard with a few of the keycaps moved around. What you actually want is more than that, things like a double height enter key.
I dread to think what keyboard layout crimes go on outside the English speaking world.
Now, tenkeyless. Having the number pad is great if you do a lot of book-keeping but for most people it is not needed. If you are left handed then it makes as much sense as a fish with a bicycle.
But getting to know the jargon - 'tenkeyless' and 'tkl' is a journey in itself. If you are using your keyoboard to type words then you do want the keys for navigation - Page Up, Page Down, Home, End, Delete - plus the arrow keys. But mini keyboards just mess with the layout to maybe give you half the standard keys in non-standard places.
So, effectively 'tkl' plus a non-US locale means you are going to have a limited choice.
Now let's put in a few other common requirements - backlighting, wireless and wired operation, coffee proofing and silent operation. You can't get all these things with a non US locale and a 'tkl' keyboard. Sure there are many switch variants and fancy LED lighting schemes with ghastly keycap designs, but if you just want standard layout then it isn't going to happen.
It is sad to see Logitech, Microsoft and others offer us compromised designs that cost either a pittance of serious money. Why can't there just be a manufacturer that goes for the niche of standard ISO rather than ergonomic, or with too few keys, or with some emphasis on buckling spring style feel?
> Why can't there just be a manufacturer that goes for the niche of standard ISO rather than ergonomic, or with too few keys, or with some emphasis on buckling spring style feel?
Those features are what the mass consumer market wants. Also, I'm sure Logitech and Microsoft have always offered a standard ISO keyboard.
> Ergonomic
People value the long-term health of their wrists.
> Too few keys
Usually to reduce desk space. In the case of the Planck, it's also to reduce finger travel.
> Emphasis on key feel
If I'm typing at my job all day, I want the thousands of keypresses I do to feel good.
> niche of standard ISO
Honestly, I think standard ISO/ANSI is awful -- the vast amount of design decisions are a relic of the typewriter age.
The rows are staggered because typewriter keyboards had physical vertical bars under the keys that would otherwise overlap. An ortholinear solution makes much more sense in the modern age.
The second most-used key, backspace, is positioned in the far right corner of the keyboard. One must move their entire right hand (or have a long pinky) to hit it. The spacebar, on the other hand, is wasted real estate because it completely occupies two of the strongest digits -- the thumbs. Thus, a better solution would be to split the spacebar with one half being backspace.
This isn't even going into the nightmare that is QWERTY. Regardless of keyboard, almost everyone is using an inefficient layout designed to place common keys away from each other.
Conclusion: just because it's standard doesn't mean it's the best choice. IMO, when it comes to keyboard layouts, the standard is the worst choice.
US keyboards don't. There is a backslash key above the single row enter key. Which is a key I have no real great use for. Maybe it rocked in the MS-DOS days but backslash doesn't really need that priority place.
So look at the Logitech keyboards for the UK. They offer one model with the true layout, i.e. a double height enter key. The rest have some US keys with UK labels on.
Now look at Microsoft. Again there is some massive backslash key instead of an ISO UK keyboard in all its glory.
What happens is that they take the US board and change a few of the key caps. They do not go to the effort of doing it properly.
There are other layouts, for example, German, that should have the big enter key.
Standards might not be optimal solutions. But at least you know where you are. You know what to expect. But with keyboards nobody sticks to the standards. If you look at the Logitech ones for instance they all have different fudges, such as arrow keys mangled together differently, just enough to trip you up if swapping between Logitech keyboards. Then things like rounding off the corner keys including escape. They do these awful design decisions on far too many of their keyboards.
The tenkeyless requirement is reasonable, laptops don't tend to have the num-pad. But is there a tkl keyboard out there with a standard ISO layout? Not if you combine that feature with wireless or a desire for backlighting. Nevermind switch choice.
Some people struggle with an Apple keypad due to the different modifier keys. God help anyone having to press a few keys on any of the ZSA boards. Might as well learn Dvorak keyboards. Or go all the way with a chord keyboard. QWERTY works and we all know it is not the best. But standards are not kept to when you move out of the US layout.
That is a gorgeous keyboard. Perfect in every way except for the dealbreaker...
The dealbreaker for me is the connectivity. A keyboard should be able to connect over a wire (and/or a wireless dongle), Bluetooth 3, Bluetooth 5 and telepathy.
A £10 mouse can connect with a dongle that is stored inside the mouse, or via BT 3/5. There are chips for this.
I might have to send an email in block caps to Durgod with my demands, since their products are so nice, down to the keycaps labels.
This is pretty cool. I was thinking about ordering and building a dactyl manuform [1] after my latest upgrade, the kyria [2] which improved the inflammation in my index fingers, failed to truly solve my issues because they put my thumbs in a very contorted position. I love how you can rotate the thumb keys as its unnatural to have your thumbs press keys in the same direction as the rest of your fingers.
Having started with very generic ergonomic keyboards, and now progressing to hand built keyboards have taught me that if you are experiencing some sort of tendon, nerve, or joint issues from standard keyboard use, you really need to dive into the deep end and get the most ergonomic thing out there even if $300 for a keyboard, when you can buy one for under $20, sounds incredibly expensive. If you don't, you'll likely end up paying that much to just keep fixing or improving the situation. And if you don't try to fix the situation you'll pay for it in damage to your hands which to me has no monetary value* .
I might still choose to build the manuform, but it's nice that there's an option out there with adjustable thumb keys, I've never seen that before and I hope it becomes a trend in the split ergonomic keyboard world.
* okay, maybe there is an exact amount in terms of how much money you can no longer make through typing ability that is lost, but my point is there is an intrinsic value to having fully functional hands.
Its the angle of the thumb keys, which is the restriction of printing all the keys for one hand on one board. I like the keyboard linked here because the thumb keys are at a different angle. I really like the kyria though because of the aggressive staggering. It resolved a lot of issues I got because my middle finger is so much longer than my index finger. But in order to take advantage of the stagger, I have to keep my wrists at the same angle of the plate, and if I keep my wrists at that same angle then my thumbs have to hit the keys with their side and tuck to the side of my palm like a trex because there's not as much space between the thumb and the keys. The ideal angle that the thumb bends is roughly perpendicular to the angle the rest of your fingers bend. The thumb cluster though is a fantastic improvement over pinky modifiers, that's not my complaint.
I see. Yeah, sounds like a one of the Dactyl Manuform's is in your future. :-) Given the parametric nature, it seems like you be able to tune it to your specifics.
For me, on the existing flat thumb ergos, hitting the thumb buttons with the side of the thumb actually feels normal to me in terms of thumb & wrist motion. The primary issue is the angles and arc of the splaying of the thumb to hit the keys without having to contort my thumbs any. This is my biggest issue with the Kinesis Advantage and ErgoDox.
The second biggest factor is that the tall Cherry style switches and keycaps requires a lot of travel distance for activation. One the more recent ergo boards, I've switched to lower profile switches and that makes a non-trivial improvement as well. My upcoming build is with the choc minis + low profile keycaps but with heavier springs so they feel more like the last generation of the 17" MBP keyboard (as opposed the crap that's Apple's done with their recent keys).
Yeah, the wire between the two doesn't look that long. I wonder if it's a portable connector. From the bottom picture, it kind of looks like a headphone jack, but I'm doubting that's the case. I wish they'd have mentioned the connector type to see if there are alternative cables available.
As it is, it seems too short to comfortably have each half to my sides when laying down.
