The Russians have a literal "Manchurian Candidate" in the White House, who is openly murmuring about a 3rd term and displaying openly totalitarian tendencies.
A report released by the Senate Intelligence Committee that just came out today clearly demonstrated that Trump received extensive and unprecedented levels of help from the Russians to get into office.
The Chinese are walking, talking examples of the book 1984 -- but that doesn't mean Russia shouldn't be focused on either.
You should ask your doctor about Trump Derangement Syndrome - you might suffer from it.
You're no different from those who called Obama a Kenyan Muslim who wanted to install a dictatorship in the US using FEMA death squads confiscating guns in the wake of Operation Jade Helm[1].
To use a popular slogan from Hillary Clinton's campaign in 2016:
Countries envy what China has become? Maybe those countries should be reminded they had all this in 1933, with a catchy theme song, and all the spätzle they could eat. They didn’t seem so envious then, spent something like 17 trillion (adjusted) to be less like China.
I've written this multiple times on HN: democracy is a weird and temporary quirk, the natural state of mankind is totalitarism.
For the short period of time (1.5 century) we were in this state where masses were educated well enough to demand political rights for themselves, and elittes didn't have the means to fully control them, so the compromise called "democracy" was made.
Nowadays, with technical advances in many areas, like online banking, smartphones, social media, AI it again becomes possible for elittes to excercise total control over average citizen, therefore mankind will soon revert to it's natural, totalitarian state.
Appealing to mankind's "natural" state is lazy thinking.
Societies are massive, complex, ephemeral things. You may as well appeal that anarchism is mankind's natural state and that soon all governments will cease to exist.
I've got a theory that democracy develops in step with military technology and how "equal" an individual soldier is on the battlefield.
Ancient Greece: Phalanx, requires groups of equal men to stand and fight in formation without breaking. Equipment and training was relatively even. The rich could afford better armor, but that wouldn't turn them into a super soldier.
Medieval: Mounted cavalry or mounted archers. Expensive to maintain a war horse and equipment, years of training required. But a mounted knight was extremely difficult to kill for groups of peasant infantry and the nobility could dominate the battlefield.
Industrial: Once again, large numbers of men wielding cheap firearms with much less training required than horseback combat. America being founded as a democracy probably had a lot to do with recruiting as many militiamen as possible rather than focusing on the interests of a highly trained military elite. One soldier, one vote reflects how much an individual soldier contributes on the battlefield during a time that spanned from musket lines to WW2.
Today: Highly specialized militaries, numbers aren't as important as technology. Based on how democracy has advanced or retreated with the importance of an individual on the battlefield regardless of his wealth or experience, as the scale tips back towards a highly trained military class using expensive weaponry, expect democracy to retreat as the few wield military power over the many.
I had heard that theory before as well. I think possibly from a Yuval Noah Harari book. His overall thesis is that the structure of society follows technology. E.g. hunter gatherer societies tend to have very common religious beliefs which are different than agricultural societies which have other beliefs.
I think its easy to get into this way of thinking. I have gone down that rabbit hole and it may well be that is the historical evidence but at the end of the day humans have agency and collectively countries and nations have agency.
My prediction is that in the near term western countries especially the U.S. evolve (devolve?) into corporate fiefdoms, the pretense of democracy will still be alive but they will just be lobbyists for massive conglomerates like in cyberpunk novels (are we already there?).
I think we will eventually as a whole of humanity go to a better system of governance but none of us will be around for it, first we human beings need to have some global catastrophes to humble us into some collective wisdom.
China isn't totalitarian. I'm a little tired of the impoverished discourse around non-democratic governments. China is an autocratic country, which is to say it's a completely depoliticised society, whereas the defining feature of totalitarian societies is mass mobilisation. China aims to be like Singapore, as Gibson called it "Disneyland with the death penalty", rather than a totalitarian state.
In contrast to historical elite government or totalitarian states the party in China is very much accountable to the population and its well-being. The justification for their continued existence is rising the standards of living and successfully managing society, which renders comparisons to pre-democratic times moot.
> justification for their continued existence is rising the standards of living
It is a "justification" but since failing to do it does not come with any penalties there is no actual accountability. Mao starved 50 million of his comrades by mismanaging society and outright killed a few million more being paranoid -- and they didn't kick him and his cronies to the curb, instead they venerate him like a god and give his friends' grandchildren sinecures.
The fact that China lagging decades behind South Korea or Taiwan for 50 years didn't get the CCP ousted tells you how thin the veneer of "accountability for rising living standards" is, and how much the party actually rules with an iron fist.
