One of the reasons is overlap. Your hands do occasionally hit keys on the other side. You want a pair of 2/3 keyboards, rather than 1/2 keyboards. You /especially/ want a lot of the "special" keys on both sides.
Another is key action. You want proper mechanical keys.
A third is mounting. That's a problem which hasn't really been figured out. The middle hinge or fixed setup is definitely sub-ideal. Two pieces are a bit clunky. Armchair mounts are $$$.
For me, I also like having a trackpoint. I'm not saying that's common, but a lot of people want /some/ oddball feature like that. For one person, it might be lighted keys. For another, swapped capslock. Etc.
And then there's the mass of people who don't care about keyboard and buy the cheapest possible model. Split keyboards are $$$.
On the whole, the concept is good in abstract, but all models I've used have had one fatal flaw or another.
I don‘t mind it. 99% of my time spent typing happens at my own desk(s) and the few times I use someone else’s keyboard don‘t justify compromising on comfort with my own setup.
A big part of what makes it hard for me to use a normal keyboard now, isn‘t so much the physical shape, but the programmability and additional modifier keys offered by the UHK, both of which I use a lot.
I'm using UHK for almost a year and can share with my experience.
It really depends on a keyboard - if it is similar to regular one or not. The UHK is pretty similar to regular keyboard - keys are staggered (not ortholinear), there are no additional thumb keys which are also not available on a regular laptop keyboard. After a year with UHK I'm still able to jump between laptop and UHK when needed. Somehow muscle memory "detects" when my hands are on UHK and I start using additional shortcuts which are not available on laptop.
I use a Kinesis Advantage, which is a split ortholinear design with the keys in bowls and thumb clusters, just like the Dactyl. I have no issues switching between that and normal keyboards.
I almost always use a split keyboard when I'm able to set up a stationary environment. But I love to go mobile: coffee shops, beaches, couch, bar counters. I never forget how to use a normal keyboard, nor do I lose any speed. That might be the trick, maybe you need to switch between the two occasionally.
I have this crazy plan to create a harness where the two keyboard halves hang on the sides of your body (think sitting or standing with your arms naturally hanging down - the keyboards will be positioned under your palms).
But I'm still not sure if it would be too cyborg-y enough to use in public...
HAHA! Could be just sewn into your pants. Then you could just walk around the hood wearing some AR goggles while you work. Doesn't solve the tendency for your arms to swing in the opposite direction of you legs though.
I've had the exact same idea. I would love to not be constrained to having to sit down infront of a screen. My dream setup would be a projector-screen on the wall and being able to walk freely around while coding.
I’ve been using an Atreus split ortholinear keyboard with the Colemak layout for more than a year now, and I have no difficulty switching back to a standard Qwerty staggered keyboard when I use my laptop or someone else’s computer.
Yeah funnily enough I found something similar when my normal Mac keyboard died and I had to use a old dell one. Despite 10 years of Mac usage my subconscious felt the Dell keyboard, remembered my windows usage and started using ctrl instead of cmd automatically!
How did you find switching to Atreus& colemak? I was thinking of doing something similar and going to Corne/Colemak...
I think it took about two months before I was no longer tempted to switch back to Qwerty to get my speed back (my original keyboard layout had a toggle). I don’t recall any issues with switching keyboards, just layouts.
I use an Ergodox EZ for most of my typing, and don't really notice any major problems adjusting back to a standard keyboard on the odd occasion I find myself using a laptop keyboard instead. The only exception to that is for the first half hour or so I'll try holding caps-lock to get control, and just get escape being held instead.
I've been doing most of my typing on an Ergodox for years and while switching to a "normal" keyboard feels clunky and a bit awkward I can still type reasonably well on those. I guess it just becomes a lot more obvious how un-ergonomic those are (especially for the left hand in my experience). Having to bend your hand in weird ways to hit the modifiers feels odd when you're used to have them fall naturally below your fingers.
