Yeah, man, instead of paying someone to teach me something I could have them do it with my body and just follow along in the background. The jump in pedagogy would be amazing.
I'd pay for that. Like someone holding your hand through something except the memory remains afterwards. Ah, amazing. Maybe when I'm reading, someone else controls my arm to do bicep curls. Fuck me, this is amazing.
Hmm. It was watchable, but not overwhelmingly so.
But no trash either.
edit: Also, along the lines of "be careful what you wish for", the alltime classic "Brainstorm" from 1983 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085271 comes to mind.
I'd love to have this for goats or sheep. We have a bunch of trees and other vegetation on our property so fences would be a pain. If I could set up virtual fences and shift them around the yard it would be fantastic.
There are a lot of places where I see complicated fencing put up to manage cattle in parks where this would be extremely nice as well. Instead of breaking up a nice park with barbed wire to protect areas you could geo-fence them off.
Yes, drives me insane when I'm out in the middle of nowhere enjoying a view only to stumble across a stretch of barbed wire. I'm skeptical public grazing is a great use of public lands regardless, but now that we have this technology it should be mandatory that anyone who grazes on public lands use this instead of adding more fencing.
Cattle shouldn't be grazing on public land in Western USA, period. Even if this technology worked over such vast spaces (I'm sure it doesn't), it would be a mistake to let it become another excuse for people like Cliven Bundy to break the law.
I don't mean to be a pessimist but I believe the cows will get the collars hung on whatever they can and either tear them off, or if they're not strong enough; be stuck until they are found or die.
Edit, I suppose it could work on a dairy where a human works with the animal every day. I would be curious to know how often these things break.
Cows are pretty smart and self-aware animals (e.g. they are ashamed if they are seen by their peers during milk extraction). I'm not sure that they'll take an aggressive stance against the collars if it's not used abusively. On the contrary, they might be more content if they are both being able to roam outside and be warned of the limits without being irritated so much.
AFAIK, cows are not aggressive animals unless they're physically attacked or threatened.
I think OP was talking about the collars getting caught on something accidentally. I’ve certainly seen sheep get their heads stuck even without a collar.
We raise beef cows but all of our moms are shy nursers. Especially early on in a baby's life. We make sure the baby is alive and thriving and then stay away. I've seen mom's toss off a nursing calf just because she saw you looking at her so many times now that we try hard to avoid being seen at all in the first few days.
Yes, the sound of a pulse of electricity similar to the fence they're already familiar with. Cows are typically kept in pens with high-voltage electric fencing. The energizer fires a 3,000V pulse, lasting about 300 microseconds, every second or two.
This 1Hz impulse is often audible as a repetitive hum if you stand near the wire. By replicating the sound I expect you could suggest the cattle move somewhere else.
my cows are too smart for electric fences. i set one up to separate 2 herds with a bull in each herd. the bulls will fight if the ladies are in season. they watched me set up the fence worked out that I placed the control box up at the same time the the fence got all zappy they pulled all the wires out of the control box. Cows are a lot smarter than people give them credit for.
Huh? An electric fence can't induce a cow to stay within a boundary?
The collars here are basically the same training collars they make for dogs. They require constant recharging (at least once a week) and have other downsides like range, etc.
Moving cows is done today (as has been done for thousands of years) by calling them with, e.g. your voice. A lot of herds will come home on schedule without you even calling them.
My cows love to defecate on each other. From my observations of other herds, they're not alone in this. A solar panel coated with a layer of dried manure isn't going to do much recharging.
Moving a virtual fence is easier than moving a real one, and virtual fences only hold back cattle, not other wildlife or humans.
I also expect that, for cattle grazing on land that isn’t very green, fencing indeed can be expensive. Reading https://agrilifeextension.tamu.edu/library/ranching/stocking... (IMO worth it, if only for the heading “Not Every Cow is An Animal Unit”. That article wasn’t written by a physicist), there are areas where so little is growing that each cow needs 30+ acres of land (top-quality grassland can get close to 1 acre per cow, but such land ¿typically/always? needs care by the farmer, such as the use of fertilizer)
I did some video work this year for Nedap out of the Netherlands who have cow collars that track heat detection and health issues. e.g., they’ll track reduced movement or tossing of the head, rumination, etc. Coupled with smart gates at the dairy, they can isolate cows automatically to health pens for review, etc.
One dairy we visited had robotic milk machines running all night. The cows return as needed and the cups automatically find the tests, check for disease, track milk volume and so on.