I never understood the appeal of wireless keyboards. Sure I understand for mobile but for a primary workspace the wire has never bothered me on the keyboard. I mean it just sits there and replacing batteries is a pain. Mouse is a different story since it moves. Is it just mobile or is there some other reason you hate wires on a keyboard?
1. Aesthetics; the wire looks ugly on an otherwise clean desk
2. The wire takes up space that could be used for a notebook, coffee cup, mobile phone or whatever
I've had wireless keyboards at home and wired at work for years - wireless is much better IMO. On the batteries, they seem to last a very long time - I guess I change them once a year, or possibly 18 months, and that's with me using it all day, and then someone else often using it for a bit in the evening too.
If it's built as well as my Ergo from them. I look forward too it. They make some very refined and well thought out implementations of otherwise obvious keyboards. And they're open source firmware support is amazing.
Unfortunatley, I believe it's a mistake to move away from the 1.5u outer column used by the ErgoDox, since the pinky is a less accurate finger and benefits from the extra key width.
There isn't anything this does that the ErgoDox-EZ doesn't do, besides the adjustable thumb cluster and apparent build quality.
I wouldn't call this a next-generation ergonomic keyboard unless it also had integrated pointing device options like the UHK has.
The main critique about the ErgoDox-EZ was always the thumb cluster. This one seems a bit better designed, but can't tell from the pics if they solved that particular issue - I suspect not. Agree about the pinky column, not an improvement.
I like the visuals of the ErgoDox-EZ the most, but still willing to wait for the new keyboard.io, whenever that one comes out.
My take after building my own fully-custom board is that the best ergonomics is had by ditching the outer column entirely to completely remove pinky reaching.
The thumb clusters need to be bigger and closer to the alphas so they're more powerful and more easily reached.
You are a legend, sir! I recall this being posted to reddit years back. I upvoted it then, and do so again now.
I started out with an Atreus42 in 2016 and really loved it, so I totally get that outer columns are superfluous in most circumstances. The same could be said about most extra features on this ZSA Moonlander board overall, although I think there's some utility in being able to leverage the non-essential keys when it's convenient, especially when it costs that much. Say for example one wants to use it for gaming - most games expect there to be an outer column.
I'm not sure if I agree with the Freestyle being an equivalent alternative. The Freestyle uses a traditional row-staggered layout while this keyboard uses a column-staggered layout. A column-staggered layout IMO is much more comfortable since your fingers are given their own dedicated column without having to awkwardly twist your wrist.
I agree this might be significantly better for some. The tenting is probably also better than the Freestyle Edge (which has only a couple settings).
If someone wants a first split keyboard though I think the Freestyle Edge is a much better starting point given the price difference and the fact that the non-letter/number keys don't have normal placements on the Moonlander.
Personally I tried the ErgoDox EZ and had to return it because it damaged my productivity since it doesn't support just using a normal keyboard layout. With a closer look this keyboard seems fundamentally the same actually so I wouldn't recommend considering to try it unless you use a keyboard all day long and even then be prepared to return it if it doesn't work out. The Freestyle Edge on the other hand is a sure bet.
One thing I have never been able to understand about split keyboard designs is why they don't put the characters on the split ("Y/T G/H V/B/N") on _both_ sides of the keyboard. I mean, are key caps a high cost? There's a correct way to type, but it doesn't need to be so strict. Sometimes (often) the natural use of a keyboard (like holding down a control character for a sequence of keys) makes it so that we type on the wrong side because one hand is badly out of position.
This is one of the two major issues I had with my last split keyboard. I also found that I orient myself by the edge of the keyboard, so an extra row of keys on the left side really throws me off.
This keyboard seems to solve both of those problems so I may take the plunge and buy one.
This keyboard, and the Erdogox EZ I bought a month ago are reprogrammable! There's a slick web UI that can generate firmware for you so you can reflash a keyboard's firmware.
You can also download the source code of your keyboard;s layout, program it and flash it yourself. It's called QMK
But the keys in the middle are differently sized; there are two of them for the three rows of keys. You can reprogram, but you can't just add a regular "Y" key on the left and a "T" key on the right that are where they are supposed to be.
The hardware is open; you can build or modify the keys as you please. There a number of variants with different key layouts: https://deskthority.net/wiki/ErgoDox
There's basically two directions that people are going... Splits with lots of keys so you can have keys dedicated to whatever you want or going more and more minimalist.
The minimalism idea is that since these are all programmable, we can design them to require much less finger/hand movement by taking more advantage of layers, various strategies of key activation, key layouts, etc.
There's an active Discord for the whole genre of the smaller, 40% keyboards.
When I first bought a split keyboard, I found that I was stretching far too much to reach the "Y" key with my left hand. I'm grateful for the strict layout so that I type more ergonomically.
Also keycap set makers generally just include one of every key.
I badly want this, but with Topre keys. I have a couple of Topre FC660Cs and absolutely love the feel, durability and quality of the keyboard. A split would be really nice though.
I'm with you. I have the FC660C. Loved the feel and sound, but the tiny form caused my RSI, which prompted me to buy an ErgoDox EZ. Had to go back to Cherry switches, but I would love some CYO Topre switches to throw in there. I wish there was a bigger market for CYO switches, but I haven't found anywhere to get them.
I wouldn't hold my breath on the Topre front, the company is notoriously conservative in their offerings. They're also not mechanical switches; there's really no way to offer hotswap Topre switches. But there is a whole world out there other than Topre and Cherry. And you can swap them out easily since you have an ergodox ez. You can buy mechanical switches from several hobby sites like https://novelkeys.xyz/collections/switches, it's pretty much plug and play
Is there a similar keyboard in the $100 range? I do not need changeable keyswitches or an ARM processor in my keyboard. Currently I have the Microsoft natural ergonomic keyboard 4000 and I am quite happy with that. I just do not need a num block and think a split keyboard is easier for travelling. Are there any good split keyboards with hand rests in the $100 range?
You do need an ARM processor, though. It's fantastic to be able to remap the keys to anything you like. I didn't think I'd need it until I tried it, but now I can't live without it.
I wonder if you could put an Arduino into the MS Sculpt and get the best of both worlds. Or maybe you could make an Arduino with a USB port and just have it remap keys on the fly.
The Kinesis Freestyle 2 [A] with the VIP3 Tenting Accessory[B] (for wrist rests and tenting) will run you $125 on Amazon.
It's got two independent halves that you can angle how you want, and put at actual shoulder width apart. It lacks the ortholinear layout, mechanical switches, and programmability of the Moonlander.
I went from the MS Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 (which I used for years and loved) to the Freestyle Pro (same layout, but with mechanical switches and programmability) and it made a huge difference in my posture and shoulder tension.
It definitely takes up less space than the MS 4000, but it's still two pretty bulky halves that don't pack up to travel particularly easily.
Awkward timing for me. I recently bought an Ergodox EZ and the main problem I have with it is that many of the thumbpad keys are too far away to comfortably use. I never thought of myself as having Trump-like tiny hands before but this keyboard looks perfect.
I wish people would just copy the MS Natural Ergonomic 4000, but with better keyswitches. As things stand, every split keyboard with nice keyswitches has a different layout from every other, which is odd, considering how much this type of device relies on muscle memory to work.
(Also, most of them miss one or more of F keys, symmetrical meta keys, standard navigation cluster layout, volume buttons - it's like they want their devices to be less useful, not more!)
