If average salaries are 80-100k why does everyone keep getting 40-60k offers?
A little background for myself:
I've had a couple jobs. First was a student sys admin at U of MN computer science dept at about $10/hour (I think). Then in the Army where I made around $30k by the time I got out.
My next job in the industry was a relatively small company in the Portland area and there I made about $47k when I left and all new grads/entry level people were being offered $40k, no exceptions. The people there that had 5-10 years of experience were only making in the $65k range. And the senior developer/general manager was only making about $100k.
When I was offered the job I asked for $55k which I thought was really pushing it for only having some experience developing stuff in the army and in my classes.
So, what gives? What's with the Buick sized disconnect between my experiences and what I hear being discussed here on HN? Is there really a 40k difference in salaries just based on location?
All in all I consider myself a very good programmer (Honestly I'd guess in the top 80% of programmers, I haven't met one that's better than myself, but I don't consider myself nearly as experienced as a lot of the people here) that's passionate about coding and I've been doing it since I was in middle school, so I really want to be able to value myself accurately, but something just feels off about it. Looking at everything going on I'm thinking of leaving grad school if I can get offers like this?
Am I just marketing myself wrong? Any feedback would be appreciated.
You can check me out at github.com/solarmist or http://www.linkedin.com/pub/joshua-olson/5/521/88b.
144 comments
[ 6.9 ms ] story [ 264 ms ] threadSlightly longer answer: It almost always pays to go to the center of your field. You get paid less at a relatively small company in Portland because they get paid less. Firms in Silicon Valley focus on eliminating whole industries; when they succeed at that, they capture basically all the value that the incumbents in that industry had. That gives them large quantities of cash, and since there are so many other companies in the region competing for the same talent pool, a lot of that cash goes to employees.
BTW, $80-100K/year is quite low in Silicon Valley. That might be a starting salary at Microsoft for someone fresh out of school.
Live in Midwest: Job 1: Make 65,000. Job 2: Make 70,000.
Live in the Valley: Job 1: Make 120,000. Move to Midwest. Job 2: Probably keep making 120,000.
It is not a dollar-for-dollar match when you move to Silicon Valley. The pay disparity between living in SV and not living in SV is disproportionate to the cost of living. (In no way do I intend that to sound negative.)
Silicon Valley has really, really nice weather, almost to the point of monotony. It rained something like 3 times last summer, and the rest of the time it was 75-85 degrees without being too humid. There's a lot of asian cuisine available, and some of the best restaurants (of many varieties) in the world to the North in Napa. Nature is extremely accessible, and some of the best skiing in the US is a relatively short drive (the Rockies are much, much better than the Appalachians). It's a day-tripper's heaven.
As for downsides, Houses tend to be smaller, and even those are absurdly expensive. Rents in the better parts are just a cut below low-end NYC rents. The atmosphere could be described as "Irrational Exuberance" or more commonly as an echo chamber, which can be great encouragement if you're trying to do something crazy, but it can also severely weaken your BS filter if you're not careful. Silicon Valley itself is better-than-average suburban sprawl, but it's still suburban sprawl. The public transit system is lackluster compared to NYC, but it is an option, at least. Access to a car is generally necessary (ZipCar might work, though).
There are a bunch of other upsides and downsides, but those are the impressions off the top of my head from having lived there a bit less than a year. Overall, I really like it.
I'm genuinely curious:
What whole industries have been eliminated? Also what value do you refer to? Are you saying that all profit that used to go to industry X now goes to a silicon valley company?
amazon and local booksellers or borders
netflix and blockbuster
google and {altavista, yahoo (on their way), excite, ask, infoseek, inktomi}
oracle and a long list of competitors
This would be a fun list to really spend some time on
Independent bookstores. Catalog retailers. Much of general retail. Antique & collectible shops. Classified ads. Yellow pages. Newspapers & magazines. Books. The music cartel. Travel agents. Realtors and education are probably next.