Their methodology of allowing the herd to function independently and then focusing data collection on health issues and consistency is the right idea here. You want to measure time spent caring for the herd against time spent perform actions to continue to collect milk from the herd. It's a balance, but if you can get more efficient human time spent caring for the herd (good health sensors!) then you're always going to see a happier cow.
Yes, the teats are cleaned, cups cleaned, all automatically. Cow is fed during and has optional feed afterwards. Instead of there being a fixed milking time, the cows just come in whenever they feel like it - encouraged by the feeling of relief. They’d auto-detect mastitis etc.
Obviously people have views on dairy but the tech was very cool to see up close. The dairy family could look up on their phone, any particular cow and get info on milk volume and timings.
That's very cool. I have mixed feelings on replacing humans in yet another role, but if it can do a better job than humans (automatically dump & flag mastitis cases, clean more thoroughly, etc.) it's a win.
Typically a system like this is replacing a rotary dairy which can be operated by 1-2 people, plus health/AI contractors as needed. In the case of these robotic milking machines, one of the owners (the mother of the family) said that it had rejuvenated their interest in the dairy industry. I guess it would remove the early morning starts and sitting around watching cows for signs of heat which would get old fast.
I'd love to work on this for health monitoring and locating cows. But the application the writeup describes--moving the cows to the barn--is a solved problem, at least at feeding time.
When I raised cows all I had to do was yell "FOOOOOOD!" across the pasture and they came running.
You can use a dog our simply open a gate and cows will respond well. I grew up on a mid sized dairy farm and a good incentive to have a human go and fetch the cows was (and has always been) to have eyes on the herd. You can't see her ears or how hard it might be to get up when you just issue vibrations.
Reminds me of a tale here in South Africa. An ostrich farmer contracted an electronics company to develop a product to determine which of his ostriches were sick. The company realised that a sick ostrich do not eat, and as such developed a neck band with a tilt sensor, to detect which ostriches were not eating. Great, problem solved. Except now you have to seperate the sick ostriches from the healthy ones. And the farmer said he will put food in a connected camp, and as the ostriches move between camps, he will seperate the sick ones from the healthy ones. Except the sick ones weren't interested in food, and thus automatically stayed behind in the camp, also negating the need for the original electronic neck band.
So I grew up on a dairy farm and we had electronic id badges since the mid-90's (actually there was a Surge system before that, but the main one was a DeLavel in 1997). We had a variety of issues that these were good for, but the gist is that the cow's identity is scanned and matched with statistics regarding her milking. Everytime she entered the parlor she was id-ed and then the system could be configured to separate her from the herd based on rules or by a preconfigured request. It is still how my parents do herd management; except ow they have a button in their ear a little bigger than a quarter.
I see some major drawbacks for things like this:
1. Because of the way cows behavior naturally they will get their neck band caught on something. Extrication can become dire and stressful. A few deaths and a system like this is simply not worth it.
2. These will be roughed up -- like a lot. Cows like to play in water and rub on things. If this company doesn't last you'll be SOL quick enough that your initial investment won't pay off (saying nothing of software dependencies...)
3. The point of interacting with cows manually is to see her. Even in herds in the 1000s someone familiar with the herd will recognize cows (especially past problem ones) and can also see issues before they become a risk for her.
Cows are very well adjusted to being taken care of by humans. Everytime you back off the human component from herd management the domesticated cow will be less cared for.
Yes getting in and out of a stanchion is a scary experience for the cow and human both! Adding a chunk around the neck that could make entering and exiting more difficult can pose risks for both parties.
Our dairy cows have activity tracking (heat detection/poor health detection) collars, and they work fine with lockups. The cows do turn their head a bit differently to make sure the collar clears, but they learn quickly and we've had no deaths yet (200ish cows, 5ish years of using the collars)
Very much this. Even more with places like ours where all of our cows have horns (highlands). I can see all sorts of bad things happening when two cows get hooked together when a horn slips under another cow's collar.
Add to that, my wife can gather and guide the entire herd with a bucket full of cubes, or every even random junk in a pinch to get them to go anywhere she wants whenever she wants.
i currently own a small cattle farm in rural australia and you are correct collars really are not a good solution not only do they rub on things but they love chewing on things especially rubber or plastic wires and electronics they would 100% chew on each others collars. We already use rfid ear tags which are small and unobtrusive and they still manage to occasionally rip those out, rubbing on things. If you were mustering a herd on a large holding say a few thousand hectares this could possibly be of some value at least in initially finding the herd however at least in my country if you are on a multiple k hectare property there is a good chance you wont have any sort of mobile coverage, also cows are creature of habit they have there daily grazing route they eat one place rest in another depending on time of day and weather conditions farmers typically know this.
