College. The point isn't so much to pigeonhole oneself into a safe job at a big company but to take some liberal-arts courses to better oneself and to avoid becoming a one-dimensional human being.
Okay, seriously, how is this advice not a gigantic blatant lie? Read science fiction written by knowledgeable people who put their knowledge in the story, go to science fiction conventions, attend random lectures in your city, read history books you're actually interested in, read basic textbooks in a variety of fields, go to kink events and learn about anything that interests you, visit a foreign country and stay there long enough to absorb a culture, make strange friends, not to mention DOING A STARTUP, and at the end you will be a hell of a lot more well-rounded than somebody who paid $80,000 to take a course requiring them to read Moby Dick.
Trudging off dully into college like the est of the drones is an efficient way of becoming multidimensional? A more efficient way than DOING A STARTUP? GIVE me a goddamned BREAK! Isn't this one of those things that is just blatantly false but which everyone repeats anyway? And even if it were true, there'd be hella more efficient ways to round yourself using $80,000.
While doing all of the things you listed may indeed result in a better education than going to college, most people are too lazy or inexperienced to come up and follow through with such a self-education program.
I have met people who frown upon college-level liberal-arts education, and now do my best to avoid them. It isn't so much that I agreed with everything that was taught in college (I was one of those students who would often end up arguing with the professor), it's just that such willful ignorance on the part of these people is a huge warning sign in my book.
I spent far less than $80k to get my degree from a big state school in the US, so this doesn't necessarily apply to the OP's situation if indeed that's the minimum they'd end up spending in the UK.
But I have to disagree with you that it's a "gigantic blatant lie." Perhaps it's overly optimistic regarding the quality of education one would get for $80k, but it's not a lie. Sure, you can get very well-rounded by reading books on your own but there's a tremendous amount of value to be gotten from going to college too, maybe even a different kind of value, or for a different person.
I took a fair amount of higher level math in college and I really don't think I would have had the same experience studying that stuff on my own. I'm sure there are people who can read abstract algebra, analysis, and geometry textbooks on their own and get 100% of the understanding a good professor would try to impart during lectures, but I bet they are rare. In 16-18-yr olds, probably quite rare.
Regarding liberal arts courses, I had the opportunity to study Japanese literature and film with some really great professors, and that's something I could have obviously done on my own (watch movies, read books, write critical papers and mull over them by myself). But it's not the same. Maybe not better, maybe not worse, but I disagree with your assumption that self-study is a drop in replacement for college.
"Doing a startup" probably offers a great deal of opportunities for personal growth and well-roundedness, but I really don't think it's going to be the same as studying things like upper division math, compilers, the French new wave in depth at a decent university class.
I completely agree that college is totally over-priced. At $80k, my arguments start to look a little flimsy. But as a blanket statement, I have to disagree with you that the idea that "college offers value to someone wanting to be well-rounded" is a blatant lie. Also, your tone was a bit shrill.
First, the author is 16 years old. It matters. Yes, college is, all things being equal, a great venue to encounter a lot of opportunities to expand one's base of knowledge and depth of character.
Second, he lives in the UK. College won't run him American prices.
Third, I truly think it's irresponsible to advise to the general populace that they skip college. Going to college need not be a headlong dive into staggering debt. There are options to afford yourself an education without breaking yourself. The "$80,000" scenario for a bachelors degree is the worst-case one, "one of those things that is [almost totally] false but which everyone repeats anyway."
I'm not sure I necessarily agree that liberal arts courses is a worthwhile time investment, though. But college isn't the waste of time you're trying to make it out to be.
Suppose you can rent a room for £250 per mo, eat and dress and buy utilities for the same and spend say £50 per mo of course on uni materials (books, tech, disposables). That's about £6450 pa. Add on fees of £7500.
Three year course under this regimen is c. £40k or $65k.
At my college (ie Uni) I paid 320 per mo for a room (quite a few years ago). Fees could be £9000 pa. At that rate the figures work out to c. $80k USD for a 3 year course.
I don't think that the $80k is the worst case scenario.
Matt, its not so much the price Im worried about, If I had to, I would make that much to fund my education, the thing I worry about is he value college brings. Would I be 'wasting' 2 years for all intents and purposes when I could be applying my time elsewhere?
The tax-payer pay you to do those two years don't they?
Personally I'd stick at school to do A-levels unless you were going in to something which is guaranteeing to make you a living and progress your career.
Insight: University fees for Students in the UK have risen from £3500 per year to either £6000 or a maximum of £9000 while the government has cut funding for teaching and research. Most universities have opted to charge the maximum £9000 per year to the surprise of the policymakers. These changes will arrive in 2012.