Particularly annoying when there's such a wide range of non-split keyboards with nice keyswitches. You've got all the bizarre layouts you can eat, but you still get the option of a more standard one too.
I love mechanical keyboards. My favorite switch is ALPS.
But IMHO, the most ergonomic switches are low-travel ones. They increase my typing speed, reduce latency and make long sessions effortless.
Luckily, low-travel versions of many good quality keyboard switches are being produced and developed more often now to cater the gaming market.
For a simple, readily available option, I find the Apple Magic Keyboard more than good enough. It has really low latency [1]. I wonder if other low-travel switches are the same or if it has a particularly speedy firmware.
> I find the Apple Magic Keyboard more than good enough
I liked the previous gen better. It has slightly longer travel than the new one, very similar to the pre-butterfly Macbooks.
Having said that, I prefer the feel of the butterflies over the magic ones. Even though the travel is very short, it's very tactile.
I had a great surprise with the - haha - Raspberry Pi keyboard. It has a firm touch, good travel and small footprint. It feels much nicer than any keyboard in its price range has the right to feel.
I'd love to try the Kinesis, but I'm not sure I like its footprint. I already have a Unicomp 122-key Battlecruiser on my Linux box and it's quite enough .
I've found Kailh Blue low profile to be the sweet spot for mechanical but low travel. My absolute favorite keyboard is the HAVIT HV-KB395L [1], unfortunately the switches seem to not be very durable (or I'm just very rough on my keyboards). I have two broken ones around (left control key is flaky), considering if I want to buy another one.
This is literally the only keyboard I have found that uses those switches.
I have the TKL version of same keyboard and it is a great value for the price but it has several flaws. The Kailh Blue switches can click and not trigger if you don't press hard enough. So the audio feedback is basically worth nothing. Also there are no rubber feet at the back if you decide not to use the stands. There are also no rubber feet in the middle below the space bar where I would expect the keyboard to flex the most (it does only when pressing really hard though).
Kalih Brown are quite soft (40g) and quite low-travel (1.1 mm to actuation). I wish even softer Kalih scissor switches were an option.
Kalih Blue are an option if you prefer to pound more (not offered with this keyboard, though). But I only find clicky switches acceptable if you're working from home, or have a personal office. Sitting next to someone else's clicky keyboard is not all that enjoyable.
The new MBK caps for them are getting some good reviews. Though the one downside of Choc caps is they are directional. Some of the split layouts need 2u vertical and that just doesn't exist.
I'm decently happy with my Matias Ergo Pro [1]. They make their own ALPS-derived switches. Only other ALPS I've ever used are verrrrrry oldddddd Apple boards. Are there any other mass-produced ALPS keebs I should be aware of, or is it mostly just hobbyists harvesting old switches for custom boards?
I’m also a fan of low actuation force and short travel keyboards. I really like the Magic Keyboard in virtually every way except the key layout.
Reading through the various switches they offer, it seems the Kailh Silver might be the closest match of what they offer to Apple’s switches, but I sadly am not willing to spend nearly $400 to find out.
For a low-travel and ergonomic keyboard, check out the Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic. It's wireless and has a standard layout which doesn't require any learning, including a real row of function-keys, full size arrow-block and pg-up/down. And it just cost 1/4 of the Moonlander. No per-key dedicated backlight, no programmable ARM Cortex or any other thrills, it's just a simple, comfortable, plug in and start using keyboard. I wish they offered an even cheaper version without the silly Mouse in the package.
It has a reputation for bad build quality but i've been lucky with mine. Also be careful to not loose the wireless dongle as the keyboard becomes a brick without it.
As someone who uses an advantage kinesis & dvorak, laptops & dvorak, and other people's computers & qwerty:
You get used to switching back and forth in ~2 weeks.
If you spend all your day typing, definitely spend the $ and the time to learn to type on an ergonomic keyboard with good quality switches. I think the kinesis or maltron have the best research on their ergonomics & build quality. I highly recommend them.
The Kinesis is based on sound research. The Maltrons have a lot of keys positioned in ways that add nothing to ergonomics.
Maltron also makes the claim that you can type 80 wpm with their 1 handed keyboard but there seems to be no publicly available evidence of anyone getting anywhere near that fast.
I agree its pretty easy to switch back and forth between different split keyboards and to traditional keyboards.
I use an Ergodox-EZ and a Dactyl Manuform on a daily basis for 2 different systems.
I use an Ergodox-like keyboard (Centromere v2) and am currently typing on my laptop (normal Dell keyboard). I switch between the two completely effortlessly, without thinking about it.
I can no longer type on my old Das, though, as I haven't used it ever since I got the Centromere. I would not get a wireless keyboard now, it's not very unreliable, but enough to be a slight nuisance for no benefit.
I tried to use one for months before giving up because I felt it was too big. I mostly enjoyed typing in the key wells, but I ended up getting thumb pain because of how much I had to stretch my hand in order to reach the enter/backspace/modifier keys.
The Dactyl was partly modeled after the Kinesis. It has the key wells and a curved thumb cluster. Still, the thumb cluster isn't perfect and its hard for most people to reach all of the keys.
However, the Dactyl Manuform keeps the amazing key wells and has a completely redesigned thumb cluster.
Its also designed to be easily customizable. There are versions with 2,3,4,5 and 6 keys per thumb cluster. Unlike the original Dactyl, the Ergodox, and the Kinesis, I have no problems at all using all 6 keys per thumb cluster on the Dactyl Manuform. IMO its the best split keyboard unless you want to go for something smaller and use layers to gain access to more keys.
Unfortunately if you can't 3d print the case yourself and hand-wire it, its pretty expensive to acquire one. I just built mine recently and it almost instantly replaced my Ergodox-EZ as my favorite keyboard.
I ended up going with the Logitech ergonomic keyboard. It’s honestly not that different than a regular keyboard but it does the job.
Thanks for letting me know about dactyl though! For some reason that one flew under my radar. I guess I kinda gave up spending time looking for a perfect solution after I decided the Kinesis wasn’t working for me, but it looks like something that might work for me.
I realized I might have worded the above in a confusing way. You may have already understood in spite of that just in case there are 2 primary families of Dactyl keyboards, the Dactyl, and the Dactyl Manuform. The Manuform version has the better thumb cluster IMO.
The Dactyl is a beautiful piece of design and engineering, I've been thinking about getting one. What variation of Dactyl Manuform are you using, i.e. 4x6, 5x6?
I'm using the 5x6 layout. For me it seems like the fewest amount of keys (64) I can drop to without having to use layers. I pretty much only use layers for the function keys.
I just ordered a 5x6. I came to a similar conclusion. The 4x6 looks really cool, but I felt I was already pushing it in terms of the amount of change I was talking on, i.e. going from rectangle to a split, going from 75% layout to ~60%, etc. I may try out a smaller model if I really love the Dactyl and want to experiment more with layers.
Exactly this. If you have distinct work and personal computers and setups, use different keyboards and layouts for each. The learning curve takes a couple months for good proficiency, but the ability to manually switch modes at a moment's notice is an enormous boon that saves you from having to reconfigure everyone else's keyboards just to type, or making continual mistakes when doing so.
Yes, I can switch between layouts, and I don't mind doing it when it's for short periods on other people's PCs. I just draw the line at having to do it for the PCs I use regularly. I use this thing for 6-8 hours a day. Comfort and familiarity is what I want, and I want it now, with no retraining required. I may be stuck in local minimum, but I'll take that risk.