I've been using an Ergodox EZ for a lot of professional work for a few years now, but since I'm bouncing between that and laptop keyboards regularly, I haven't found any issues switching between layouts. I do occasionally try to use some custom-mapped ergodox keys the wrong way on a laptop keyboard, but it's a momentary embarrassment and not a thing that impedes my work.
My desktop has a split keyboard and I switch between that and the laptop's normal one pretty effortlessly. Even all the shortcuts just come.
However, after not using my Das keyboard for a few weeks, I found that I couldn't type with it at all any more. I realized later that that's because the distance between the keys is smaller, so after I realized that and compensated, it became easier to type there. I never use it, though, so I haven't put in any effort.
I don't find it hard to go back (which I do if I use just my laptop). I do find it reminds me of the weird angle laptop keyboards force my shoulders and wrists into.
I've been on an ortho (Let's Split) and a vertical staggered board (Iris) for a few years now. The Iris is stuck in my locked office that we can't go back into for the foreseeable future so I'm on the Let's Split (with pedals!) at home. Honestly I think I still type faster on a Macbook Pro keyboard, and that's the one that everyone hates. I'm plenty fast on the ones I built myself, but still just fine on that one. The big thing is that I will sometimes reach for a layer combo that isn't there on the MBP. It's very rare, since I think the staggered layout mostly hits my muscle memory preventing that, but it can happen that I'll almost hit a nonexistent chord on it. Never actually typed them out that I can remember though.
Now I've only used one split keyboard and only for about three years. The Ergodox Ez. And I think it combats every aspect you've pointed out, except the part about it being expensive.
However, put that into perspective and it feels like this keyboard will outlive me. I'll probably get another one for home use when I can go back to the office...
1. An ortho keyboard, e.g. crkbd fixes this. This made me finally touch-type after 20 years of using keyboards.
2. Yes :)
3. You do have great choice between splitting and tenting and wrist rests.
4. The keyboard in question has trackpoint, trackball, and trackpad accessories.
Bottom line is that once you enter the realm of unconventional keyboards, you will want a very custom one. You are right in that. This one is quite customizable, but there is always something you want different (a.k.a. endgame is a lie).
A comment above mentions that the benefits of an ortho board are not worth the learning curve of typing on one. Would you mind addressing the benefits you've found as somebody who is endorsing them?
The curve is indeed steep! I had to force myself to only use the ortho keeb for a week or two (resist using the laptop keyboard). Since then I'm sailing ortho only, so much that I sold some very expensive staggered keyboard, because I know I will not use staggered anymore if I can.
The benefits were obvious immediately, even while not touch-typing yet. Every key is assigned to a finger without ambiguity. Except for some shortcut combinations, but even then it feels clear.
You use your pinky more which I think is good (I also play the guitar).
The number one advantage is that my hand is never lost anymore. With staggered, every other word or command makes my hand "float" somewhere away from the "home row/keys", with a subsequent mistype or look-down. This does not happen anymore.
>One of the reasons is overlap. Your hands do occasionally hit keys on the other side.
When I switched to a split keyboard I did have this problem at first (with the B and 6 keys in particular on a QWERTY layout) but it took me a week to relearn that. In particular if you use an ortholinear layout on each side there's really no reason to go fishing for keys with the wrong hand.
This in turn means that you can add new keys in the middle that are easy to reach, addressing your 2nd point since it lets you have more "special keys" in the middle.
>Another is key action. You want proper mechanical keys.
That's orthogonal. I like mechanical switches because there's a lot of variety to chose from and they're easy to replace if one goes wrong (a strong advantage on an expensive ergo keyboard that you don't want to replace because of a broken switch) but there are very decent membrane keyboard out there. It's really a matter of taste in the end. After all some people even like those low profile keyboards like the Apple ones that I personally find horrible to type on...
>For me, I also like having a trackpoint. I'm not saying that's common, but a lot of people want /some/ oddball feature like that. For one person, it might be lighted keys. For another, swapped capslock. Etc.