The government also behind start up culture with startup Britain: http://www.startupbritain.org/
But as the OP suggests, although there is a risk forming a startup at any time, education now seems to have the same amount of risk involved as it will settle the student with at least £40,000 of debt (fees 9000, accommodation food etc 3-4000) for 3-4 years.
Finding a job straight out of school at 16 will also be quite daunting as the unemployment level is continuously rising so there is no safety net.
Although this will not help now, I can only hope that when the country has settled its financial debt, it will make education free or more affordable although this could be wishful thinking..
The political reasoning behind the hike in fees is to make young people think harder about whether a university degree is actually going to be useful to them in their career. It's fairly clear that vocational courses would benefit some people a lot more than theoretical/academic courses, and society would benefit from this too.
At the moment young people tend to go to university by default, and there were (until recently) frequent stories about universities offering nonsense degrees just so they can claim funding from the government. I can't blame the those students who, in the past, went to university for 3 years just to learn how to be independent, make some friends and party. I don't think they'll do it if the privilege costs them several thousand pounds.
However, our current government in the UK has signalled a change - there is a feeling that making university easy to go to has manipulated unemployment figures downwards and has not really had the desired effect that you might expect from higher education. Historically, university attendance was much lower - not because of a lack of "fairness" in society but because society accepted that only the brightest and most motivated went to such a place.
I'd prefer it if young people didn't have to pay money to go to university but it's in society's interest that those who do go are recognised as having gone there for the right reasons and are qualified to do something productive. If there's a price attached to a degree then universities will (presumably) try harder to ensure that the value they provide is comparable with the fees charged by other universities.
To the original poster I would say this: If you think you're smart then you might as well stick it out and get a degree, especially if you think you have a chance of going to a top UK university. You will find it very difficult to get a degree later in life when you have more responsibilities. Degrees are still cheap in the UK compared to the USA (especially if you think you will one day earn an above-average salary).
This is certainly a way to see it. Its rational and logic. And of course, I don't think the public shouldn't pay shitty schools were people only party.
However, I wonder what the results in reality, where people are usually not acting so rational, will be. If people were that rational in first place, wouldn't they see, that the amount of money they won't earn while they are in college instead of working is way larger than the fees?
I don't know the society in the UK very well, but here in Germany I had friends in third grade, who where sent to school that won't lead to degrees that qualify for university! They we're smart and had good grades, but their parents wanted them to earn money once they're 16.
I wonder how many parents would have taken them out of school even before the ago of 16 if only it was legal.
And that whole system of compulsory education is >100 years old, here! Isn't it a fact, that todays world requires more learning and therefore more time in school?
Delayed maturity is a trend as long as homo sapiens sapiens exists.
I agree with you, Im at university atm in newcastle. If you can get into a good university, take it. There should be some grants to limit some of debt. Of course you could also apply to a Scottish university like Edinburgh which I think is only £1000 a year
Deferred entry to University may be a good option. A (little known) benefit of deferred university education in the UK is that as an 'independent student' (or mature student) you may qualify for full payment of your student fees:
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/EducationAndLearning/UniversityA...
I enrolled as an 'independent student' a few years ago (Male, 25 at the time, British citizen, no dependents, no significant savings) and, with part time jobs and moving back to live with my parents, graduated with very little student debt after 3 years.
It's worth considering, of course, that the pace of cuts in the UK may change this between now and when you're 25 (or already has). Just that you know it is an option.
I also, wanted to start a business, just a few days before my freshman year started. Even so, I never felt that I had enough time for a company next to my studies and research* I would go to college again. There are just so many products I wouldn't even think of, let alone having the toolset to build them, had I not gone to school.
*Some of my friends did and still graduated. But most of them didn't do research, also. And I think university is, first of all, still about research.
I feel so privileged.
Graduating in two months. Payed about 5000 Euros for 5 years of engineering education.
Got about 25k from the government for living expenses. More than half of it as a grant - independent of my grades, as long as I passed.*
I'm European, too. Of course, if you live in Scandinavia its even better than here in Germany. And yes, our system has lots of mistakes und isn't very fair in many cases. Still, I feel especially sorry for this, apparently super talented and hardworking kid. He can't even be sure that the fees won't rise while he is in college. I really hope he finds his way!
*Only requirement: Don't have rich parents, don't save money, don't earn to much with side jobs and fill out tons of paperwork about every aspect of your life.