So I am just wondering why it's so hard to find a nice split keyboard with a standard layout. (And symmetrical meta keys.) It's not like this layout is unusual. That's what I find so odd about this!
I'm a recent'ish convert from the MS Natural Ergonomic after decades. I'm glad I switched.
Ortholinear layout really is better but as the marketing says, it takes a bit and is a journey.
I have missed the clustered nav keys but have also really enjoyed having them closer to standard hand placement.
The 'layering' approach makes the function keys as simple as ctrl-×.
FWIW, I'm a happy customer and you may need to read this comment accordingly. I'd suggest it might be worth trying it out. I still have my MS keyboard but never want to use it.
I want a more ergonomic keyboard since I may be developing wrist problems, but I don't understand why none of them seem to have function keys. I use the function keys all the time and when I switch to a 40% layout I get seriously annoyed by the lack of them and end up going back to a full layout keyboard because of it. I spent twenty minutes searching for a split keyboard with function keys and found only one thread where someone made a "theoretical" split layout with function keys and discussed it for a long time, and then gave up in the end by going back to a function-keyless keyboard and saying that he simply learned to live without them and even argued that having no function keys is healthier as it reduces finger movement, so there's no real point in having them.
Is this some kind of cultural thing, where nobody in the DIY keyboard space is interested in making such a keyboard, even though there are keyboards marketed as ergonomic with cheap dome switches I don't prefer but still have function keys? Are "split keyboard" and "function keys" mutually exclusive properties? I don't understand.
Most reduced ergo keyboards are heavily reliant upon layers to provide access to function keys, media keys, numpad, etc. I have several ergo keyboards, and my favorite (and one I'm currently typing on) is the Atreus [1]. In the default configuration it's one press with the thumb to access the numpad without moving the hand [2], and another keypress puts the function keys there instead (with the same layout for 1-9) [3]. This is all customizable of course.
It definitely takes some getting used to, but once you do it's such an efficient and enjoyable typing experience.
I understand, I've used a 40% layout (Poker II) and I liked the keyfeel and portability. I did like typing on it way more than using my laptop's keyboard. I liked everything about it except the fact that I ended up trying to use the arrow or function keys or numpad all the time for things like I used to with my larger keyboards (gamedev), get tired of mispressing them over and over, and end up going back to a full layout keyboard. (I'm typing this on a Filco Majestouch.) If I'm understanding the links correctly the Atreus doesn't even have a number row, which at least the Poker had.
Maybe I just haven't fully internalized the "you'll get used to it after some time" part yet. Maybe the "some time" part is actually around six months of continuous usage instead of about three. I'm not sure.
The Kinesis does look pretty interesting, I'm doing some research on it. $349 seems a bit pricey, but at least it does have the full key layout (even if the function keys are rubber).
For what it's worth, I don't find the ML switches on my Advantage 2 nor the rubber domes on my Advantage 1 particularly offensive; if you are using the function keys constantly then your viewpoint might differ.
I think the reason for lack of f keys is a two fold:
1. It's cheaper and easier to have less switches on a board. Some people are using switches that push a dollar or more a switch. That's an extra ten bucks for keys that... most people don't use that often. It also makes it easier for board layout I imagine, but I'll admit I don't have much knowledge on creation of custom PCBs.
2. One of the things I've seen complained about with the Ergodox and the reason most of the variants (Gergo, Iris, Corne) is the same thing your friend said. The extra keys that aren't in easy reach add more hand movement. When you have a thumb cluster as a lot of these boards do adding more layers is relatively trivial. Most of these boards have software that lets you output macros as well meaning that you can essentially output key short cuts that would have used the f keys, or any other 3 plus combination of keys as just two. Germ over a Gboards has taken this concept to absurdity with the Ginny. It has ten keys and is heavily inspired by stenography style chording.
I used to be in your boat, not thinking I'd ever want something smaller then maybe a 75% or ten keyless. However I recently got a 64% keyboard that has a split space bar. I'll admit I haven't found myself missing the f keys as much as I thought I would. The closer positioning of the arrow keys has left my elbows feeling better at the end of the day. It's also close enough to a normal keyboard that even with a few substitutions (esc is now where caps lock is. Backspace is right thumb.) my muscle memory seems to be fine when switching back and forth.
Thanks for the details, that makes sense. Maybe I'm just a bit too grounded in my thought process from using full key layouts all the time. I guess this means if I'm wanting to go more ergonomic while still staying in the mechanical keyboard sphere then I really would just have to get used to macros, because having one key serve multiple purposes means needing less space for keys to be socketed, meaning less hand movement, meaning less hand strain.
Also, a lot of people seem to have macropads or separate numpads and use them for basically the exact same purpose I'm currently using the function keys for, so that could be a good compromise if I still want something like the Ergodox with a split layout.
Well they are more time consuming and expensive to build for hobbyists, but I think that the main reason is that when you get a fully programmable keyboard it enables a lot of useful features that obviate things like dedicated function keys and the number pad. Using a columnar/grid key layout the number pad is strictly obviated by a layer switch to number pad keys under the right hand, and I use the same layer on my left hand for the function keys. It's honestly a lot easier this way having F1 thru F4 on the homerow. Coupled with "sticky modifiers" so that they can be tapped instead of being held down to do things like Alt+F4 I don't have any desire to go back to dedicated function keys.
Keeb.io has a split keyboard with F keys on top, and macro keys on the left. Not a full layout with a numpad, but getting closer. I built a Quefrency by them and like it a lot.
I have washed a regular keyboards in a dishwasher, electronics and all. Works fine; the downside is that it takes too long to dry. It can take several days before the last bits of moisture stop interfering with the membrane contacts.
Therefore, of course disassembly is the preferred approach. It is fairly simple for most cheap membrane keyboards, like from Dell or Logitech and whatever. You unscrew some dozen or so screws, and and then the top cover which houses the keycaps separates from the bottom. Removing the top reveals the silicone sheet that provides the rubber domes for the key action and protects the internals from spills and debris. That rubber sheet removes easily; it is just loosely placed over the membrane switch board.
You can wash the keycap housing in a dishwasher without popping the caps off at all. The rubber sheet can hand-washed in seconds in the sink with some soap and water.
A billion years ago (2006 or so probably), I impulse bought four or five of the Elite model all at once. Probably to save on shipping or some dumb thing, I don't remember. At the time I had gone through three of the keyboards by spilling water on them. Even a little water destroys the membranes inside, so I was like hey, I'll just stock up so I don't have to wait to order.
Then they stopped making them. I have one remaining in storage, and two in active usage. One of those (this one I'm typing on now) has a flakey 1 key. I'm really dreading the day I finally destroy it and have to find some new keyboard to replace it. Nothing I've ever seen compares to the original MS Natural Elite.
Agreed, that keyboard minus the numeric keypad and equipped with Cherry Blue switches is basically my dream keyboard. I use a Filco Majestouch 2 and it's great but I prefer the MS keyboard's ergo layout for sure.
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[ 4.5 ms ] story [ 265 ms ] threadMaking this even more concrete, I am in the market for some new keyboards, and at least one of them is one I'd like to write my own firmware for. Rust is far more supported on ARM chips than on some of the other popular chips that are used to build keyboards, and so knowing this has one makes me more likely to buy it than others. I don't want this specific keyboard, so it isn't a win for me, but there are surely dozens of folks like me, dozens!
