From Wikpedia [0]: Lai was born in Guangdong, China in December 1948. At the age of 12, he entered Hong Kong as a stowaway on a boat. Upon his arrival, Lai began work as a child-laborer in a garment factory for a wage of $8 per month. ... Net worth US$1.2 billion (2008)
What an incredible character. Arresting a man like that has to be one of the most straightforward own-goals that a nation can manage.
I understand what they're getting at, I think, but "pro-democracy tycoon" has to be one of the funniest oxymorons I've seen in serious print (at least on its face).
In the US at least, many (most?) tycoons are involved with lobbying of the sort that destroys the function of democracy, even though they leave the form.
Can you expand more how it destroys the definition of democracy:
> Democracy (Greek: δημοκρατία, dēmokratiā, from dēmos 'people' and kratos 'rule') is a form of government in which the people have the authority to choose their governing legislation. Who people are and how authority is shared among them are core issues for democratic theory, development and constitution. Some cornerstones of these issues are freedom of assembly and speech, inclusiveness and equality, membership, consent, voting, right to life and minority rights.
Excessive lobbying can lead to where although people are able to vote for representatives, said representatives are likely to do what is best for them only -- taking money from lobbyists to do things that may or may not be unethical.
This leads to a situation where although you voted, you don't actually get a say in government.
Of course, this only applies to representative democracy.
Edit: see also kemonocode's response to my above comment. That's what I was trying (badly) to say.
Some among the US founding fathers argued that such was inevitable. The only plausible solution, they posited, was to encourage even more lobbying. The only thing that could protect the democracy from special interests was, well, special interests. Competing special interests. The only hope was to set them against each other.
Radical transparency enforced by rules would also come a long way. The electorate would be outraged if they knew about the extent of lobbying to their representatives. It would allow them to put public pressure where it is due.
This would be the most beneficial thing, I think. I do find the idea of competing special interest groups intriguing, but what do you do when one wins?
> One is always winning. Some victories last a long time. Others are shorter.
Excellent point. The optimist and pessimist in me are at odds about this concept, I have a hard time believing that there are enough people who would endure long enough to make a difference.
However, there is a good chance that I am wrong, and I will try to hold on to it.
Edit: I'll have to be going offline now, or I'll never actually sleep. Thank you for the excellent discussion, this is why I'm on HN.
The Federalist Papers are amazing. I could point you to No. 10, but then you would miss out on so much. I think they should be required reading for all USians. There should be a high school class separate from US History that is an entire school year to digest them.
How wonderful it would be to have the luxury to discuss and debate them, along side Marx and others. Pick them apart, mix them together, stir, think, think, think.
> I think [The Federalist Papers] should be required reading for all USians. There should be a high school class separate from US History that is an entire school year to digest them.
I just realized, I have never read them outside of the heavily abbreviated versions covered in US history class. I am reading them now, here's a link to them at the Library of Congress for anyone else who would like to read them as well [0]. I have to add, this is my first experience with a government website that is not like nails on a chalkboard to use. It's simple, efficient, and doesn't require enabling _any_ JS.
> How wonderful it would be to have the luxury to discuss and debate them, along side Marx and others. Pick them apart, mix them together, stir, think, think, think.
I don't have much to say on this, except that I needed to comment agreement on how amazing this would be. I believe in an afterlife, and I hope to get this chance.
Being rich and successful isn't inherently evil, nor anti-democratic. Weak and corrupt governments who bend themselves to please evil people who are also rich, however, are very much a threat to democracy.
I have to ask, how is that destroying democracy? It may or may not be leading the nation down a negative path, something that I suspect we disagree on based on your phrasing.
However, if people vote and their votes actually influence government, as discussed elsewhere in the thread, isn't that democracy following it's path?
This is clearly a signaling move for the wealthiest and most influential business leaders in Hong Kong who might be tempted to subvert Beijing's authority. If they can get the biggest and wealthiest pro-democracy tycoon, they can get anyone.
