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Ask HN: How hard is creating an app to replace Uber and Lyft?

7 points by spodek ↗ HN
With Uber and Lyft threatening to shut down over California's ruling to classify drivers as employees, how hard would it be to replace the services? Could drivers and supporters create an alternative app to allow them to serve riders without going through the services? Does California have enough entrepreneurs and programmers whom the shutdown would inconvenience enough to make solving it worth their while?

28 comments

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samfisher83
You would need to get drivers, and you would have to follow the law. That would be the hard part.
tgflynn
What if it were done in a different way though so that the app is really just an app that doesn't attempt to exert any control over the drivers ? In that case wouldn't the drivers really be independent contractors and not employees ?

I always thought that instead of trying to replace taxis someone should have created an app/platform to make them as easy to use as Uber/Lyft.

dvlat
I have seen somewhat successful attempts (in international markets) that used a similar approach. There are still some hard questions: how do you make sure that your clients receive consistent levels of service, what is the plan if a driver breaks the law (if/when something _really_ bad happens, clients typically don't like position "it's not us, we are just the app - blame the driver")
tgflynn
The plan is that you don't get involved in any of that. All you do is provide a platform that allows customers and drivers to connect in an efficient way. If clients don't aren't willing to accept that then I guess they don't need rides.
sikan
And you believe Uber/Lyft haven't thought about this?
tgflynn
I think they did it wrong by trying to maintain too much control over the drivers. Either that or people and/or their political representatives just aren't that interested in ride-sharing. But I doubt that, because as someone who is currently unable to drive, I know what a valuable lifeline these services can be. Fortunately I don't live in California.

EDIT: Also there's a problem with the way resources get allocated. I think that platforms of this type provide a valuable service, but not necessarily one that should be considered the basis for a billion dollar business. The majority of the revenue should be going to the drivers. But it's hard to get capital for something that has no chance of creating a few more billionaires.

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Tagbert
I suspect that a large part of the current ridership of these services would be less than thrilled about grabbing a ride from a random stranger without the level of oversight provided by Uber/Lift in terms of payments, safety, and service levels.
tgflynn
My objection to your argument is that taxis and other car services existed long before Uber and Lyft, usually with some level of safety supposedly being provided by government licensing requirements for drivers.

The big problem with taxis is that they're inconvenient to use. You either have to take a chance at hailing one or call a switchboard, having no idea in advance of how long it will take to get picked up.

Uber/Lyft's platform largely solved the inconvenience problem, they could have offered it as a service to existing taxi companies/drivers without getting involved in all the regulatory issues.

lotsofpulp
>My objection to your argument is that taxis and other car services existed long before Uber and Lyft, usually with some level of safety supposedly being provided by government licensing requirements for drivers.

And people preferred Uber/Lyft’s oversight versus the taxi services that existed before.

PascLeRasc
I don't think "fuck the customer" is a useful step of brainstorming market fit.
patbarr
I agree, a general platform that rather than try to manage, just connect.
spodek
In the short-term, while Uber and Lyft leave the market, any shared-ride service may be better than no shared-ride service, so a replacement may have a low bar for "good enough."

Then it can improve over time.

Of course, where possible, more public transportation, biking, and reducing or replacing travel works too.

spodek
The drivers exist. Uber and Lyft are abandoning them, so it seems they have time and incentive to replace the missing service.
xist
I mean, the real question would be - what would be the differences you'd want to see between unnamed new app and the existing ones?

That would dictate how hard it is. Anyone can make an app, Market penetration/usage is where the real questions await.

Put another way, what compelling reason could be offered that a.) entices drivers b.) entices endusers c.) technically feasible d.) sustainable

spodek
> what compelling reason could be offered that a.) entices drivers b.) entices endusers c.) technically feasible d.) sustainable

The big compelling reason seems Uber and Lyft suspending operations while drivers are hurting from a lockdown.

The enticements to drivers and users are the enticements to use Uber and Lyft, now not met.

A further enticement to drivers is to signal to Uber and Lyft that if they try to play hardball too much, they can be replaced. Even starting developing the app and service would create incentives for Uber and Lyft to accept that they have less negotiating power than they think.

I don't pretend to have all the answers, it just seems like an opportunity for drivers and riders to decrease the share going to Uber and Lyft.

copp
The biggest challenge is obeying the law and might not be the app.

Might be another way to circumvent this would be to masquerade as a delivery service with a free lift.

Not sure if the law covers that part as well.

jojo2000
Having worked for a thriving competitor of those brands, I can tell you that the app was not the major factor of success for the company. Our infra, at the time, was retarded, the code quality was mediocre, and we witnessed major downtimes, fun times. You have to come at the right time (for vc money), organize operations efficiently (recruit drivers + passengers) and make some lobbying to not be banned outright, while managing angriness from drivers, and unhappy clients. This is the hard part. The tech is basic !
spodek
What you wrote is why I asked not only about programmers but also entrepreneurs -- people to handle relationships and beyond the tech.

Speaking about the right time, Uber and Lyft proposing to leave the market seems like a great time to practice, especially while drivers are hurting from a lockdown.

ystad
I wonder if the going to a cooperative model is the way to go. It might resemble the taxi companies in some ways
spodek
I was thinking like a food co-op instead of a regular store or credit union instead of a bank.
2squirrels
Probably not too difficult to make the app itself. To build the network of drivers to make a consistent enough service to attract users(and then more drivers to expand further) is the tricky part. + insurance and regulation, when they started they didn’t have to deal with it as much until they did, and by then they had resources to do so.
davidhbolton
I worked for a British taxi company that was developing that kind of app, I developed it. One problem for the company was that their drivers worked for Uber at the same time as them. They were freelancers, not employed by either firm. They had two phones one for receiving jobs from the taxi firm and the Uber one. We had to trust that they weren't doing both at the same time. I think they used Uber to give them work during periods when it was quiet for my firm.

Does this double working happen in the USA?

kingkongjaffa
Everytime I have been in the US, the drivers have been working for both Uber and Lyft at the same time.
Jugurtha
There are a bunch of them, six or more, where I live. YCombinator even backed one of them recently[0], but they were already +200 employees and dominated the market.

I always thought they would sell to Uber. Recently, Careem entered the Algerian market after Uber bought Careem. I always thought the company would sell to Uber/Careem, but they haven't yet. They issued a statement April 1st that they sold to Uber/Careem if I recall correctly.

[0]: https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/13642

gitgud
> "Does California have enough entrepreneurs and programmers whom the shutdown would inconvenience enough to make solving it worth their while?"

Reminds me of a [1] quote from a professor:

"if it takes 6 men 7 days to build a wall. How long will it take 10,000 men to build the same wall? .... the answer is less than 1 second"

[1] https://youtu.be/2qLuerYx2IA

Trias11
Yes, good question.

We need anonymous, decentralized cryptocoin-like peer-to-peer service system with crowdsourced rating for every vertical that would allow such system to evolve and prosper outside of this political nonsense.

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