The jump from that to this ARMv5 CPU is similar to that from this ARMv5 to an Intel Xeon. And sure enough, if someone were to build a keyboard with an Intel Xeon, you could also program that from Rust. But the question still remains: why would anybody do that ?
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That's correct, yes. I guess I didn't say that explicitly, but that's another decent reason to advertise this, it's not exactly the norm.
(And for my personal quest, the latest Rust nightlies do work on AVR!)
Specifically, this has a STM32F303xC. Looks like (depending on quantity, of course), you're looking at $3 to $5. Their other well-known keyboard, the Ergodox EZ, uses an ATMEGA32U4-AU. It's also $3 or $4 on Mouser. I don't know what the actual BOM looks like in total, but it seems like this isn't significantly different in price? Especially at the likely volumes here?
I'm still new to this game, so maybe I'm missing something.
Meet the Ferris keeb that was just recently developed. Currently built using QMK but will eventually have Rust firmware. https://github.com/pierrechevalier83/ferris
There's also https://github.com/TeXitoi/keyberon
Was just looking at that yesterday.
Also, to me the Moonlander keyboard and its keycaps do not seem particularly tall.
It's hard to get a good wrist rest - they seem to last for a month or a year on amazon, and when I want to re-order, they are unavailable.
I have a memory foam one about 3-4" deep and the width of the keyboard. It is soft enough, lifts and supports my wrists and keeps them warm.
I think the wrist support on this moonlander keyboard is a good idea, but making it out of cold, hard plastic does not make it look comfortable.
When the switch bottoms out, it's like your fingers have hit a wall: this is the norm with most membrane switch designs, and with linear mechanical switches, which are usually light. With tactile and clicky switches, the concept is to reduce bottoming out by indicating the activation with heavier force partway through the downstroke. A pairing of heavy keycaps and heavy tactile switches is often considered satisfying for typists because then the heft of the switch has been balanced out; a light tap will fling the key down past the tactile bump and spring it up without the same degree of muscle activation as a linear switch. And it is possible to have "too heavy" keycaps for the switch, which simply won't work(always activated).
With the key height, as well, what will matter is tension at rest, which will depend on overall posture. In theory you move the keyboard down if the keys are taller.
Looks line ZSA is borrowing Kinesis's idea of putting a number of special keys into a "thumb-bar". Not sure if Kinesis actually invented that idea, but I think they were the first to bring it to market.
And yes, the Moonlander looks very interesting!
Maltron keyboards are excellent but expensive and hard to source, particularly outside of the UK.
I've had an Advantage as my daily driver for 14 years. I've only ever had to replace the rest pads.
It's a fantastic and VERY VERY comfortable keyboard, but you do have a little bit of a learning curve due to the unusual layout.
It's also wired and has no backlight, but simple is sometimes better.
Kinesis could of course have gone with an ortholinear layout but they didn't because the layout they chose much better maps to the actual geometry of the hand. Yes, it takes a few hours to learn to adapt, typically spread out over a couple days, but no that's not difficult and no it doesn't impact your ability to jump over to a normal keyboard.
100% stop to serious repetitive stress injury problems I had been experiencing with other keyboards, fully programmable layout, and a great high grade mechanical design that's lasted a decade or more without complaint.
My main complaint about the Advantage is that I kept hitting the arrow buttons in the bottom row unintentionally. Partly poor typing form, I'm sure, and of course I could have remapped them.
The other thing is that the Advantage is tall, so it's not great up on a desk, and it's not that comfortable on your lap. I think it's best in a tray, although some trays may not be tall enough for it.
As for the Freestyle, I like the split design, the customizable layout, and the customizable lighting (I have a different color for QWERTY and Dvorak). Add a couple of USB ports, and it would be nearly perfect. The "6" key is on the wrong half, and I might experiment with a layout that isn't staggered typewriter style.
I do tend to fidget with the position of the Freestyle throughout the day. This is another keyboard that might work better in a tray.
I don't know if I'd call this Moonlander "next generation," but it's an intriguing combination of what I like in the Advantage and Freestyle.
It's more like an iteration of previous models, with some small tweaks and perks.
But I'm happy that split keyboard market is getting more and more attention.
I love the idea of customization but the flatness has me looking at all these as non-starters.
There are DIY mods that people have done to be able to run e.q., QMK as well as make them bluetooth.
My impression is that people who really want the concave keywells are building variations of the Dactyl Manuform.
Personally, after using the Kinesis Advantage for many years, I'm going a different direction... fewer keys, lower profile, etc. E.g., Corne, Kyria, Ferris.
I find it pretty easy to switch between laptop keyboard and Advantage2, so no problems there. So the Advantage2 remains on my desk while I just use my laptop's keyboard for meetings/on-the-go. I think the layouts are so different, my brain processes them separately.
But making the jump to the modern, smaller splits + multiple layers, etc. is another huge jump in ergonomics... and they are portable enough to travel with.
Most of the people still don't know about them. If more people knew about the benefits they bring, problems they solve, they would be much more popular. That would bring the price down, increase the choices available, bring them closer to the users. So you could probably go to a local shop and test it.
But they would lose the exclusivity feeling they have now. Which one do you choose?
Sure, it would be harder to tell who the early adopters are, in case it is any measure of skill or determination, but that's a trade-off I would be happy with - instead of being the odd ones out, we'd be pioneers setting the trend ;)
Let's be philosophical: A journey of a thousand miles begins with a first step. We'll get there.
1) the rubber legs tend to fall out and go missing 2) they’re very susceptible to static electricity shocks on the exposed metal parts 3) the usb cable connector is fragile and I’d you move much, it can get damaged inside the keyboard requiring you open it up to fix. I wish they had used usb-c and put it in a better/easier location.
Issue 1 has been fixed quite a while ago. We provide spare rubber feet if you need some. I'm unsure if we faced with issue 2 because your description doesn't contain many details about this one. As for issue 3, this is quite a rare one, and we'll provide a new UHK version featuring USB-C and tons of improvements.
PS: I'm the founder of the UHK. I may forget about this thread, but feel free to reach us via https://UltimateHackingKeyboard.com/
I live in a dry area, in the winter sometimes when I sit down to type a static shock will go off if I brush the edges of the case where there is exposed metal. When this happens it will often lead to the keyboard disconnecting from usb. Or staying connected (power on) but not responding to input. So far unplugging and replugging has always fixed it, but it's an annoying feature.
Re: #3 ...
Glad to hear that you're making design changes to fix this. It has happened on two of my boards now where the usb connection has become loose. I contacted support on it a few months ago and they suggested I try to open up the case and fix it. I haven't been able to do that yet but will give it a try.
I would also have preserved the full layout, to prevent having to needlessly retrain some muscle memory, but being able to do things like remap "Tab+hjkl" to "{}[]" is fantastic.
I should actually finish writing up that post I started writing in December...
I can pay for innovation but this style is old
It's become about completing myself. Filling the void. Materialism: the belief that acquisition of something outside myself will finally bring me permanent satisfaction. But if you'll excuse the metaphor, the void we try to fill is a black hole of the cosmic variety: its pull grows as it is fed. Shoveling in expensive ergonomic equipment is little different from shoes or bags or guns or radios or funko pops.
Anyway, this next $250 I spend on an endlessly-adjustible retractable keyboard tray & fancy ergonomic keyboard will surely address all my complaints...
It is and it isn't. It depends if/when you stop. I just got $250 keyboard. My last one was also in that range. Though it lasted me around 10 years.
I don't think its evil wanting to have nice things. Its problem when 'you life to buy things, not buy things to live.'
