The ability to remove unused code at compile time means you have access to a very large, full-featured library, but only have to include the parts you need. You can do something similar with a custom JQuery or YUI build, but not nearly to the same level, and with the same granularity that the closure compiler does automatically.
Unfortunately, to take full advantage of the compiler you must run with advanced optimizations turned on, which in turn means that your code has to be structured for use with the compiler. You're not going to take an existing codebase and just throw it into the compiler with advanced optimizations and have it work out for you.
But if you start a project with the closure library and the closure compiler, you can get some pretty amazing optimizations. We were seeing relatively full-featured apps at compiled, uncompressed sizes of under 10k. Full sites well under 100k with a lot of javascript is completely doable.
Couple that with the dynamically-loading module system and you've got a crazy fast front end.
To top it all off, the compiler respects and can warn about type mismatching if you annotate your code. It's a great way to both document and check your codebase.
The closure library and closure compiler are warty enough that I don't think they'll see widespread adoption the way that JQuery has, but the closure tools, or something like them, is definitely the way forward.
Twitter does not, I don't know about flow. Most people are using one of the non-closure libraries that only work with closure's "simple" optimizations, and running one of those through the closure compiler on "simple" doesn't get you much that one of the other minifiers could do, and the other minifiers are easier to use.
I'd like to see a library that is more approachable and internally consistent than the Closure Library, I think something like that coupled with plovr, (a build tool that wraps some of the craziness of the closure compiler in a much nicer package) would be a killer next-gen js framework.
I think that's really where we're headed, all this complaining about whether you should use a big library or build a big custom library is really just a symptom of the tools being sort of crap.
Tom indirectly calls Thomas Fuchs (author of Scriptaculous, Zepto, Emile, core committer to Prototype.js, etc.) disingenuous because...
"Of course Mr. Fuchs is able to tell you which JavaScript library will precisely match your requirements -- his job is writing JavaScript libraries!" [Emphasis, and presumed outrage, his.]
Come now. That's simply false, and if you think about it, silly. "He writes open source frameworks for free so he's biased against open source frameworks"? Really? Thomas has never sold a JavaScript framework or written one for hire, and his libraries are MIT-licensed. It's not his "job". Furthermore, Prototype.js and Scriptaculous are not micro-frameworks. So Thomas Fuchs is arguing against major examples of his own work. Yup, must be some kind of evil hidden agenda.
I called Tom out about this misrepresentation on Twitter and he probably changed it by now, but I for one think it's important to know about the history of such things.
Other nitpicks:
Mr. Fuchs has apparently never heard of dependency hell. Very logical argument, that. Way to slyly insinuate he's a bad and inexperienced programmer, without actually introducing any actual facts.
Dustin Diaz has done a great job of putting together many of these micro-frameworks with Ender.js, but as a curator, he has to rely on the original author if he wants to make a change.
Really? How is that a counter-argument?
I'd be very surprised if someone has read Thomas' little essay on micro-frameworks and genuinely come away with the idea that what he really supports is taking a bunch of other people's OSS projects and mushing them together with an integration layer.
The whole point about micro-frameworks is you don't have to make them "go together". You wield them individually like scalpels instead of spinning them en masse like Edward Scissorhands.
There are a LOT of problems with an undertaking like Ender.js, but that's not the fault of micro-frameworks "not being made to work together." It's the fault of doing something that, from the outset, is fairly expected to be more trouble than it's worth - however noble it may be.
One might argue that an integration layer that hooks up a bunch of other micro-frameworks is no better than -- and in a lot of ways, worse, and more complex, and less reliable -- than a monolithic library. So I call "red herring" on the Ender.js argument. It doesn't really support Tom's attack on Thomas' article against monolithic frameworks, because it is one... just made from parts, like Frankenstein.
I could go on, but I'm even boring myself at this point.
What I'd like to know is: Why is the suggestion "You don't need all that code all the time" considered so radical & threatening?
--
And yup, full disclosure: I married Thomas Fuchs, but I used Prototype & Scriptaculous for well over a year before I ever met him.
I have tremendous respect for both you and Thomas and I'm sorry if the anything in my post came off as disrespectful. My point in saying that his "job" was writing JavaScript frameworks (which I have since updated to better characterize his relationship to them) was not that there was anything untoward going on. My point is simply that he is comfortable making the tweaks and modifications necessary to wield the power of multiple disparate libraries. Quite simply, he is a JavaScript hacker of the first order and is more comfortable taking on that job himself than at least 80% of JavaScript developers out there.