I will also add that the value proposition I have seen with other smart tags that are actual ear tags that do temp / heart rate etc etc does not add up at least with my small holding. the price per month of $5 per cow would eat into the already somewhat slim margins, the data is great but it isn't anything i would not notice by visually checking stock daily.
im very skeptical on the faas model in general.
Farmers at least in my country would balk at spending that sort of money a month that doesn't directly add very much in the way of weight / condition per month, at least from a beef cattle stand point. (perhaps on a prize bull you could justify the monthly fee)
I don't know much about cattle or dairy farming, but in Switzerland cows are running around in the mountains with big bells around their neck and horns on their heads. Would such a collar really be that dangerous for them?
Open pastures are pretty safe, but as soon as the cow comes in contact with a gate/fence or other man-made objects (...milking parlors) they may have issues catching the neck band.
I'm in the process of writing up my thesis, focused exactly on this domain; collars for detection of eating, rumination, and oestrus behaviour (welfare and fertility), from Afimilk Silent Herdsman (collar system was originally a spinout from my University), combined with Automatic Milking Systems (robots) from Fullwood Packo (the Merlin).
In general, the cows are more driven to the robotic milkers by the feed they recieve while in the machine, rather than the feeling of relief (these systems generally provide an alert of cows being lazy...ones that haven't been milked in 10+ hours and need a shove), however these systems _do_ provide both improved health and improved productivity.
Even in experienced dairy herds, handling the animals and shoving them all to the robot at the same time causes stress. Having these machines running constantly (1 machine can handle a herd of ~50) lets cows regulate their own pattern, which can benefit herd dynamics as well (more timid animals can self regulate to a quieter period away from pushier animals). Farms can easily see 10-20% improvement on milk yield.
It also has the benefit that animals can go more or less often...you may have some animals who are comfortable with 3 visits a day, some comfortable at 4 (or even 5 if they have really high yield).
On my grandfather's ranch, he had those rows of pipes laid in the ground with spaces between them at the road entrance. The cows couldn't walk across them, but your car would do just fine.
When he made a back entrance, he just painted white lines instead of the more expensive pipe setup. He'd learned from neighboring ranches that once the cows understand the pipes, they won't walk across the painted lines. And, I don't quite know how, but new cows learn from the existing herd not to try the white lines.
I've heard a similar story about an experiment with monkeys, apparently called the 'five monkeys experiment' [1].
A group of monkeys were put in a room with a ladder leading to a banana. When a monkey touches the banana, sprinklers turn on and soak the room. The monkeys quickly learnt to ignore the banana to avoid getting wet, and even physically stopped newly introduced monkeys (who were unaware of the sprinklers) from climbing the ladder.
The entire group was eventually replaced one by one. The replacement group had never seen the consequence of climbing the ladder, but policed eachother as well as any new members from eating the banana.
Yes. Whoever developed it has obviously never seen real primate behaviour which is usually totally driven by what the alpha male thinks or does. A low ranker who tried to police the alpha would get a serious beating.
> he had those rows of pipes laid in the ground with spaces between them at the road entrance
Yes, exactly, a.k.a. Cattle Grid [0]. They are heavily used in the UK in National Parks where there are free-ranging livestock (horses, cattle, etc). There is one just a mile from where I live, at the edge of the New Forest.
> but your car would do just fine.
If only the tourists realised this! Locals take them at speed and you just shoot across them and the speed evens out the bumpiness. Tourists take them slow which makes them much more noisy and bumpy. That said if you try to turn on them (e.g. if you haven't straightened up from a junction) they can cause a significant skid risk, especially when they are wet.
Finally, many of the local ones have little escape ramps for small animals (e.g. hedgehogs) that fall in and then would otherwise get trapped in the pit below the pipes.
I spent a year or two doing research on electronically herding cows. Dean Anderson at the USDA holds patents on it (which are probably about to expire, or may have already). We worked with him some and with CSIRO in Australia who I think also holds patents (maybe Halter has licensed them and collaborates with them?) The main reason there is interest in this technology is that fencing is expensive. Think many kilometers of fencing, the cost adds up, and they have to be maintained as well. Also areas next to water are difficult to keep cows away from and fences don't work as well there and the cows tend to damage the soft land. We tried using only sound to guide the cows, with no Pavlovian conditioning and found it didn't work very well. CSIRO used electric shock and found it worked very well, but also upset the cows. Dean and CSIRO then tried electric shock for Pavlovian conditioning, then switched to just sound for earlier warnings before finally shock was applied and found that the cows would eventually respond to just the sound and got less distressed. It's not perfect though, some cows are strong willed and will ignore sounds and shocks and just keep going. If the rest of the herd moves away, they will tend to rejoin it though.