I have never peeked over the price wall into the higher end stuff because it genuinely has never occurred to me that my current keyboard+mouse were hindering my productivity.
High contrast screen? Sure, squinting hurts. Office-cancelling headphones? Sure, loud noises ruin my concentration
But keyboard and mouse have never been am issue... When did you start to suspect that you needed to get a better keyboard?
I've indulged in a nicer keyboard once before, but only because I was intrigued by the novelty of mechanical keycaps. Now I'm thinking that I'll need to take the plunge and get something more ergonomic, because I've still got a lot of career left.
(However, after buying a mech keyboard to deal with finger joint pain, and training myself to type without bottoming out much, I discovered I was typing faster.)
(1) Ensuring your chair, desk, and keyboard are set up so your wrists are straight when typing
(2) Using a split/tilted keyboard so your wrists do not need to rotate as much when you type
(3) Using a vertical mouse so your wrist does not need to rotate as much when mousing
You can accomplish all of this for very cheap. A bit more than you're spending, but not an order of magnitude more (unless your desk or chair are very bad). Once you get into mechanical keyswitches or exotic keyboard layouts you're just messing around imo. Membrane keyboards are fine. They're fine! And very quiet.
I'm going to switch to either a goldtouch or kinesis freestyle soon, since I don't like the number pad. Those are $80-$120 but I hope the build quality will pay off in the long run.
I have the Kenesis Freestyle2 and I find it unusable without retraining much of my muscle memory.
1. The extra 2 columns of keys on the left edge somehow reliably disorients me.
2. the lack of an extra (potentially redundant) row of keys on the inner edges throws me off b/c I tend to reach across the middle from either side, e.g. press B with my right hand.
For those looking for a cheap split keyboard, a used microsoft sculpt can be found around $40 on eBay.
I've had RSI issues in the past, but this spring (when I bought those two), I was in intense pain for days at a time, even when not at my desk. Otherwise good ergonomic setup: external monitor, adjustable desk and good chair, etc.
I'd suggest you at least take small steps to improve/optimize your ergonomics before you have a problem. It really does suck to be in pain like that, especially when doing your work, which you have to do to pay the bills, makes it worse. I was looking forward to weekends just for some relief.
For what it's worth, having a programmable keyboard is super cool even without the ergonomic benefits. It's just fun to tinker and optimize your layout, macros, etc.
I wish I cared more earlier. The injury in my left thumb may never go away fully, and it’s taken me a really long time to come to peace with that.
Or, maybe better, glue on a stopwatch.
That'd be an interesting feature honestly.
https://www.workwhilewalking.com/do-treadmill-desks-actually...
The price seems irrelevant based on the rest of your post (I mean, assuming spending $250 doesn't put you at financial risks). The only question that you should ask yourself (but I'm sure you already know) is if you need a new and better keyboard or not.
there's more to keyboards. why do i have a nice one? to enjoy the typing experience - feedback + sound + appearance.
nothing wrong with nice things that make your life better. i spend an obscene amount of time with a keyboard. i want the experience to be as perfected as possible.
specific to this keyboard: i want an ergo layout, but would not buy this keyboard unless there was a switch-less and cap-less option - 365 (plus fees + taxes + shipping/whatever) is a lot to pay and then also buy switches and keycaps
I wish that there was a keyboard company out there that focused on standard keyboards with attention paid to supporting all locales. Choice for the US consumer might be great but elsewhere in the English speaking world you start getting compromises. Essentially you can get a US keyboard with a few of the keycaps moved around. What you actually want is more than that, things like a double height enter key.
I dread to think what keyboard layout crimes go on outside the English speaking world.
Now, tenkeyless. Having the number pad is great if you do a lot of book-keeping but for most people it is not needed. If you are left handed then it makes as much sense as a fish with a bicycle.
But getting to know the jargon - 'tenkeyless' and 'tkl' is a journey in itself. If you are using your keyoboard to type words then you do want the keys for navigation - Page Up, Page Down, Home, End, Delete - plus the arrow keys. But mini keyboards just mess with the layout to maybe give you half the standard keys in non-standard places.
So, effectively 'tkl' plus a non-US locale means you are going to have a limited choice.
Now let's put in a few other common requirements - backlighting, wireless and wired operation, coffee proofing and silent operation. You can't get all these things with a non US locale and a 'tkl' keyboard. Sure there are many switch variants and fancy LED lighting schemes with ghastly keycap designs, but if you just want standard layout then it isn't going to happen.
It is sad to see Logitech, Microsoft and others offer us compromised designs that cost either a pittance of serious money. Why can't there just be a manufacturer that goes for the niche of standard ISO rather than ergonomic, or with too few keys, or with some emphasis on buckling spring style feel?
Those features are what the mass consumer market wants. Also, I'm sure Logitech and Microsoft have always offered a standard ISO keyboard.
> Ergonomic
People value the long-term health of their wrists.
> Too few keys
Usually to reduce desk space. In the case of the Planck, it's also to reduce finger travel.
> Emphasis on key feel
If I'm typing at my job all day, I want the thousands of keypresses I do to feel good.
> niche of standard ISO
Honestly, I think standard ISO/ANSI is awful -- the vast amount of design decisions are a relic of the typewriter age.
The rows are staggered because typewriter keyboards had physical vertical bars under the keys that would otherwise overlap. An ortholinear solution makes much more sense in the modern age.
The second most-used key, backspace, is positioned in the far right corner of the keyboard. One must move their entire right hand (or have a long pinky) to hit it. The spacebar, on the other hand, is wasted real estate because it completely occupies two of the strongest digits -- the thumbs. Thus, a better solution would be to split the spacebar with one half being backspace.
This isn't even going into the nightmare that is QWERTY. Regardless of keyboard, almost everyone is using an inefficient layout designed to place common keys away from each other.
Conclusion: just because it's standard doesn't mean it's the best choice. IMO, when it comes to keyboard layouts, the standard is the worst choice.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_and_American_keyboards
US keyboards don't. There is a backslash key above the single row enter key. Which is a key I have no real great use for. Maybe it rocked in the MS-DOS days but backslash doesn't really need that priority place.
So look at the Logitech keyboards for the UK. They offer one model with the true layout, i.e. a double height enter key. The rest have some US keys with UK labels on.
Now look at Microsoft. Again there is some massive backslash key instead of an ISO UK keyboard in all its glory.
What happens is that they take the US board and change a few of the key caps. They do not go to the effort of doing it properly.
There are other layouts, for example, German, that should have the big enter key.
Standards might not be optimal solutions. But at least you know where you are. You know what to expect. But with keyboards nobody sticks to the standards. If you look at the Logitech ones for instance they all have different fudges, such as arrow keys mangled together differently, just enough to trip you up if swapping between Logitech keyboards. Then things like rounding off the corner keys including escape. They do these awful design decisions on far too many of their keyboards.
The tenkeyless requirement is reasonable, laptops don't tend to have the num-pad. But is there a tkl keyboard out there with a standard ISO layout? Not if you combine that feature with wireless or a desire for backlighting. Nevermind switch choice.
Some people struggle with an Apple keypad due to the different modifier keys. God help anyone having to press a few keys on any of the ZSA boards. Might as well learn Dvorak keyboards. Or go all the way with a chord keyboard. QWERTY works and we all know it is not the best. But standards are not kept to when you move out of the US layout.
For the real classic look, I just had to replace the 2 oddly colored keycaps (provided in the box).