I felt like I had to write this post when I read this:
A whopping 100% of sites or apps using these libraries don’t use all the features they provide.
I have been talking to many, many developers who started with a "simple" app that became very popular and soon exceeded its original scope. To deal with this increase in complexity, they start building many of the features not available in microframeworks, but that come standard with so-called "monolithic" frameworks. My point is that many people need that level of sophistication, but there is a widespread misconception that, for whatever reason, picking a "monolithic" tool is never the right choice.
The suggestion that "You don't need all that code all the time" is not the problem. The insinuation in the JS community seems to be "You never need all that code," which I believe to be false.
Again, no outrage on my part. I just think that we need to address the reality of how modern web apps are built.
Hi Tom, it's hard to believe your snarky-sounding italics were intended innocently when you also had such lines as "Mr. Fuchs has apparently never heard of dependency hell." That is clearly meant as a personal jab, one way or another.
That said, it's true what you wrote, that lots of apps grow bigger and need more functionality as they grow. But "need more" is not the same as "use 100% of a library," so that doesn't really refute Thomas' original argument.
You're reacting negatively to insinuations and attitudes that, as far as I can tell, don't exist on a broad scale at all. Most people you meet in the JS community use frameworks and are clearly not anti-framework. It seems to me (based on the tweets from you and @wycats) that you think this whole thing is about Sproutcore. It's not.
Thomas wasn't "insinuating" anything about Sproutcore any more than he was "insinuating" anything about Prototype.js, another monolithic framework.
Mostly agreed, and well articulated. Though, the point I believe that Tom was trying to make about Diaz having to ask Thomas to change things was more valid with the links that were likely stripped from your comment:
While you already argue against something like ender.js being valid, Tom's argument, which preceded your comment (and which seemed confirmed by Thomas' post, imo), was that including emile in Ender.js has actually been a pain because he couldn't get Thomas to answer him, let alone change something for him. I believe the irony that was being pointed out was that Thomas then gave ender a shout-out after ignoring it (from an outside and likely wrong perspective).
I say all of this in more of a objective bystander, rather than someone who wants to interject his own opinion on the actual topic. I don't need that kind of stress.
Full disclosure: I found myself quite attracted to Thomas the few times I met him. I think it's the accent.
The point is that Emile is 50 lines of code and can be wrapped up for any purpose in about 2 minutes (export to some object).
Dustin wanted a different API to call upon, so he had to change some stuff, again relatively easy, because it basically fits on a screen in a text editor.
Let's not forget, all of this is open source, and it's meant for adaptation, forking and to be built upon. (Note that Emile was very much a proof-of-concept, with no emphasis on beatuiful, reusable code; it was written as a teaching tool for a talk on CSS animation I gave two years ago at Fronteers.)
I agree, but I think the point of Tom originally linking it was to show that Dustin had integrated a micro-framework (from you), and couldn't get a response from you (even to say the stuff you mention above) and eventually closed the ticket.
It's not my own commentary, though. I was just clarifying to Amy why the argument that seemed entirely unrelated was at least tangentially related. Personally, I would have just modified it and went on my way :D
Actually Dustin's pull request is a bad example entirely. He wanted to change the whole API of emile. He liked the functionality but it didn't work for how he wanted to integrate it into ender. If an API doesn't work for you, you're kind of screwed, whatever library you're using. You either hack it yourself or you ask the maintainer. If some API of SproutCore wasn't to your liking, then what?
Dustin could've written an adapter around emile to expose the api he wanted to for ender. But that would defeat the purpose of ender which is to cleanly integrate several great micro frameworks. He didn't have to wait for Thomas. He wanted to explicitly. It was a goal of his to keep the dependencies pure.
Dependency hell is a problem with integrating several different frameworks. But I'm not sure this is the best illustration of that.
Slexy, I didn't know about this. Because 5 days ago, I was too sick to do anything but lie on the sofa and moan, and Thomas was taking care of me while holding down the business all by himself. It's unfortunate that Dustin assumed that not hearing from Thomas in just a few days meant that Thomas was angry, ignoring him, or whatever.
But nevertheless, Emile's not only open source, it's MIT-licensed. Dustin can do whatever he wants with it, any time!