I should probably add some more detail to the story:
1)I have a place confirmed at a good college, Im considering if I should take it
2)I have a multitude of job offers although I have one in particular earmarked as favourite
3)Through spending so much time working with startups/government/media in London, I have built up a great network of contacts already - unfortunately, I'd be unable to to the same thing at college
4)As one commenter pointed out - the startup is very time intensive and will need funding and someone to work on it full time in the near future
5)In reply to another comment, I do have a precise vision of exactly where I want to be. Being a 'successful entrepreneur' can mean a hundred different things to a hundred different people.
6)I dont fear failure if there is a possibility of success - I do however believe that taking such a massive risk is stupidity if there is NO chance of success. My blog post also acts as a way for me to 'test the waters' as it were to find out if success if possible.
As far as I know about a year or two. The problem I'd have with that is the fact that I probably wouldn't be able to fund going back to college - taking a break for a few years would set me back about another $20,000
If you take point 2) - the job offer - you could save lots of money with your lean lifestyle, no?
Or you find a big investor, found a limited and pay yourself a salary of which you save some money for school.
Of course all that is easier said than done.
If 'college' in the UK (where do I find info?) is similar to the "Kollegstufe" in Germany, specifically Bavaria, I would very much recommend it. We were allowed to choose majors, stop taking some courses, attendance wasn't always required, lots of free time and still a great and demanding liberal arts education. It was ten times more fun and effective then all the years before.
I'll add a couple of points with no clear plan and trying not to lead you too much.
First, it's not education or work. You can get a job and have a day in college or get a part time job and do a part-time college course. You can do "distance learning" eg with the Open University and do a full time job. You can go to Uni and fit in some work around it (again varies with course and type of work).
You can get start up grants when you're young, eg from Princes Trust.
Consider taking a job for a year and then reassess your situation. Will going to college genuinely further your career (depends on the field IMO)?
When you leave full time education you'll have to declare your earnings to HMRC even if they don't reach the lower earnings limit, this will effect the household income if you still live with your parents and could affect whatever housing benefit and income support they have. I'm not an expert on such things (it can get very complicated) but it will be a factor if you're earning and stay at home.
Also, let's clarify something -- when Josh says 'college,' he doesn't mean university, as per the American definition of that term, he means Sixth Form: British secondary education from the ages of 16-18, before heading to university.
Also - Just as a side note - Please share this post. I would like to get as wide a set of opinions as possible so I can assess the general consensus of opinion cross-industry in a few days. Thanks, J
College or University education is more than the "education". It's a way of life that people go through to gain some incredible social experiences that you can't get elsewhere. Now I agree that we always need to improve our education, but for the "college is worthless" because it doesn't help your career type, a great college(not a vocational school) is never for your career, it's for personal growth.
On a different note, do people notice that there are more and more teenagers using HN? I feel like HN is the new Myspace again.
There are plenty of experiences in the world that don't help your career, but rather help you grow personally. College may be one of them. On the other hand, doing things that help your career doesn't mean in any way that you don't grow personally. And so, the question becomes if you are a person who can deal with getting this personal growth without any other motivation or not. If growing personally is just not enough, then college may not be the best option and you may want to seek something else.
Personally, I prefer working on things that satisfy both conditions: 1) make me grow personally 2) help me achieve my business goals. I tried going with only one of those things (just 1 or just 2) and I could never managed to accomplish anything significant this way.
However, I've seen a lot of happy people who were able to do a lot with just one of those conditions.
I wonder why his choice is limited to 1) seeking to have a lucrative career at a big company, and 2) apparently seeking to hit a home run with a start up.
A third choice would be to immigrate to a country which still has cheap land and, as a single man, perform whatever is work necessary, for a few years, to buy and own a homestead outright. This could be done in about five years if he was frugal enough. Then... just do whatever the heck he feels like: get an education, start a business, save the world, whatever.
Josh - if you are a UK resident and citizen, you should be able to go to college and uni for free or for very nominal fees correct? Why the $80K debt?
Here is one perspective:
9 out of 10 startups fail. So even if you do drop out and start your own company, you are not likely to succeed the first or even second and third time round. But you will LEARN A LOT! You will learn a lot of things that uni would not teach you. That said, you can learn this whenever you start your company - at age 16 or age 22, or 33 in my case. That opportunity will not just go away because you go to college.
On the flip side, if you do go to college (a must IMO) and further 3 years of university you will also learn a lot. You will learn how to think about ideas and build your own perspective on the world around you so you dont have to listen to people like Peter Thiel (who btw not only went to university but also to law school afterwards. in fact vast majority of the "thielians" as you call them have multiple higher ed degrees.) This oppty will go away. People do go to college at a later age, but believe me its a lot harder, less interesting and extremely infrequent.