And yes, all (or most) of the profit that used to go to those industries now goes to Amazon/EBay/Craigslist/Google/Apple/Kayak etc.
Before I say why I say this, can you please reply with your age? I want to test a theory which I will reveal in full if you dont mind answering..
EDIT: typo
Read this before doing every interview:
Game Theory, Salary Negotiation, and Programmers http://stevehanov.ca/blog/index.php?id=67
I believe what he means to say is this:
But look at housing costs, etc. You'll find depending on what you want (big house/short commute/etc) SF may not be the right place.
It's based on a WSJ article: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870343950457611...
I've seen this number several other places as well, varing from 96k to 104.
I live in Atlanta. I get articles from Georgia Tech about the tech job scene here as well as averages for different majors, etc. If you really really really want me to find an email from Tech, and stick it on the web I will.
I get Austin numbers talking to people I know there...
I have housing market comparisons for all three cities and Vancouver due to talking to friends in all three areas.
Secondly just out of school should get significantly below average salaries. You don't realize it until you've been out in the working world for a bit. But people learn a lot in their first few years of being in the real world.
Thirdly I wonder whether your figures are accurate. My experience is that people's impressions of other people's salaries are often out of sync with reality. In part because companies push people who make more to never let on that they do, so that other people don't push to make more money. (I've had the experience at multiple jobs of being told directly that letting people know my salary is a fireable offense.)
I doubt that enforcement would be a problem if they wished to enforce it.
[1] http://www.bestplaces.net/col/?salary=55000&city1=541590...
Also, tech companies or companies started by or run by tech people may pay at a higher rate because they know the value of the skills and want to attract and invest in top quality employees.
Also, I've heard that companies prefer to pay what a job (they think) is worth, regardless of location. Just something I've heard.
And of course, they will think that whatever they pay is whatever it is worth, because they have no other indicator of fair prices.
So the salaries are higher, but the standards for hiring are also that much higher. If you are that good at programming, come to the Bay Area and you'll find a job. There are always people hiring...
There's a huge race for talent right now. You've got a peculiar background compared to most startup hires, but if you've got the chops to make it thru an interview, I imagine you'd get snatched up in the Valley (or Seattle) for $100-110k, easy. In the Valley, probably more.
I know a great company in Seattle that'd give you a $12k signing bonus, give ME $12k for referring you, and give you an iPad just for making it to the interview process.
Disclaimer: No idea if you can ship software, how broad your skills are (web dev front end to backend? Sysadmin chops? iOS?), etc.
My friend says that he isn't able to get people to join his present company even at those rates and the only people attending interviews are clueless Indian developers who are waiting for their Green Cards[1] but hardly know how to create a table in MySQL. The good people who do join soon leave for better companies or startups.
[1] I am Indian myself fwiw. I am not saying all Indian devs are clueless, just that those applying at my friend's company are.
$75-$100k represents 0-5 year engineer in the vast majority of cases. Most mid-career folks earn between $130-$160k.
n.b. There are definitely exceptions. Difficult and specific hires will generally command market rate + 50%.
First I think it is 180k gross salary, not really "base". Second, as I said, all I know is that he is working on some kind of CRUD Rails Insurance App that makes its company millions of dollars. He is just a competent Rails dev. No genius of any kind or any extraordinary skills like, say Linus Torvalds. Maybe he is being paid a premium because he is the only capable dev in the company. Maybe he just got lucky. He has a dozen years or so of experience. I really don't know any details hence the "anecdote" prefix.
If it helps, I knew middle managers at Intuit were drawing well above 200k US$ at nowhere near "Senior Director" level. My immediate boss in India was drawing around that much. And his boss about 300k. Another "dotted line"/ matrix org( heh!) immediate superior was getting >250k as well. This guy was a "Chief Architect" and not manager at all. (well in Intuit all these positions are very political and not really about tech at all, still) And he had a 3-4 layers above him before he reached the boardroom players at Intuit. I don't consider GlassDoor to be authoritative but here is a report for a position (plain jane "architect") that would be one level below my "Chief Architect" boss.
http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Intuit-Software-Architect-Mo...