The dealbreaker for me is the connectivity. A keyboard should be able to connect over a wire (and/or a wireless dongle), Bluetooth 3, Bluetooth 5 and telepathy.
A £10 mouse can connect with a dongle that is stored inside the mouse, or via BT 3/5. There are chips for this.
I might have to send an email in block caps to Durgod with my demands, since their products are so nice, down to the keycaps labels.
Thanks for the tip.
Having started with very generic ergonomic keyboards, and now progressing to hand built keyboards have taught me that if you are experiencing some sort of tendon, nerve, or joint issues from standard keyboard use, you really need to dive into the deep end and get the most ergonomic thing out there even if $300 for a keyboard, when you can buy one for under $20, sounds incredibly expensive. If you don't, you'll likely end up paying that much to just keep fixing or improving the situation. And if you don't try to fix the situation you'll pay for it in damage to your hands which to me has no monetary value* .
I might still choose to build the manuform, but it's nice that there's an option out there with adjustable thumb keys, I've never seen that before and I hope it becomes a trend in the split ergonomic keyboard world.
[1] https://tomoakley.me/article/2020/01/1-month-with-the-dactyl...
[2] https://blog.splitkb.com/blog/introducing-the-kyria
* okay, maybe there is an exact amount in terms of how much money you can no longer make through typing ability that is lost, but my point is there is an intrinsic value to having fully functional hands.
And I like that you can download templates so you can print them out and find the right size.
So the ~200 I spent on my custom Dactyl that has actually taken my pain from a level ~4 to near 0 is really a drop in the bucket for my health.
(+1 for the DM! I have the normal Dactyl because a thumb injury makes the cluster unusable for me, but I have plenty of friends who love the DM.)
For me, on the existing flat thumb ergos, hitting the thumb buttons with the side of the thumb actually feels normal to me in terms of thumb & wrist motion. The primary issue is the angles and arc of the splaying of the thumb to hit the keys without having to contort my thumbs any. This is my biggest issue with the Kinesis Advantage and ErgoDox.
The second biggest factor is that the tall Cherry style switches and keycaps requires a lot of travel distance for activation. One the more recent ergo boards, I've switched to lower profile switches and that makes a non-trivial improvement as well. My upcoming build is with the choc minis + low profile keycaps but with heavier springs so they feel more like the last generation of the 17" MBP keyboard (as opposed the crap that's Apple's done with their recent keys).
As it is, it seems too short to comfortably have each half to my sides when laying down.
There isn't anything this does that the ErgoDox-EZ doesn't do, besides the adjustable thumb cluster and apparent build quality.
I wouldn't call this a next-generation ergonomic keyboard unless it also had integrated pointing device options like the UHK has.
I like the visuals of the ErgoDox-EZ the most, but still willing to wait for the new keyboard.io, whenever that one comes out.
For me, at least, it's not a big win. I'm mostly touching the inner edge of the key because my pinkies aren't that laterally flexible.
I like a lot of tilt and low to the desk, and that extra 0.5u of width ends up raising the whole thing more than it needs to.
I have large hands and the ErgoDox thumb cluster is just too damn far away. Bringing it within reach is a meaningful improvement.
The thumb clusters need to be bigger and closer to the alphas so they're more powerful and more easily reached.
My board: https://flic.kr/p/LJdbeC
I started out with an Atreus42 in 2016 and really loved it, so I totally get that outer columns are superfluous in most circumstances. The same could be said about most extra features on this ZSA Moonlander board overall, although I think there's some utility in being able to leverage the non-essential keys when it's convenient, especially when it costs that much. Say for example one wants to use it for gaming - most games expect there to be an outer column.
(Shameless plug) Here's my keymap. It doesn't require outer columns, and needs just 34 keys: https://github.com/1MachineElf/qmk_firmware/tree/sb4dv/planc...
It’s concave!
[1]: https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2/
I also highly recommend a split keyboard in general: my shoulder issues are noticeably better when using them.
A split keyboard may not help with wrist pain. Personally I was able to get rid of any wrist pain by strengthening through climbing.
If someone wants a first split keyboard though I think the Freestyle Edge is a much better starting point given the price difference and the fact that the non-letter/number keys don't have normal placements on the Moonlander.
Personally I tried the ErgoDox EZ and had to return it because it damaged my productivity since it doesn't support just using a normal keyboard layout. With a closer look this keyboard seems fundamentally the same actually so I wouldn't recommend considering to try it unless you use a keyboard all day long and even then be prepared to return it if it doesn't work out. The Freestyle Edge on the other hand is a sure bet.
The keyboard is programmable using a visual editor or C code: https://github.com/dharmab/ergodox
This keyboard seems to solve both of those problems so I may take the plunge and buy one.
You can also download the source code of your keyboard;s layout, program it and flash it yourself. It's called QMK
Here's mine: https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/ergodox-ez/layouts/64YXl/la...
Last but not least, on this keyboard and most mechanical keyboards you have the ability to change keycaps to whatever you want.
I'm a touch typist, so i switched to blank keycaps https://pimpmykeyboard.com/dcs-blank-keysets/
The minimalism idea is that since these are all programmable, we can design them to require much less finger/hand movement by taking more advantage of layers, various strategies of key activation, key layouts, etc.
There's an active Discord for the whole genre of the smaller, 40% keyboards.
We can't be the only ones surely? It's such an obvious problem and they all get it wrong.
Also keycap set makers generally just include one of every key.
I wouldn't hold my breath on the Topre front, the company is notoriously conservative in their offerings. They're also not mechanical switches; there's really no way to offer hotswap Topre switches. But there is a whole world out there other than Topre and Cherry. And you can swap them out easily since you have an ergodox ez. You can buy mechanical switches from several hobby sites like https://novelkeys.xyz/collections/switches, it's pretty much plug and play
I wonder if you could put an Arduino into the MS Sculpt and get the best of both worlds. Or maybe you could make an Arduino with a USB port and just have it remap keys on the fly.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69169.0
https://www.1upkeyboards.com/shop/controllers/usb-to-usb-con...
It's got two independent halves that you can angle how you want, and put at actual shoulder width apart. It lacks the ortholinear layout, mechanical switches, and programmability of the Moonlander.
I went from the MS Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 (which I used for years and loved) to the Freestyle Pro (same layout, but with mechanical switches and programmability) and it made a huge difference in my posture and shoulder tension.
It definitely takes up less space than the MS 4000, but it's still two pretty bulky halves that don't pack up to travel particularly easily.
[A] https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle2-for-pc-us/ [B] https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle2-vip3-accessory/
(Also, most of them miss one or more of F keys, symmetrical meta keys, standard navigation cluster layout, volume buttons - it's like they want their devices to be less useful, not more!)
Particularly annoying when there's such a wide range of non-split keyboards with nice keyswitches. You've got all the bizarre layouts you can eat, but you still get the option of a more standard one too.
But IMHO, the most ergonomic switches are low-travel ones. They increase my typing speed, reduce latency and make long sessions effortless.
Luckily, low-travel versions of many good quality keyboard switches are being produced and developed more often now to cater the gaming market.
For a simple, readily available option, I find the Apple Magic Keyboard more than good enough. It has really low latency [1]. I wonder if other low-travel switches are the same or if it has a particularly speedy firmware.
[1] https://danluu.com/keyboard-latency/
I liked the previous gen better. It has slightly longer travel than the new one, very similar to the pre-butterfly Macbooks.