30 comments
[ 3.3 ms ] story [ 59.4 ms ] threadTrudging off dully into college like the est of the drones is an efficient way of becoming multidimensional? A more efficient way than DOING A STARTUP? GIVE me a goddamned BREAK! Isn't this one of those things that is just blatantly false but which everyone repeats anyway? And even if it were true, there'd be hella more efficient ways to round yourself using $80,000.
I have met people who frown upon college-level liberal-arts education, and now do my best to avoid them. It isn't so much that I agreed with everything that was taught in college (I was one of those students who would often end up arguing with the professor), it's just that such willful ignorance on the part of these people is a huge warning sign in my book.
BTW, I enjoy reading your blog.
But I have to disagree with you that it's a "gigantic blatant lie." Perhaps it's overly optimistic regarding the quality of education one would get for $80k, but it's not a lie. Sure, you can get very well-rounded by reading books on your own but there's a tremendous amount of value to be gotten from going to college too, maybe even a different kind of value, or for a different person.
I took a fair amount of higher level math in college and I really don't think I would have had the same experience studying that stuff on my own. I'm sure there are people who can read abstract algebra, analysis, and geometry textbooks on their own and get 100% of the understanding a good professor would try to impart during lectures, but I bet they are rare. In 16-18-yr olds, probably quite rare.
Regarding liberal arts courses, I had the opportunity to study Japanese literature and film with some really great professors, and that's something I could have obviously done on my own (watch movies, read books, write critical papers and mull over them by myself). But it's not the same. Maybe not better, maybe not worse, but I disagree with your assumption that self-study is a drop in replacement for college.
"Doing a startup" probably offers a great deal of opportunities for personal growth and well-roundedness, but I really don't think it's going to be the same as studying things like upper division math, compilers, the French new wave in depth at a decent university class.
I completely agree that college is totally over-priced. At $80k, my arguments start to look a little flimsy. But as a blanket statement, I have to disagree with you that the idea that "college offers value to someone wanting to be well-rounded" is a blatant lie. Also, your tone was a bit shrill.
Second, he lives in the UK. College won't run him American prices.
Third, I truly think it's irresponsible to advise to the general populace that they skip college. Going to college need not be a headlong dive into staggering debt. There are options to afford yourself an education without breaking yourself. The "$80,000" scenario for a bachelors degree is the worst-case one, "one of those things that is [almost totally] false but which everyone repeats anyway."
I'm not sure I necessarily agree that liberal arts courses is a worthwhile time investment, though. But college isn't the waste of time you're trying to make it out to be.
Three year course under this regimen is c. £40k or $65k.
At my college (ie Uni) I paid 320 per mo for a room (quite a few years ago). Fees could be £9000 pa. At that rate the figures work out to c. $80k USD for a 3 year course.
I don't think that the $80k is the worst case scenario.
Personally I'd stick at school to do A-levels unless you were going in to something which is guaranteeing to make you a living and progress your career.
Uni, different question.
The political reasoning behind the hike in fees is to make young people think harder about whether a university degree is actually going to be useful to them in their career. It's fairly clear that vocational courses would benefit some people a lot more than theoretical/academic courses, and society would benefit from this too.
At the moment young people tend to go to university by default, and there were (until recently) frequent stories about universities offering nonsense degrees just so they can claim funding from the government. I can't blame the those students who, in the past, went to university for 3 years just to learn how to be independent, make some friends and party. I don't think they'll do it if the privilege costs them several thousand pounds.
However, our current government in the UK has signalled a change - there is a feeling that making university easy to go to has manipulated unemployment figures downwards and has not really had the desired effect that you might expect from higher education. Historically, university attendance was much lower - not because of a lack of "fairness" in society but because society accepted that only the brightest and most motivated went to such a place.
I'd prefer it if young people didn't have to pay money to go to university but it's in society's interest that those who do go are recognised as having gone there for the right reasons and are qualified to do something productive. If there's a price attached to a degree then universities will (presumably) try harder to ensure that the value they provide is comparable with the fees charged by other universities.
To the original poster I would say this: If you think you're smart then you might as well stick it out and get a degree, especially if you think you have a chance of going to a top UK university. You will find it very difficult to get a degree later in life when you have more responsibilities. Degrees are still cheap in the UK compared to the USA (especially if you think you will one day earn an above-average salary).
However, I wonder what the results in reality, where people are usually not acting so rational, will be. If people were that rational in first place, wouldn't they see, that the amount of money they won't earn while they are in college instead of working is way larger than the fees?
I don't know the society in the UK very well, but here in Germany I had friends in third grade, who where sent to school that won't lead to degrees that qualify for university! They we're smart and had good grades, but their parents wanted them to earn money once they're 16.