Seems to bear out my thesis that these kind of salaries aren't all that rare. To repeat, I am not saying GlassDoor estimates are accurate, just that in this case, it bears out my personal experience.
Another anecdote: My title at Intuit (India) had an additional (and empty) "Senior Program Manager" tacked onto "Architect" and I was getting > 100k in India. (In Intuit, when I was there, Indian salaries were roughly half US salaries for the same position.) They still find it very hard to hire senior technical people. Go figure.
My personal hypothesis on such things is that salaries follow perceived (vs actual) value add. I had nothing to do at Intuit except attend endless meetings about meetings and write the occasional email. I quit in 6 months.(It helped that I really didn't need the money and I could make an equivalent amount but actually working for it (which I am doing now touch wood)). My former division at Intuit has delivered nothing (except PowerPoint) in the last couple of years but everyone who is still there keeps drawing their salaries. Some even got raises.
So, yes. Intuit is a cash flush/high paying company, but I still wouldn't really blink at someone getting 200 k in San Fransisco, without being anything like a VP, but hey I don't live there. What do I know? I am glad to concede to people "on the ground".
PS : I also have friends, who are really good developers working on very cutting edge projects in Google (Mountain View) who don't make anything near 250 k. They are very fulfilled by their work and don't seem to care. So it seems to be all over the place. But there certainly are very normal devs getting >200k in SV. (and of course many more at WallStreet companies but that is probably a separate discussion).
In my experience "chief architects" do tend to get paid a lot, regardless of direct reports.
By the way - this discussion is very confusing since most people in this thread are talking about base salary, yet you seem to consistently talk about entire package.
It'd be great to compare for those of us based in the UK.
Incidentally I also noticed a comment here that mentioned that everyone is hiring, presumably in the Valley, and suggested you brush up your resume and go to networking events and look for a better offer. If you do decide to dust off your resume then you may be interested in my new startup http://www.mightycv.com/. You can sign up for the beta with this code: 22MARCH2011. It's a resume builder aimed at developers/hackers and integrates with HN, StackOverflow and Github. It imports from LinkedIn too. Here's my MightyCV by way of an example: http://robeastham.mightycv.com .
Isn't USD100k a ridiculously large salary in Bangalore for any job that has 'Developer' in the title. I'm actually completely blown that a person at a software company in Bangalore could be making that much.
Salaries in Bangalore are heavily dependent on "years of experience". The way the HR folks calculate expected salary is something like 2-2.5 lakhs Indian rupees(about 4-5k US $ depending on the exchange rate) * number of years of experience. So with about 12 years of experience[1] you should be getting about 48-60k$ if you are still coding and are at least somewhat good at your job. This is the average* though and falls precipitously as you move towards the bodyshopping end of the bell curve. (You can still make this kind of money as a manager though, even at the most cheapskate bodyshopper)
The really good folks get better salaries than that. The interesting thing about Bangalore is that the range of salaries is wide. You have barely literate "coding bodies" (who the "outsourcers" encounter) drawing puny salaries and also very senior devs who can pick and choose where and what they work on and get close to US salaries(and often have spent a few years in the USA before heading home for good).
So yes 100k is high but not ridiculously so, (If by "ridiculous" you mean someone getting such a salary is some kind of absolute rarity, and an object of wonder when spotted). Otoh I've never heard of any kind of dev/tech person getting say 200k $ or more, though I know people in the US who do. (they are pretty rare too)
"I'm actually completely blown that a person at a software company in Bangalore could be making that much."
You really should talk to some senior devs in Google's (say) Bangalore office ;-). Twenty years from when outsourcing took off,things have changed, even in Bangalore although that change is still unevenly distributed. Not every dev in India is grubbing for the crumbs from the outsourcer's table any more.