Having said that, I prefer the feel of the butterflies over the magic ones. Even though the travel is very short, it's very tactile.
I had a great surprise with the - haha - Raspberry Pi keyboard. It has a firm touch, good travel and small footprint. It feels much nicer than any keyboard in its price range has the right to feel.
I'd love to try the Kinesis, but I'm not sure I like its footprint. I already have a Unicomp 122-key Battlecruiser on my Linux box and it's quite enough .
This is literally the only keyboard I have found that uses those switches.
[1] https://www.prohavit.com/products/hv-kb395l-low-profile-mech...
Kalih Blue are an option if you prefer to pound more (not offered with this keyboard, though). But I only find clicky switches acceptable if you're working from home, or have a personal office. Sitting next to someone else's clicky keyboard is not all that enjoyable.
It’s better than the cancerous lump of excrement that is the Magic Mouse 2 though.
For low profile switches there is the Kailh Choc family, though there is a limited choice of caps.
[1] https://matias.ca/ergopro/programmable/
Reading through the various switches they offer, it seems the Kailh Silver might be the closest match of what they offer to Apple’s switches, but I sadly am not willing to spend nearly $400 to find out.
It has a reputation for bad build quality but i've been lucky with mine. Also be careful to not loose the wireless dongle as the keyboard becomes a brick without it.
Fn keys do suck tho and are cheap. Also, forearm gets dirty in few days and keyboard start to look like it is used for years.
I also gave silly mouse a chance and it turns out I like it very much now - not for games but otherwise very good and fits in hand great.
You get used to switching back and forth in ~2 weeks.
If you spend all your day typing, definitely spend the $ and the time to learn to type on an ergonomic keyboard with good quality switches. I think the kinesis or maltron have the best research on their ergonomics & build quality. I highly recommend them.
Maltron also makes the claim that you can type 80 wpm with their 1 handed keyboard but there seems to be no publicly available evidence of anyone getting anywhere near that fast.
I agree its pretty easy to switch back and forth between different split keyboards and to traditional keyboards.
I use an Ergodox-EZ and a Dactyl Manuform on a daily basis for 2 different systems.
I can no longer type on my old Das, though, as I haven't used it ever since I got the Centromere. I would not get a wireless keyboard now, it's not very unreliable, but enough to be a slight nuisance for no benefit.
The Dactyl was partly modeled after the Kinesis. It has the key wells and a curved thumb cluster. Still, the thumb cluster isn't perfect and its hard for most people to reach all of the keys.
However, the Dactyl Manuform keeps the amazing key wells and has a completely redesigned thumb cluster.
Its also designed to be easily customizable. There are versions with 2,3,4,5 and 6 keys per thumb cluster. Unlike the original Dactyl, the Ergodox, and the Kinesis, I have no problems at all using all 6 keys per thumb cluster on the Dactyl Manuform. IMO its the best split keyboard unless you want to go for something smaller and use layers to gain access to more keys.
Unfortunately if you can't 3d print the case yourself and hand-wire it, its pretty expensive to acquire one. I just built mine recently and it almost instantly replaced my Ergodox-EZ as my favorite keyboard.
Thanks for letting me know about dactyl though! For some reason that one flew under my radar. I guess I kinda gave up spending time looking for a perfect solution after I decided the Kinesis wasn’t working for me, but it looks like something that might work for me.
So I am just wondering why it's so hard to find a nice split keyboard with a standard layout. (And symmetrical meta keys.) It's not like this layout is unusual. That's what I find so odd about this!
Ortholinear layout really is better but as the marketing says, it takes a bit and is a journey.
I have missed the clustered nav keys but have also really enjoyed having them closer to standard hand placement.
The 'layering' approach makes the function keys as simple as ctrl-×.
FWIW, I'm a happy customer and you may need to read this comment accordingly. I'd suggest it might be worth trying it out. I still have my MS keyboard but never want to use it.
Is this some kind of cultural thing, where nobody in the DIY keyboard space is interested in making such a keyboard, even though there are keyboards marketed as ergonomic with cheap dome switches I don't prefer but still have function keys? Are "split keyboard" and "function keys" mutually exclusive properties? I don't understand.
EDIT: Okay, I did not look hard enough at all.
https://www.zergotech.com/
This looks like the kind of keyboard I would be interested in using.
It definitely takes some getting used to, but once you do it's such an efficient and enjoyable typing experience.
[1] https://atreus.technomancy.us/ keyboard.io also recently completed a kickstarter campaign for mass-produced Atreuses and are taking pre-orders for the next run: https://shop.keyboard.io/products/keyboardio-atreus
[2] https://atreus.technomancy.us/i/layout-fn.svg
[3] https://atreus.technomancy.us/i/layout-bonus.svg
Maybe I just haven't fully internalized the "you'll get used to it after some time" part yet. Maybe the "some time" part is actually around six months of continuous usage instead of about three. I'm not sure.
1. It's cheaper and easier to have less switches on a board. Some people are using switches that push a dollar or more a switch. That's an extra ten bucks for keys that... most people don't use that often. It also makes it easier for board layout I imagine, but I'll admit I don't have much knowledge on creation of custom PCBs.
2. One of the things I've seen complained about with the Ergodox and the reason most of the variants (Gergo, Iris, Corne) is the same thing your friend said. The extra keys that aren't in easy reach add more hand movement. When you have a thumb cluster as a lot of these boards do adding more layers is relatively trivial. Most of these boards have software that lets you output macros as well meaning that you can essentially output key short cuts that would have used the f keys, or any other 3 plus combination of keys as just two. Germ over a Gboards has taken this concept to absurdity with the Ginny. It has ten keys and is heavily inspired by stenography style chording.
I used to be in your boat, not thinking I'd ever want something smaller then maybe a 75% or ten keyless. However I recently got a 64% keyboard that has a split space bar. I'll admit I haven't found myself missing the f keys as much as I thought I would. The closer positioning of the arrow keys has left my elbows feeling better at the end of the day. It's also close enough to a normal keyboard that even with a few substitutions (esc is now where caps lock is. Backspace is right thumb.) my muscle memory seems to be fine when switching back and forth.
Also, a lot of people seem to have macropads or separate numpads and use them for basically the exact same purpose I'm currently using the function keys for, so that could be a good compromise if I still want something like the Ergodox with a split layout.
Keeb.io has a split keyboard with F keys on top, and macro keys on the left. Not a full layout with a numpad, but getting closer. I built a Quefrency by them and like it a lot.
Same, but for the Natural Keyboard Pro[1].
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_ergonomic_keyboards#...
How much disassembly does that take? Can't imagine water being too good for the USB hub electronics & such.
Therefore, of course disassembly is the preferred approach. It is fairly simple for most cheap membrane keyboards, like from Dell or Logitech and whatever. You unscrew some dozen or so screws, and and then the top cover which houses the keycaps separates from the bottom. Removing the top reveals the silicone sheet that provides the rubber domes for the key action and protects the internals from spills and debris. That rubber sheet removes easily; it is just loosely placed over the membrane switch board.
You can wash the keycap housing in a dishwasher without popping the caps off at all. The rubber sheet can hand-washed in seconds in the sink with some soap and water.
That's pretty much it.
Then they stopped making them. I have one remaining in storage, and two in active usage. One of those (this one I'm typing on now) has a flakey 1 key. I'm really dreading the day I finally destroy it and have to find some new keyboard to replace it. Nothing I've ever seen compares to the original MS Natural Elite.