But you're moving the goalpost completely here. It's fine if you like trackpoints but you can't call keyboards "horrible" if they don't support your niche dream build. I don't care for trackpoints personally and it'd probably annoy me to have one on the middle of my keyboard.
>For one person, it might be lighted keys. For another, swapped capslock. Etc.
RGB lighting is fairly standard these days, and swapped capslock is normally easy to achieve either by reconfiguring the keyboard or, if not possible, the OS.
>And then there's the mass of people who don't care about keyboard and buy the cheapest possible model. Split keyboards are $$$.
That is true, ergo keyboards can be very expensive. That being said for the average HNer it's probably still worth it, after all we spend most of our days typing on keyboards, having to shell ~$300 to get a keyboard that will last us for years and improve our comfort is a no-brainer, at least for me.
I've been using an ergodox for years and while it does cost a lot it checks all of your points besides the overlap (which I think is a bad idea) and the trackpoint. It uses QMK under the hood so you can reconfigure it any way you want.
And that's not the only one either, you have the dactyl, the manuform, the moonlander and many others. It's not 2009 anymore, custom keyboards are more accessible than ever (if you have the money for them...)
My goalposts are "a keyboard which works for me." That's where they were, and that's where they will be.
If I give up a few things I like about my existing keyboard to get what you like about your keyboard, that's a bad deal. I think that's true for most people.
The type of mechanical keys on my keyboards really reduce the amount of strain on my wrist relative to membrane keyboards. It's not just a matter of taste. There's much less of a bump on the bottom if the key can continue moving after the keystroke is triggered. Membrane keyboards can do a little bit of that, but not nearly as well.
Trackpoint, implemented well, means I can do casual mousing (e.g. switching focus) without moving my hands to the mouse. That reduces shoulder strain.
You're welcome to call things I like "a bad idea," and I could do the reverse just as well, but at the end of the day, I ain't buying. I know what works for me, and I haven't found an "ergo" keyboard which does.
I think it's you use of "horrible" that bothered me. I can understand being disappointed that a split keyboard doesn't have a trackpoint, but in no way does that make it "horrible" IMO.
I was responding to: "I am puzzled why there aren't more split keyboards on the market, they are such a good idea."
I would argue, for all the reasons I gave, most are horrible for most people. That's the context. You have to read in context. That doesn't mean they won't work for you. Most people want $5 keyboards. That's followed by a long tail of oddball keyboards, of which ergo are one breed.
Most of the keyboards I use would be horrible for most people too. But they work for me.
Hell you can get a kit for a Let's Split for probably under $125 if you hit used markets for the switches and caps.
The kit for everything but switches and caps is $54.99 [1]
I have an Ergodox EZ that I've used for about 4 months now, and it definitely took some time getting used to. I dropped from about 90 wpm to below 40 in the first few days, but now I'm back up to over 80, with fewer mistakes on average - I guess I'm slower at correcting them, so I try to type more accurately.
Previously I was used to typing some of the letters on the edges with the "wrong" hand (e.g. typing Y with my left hand) so I mapped an Y onto both halves, but eventually I got rid of that mapping.
I also had to gradually make many other small adjustments to the layout (which is thankfully really easy), because while you can adapt to typing of the letters fairly quickly, keyboard shortcuts and function keys are another matter (especially if you were used to using the function key row with Ctrl/Alt/Shift modifiers).
Having your arms naturally apart is pretty comfortable though, and I also like how cool it looks with the blank keycaps and the metal legs.
If anything, I had bigger issues with a MacBook keyboard, due to the missing Home/End keys, which I use all the time for selecting code (e.g End followed by a Shift+Home or vice versa to select a row, or using Shift+PageUp/PageDown plus arrows to select a block, are very ingrained in my muscle memory).
Right now I do not care about my wpm, it's at least as fast as I can think.