I wonder how many parents would have taken them out of school even before the ago of 16 if only it was legal. And that whole system of compulsory education is >100 years old, here! Isn't it a fact, that todays world requires more learning and therefore more time in school? Delayed maturity is a trend as long as homo sapiens sapiens exists.
NB I am Scottish, I didn't pay any fees when I went to University in the 80s but I still can't justify this current policy.
I enrolled as an 'independent student' a few years ago (Male, 25 at the time, British citizen, no dependents, no significant savings) and, with part time jobs and moving back to live with my parents, graduated with very little student debt after 3 years.
It's worth considering, of course, that the pace of cuts in the UK may change this between now and when you're 25 (or already has). Just that you know it is an option.
I also, wanted to start a business, just a few days before my freshman year started. Even so, I never felt that I had enough time for a company next to my studies and research* I would go to college again. There are just so many products I wouldn't even think of, let alone having the toolset to build them, had I not gone to school.
*Some of my friends did and still graduated. But most of them didn't do research, also. And I think university is, first of all, still about research.
I'm European, too. Of course, if you live in Scandinavia its even better than here in Germany. And yes, our system has lots of mistakes und isn't very fair in many cases. Still, I feel especially sorry for this, apparently super talented and hardworking kid. He can't even be sure that the fees won't rise while he is in college. I really hope he finds his way!
*Only requirement: Don't have rich parents, don't save money, don't earn to much with side jobs and fill out tons of paperwork about every aspect of your life.
1)I have a place confirmed at a good college, Im considering if I should take it 2)I have a multitude of job offers although I have one in particular earmarked as favourite 3)Through spending so much time working with startups/government/media in London, I have built up a great network of contacts already - unfortunately, I'd be unable to to the same thing at college 4)As one commenter pointed out - the startup is very time intensive and will need funding and someone to work on it full time in the near future 5)In reply to another comment, I do have a precise vision of exactly where I want to be. Being a 'successful entrepreneur' can mean a hundred different things to a hundred different people. 6)I dont fear failure if there is a possibility of success - I do however believe that taking such a massive risk is stupidity if there is NO chance of success. My blog post also acts as a way for me to 'test the waters' as it were to find out if success if possible.
If 'college' in the UK (where do I find info?) is similar to the "Kollegstufe" in Germany, specifically Bavaria, I would very much recommend it. We were allowed to choose majors, stop taking some courses, attendance wasn't always required, lots of free time and still a great and demanding liberal arts education. It was ten times more fun and effective then all the years before.
First, it's not education or work. You can get a job and have a day in college or get a part time job and do a part-time college course. You can do "distance learning" eg with the Open University and do a full time job. You can go to Uni and fit in some work around it (again varies with course and type of work).
You can get start up grants when you're young, eg from Princes Trust.
Consider taking a job for a year and then reassess your situation. Will going to college genuinely further your career (depends on the field IMO)?
When you leave full time education you'll have to declare your earnings to HMRC even if they don't reach the lower earnings limit, this will effect the household income if you still live with your parents and could affect whatever housing benefit and income support they have. I'm not an expert on such things (it can get very complicated) but it will be a factor if you're earning and stay at home.
Don't forget to concentrate on your exams!!
On a different note, do people notice that there are more and more teenagers using HN? I feel like HN is the new Myspace again.
Personally, I prefer working on things that satisfy both conditions: 1) make me grow personally 2) help me achieve my business goals. I tried going with only one of those things (just 1 or just 2) and I could never managed to accomplish anything significant this way.
However, I've seen a lot of happy people who were able to do a lot with just one of those conditions.
A third choice would be to immigrate to a country which still has cheap land and, as a single man, perform whatever is work necessary, for a few years, to buy and own a homestead outright. This could be done in about five years if he was frugal enough. Then... just do whatever the heck he feels like: get an education, start a business, save the world, whatever.
Here is one perspective: 9 out of 10 startups fail. So even if you do drop out and start your own company, you are not likely to succeed the first or even second and third time round. But you will LEARN A LOT! You will learn a lot of things that uni would not teach you. That said, you can learn this whenever you start your company - at age 16 or age 22, or 33 in my case. That opportunity will not just go away because you go to college.
On the flip side, if you do go to college (a must IMO) and further 3 years of university you will also learn a lot. You will learn how to think about ideas and build your own perspective on the world around you so you dont have to listen to people like Peter Thiel (who btw not only went to university but also to law school afterwards. in fact vast majority of the "thielians" as you call them have multiple higher ed degrees.) This oppty will go away. People do go to college at a later age, but believe me its a lot harder, less interesting and extremely infrequent.