There are some problems with the technology. Temple Grandin visited us and said she didn't like the idea of people actually visiting the cows less. Collar worn sensors can't tell if a cow has a rock in its hoof or detect all diseases. With less human observation the cows may suffer more. I've seen one cow start chewing on another cows collar to help it try to get it off. GPS antenna have to stay facing skyward and can be blocked by trees. Some of the later research switched to ear tags instead of collars because they are less of an impedance and less likely to get damaged by the cows. It's more difficult to get everything you need into an ear tag though. There have been several attempts to start companies based on the technology, all of which failed so far. Halter appears to be the latest.
We stopped doing research when a prison company approached us with an interest in putting the collars on prisoners.
I grew up in an area with huge ranches and open range. Cattle were frequently turned out in the spring and would sometimes go weeks if not months without interacting with humans. Fencing riparian areas is hard, and cattle can be hard on them. Collars to keep them out of the creek would be really helpful, I think. It could also alert you if a cow has been injured or has been separated from the rest of the herd. It would also make round-up a lot more efficient. This strikes me as great tech. The only challenge would be their resilience and proclivity to getting hung up.
I loathe to see us getting more and more experienced at killing and controlling animals - go check out that thread on crow intelligence - we should stop and think for a while before we laude our superiority over the world.
In the 35th anniversary talk on the 4004 at the Computer History Museum in 2006, Ted Hoff mentioned that one of the applications of the 4004 was for computerized cow collars for tracking feed and water ingestion:
I did some digging around in this field and I tend to like the approach from smaxtec[1] a lot more. Since they measure all the metrics from within the cow, their solution can't be lost or damaged.
And if the sensor is in for a lifetime(as they promise), maintenance is about zero I guess.
[edit]Location is a thing they can't do by the looks of it. Guess a GPS signal is weak if being recieved in the cow.
It seems as though the Nedap Livestock management approach is a bit easier to apply, plus it does location within buildings[1]. Love the hololens integration as well[2].
74 comments
[ 2.3 ms ] story [ 150 ms ] thread...including humans?
I'd pay for that. Like someone holding your hand through something except the memory remains afterwards. Ah, amazing. Maybe when I'm reading, someone else controls my arm to do bicep curls. Fuck me, this is amazing.
edit: Also, along the lines of "be careful what you wish for", the alltime classic "Brainstorm" from 1983 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085271 comes to mind.
Thanks for the quick reviews! :)
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/mar/04/cockroach-ro...
There are a lot of places where I see complicated fencing put up to manage cattle in parks where this would be extremely nice as well. Instead of breaking up a nice park with barbed wire to protect areas you could geo-fence them off.
Edit, I suppose it could work on a dairy where a human works with the animal every day. I would be curious to know how often these things break.
AFAIK, cows are not aggressive animals unless they're physically attacked or threatened.
Do you have a link discussing this? I find it hilarious and fascinating and I'd like to learn more. Thanks!
> we instead use sound to replicate a fence line with a pulse used during the initial training period to help a cow understand the meaning of sound
This 1Hz impulse is often audible as a repetitive hum if you stand near the wire. By replicating the sound I expect you could suggest the cattle move somewhere else.
The collars here are basically the same training collars they make for dogs. They require constant recharging (at least once a week) and have other downsides like range, etc.
A fence can't move a cow from one location to another at an assigned time.
I also expect that, for cattle grazing on land that isn’t very green, fencing indeed can be expensive. Reading https://agrilifeextension.tamu.edu/library/ranching/stocking... (IMO worth it, if only for the heading “Not Every Cow is An Animal Unit”. That article wasn’t written by a physicist), there are areas where so little is growing that each cow needs 30+ acres of land (top-quality grassland can get close to 1 acre per cow, but such land ¿typically/always? needs care by the farmer, such as the use of fertilizer)
Larger pastures per cow means more fence per cow.
One dairy we visited had robotic milk machines running all night. The cows return as needed and the cups automatically find the tests, check for disease, track milk volume and so on.
Obviously people have views on dairy but the tech was very cool to see up close. The dairy family could look up on their phone, any particular cow and get info on milk volume and timings.
When I raised cows all I had to do was yell "FOOOOOOD!" across the pasture and they came running.