What I do care about is the ergonomics and the customizability, where the Ergodox Ez excels. I don't ever need to stretch out far or in any weird way anymore. Heck, most of the time I don't need to stretch out for my mouse anymore.
I’ve been using the Kinesys Freestyle + Apple trackpad since covid
I discovered I was using the wrong hand for the & key and that took some time getting used to - I do wish some keys on the middle rows were available on both sides
>One of the reasons is overlap. Your hands do occasionally
>hit keys on the other side.
That has been my biggest re-learning curve - but with only the 6/7 numeric keys (which, apparently I use often) - the one thing that I would have loved with the Kinesis RGB Edge, would have been a dedicated number pad on the right-side.
>Another is key action. You want proper mechanical keys.
Kinesis RGB Edge allows you to choose which "cherry mx" mechanical keys you get when ordering.
(I sound like a shill - but, I am very satisfied after a month of ownership - pricey, yes - but well worth it)
> Kinesis Freestyle Pro has Cherry mx brown or silent red and shaves a little money compared to the RGB version
I actually have both keyboards and they're pretty similar.
A trick here though, the RGB aka "gaming" version of the Freestyle includes wrist rests, which are $15 extra in the "Freestyle Pro," so the cost difference isn't as much as it seems. Neither includes the nifty tenting stands. You probably will want both of those accessories, so keep that in mind when pricing.
The Freestyle Pro also puts the ESC and FN keys in weird spots. You can remap them, but it's kind of annoying to move the caps around (there's also no "normal" size esc key cap to use...).
All in all, it's probably worth just getting the RGB, even if you don't care about the RGB feature.
I hadn't noticed that the esc key is moved which is kind of interesting. I actually decided that RGB would attract too much attention for me: One of my office mates is a 5-year-old right now, and I didn't want to distract from online kindergarten class too much.
> I actually decided that RGB would attract too much attention for me: One of my office mates is a 5-year-old right now, and I didn't want to distract from online kindergarten class too much.
I also avoided the RGB for this reason (at work, where I have the pro) - but when I got my own RGB (for home), I learned that the LEDs are just as customizable as the keys, and are only as distracting as you wish them to be :)
> One of the reasons is overlap. Your hands do occasionally hit keys on the other side. You want a pair of 2/3 keyboards, rather than 1/2 keyboards. You /especially/ want a lot of the "special" keys on both sides.
Why stop at 2/3? Apple Magic Keyboards are compact enough that for many people with reasonably wide shoulders they could just use two of those at once.
A setup with an Apple Magic Trackpad in the middle, two Magic Keyboards on the sides, and a mouse farther to the side might be quite reasonable.
I like that it allows me to open my chest a bit. I keep the two halves pretty far apart. It's genuinely made a difference in terms of shoulder and back pain.
It's definitely a pain to re-learn how to type. I type quickly in general (as I'm sure most here do), and I'm used to the split layout now, but I was painfully slow for the first few weeks.
But there are? A lot go a bit into the DIY territory but you can buy most of them pre assembled as well. With the QMK firmware you can customize everything you want about them.
I use a Kinesis Advantage and it's great (not quite split, but close). I'll look into getting an actual split keyboard that's more portable. The Kinesis is massive and terrible for travel.
You can easily switch between Kinesis key placement and regular keyboards. It's like training your brain to be multilingual.
Try Emacs keybindings on a keyboard that has modifier keys easily accessible for your right and left thumbs. Emacs keybindings didn't make any sense to me till I tried them on a split keyboard.
The Advantage (I have the Advantage 2) is simply excellent. It took me about an entire year to fully adapt to it (this is with a very long tail, I was very productive within a few weeks, but 100% adaption took that long). I also type far faster and more accurately on it than on any other keyboard. I think it's the best keyboard available and you'd have to claw it out of my cold dead hands to take it from me.