Unrelated to the OP, but related to this: I get that it's real life, and people forget that all the time on the internet. You should start feeling better soon. Forealz. I demand it. CFS sounds terrible and we're all rooting for you to figure out a real solution despite shitty doctor luck. Many <3z.
I don't know enough to contribute to this debate, but I found the tone of your comment more distracting than that of the article. (I come from the 'less code is better' camp in lisp http://github.com/akkartik/wart, so I have no axe to grind.)
It's very modular and consistent. It's easy to pick and choose just what you want to include. You can do it by hand or use the builders on the MooTools site that let you roll custom distributions of the library.
It's like having a micro- and full-stack library in one package.
How much of Flow’s nearly 900k of (minified!) JavaScript
do you think is the application developers filling in
the deficiencies in Backbone?
I'm trying really hard to resist saying something overwhelmingly snarky about SproutCore apologists, but this article is trying to be a slap in the face of Backbone.js, and libraries like it ... so if you want to have that discussion -- bring it. You think 843K of JavaScript is too large for a truly comprehensive and gorgeous app like Flow? The SproutCore hello world app for a broken-looking table view weighs 717K, when measured in the same way.
But there's a bigger question here, when picking on a library that's only been around for 6 months: Has anything on the scale and professionalism of Flow ever been accomplished by a SproutCore app, in SproutCore's 4 years of existence?
I started out working on a fairly complex dynamic form builder for the research group I work for. They needed a way to build up forms to administer to possible research subjects. The rest of the app was using pieces from jquery-ui so I stuck with that and added backbone.js to handle more of the complex interactive tasks. All of it was written in coffee-script.
Early on this approach worked fine and for simple CRUD stuff it's not too bad but as the researchers wanted more and more options it got difficult to sync everything; dom interactions, model data and server data. I started to investigate SproutCore and thought "This object model with bindings is just what I need!"
So, I'd really like to disagree with your comment, but I can't. The reason is because I can't integrate SproutCore with anything else that's been written for our app. I can't even get access to some of SproutCore's pieces to try and integrate it. The entire view part of our app would have to be re-written using SproutCore to use the features and that isn't viable right now.
As it stands, I'd really like to use SproutCore. There are some great ideas there and I think that some of my projects would really benefit from their projects. But right now, backbone.js + jquery-ui has hit the sweet spot of easy to get up and running and looks good. The researchers are really happy with what I've got done and I'm able to move on to other problems.
I believe the solution to this problem isn't tiny frameworks, it's better tools and/or languages.
Closure Compiler and GWT do a great job of stripping dead code. Cappuccino has a tool I wrote that attempts to analyze your application and remove unused files from the final bundle of code. It could do a lot better though.
One thing these tools have in common is static typing vastly improves their ability to remove unused code. Perhaps JavaScript and other very dynamic languages aren't ideal for large web applications built with large frameworks.
I like the idea of optional static typing. For example, a language in which you can rapidly prototype without paying close attention to strict type rules, but later you can "solidify" your code by enabling static typing. Is anyone aware of a language like that?
Edit: now that I think about it, that's basically what Closure Compiler is
Left a comment there, might as well leave it here too.
An interesting debate (minus the personal attack stuff). But I think the problem is that both sides are trying to warp and narrow the playing field to suit themselves. The truth is there are plenty of projects that will never need all the machinery of SproutCore. And there are plenty of projects that start out too small and then struggle to grow more complex. Choosing your tools is hard. It should be hard and it should be taken seriously. Neither side should be trying to convince people that it’s an easy decision.
- "This is why you should always just start with SproutCore".
- "This is why you should just start small and integrate micro-frameworks as needed".
Both bogus arguments really.
I’m also quite sure that neither side really wants to disparage the other side. They just want to make sure their own side isn’t being disparaged or misrepresented. This is what most internet arguments are made of unfortunately :)
What would be more awesome IMO is if we started talking about when it’s a good idea to take either approach. Let’s hear some use cases. And let’s stop using Twitter as an example. There is only 1 Twitter and their requirements are not going to be representative of the web dev community at large.
As co-creator of the NOLOH Framework (http://www.noloh.com) it's crazy for me to constantly read these posts, clearly we don't do a good enough marketing job. One of the benefits of NOLOH is it's lightweight and on-demand nature, that everyone in this thread, and in the blog post seems to be requesting, but without actually identifying it.