I see some major drawbacks for things like this:
1. Because of the way cows behavior naturally they will get their neck band caught on something. Extrication can become dire and stressful. A few deaths and a system like this is simply not worth it.
2. These will be roughed up -- like a lot. Cows like to play in water and rub on things. If this company doesn't last you'll be SOL quick enough that your initial investment won't pay off (saying nothing of software dependencies...)
3. The point of interacting with cows manually is to see her. Even in herds in the 1000s someone familiar with the herd will recognize cows (especially past problem ones) and can also see issues before they become a risk for her.
Cows are very well adjusted to being taken care of by humans. Everytime you back off the human component from herd management the domesticated cow will be less cared for.
Add to that, my wife can gather and guide the entire herd with a bucket full of cubes, or every even random junk in a pinch to get them to go anywhere she wants whenever she wants.
5c/month/cow sounds more reasonable. Which in turn means your hardware needs to cost only a couple of dollars and last many many years.
In general, the cows are more driven to the robotic milkers by the feed they recieve while in the machine, rather than the feeling of relief (these systems generally provide an alert of cows being lazy...ones that haven't been milked in 10+ hours and need a shove), however these systems _do_ provide both improved health and improved productivity.
Even in experienced dairy herds, handling the animals and shoving them all to the robot at the same time causes stress. Having these machines running constantly (1 machine can handle a herd of ~50) lets cows regulate their own pattern, which can benefit herd dynamics as well (more timid animals can self regulate to a quieter period away from pushier animals). Farms can easily see 10-20% improvement on milk yield.
It also has the benefit that animals can go more or less often...you may have some animals who are comfortable with 3 visits a day, some comfortable at 4 (or even 5 if they have really high yield).
When he made a back entrance, he just painted white lines instead of the more expensive pipe setup. He'd learned from neighboring ranches that once the cows understand the pipes, they won't walk across the painted lines. And, I don't quite know how, but new cows learn from the existing herd not to try the white lines.
A group of monkeys were put in a room with a ladder leading to a banana. When a monkey touches the banana, sprinklers turn on and soak the room. The monkeys quickly learnt to ignore the banana to avoid getting wet, and even physically stopped newly introduced monkeys (who were unaware of the sprinklers) from climbing the ladder.
The entire group was eventually replaced one by one. The replacement group had never seen the consequence of climbing the ladder, but policed eachother as well as any new members from eating the banana.
[1] https://workingoutloud.com/blog/the-five-monkeys-experiment-...
[1] http://www.throwcase.com/2014/12/21/that-five-monkeys-and-a-...
They never even say what sort of Monkey it is.
Yes, exactly, a.k.a. Cattle Grid [0]. They are heavily used in the UK in National Parks where there are free-ranging livestock (horses, cattle, etc). There is one just a mile from where I live, at the edge of the New Forest.
> but your car would do just fine.
If only the tourists realised this! Locals take them at speed and you just shoot across them and the speed evens out the bumpiness. Tourists take them slow which makes them much more noisy and bumpy. That said if you try to turn on them (e.g. if you haven't straightened up from a junction) they can cause a significant skid risk, especially when they are wet.
Finally, many of the local ones have little escape ramps for small animals (e.g. hedgehogs) that fall in and then would otherwise get trapped in the pit below the pipes.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle_grid
There are some problems with the technology. Temple Grandin visited us and said she didn't like the idea of people actually visiting the cows less. Collar worn sensors can't tell if a cow has a rock in its hoof or detect all diseases. With less human observation the cows may suffer more. I've seen one cow start chewing on another cows collar to help it try to get it off. GPS antenna have to stay facing skyward and can be blocked by trees. Some of the later research switched to ear tags instead of collars because they are less of an impedance and less likely to get damaged by the cows. It's more difficult to get everything you need into an ear tag though. There have been several attempts to start companies based on the technology, all of which failed so far. Halter appears to be the latest.
We stopped doing research when a prison company approached us with an interest in putting the collars on prisoners.
Jesus, that is terrifying.
“Some prisoners are more strong-willed than others and will continue going no matter shock or sounds”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j00AULJLCNo
So this is one of the first uses of a microprocessor. To paraphrase Jaron Lanier, calling tracking collars "smart" is an insult to human intelligence.
[edit]Location is a thing they can't do by the looks of it. Guess a GPS signal is weak if being recieved in the cow.
[1] https://smaxtec.com/
[1] https://www.nedap-livestockmanagement.com/dairy-farming/solu... [2] https://www.nedap-livestockmanagement.com/dairy-farming/solu...