This is too myopic and one-sided. The cultural revolution created carnage but China also saw unification, the biggest increase in life expectancy and literacy in modern history, and essentially the development of what is now modern China.
And yes, the CCP is effectively unoustable but the CCP is the government, not just a Western style party, it's a complex governing body. For factions and individuals within the party there absolutely is an incentive to perform, and the party had countless of purges due to unrest.
Don't forget that Xi himself was sent to the countryside under the program of the same name after his father was thrown into prison. The party isn't going to go away, but the authorities in it absolutely are subject to scrutiny. Also Taiwan of course was subject to one party rule until the 90s and not a democratic nation either, and neither was South Korea under Park Chung Hee. Economic development in all three countries did not take place under democratic government.
Mao is a popular leader, his decisions overrides other memebrs of the party, that's the natural prize the population awards to those who won wars for their rights, the same way Washington has that kind of power, only that Mao used that reward without due consideration and in attempt to achieve socialism starved million. It shouldn't be written as if he is a dictator slaughtering people for his own pleasure, because ultimately Mao's problem is his disconnection of reality and lack of understanding of the popular mind which leads to the creation of disastrous policies with aims too high not his disregard of human lives.
Totalitarianism of an individual is one thing, the future will be far more anonymous, you'll hear the name of a state, law, or corporation than an actual, particular individual
" Whatever the price of the Chinese Revolution, it has obviously succeeded not only in producing more efficient and dedicated administration, but also in fostering high morale and community of purpose. The social experiment in China under Chairman Mao's leadership is one of the most important and successful in human history."
This is not at all what the article is about? I do not think the Chinese are as unified as they are made out to be.
I think it's a joke to pretend that China is some ideal to aspire to, but sadly, I think the West will have to use similar tactics to continue to compete.
I believe a big part of China's current strength is by actively exploiting the weaknesses of Capitalism. For a long time, they've exploited the race-to-the-bottom of pricing, and they've gotten rich from it, partially through the sacrifice of their people.
Now that China has that new-found wealth (the country and the people), they are using that wealth to exploit Capitalism in a different way. Since Capitalism is inherently less directed and "top-down", now they're able to manipulate industries by being a big buyer instead. This is inherently part of Capitalism, but since the Chinese government has a more direct control of their economy, they're able to leverage a huge amount of economic power in a more directed fashion.
You want to sell that product here? Well, you're going to have to do it our way. Western governments will have to do the same, putting restrictions on what compromises Western companies are allowed to make, and putting restrictions on Chinese products as well.
I suspect free people (consumers) see creepy stuff like cyber-dystopian Uighur genocide and when given the chance will go full behind whatever opportunity they have to say “screw you China.”
> I suspect free people (consumers) see creepy stuff like cyber-dystopian Uighur genocide
The information asymmetry is massive that I don't think this tracks reality. Many people just tune out news, others never notice "made in China" stickers, and, what I would suspect to be your average consumer, likely just wants the cheapest toaster.
Furthermore, as the Chinese consumer base is more heavily catered to and grows in wealth, companies are going to ditch the current consumer of last resort and further focus their strategies in China.
Idk say what you will about Trump and right populism more broadly, it seems to be almost completely typified by the “why isn’t this made in the USA!?” sentiment. Pretty ubiquitous and as much as I resent protectionism, it’s in full swing. Even the Bernie contingent too.
Exploiting the weakness of capitalism sounds like a joke, because capitalism is the ideal American claims to be persuing but somehow if China wins, it's exploiting the weakness of capitalism, and if America wins it's another victory of our democracy.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. It sounds like you're saying that I'm somehow framing my opinion in a dishonest way, but I'm not sure in what way you're claiming it is dishonest.
Is it because my comment isn't pro-authoritarian/totalitarian?
Do you know about The Great Chinese Famine due to The Great Leap Forward (Backward) under Mao?
Between 18 million and 45 million starved to death due to failings of centrally planned economy. The single biggest man made disaster in the whole of humanity history.
The today success of China can be traced to Deng Xiaoping opening of the country and the free market reforms the so called socialism with Chinese characteristics.
I am quoting David Rockefeller, an important member of the ruling class in America, to give context as to why the west might be becoming more like China.
Bullocks. He was a rich dude who didn't know dick about what was happening in China. At the time the CCP was recovering from the horrible starvation of the Great Leap Forward, and the over-the-top excesses, murders, and repression of the Cultural Revolution.
That quote is a rich dude talking out his ass about shit he didn't know.