In the case of NOLOH, lightweight and on-demand means that the server sends the client only the necessary highly optimized client-side code for their application specific to the user's device at that current point in time, resulting in faster initial and continued loads. Similarly, as the user continues to use the application, NOLOH continues to send only the necessary and optimized code. This eliminates the fat-client problem, as the user only has what they absolutely need, specific to them. Similarly, in the case of search engine robots, NOLOH sends standards compliant semantically rich content, without the other baggage.
This is accomplished by implementing different renderers for each target device, so rather than use a general client-side library that loads everything it could possibly need for all browsers and situations, NOLOH has specific variations for each browser, version, and device. The ever growing number of browsers and devices demands this.
In "Lightweight, On-demand, and Beyond" in this past November's issue of php|architect, http://www.phparch.com/magazine/2010-2/november/ (sorry for the pay-wall, we'll repost it this month as the exclusivity period expires), we go in-depth explaining the next version of our lightweight and on-demand functionality, where we make it easier for us to maintain an ever growing number of target devices, while sending even better code to the client, without any drawbacks on either the client, or the server.
It's been very interesting reading all the posts regarding event-driven programming, fat-clients, and unnecessary bloat. I remember initially thinking about these issues in 2005 when Philip Ross and I first created NOLOH, we were young and naive at the time and like all good solutions, didn't have the status quo entrenched in our thinking. So when I read these posts and they have the same gist as our initial white-papers it saddens me that we haven't made as much progress as I thought we would've, it also makes me feel old.
26 comments
[ 3.5 ms ] story [ 77.5 ms ] threadThe ability to remove unused code at compile time means you have access to a very large, full-featured library, but only have to include the parts you need. You can do something similar with a custom JQuery or YUI build, but not nearly to the same level, and with the same granularity that the closure compiler does automatically.
Unfortunately, to take full advantage of the compiler you must run with advanced optimizations turned on, which in turn means that your code has to be structured for use with the compiler. You're not going to take an existing codebase and just throw it into the compiler with advanced optimizations and have it work out for you.
But if you start a project with the closure library and the closure compiler, you can get some pretty amazing optimizations. We were seeing relatively full-featured apps at compiled, uncompressed sizes of under 10k. Full sites well under 100k with a lot of javascript is completely doable.
Couple that with the dynamically-loading module system and you've got a crazy fast front end.
To top it all off, the compiler respects and can warn about type mismatching if you annotate your code. It's a great way to both document and check your codebase.
The closure library and closure compiler are warty enough that I don't think they'll see widespread adoption the way that JQuery has, but the closure tools, or something like them, is definitely the way forward.
I'd like to see a library that is more approachable and internally consistent than the Closure Library, I think something like that coupled with plovr, (a build tool that wraps some of the craziness of the closure compiler in a much nicer package) would be a killer next-gen js framework.
I think that's really where we're headed, all this complaining about whether you should use a big library or build a big custom library is really just a symptom of the tools being sort of crap.
"Of course Mr. Fuchs is able to tell you which JavaScript library will precisely match your requirements -- his job is writing JavaScript libraries!" [Emphasis, and presumed outrage, his.]
Come now. That's simply false, and if you think about it, silly. "He writes open source frameworks for free so he's biased against open source frameworks"? Really? Thomas has never sold a JavaScript framework or written one for hire, and his libraries are MIT-licensed. It's not his "job". Furthermore, Prototype.js and Scriptaculous are not micro-frameworks. So Thomas Fuchs is arguing against major examples of his own work. Yup, must be some kind of evil hidden agenda.
I called Tom out about this misrepresentation on Twitter and he probably changed it by now, but I for one think it's important to know about the history of such things.
Other nitpicks:
Mr. Fuchs has apparently never heard of dependency hell. Very logical argument, that. Way to slyly insinuate he's a bad and inexperienced programmer, without actually introducing any actual facts.
Dustin Diaz has done a great job of putting together many of these micro-frameworks with Ender.js, but as a curator, he has to rely on the original author if he wants to make a change.
Really? How is that a counter-argument?
I'd be very surprised if someone has read Thomas' little essay on micro-frameworks and genuinely come away with the idea that what he really supports is taking a bunch of other people's OSS projects and mushing them together with an integration layer.
The whole point about micro-frameworks is you don't have to make them "go together". You wield them individually like scalpels instead of spinning them en masse like Edward Scissorhands.