I tried the Ergodox some others have mentioned in this thread but didn't like the modifier key placements. I've also found that I can type normally (which is reasonably quickly but not at the demonic speeds a few seem capable of) on normal or laptop keyboards, too.
Usually I find myself restricted by the speed of thought rather than speed of keyboard.
I use the Microsoft Bluetooth Mobile Keyboard 6000 [0] for portability. It lays over my laptop keyboard without changing the profile significantly, and it fits into any bag virtually unnoticeably. It's honestly one of my favorite non-mechanical keyboards. The trouble is finding one at a reasonable price, which is why I limit its use to while on laptop-only.
I have a cloud nine split mechanical keyboard. I really enjoy it. It is the closest I’ve found to the Microsoft Ergo 4000. I use it primarily for working on my MacBook.
Pros: very similar to ergo 4000. No immediate drop in typing speed like with an ergo dox ez.
Cons: easy to workaround: left alt is too left due the spacebar and the strange dial button in the middle. I ignore the dial and mapped the cmd key to ctrl and ctrl to capslock.
Oooh! This might be the one! I've been looking for a replacement for when my old mid-00s MS Naturals finally die, and this might be it. It even has a number pad, which none of these other ergo keyboards do. Might go order one of these right now...
I'm borrowing one of these right now, but I can barely use it because the layout is so different than what I'm accustomed to. I haven't done much research on it - do you know what the reasoning behind the layout is? It wouldn't be a huge deal except that the keycaps are all custom shapes, and I guess I'm not willing to learn a new layout without labeled keys.
I used the microsoft natural keyboard for years and now the kinesis freestyle. I don’t know why split keyboards aren’t more popular. Proper ergonomics are important or your career could be interrupted due to RSI.
I started out using Microsoft Natural keyboards in the 90s. Ergonomic pain using straight keyboards at work brought me back to them in the 2010s. The Sculpt (wireless) is really wonderful.
Favorite keyboard ever for me. (<-- that sentence, and this one, typed on a Sculpt. Thank you, unknown engineers.)
I do love the sculpt but they tend to die within a couple of years. I went through two of them before switching to something more durable. The build quality is just bad - many times my computer was behaving weirdly, traced to one of the function keys being stuck down (this also manifested as the keyboard eating new batteries within a couple of days).
This is my exact thought. I love it, but I'm about to retire my second one. It's almost worth just paying the price for a new one every couple of years though. I have two of the older Microsoft Natural keyboards from decades ago that I periodically switch to and they will probably last another 20 years.
I've got two MS Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000s in my cupboard. I'm currently on a Sculpt, but much preferred the 4000s. Unfortunately I uncovered their weakness - humidity.
I work from home with evaporative cooling over summer.
The first unit lasted a few years, but died on a humid summer day. Next one only lasted 12 months, again dying on a humid summer day.
First unit is irrecoverably dead. The second would come back to life after pulling it apart and cleaning with isopropyl alcohol, then die again a few days later (during summer). Issue is that the humidity seems to short the key matrix. If not careful it makes for some awkward typing mistakes.
The Sculpt seems a bit more resilient to humidity.
Yes, the MS Naturals absolutely dissolve when exposed to water. I've destroyed at least a half-dozen over my lifetime by spilling small amounts of water on them. Only takes one drop to destroy some keys. Just after I finished high school, in the mid-2000s, I stocked up and bought four of them. Two of them have been wrecked since then, but the other two are still going strong. Still haven't seen a keyboard that I want to replace them with, but at some point, these will give up the ghost and I'll have to find something new to try.
I've been using Microsoft Natural keyboards for 20 years now.
I used to suffer terribly with RSI from years of typing on crappy keyboards, with bad posture and not enough breaks.
The Microsoft Natural keyboard has been good to me - I haven't had RSI twinges for 10 years or so now!
I'm typing this on a Microsoft Natural Keyboard Pro which Wikipedia says was introduced in June 1999 - round about the time I got it. I wish it wasn't white as it really shows the dirt, but the media buttons are the best!