> That quote is a rich dude talking out his ass about shit he didn't know.
He knew it very well, but still chose to lie.
I don't think the guys was that much of a complete idiot. This is pretty much like how the current American establishment tries to sell Americans the rationale for its bizarre alliance with the Saudi tinpot kingdom.
And it is also completely no wonder how Saudis started to get into trouble with USA the moment they started to close the door on American money.
170 nations "goverments" signed the UN Agenda 21 pact in 1992
to form a single Global Dictatorship lead by Global Zionist Jews
..
Since 1992 no Western or EU nation has been free
..
None have declared ISRAEL + RUSSIA + CHINA the enemy of humanity and freedom
...
If anything in the last 5-6 years we are finally waking up to the scam of Globalism, Government, corporations and how all parts of our society structures are compromised ..
- Maybe all nations need to go thou Left wing National commie or left wing global commie to finally reject the left , authoritarianism and demand freedom ....
Then again no one in china, HK, Russia has walked into the parliament as a collective group and got rid of the corruption ...
Truth is Taxation is socialism , its wealth redistribution + state force thief, its also often takes 3-5 working class citizens to fund 1 person on welfare, which is often , female, disabled, old, children or non ethnic native person imported into the nation ...
Also list ONE nation outside AMISH and ISLAM that actually holds women accountable...
Some have observed that the average family income of dictatorships tends to plateau at about half that of mature democracies, regardless of the economic system used. Things inside may start to get edgy when they hit that ceiling after everyone being used to growth. (Due to China's sheer size, half is still a big chunk of economic power.)
36 comments
[ 3.3 ms ] story [ 69.6 ms ] threadA report released by the Senate Intelligence Committee that just came out today clearly demonstrated that Trump received extensive and unprecedented levels of help from the Russians to get into office.
The Chinese are walking, talking examples of the book 1984 -- but that doesn't mean Russia shouldn't be focused on either.
You're no different from those who called Obama a Kenyan Muslim who wanted to install a dictatorship in the US using FEMA death squads confiscating guns in the wake of Operation Jade Helm[1].
To use a popular slogan from Hillary Clinton's campaign in 2016:
"The election isn't rigged, you're just losing."
[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jade_Helm_15_conspiracy_theori...
For the short period of time (1.5 century) we were in this state where masses were educated well enough to demand political rights for themselves, and elittes didn't have the means to fully control them, so the compromise called "democracy" was made.
Nowadays, with technical advances in many areas, like online banking, smartphones, social media, AI it again becomes possible for elittes to excercise total control over average citizen, therefore mankind will soon revert to it's natural, totalitarian state.
Societies are massive, complex, ephemeral things. You may as well appeal that anarchism is mankind's natural state and that soon all governments will cease to exist.
Ancient Greece: Phalanx, requires groups of equal men to stand and fight in formation without breaking. Equipment and training was relatively even. The rich could afford better armor, but that wouldn't turn them into a super soldier.
Medieval: Mounted cavalry or mounted archers. Expensive to maintain a war horse and equipment, years of training required. But a mounted knight was extremely difficult to kill for groups of peasant infantry and the nobility could dominate the battlefield.
Industrial: Once again, large numbers of men wielding cheap firearms with much less training required than horseback combat. America being founded as a democracy probably had a lot to do with recruiting as many militiamen as possible rather than focusing on the interests of a highly trained military elite. One soldier, one vote reflects how much an individual soldier contributes on the battlefield during a time that spanned from musket lines to WW2.
Today: Highly specialized militaries, numbers aren't as important as technology. Based on how democracy has advanced or retreated with the importance of an individual on the battlefield regardless of his wealth or experience, as the scale tips back towards a highly trained military class using expensive weaponry, expect democracy to retreat as the few wield military power over the many.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/10/yuval-n...
My prediction is that in the near term western countries especially the U.S. evolve (devolve?) into corporate fiefdoms, the pretense of democracy will still be alive but they will just be lobbyists for massive conglomerates like in cyberpunk novels (are we already there?).
I think we will eventually as a whole of humanity go to a better system of governance but none of us will be around for it, first we human beings need to have some global catastrophes to humble us into some collective wisdom.
In contrast to historical elite government or totalitarian states the party in China is very much accountable to the population and its well-being. The justification for their continued existence is rising the standards of living and successfully managing society, which renders comparisons to pre-democratic times moot.