There are a LOT of problems with an undertaking like Ender.js, but that's not the fault of micro-frameworks "not being made to work together." It's the fault of doing something that, from the outset, is fairly expected to be more trouble than it's worth - however noble it may be.
One might argue that an integration layer that hooks up a bunch of other micro-frameworks is no better than -- and in a lot of ways, worse, and more complex, and less reliable -- than a monolithic library. So I call "red herring" on the Ender.js argument. It doesn't really support Tom's attack on Thomas' article against monolithic frameworks, because it is one... just made from parts, like Frankenstein.
I could go on, but I'm even boring myself at this point.
What I'd like to know is: Why is the suggestion "You don't need all that code all the time" considered so radical & threatening?
--
And yup, full disclosure: I married Thomas Fuchs, but I used Prototype & Scriptaculous for well over a year before I ever met him.
I have tremendous respect for both you and Thomas and I'm sorry if the anything in my post came off as disrespectful. My point in saying that his "job" was writing JavaScript frameworks (which I have since updated to better characterize his relationship to them) was not that there was anything untoward going on. My point is simply that he is comfortable making the tweaks and modifications necessary to wield the power of multiple disparate libraries. Quite simply, he is a JavaScript hacker of the first order and is more comfortable taking on that job himself than at least 80% of JavaScript developers out there.
I felt like I had to write this post when I read this:
A whopping 100% of sites or apps using these libraries don’t use all the features they provide.
I have been talking to many, many developers who started with a "simple" app that became very popular and soon exceeded its original scope. To deal with this increase in complexity, they start building many of the features not available in microframeworks, but that come standard with so-called "monolithic" frameworks. My point is that many people need that level of sophistication, but there is a widespread misconception that, for whatever reason, picking a "monolithic" tool is never the right choice.
The suggestion that "You don't need all that code all the time" is not the problem. The insinuation in the JS community seems to be "You never need all that code," which I believe to be false.
Again, no outrage on my part. I just think that we need to address the reality of how modern web apps are built.
That said, it's true what you wrote, that lots of apps grow bigger and need more functionality as they grow. But "need more" is not the same as "use 100% of a library," so that doesn't really refute Thomas' original argument.
You're reacting negatively to insinuations and attitudes that, as far as I can tell, don't exist on a broad scale at all. Most people you meet in the JS community use frameworks and are clearly not anti-framework. It seems to me (based on the tweets from you and @wycats) that you think this whole thing is about Sproutcore. It's not.
Thomas wasn't "insinuating" anything about Sproutcore any more than he was "insinuating" anything about Prototype.js, another monolithic framework.
https://github.com/madrobby/emile/pull/7
While you already argue against something like ender.js being valid, Tom's argument, which preceded your comment (and which seemed confirmed by Thomas' post, imo), was that including emile in Ender.js has actually been a pain because he couldn't get Thomas to answer him, let alone change something for him. I believe the irony that was being pointed out was that Thomas then gave ender a shout-out after ignoring it (from an outside and likely wrong perspective).
I say all of this in more of a objective bystander, rather than someone who wants to interject his own opinion on the actual topic. I don't need that kind of stress.
Full disclosure: I found myself quite attracted to Thomas the few times I met him. I think it's the accent.
Dustin wanted a different API to call upon, so he had to change some stuff, again relatively easy, because it basically fits on a screen in a text editor.
Let's not forget, all of this is open source, and it's meant for adaptation, forking and to be built upon. (Note that Emile was very much a proof-of-concept, with no emphasis on beatuiful, reusable code; it was written as a teaching tool for a talk on CSS animation I gave two years ago at Fronteers.)
It's not my own commentary, though. I was just clarifying to Amy why the argument that seemed entirely unrelated was at least tangentially related. Personally, I would have just modified it and went on my way :D
Dustin could've written an adapter around emile to expose the api he wanted to for ender. But that would defeat the purpose of ender which is to cleanly integrate several great micro frameworks. He didn't have to wait for Thomas. He wanted to explicitly. It was a goal of his to keep the dependencies pure.
Dependency hell is a problem with integrating several different frameworks. But I'm not sure this is the best illustration of that.
But nevertheless, Emile's not only open source, it's MIT-licensed. Dustin can do whatever he wants with it, any time!