I've got two and I switched to the backup recently as my main one got really dirty and I haven't had time to clean it.
The MS Natural 4000 is very good too - I had one of those at work for over 10 years. I did wear the legends off but hey - who needs to see what key you are pressing anyway! Just don't press F-lock by accident as you'll be wondering for ages why your function keys aren't working.
I like the front stand of the 4000 to put the keyboard up a bit at the front. It is very good for encouraging good posture.
(The other thing I did to help with RSI is switch hands with the mouse. It took quite a long time to get used to using the mouse with the left hand but it really made a difference as my right wrist was worse than my left wrist. I'm now ambidextrous with the mouse - the only thing I can't do is draw with the mouse with my left hand!)
I've been using split keyboard my entire career. Started to get pain in my hands during my internships so I bought an MS Ergo keyboard and never looked back.
Used the sculpt for a while which I adore but I had to go back to MS's wired keyboard because the dang thing just doesn't want to stay connected to my Mac.
I would love a reasonably priced keyboard that was the ms natural keyboard with mechanical switches. (I know people have hacked together their own but I'm not that committed to the keyboard shape.)
There's way too much emphasis on the mechanical switches among the community.
I got infatuated with mechanical keyboards with Cherry MX switches about 10-12 years ago and gave myself RSI from using them.
I kept trying different ones assuming it was the design of the keyboard.. there was so much non-scientific belief that mechanical switches are better for RSI that I had a huge blind spot. I went through Das Keyboard, Kinesis, Truly Ergonomic, and a bunch of others and it never would go away.
When I finally ditched the mechanical switches it went away... the MS keyboards seem to be the cheapest/easiest to get that have nice non-mechanical switches and work for me.
No problems for years now using the MS ones.
The boutique manufacturers selling mechanical switch keyboards market them as better for RSI without much proof meanwhile for some of us the longer travel on those switches might actually be the cause.
I hated that I couldn't find a good, split, long travel (mechanical) keyboard so I built my own. It was a fun, if expensive, learning experience. I use it every day (right now even) so it's worth it.
I wish there was something readily available like the Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 but with mechanical keys. Change the spacebar into two pieces to avoid the need for custom keycaps if you like. Most/all of these fancy split keyboards are missing something, like this Ultimate Hacking Keyboard has no numpad or multimedia keys.
I'm currently using a Varmillo 110% mechanical keyboard that has all the fancy keys (music/mail/calculator/My Computer keys, numpad, and multimedia keys on Fn-pressing the F keys). But it's not ergonomic; there's no curve, wrist rest, or option for a negative tilt.
A lot of mechanical keyboard options are more for show than practicality, which is a bit sad considering mechanical keys are nicer to type on.
Elsewhere in the discussion is mention of the C989 Ergo, which seems to be the closest mass-produced, mechanical keyboard to the MS Natural: https://c9ergo.com/
I like Topre's switch (actually it's non-contact switch so its feeling is comes from rubber dome) than mechanical but there's no split keyboard available. I wish they or other manufacturers make it.
I just learned about this last night, and was really considering it. One thing that I wasn't sure about is the size-- I already love the ergodox I've been using for the last 6 years, and reddit says the moonlander is much smaller feeling.
Huh, smaller could be better. I have huge hands but do not utlize a lot of keys on the Ez: I basically use home row and the big buttons in the thumb cluster ...
If you have smaller hands, consider a Kyria. I use an Ergodox EZ and while I'm generally happy with it, it's quite difficult for my thumbs to reach all but the first key in the thumb cluster.
I've had an Ez for years and I'm typing this on my brand new Moonlander. I think it's nice, but I don't think it's that much of an upgrade over the Ez. The new thumb cluster is a bit better than the EZ IMO, but it's not a complete win because of the hinge that creates a pretty wide gap between the main board and the thumb cluster.