That said, this is just my viewpoint based on what I see. Consume with appropriate dosages of salt. Even better talk to some world class Indian devs who chose to stay on in or come back to India and find out for yourself.
[0] Of course some "architects" are just people who got old and never got promoted, just is in the USA.
[1] Title Inflation is a real problem due to differing social expectations etc which is a subject that would take pages to explain.
[2]there is heavy pressure to move into management (see [1]) and it is only the really committed devs who stay coding for 10 years +. Which makes their supply all that much rarer for when you really need them.
Also, while a few make $100k, $50k is common for people with over a decade of good experience - but do remember that there are relatively very few folks (<5-10% of the industry) in India with over a decade of experience.
In a place like Silicon Valley, it's impossible to not meet somebody that's better than you.
Either that, or I'm seriously underestimating your programming ability!
If you only make around 60k now, don't expect to get a 100% raise once you move over to a tech hub, unless you are an amazing negotiator. Shoot for 85-90 (plus some stocks). Don't waste time at a company that doesn't have a lot of growth potential. Work harder and output more than the rest of your team does. Stay visible, make sure they know the value of your contributions. A few 10% raises/promotions later and you could be up to 120k+ in no time.
A few Seattle companies I know of have hired portland telecommuters because they've had trouble finding good talent up here. I have no idea how much that is happening outside of my experience.
And this one is no other. And I live in the Bay Area… my internship was nowhere the $8k mentioned at some point for Google and my first salary was pretty far from the $100k that are floating around here once again.
That being said, I actually checked salaries of H1b (I was one too) at my current and previous companies and mine looked decent in comparison. So, I'm not sure if it's matter of me picking the wrong/cheap companies (and being bad at negotiating, but I know that) or that there is some selection bias going on.
Today, I hear from friends who still live out there that not much has changed, but I would be looking at 70K in salary with 2 years experience.
If you can, hold out for better opportunities and please, please, please, don't sell yourself short. A 15K would not make a difference to these companies. It will make a difference to you. I went to silicon valley from mid-west with a 30K jump in salary back in the day. I shared an apartment in the bay area and living costs didn't matter that much. The money did.
Please don't make this an argument about what language is better, blah blah blah, but the language you specialize in makes a difference -- at least in terms of salary.
From my limited experience, Ruby/Rails pays significantly more than PHP or .NET . I hear Java pays even more... Just sayin...
Edit: This is why I love these salary threads. We could have just potentially changed the OP's life (for the better I hope), even if to most people its just an annoying topic that keeps coming up on HN.
Seriously, brush up your resume and apply to the major firms.
By the way, I should note that cost of living and taxes are much higher here. Standard rent is >$2k (which is nothing compared to some parts of NYC, I guess...)
I've always used a rule of thumb that rent is $1k/month/bedroom around Palo Alto, a bit less in Mountain View / Sunnyvale / Redwood City, and a bit more in SF. >$2k/month/bedroom sounds extraordinarily high - where were you seeing that?
> Salary offers ranged from $65,000 to $95,000. The average salary offer was $79,333. The median salary offer was $ 80,000.
Granted (heh), this doesn't include stock options.
http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-San-Jose-Salaries-EI_...
http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/cupertino-apple-salary-SRC...
http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-jose-microsoft-salary-...
If you really want to know how you stack up with devs in SV, come out here for a hackathon or SF Startup Weekend.
Decide for yourself who's smarter and ask them what they think is a fair offer for your skills. If you've figured out they're smart, they will probably already have an idea.
Good positions fill quickly, just like good developers find jobs quickly. What's left is bad developers and bad jobs.
So what you're seeing is not hundreds of employers who don't know what the market rate is. It's dozens of employers who refuse to believe the market rate is where it is, and therefore continue advertising for the same position over and over. There will always be that $50k Senior Dev position available in Hillsboro because they're never going to fill it.