It is a "justification" but since failing to do it does not come with any penalties there is no actual accountability. Mao starved 50 million of his comrades by mismanaging society and outright killed a few million more being paranoid -- and they didn't kick him and his cronies to the curb, instead they venerate him like a god and give his friends' grandchildren sinecures.
The fact that China lagging decades behind South Korea or Taiwan for 50 years didn't get the CCP ousted tells you how thin the veneer of "accountability for rising living standards" is, and how much the party actually rules with an iron fist.
And yes, the CCP is effectively unoustable but the CCP is the government, not just a Western style party, it's a complex governing body. For factions and individuals within the party there absolutely is an incentive to perform, and the party had countless of purges due to unrest.
Don't forget that Xi himself was sent to the countryside under the program of the same name after his father was thrown into prison. The party isn't going to go away, but the authorities in it absolutely are subject to scrutiny. Also Taiwan of course was subject to one party rule until the 90s and not a democratic nation either, and neither was South Korea under Park Chung Hee. Economic development in all three countries did not take place under democratic government.
So the death-chamber is well-decorated. A step up.
-D. Rockefeller
I think it's a joke to pretend that China is some ideal to aspire to, but sadly, I think the West will have to use similar tactics to continue to compete.
I believe a big part of China's current strength is by actively exploiting the weaknesses of Capitalism. For a long time, they've exploited the race-to-the-bottom of pricing, and they've gotten rich from it, partially through the sacrifice of their people.
Now that China has that new-found wealth (the country and the people), they are using that wealth to exploit Capitalism in a different way. Since Capitalism is inherently less directed and "top-down", now they're able to manipulate industries by being a big buyer instead. This is inherently part of Capitalism, but since the Chinese government has a more direct control of their economy, they're able to leverage a huge amount of economic power in a more directed fashion.
You want to sell that product here? Well, you're going to have to do it our way. Western governments will have to do the same, putting restrictions on what compromises Western companies are allowed to make, and putting restrictions on Chinese products as well.
I suspect free people (consumers) see creepy stuff like cyber-dystopian Uighur genocide and when given the chance will go full behind whatever opportunity they have to say “screw you China.”
The information asymmetry is massive that I don't think this tracks reality. Many people just tune out news, others never notice "made in China" stickers, and, what I would suspect to be your average consumer, likely just wants the cheapest toaster.
Furthermore, as the Chinese consumer base is more heavily catered to and grows in wealth, companies are going to ditch the current consumer of last resort and further focus their strategies in China.
Is it because my comment isn't pro-authoritarian/totalitarian?
Do you know about The Great Chinese Famine due to The Great Leap Forward (Backward) under Mao?
Between 18 million and 45 million starved to death due to failings of centrally planned economy. The single biggest man made disaster in the whole of humanity history.
The today success of China can be traced to Deng Xiaoping opening of the country and the free market reforms the so called socialism with Chinese characteristics.
Bullocks. He was a rich dude who didn't know dick about what was happening in China. At the time the CCP was recovering from the horrible starvation of the Great Leap Forward, and the over-the-top excesses, murders, and repression of the Cultural Revolution.
That quote is a rich dude talking out his ass about shit he didn't know.
> That quote is a rich dude talking out his ass about shit he didn't know.
He knew it very well, but still chose to lie.
I don't think the guys was that much of a complete idiot. This is pretty much like how the current American establishment tries to sell Americans the rationale for its bizarre alliance with the Saudi tinpot kingdom.
And it is also completely no wonder how Saudis started to get into trouble with USA the moment they started to close the door on American money.
Source of the quote in 1973. The west knew far less about China in 1973 when it was opening up after decades of isolation than it does today.
Welcome to the last 5-25-55-75 years
170 nations "goverments" signed the UN Agenda 21 pact in 1992 to form a single Global Dictatorship lead by Global Zionist Jews
..
Since 1992 no Western or EU nation has been free
..
None have declared ISRAEL + RUSSIA + CHINA the enemy of humanity and freedom ... If anything in the last 5-6 years we are finally waking up to the scam of Globalism, Government, corporations and how all parts of our society structures are compromised ..
- Maybe all nations need to go thou Left wing National commie or left wing global commie to finally reject the left , authoritarianism and demand freedom ....
Then again no one in china, HK, Russia has walked into the parliament as a collective group and got rid of the corruption ...
Truth is Taxation is socialism , its wealth redistribution + state force thief, its also often takes 3-5 working class citizens to fund 1 person on welfare, which is often , female, disabled, old, children or non ethnic native person imported into the nation ...
Also list ONE nation outside AMISH and ISLAM that actually holds women accountable...