This is like when Putin arrested Mikhail Khodorkovsky in 2003. The Russian oligarchs fell into line shortly thereafter.
It’s all over for Hong Kong as it has been in the past - a bridge between east and west - a NYC of Asia.
I lived there for 4 years just after the GFC as the transition was slowly continuing to stronger Chinese rule.
My view is nothing new. My gut feeling take away was that China will want to run HK into the ground - as a middle finger to the west - and have the only strong pillars on the region to be Shanghai and Beijing.
Don't sleep on Shenzhen. I think China will look to starve HK by moving as much of the HK financial sector to the bay area.
I can't speak for what will happen wrt the international links that make HK what it is, but if China pulls it off they will have hardware, software and finance all in one place.
I would second this, really interesting episode. He was not afraid of getting arrested he said, I still cannot completely understand a man like him, I wish more people had those guts.
29 comments
[ 4.9 ms ] story [ 68.3 ms ] threadWhat an incredible character. Arresting a man like that has to be one of the most straightforward own-goals that a nation can manage.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Lai
> Democracy (Greek: δημοκρατία, dēmokratiā, from dēmos 'people' and kratos 'rule') is a form of government in which the people have the authority to choose their governing legislation. Who people are and how authority is shared among them are core issues for democratic theory, development and constitution. Some cornerstones of these issues are freedom of assembly and speech, inclusiveness and equality, membership, consent, voting, right to life and minority rights.
Democracy is more than just political lobbying.
This leads to a situation where although you voted, you don't actually get a say in government.
Of course, this only applies to representative democracy.
Edit: see also kemonocode's response to my above comment. That's what I was trying (badly) to say.
One is always winning. Some victories last a long time. Others are shorter. Endure, regroup, retool, resurge.
Excellent point. The optimist and pessimist in me are at odds about this concept, I have a hard time believing that there are enough people who would endure long enough to make a difference.
However, there is a good chance that I am wrong, and I will try to hold on to it.
Edit: I'll have to be going offline now, or I'll never actually sleep. Thank you for the excellent discussion, this is why I'm on HN.
How wonderful it would be to have the luxury to discuss and debate them, along side Marx and others. Pick them apart, mix them together, stir, think, think, think.
I just realized, I have never read them outside of the heavily abbreviated versions covered in US history class. I am reading them now, here's a link to them at the Library of Congress for anyone else who would like to read them as well [0]. I have to add, this is my first experience with a government website that is not like nails on a chalkboard to use. It's simple, efficient, and doesn't require enabling _any_ JS.
> How wonderful it would be to have the luxury to discuss and debate them, along side Marx and others. Pick them apart, mix them together, stir, think, think, think.
I don't have much to say on this, except that I needed to comment agreement on how amazing this would be. I believe in an afterlife, and I hope to get this chance.
[0] https://guides.loc.gov/federalist-papers/full-text
Edit: fix link to be to entire set, not just 1-10. Also, complement LOC website.
Edit 0: I would point out: weak governments bending over backward to rich people requires rich people opposed to good governments.
Edit 1: See dbtc's comment. I removed the word evil from this comment.
The rich who attempt to bend the government are certainly ALSO a threat to the democracy.
However, if people vote and their votes actually influence government, as discussed elsewhere in the thread, isn't that democracy following it's path?
This is like when Putin arrested Mikhail Khodorkovsky in 2003. The Russian oligarchs fell into line shortly thereafter.
I lived there for 4 years just after the GFC as the transition was slowly continuing to stronger Chinese rule.
My view is nothing new. My gut feeling take away was that China will want to run HK into the ground - as a middle finger to the west - and have the only strong pillars on the region to be Shanghai and Beijing.
I can't speak for what will happen wrt the international links that make HK what it is, but if China pulls it off they will have hardware, software and finance all in one place.
Imagine if NYC had a baby with SV...
shudders
https://www.npr.org/2019/07/19/743480237/episode-928-hong-ko...