It's very modular and consistent. It's easy to pick and choose just what you want to include. You can do it by hand or use the builders on the MooTools site that let you roll custom distributions of the library.
It's like having a micro- and full-stack library in one package.
But there's a bigger question here, when picking on a library that's only been around for 6 months: Has anything on the scale and professionalism of Flow ever been accomplished by a SproutCore app, in SproutCore's 4 years of existence?
I think that the proof is in the pudding:
http://www.sproutcore.com/showcase/ (2 of the 4 belong to the SC team)
http://documentcloud.github.com/backbone/#examples
'nuff said.
Early on this approach worked fine and for simple CRUD stuff it's not too bad but as the researchers wanted more and more options it got difficult to sync everything; dom interactions, model data and server data. I started to investigate SproutCore and thought "This object model with bindings is just what I need!"
So, I'd really like to disagree with your comment, but I can't. The reason is because I can't integrate SproutCore with anything else that's been written for our app. I can't even get access to some of SproutCore's pieces to try and integrate it. The entire view part of our app would have to be re-written using SproutCore to use the features and that isn't viable right now.
As it stands, I'd really like to use SproutCore. There are some great ideas there and I think that some of my projects would really benefit from their projects. But right now, backbone.js + jquery-ui has hit the sweet spot of easy to get up and running and looks good. The researchers are really happy with what I've got done and I'm able to move on to other problems.
Closure Compiler and GWT do a great job of stripping dead code. Cappuccino has a tool I wrote that attempts to analyze your application and remove unused files from the final bundle of code. It could do a lot better though.
One thing these tools have in common is static typing vastly improves their ability to remove unused code. Perhaps JavaScript and other very dynamic languages aren't ideal for large web applications built with large frameworks.
I like the idea of optional static typing. For example, a language in which you can rapidly prototype without paying close attention to strict type rules, but later you can "solidify" your code by enabling static typing. Is anyone aware of a language like that?
Edit: now that I think about it, that's basically what Closure Compiler is
An interesting debate (minus the personal attack stuff). But I think the problem is that both sides are trying to warp and narrow the playing field to suit themselves. The truth is there are plenty of projects that will never need all the machinery of SproutCore. And there are plenty of projects that start out too small and then struggle to grow more complex. Choosing your tools is hard. It should be hard and it should be taken seriously. Neither side should be trying to convince people that it’s an easy decision.
- "This is why you should always just start with SproutCore". - "This is why you should just start small and integrate micro-frameworks as needed".
Both bogus arguments really.
I’m also quite sure that neither side really wants to disparage the other side. They just want to make sure their own side isn’t being disparaged or misrepresented. This is what most internet arguments are made of unfortunately :)
What would be more awesome IMO is if we started talking about when it’s a good idea to take either approach. Let’s hear some use cases. And let’s stop using Twitter as an example. There is only 1 Twitter and their requirements are not going to be representative of the web dev community at large.
In the case of NOLOH, lightweight and on-demand means that the server sends the client only the necessary highly optimized client-side code for their application specific to the user's device at that current point in time, resulting in faster initial and continued loads. Similarly, as the user continues to use the application, NOLOH continues to send only the necessary and optimized code. This eliminates the fat-client problem, as the user only has what they absolutely need, specific to them. Similarly, in the case of search engine robots, NOLOH sends standards compliant semantically rich content, without the other baggage.
This is accomplished by implementing different renderers for each target device, so rather than use a general client-side library that loads everything it could possibly need for all browsers and situations, NOLOH has specific variations for each browser, version, and device. The ever growing number of browsers and devices demands this.
In "Lightweight, On-demand, and Beyond" in this past November's issue of php|architect, http://www.phparch.com/magazine/2010-2/november/ (sorry for the pay-wall, we'll repost it this month as the exclusivity period expires), we go in-depth explaining the next version of our lightweight and on-demand functionality, where we make it easier for us to maintain an ever growing number of target devices, while sending even better code to the client, without any drawbacks on either the client, or the server.
It's been very interesting reading all the posts regarding event-driven programming, fat-clients, and unnecessary bloat. I remember initially thinking about these issues in 2005 when Philip Ross and I first created NOLOH, we were young and naive at the time and like all good solutions, didn't have the status quo entrenched in our thinking. So when I read these posts and they have the same gist as our initial white-papers it saddens me that we haven't made as much progress as I thought we would've, it also makes me feel old.