I don't regret my purchase but if I were you I'd wait for something a bit more consequential, maybe a Moonlander Mk2. Or a more drastically different keyboard, like a manuform or a kyria for instance.
I was going to buy an EZ myself but went with the Moonlander because of the smaller size as it felt counter productive to have a split keyboard for ergonomics but have my hands hurt because they keep stretching to reach the thumb cluster.
I've loved learning how to use ortho keyboards. They open your brain to new text editing possibilities. Just like how learning Spanish teaches you about English and learning new programming languages teaches you about what's possible with code. They improved my typing accuracy and got rid of my right pinky pain too. I agree that they're not for everyone.
Can't speak for OP, but I've found that staggered layouts are rather non-standardized when it comes to the severity of the slant. As a consequence, my muscle memory is all over the place when touch typing, especially for the third row (ZXCVBN).
Ortholinears, of course, are all exactly the same, which lets me type with more confidence. I don't type any faster, but I do suffer fewer typos for words that require multiple row switches.
Yeah there, in my experience, keyboards can come with generally two different layouts for the bottom alpha row, it's a slight move, only about half a unit (where a unit is the width of one key), but it's significant.
Emacs keybindings like Control-x Control-c don't work for me on regular keyboards. They work just fine for me on ortho keyboards with an easily accessible control key for my right thumb.
Ortho keyboards got me in the habit on using modifier keys on the opposite side of the keyboard from the shortcut key. On a regular keyboard, I'll type Command + c with my left thumb / left index finger with an unergonmic movement. On an ortho keyboard, I use my right thumb + left middle finger for the same motion.
For Vim, I started using Control + c to escape with ortho keyboards, which keeps me on the home row.
None of these are huge productivity gains. But a fun way to shock your brain and to stay sharp.
What I noticed is that people who are really good at (properly) touch typing on a staggered keyboard have more difficulties adapting to a linear one.
In my example, I type around 80 wpm on a regular keyboard, but I've never learned and used the proper key->finger assignment - I just type how I adapted over the years. So for me there was no trouble switching to proper technique on an ortholinear. I'm not yet nearly as fast, but it feels like it's 3-4 times easier to type (ie. less finger movement).
I don't know, I never learned proper touch typing, but I went from 100 WPM to 80 when I learned to touch type on the ortho keyboard. You're right that there's less movement, but I find it a bit less... convenient.
i'm definitely not as fast as i used to be (somewhere around 120 wpm as a non-touch-typist) after 2 years of typing on an ortholinear keyboard, but I don't really mind. I'm much more comfortable and my fingers don't hurt as much.
I went from ~110 pb, 100 average (on common word typing tests) on row-staggered QWERTY with an untrained hunt-and-peck to ~105 pb, 100 average (on common word typing tests) with Dvorak layout on an ortholinear keyboard.
I'd already spent the time to learn Dvorak layout on row-staggered keyboards. Having had that training, picking up an ortho was straightforward. (Although my average wpm on typing tests after picking up the board would've been ~90).
I suspect if all your fingers 'know' is where the keys are (rather than following discipline of 'column per finger'), then adjusting to ortholinear would be harder.
Agreed, it didn't take long for me to learn to use the Advantage. But before that I had tried it a few times and got frustrated that I wasn't immediately able to use it. I'm glad I finally took the time though, because I love this keyboard.
I think the advantage is way easier to use and way more comfortable than any of it's 'flat clones'. I've been on one advantage or another for about 20 years. I picked up a used ergodox awhile back because they look kinda cool and I wanted to try out a split. Resold it only a couple of weeks later because it's 'just worse' than an advantage. You hands need to be huge (and mine are) and it still feels like you are reaching all the time. The thumb cluster is way less comfortable.
Since I printed/wired myself a dactyl. Great little kb.
It takes a few weeks to retrain muscle memory, to be sure, but I've found that once you get used to it, you actually make fewer typos because your fingers are moving in a more predictable/logical up and down pattern.
Disagree whole heartedly. The benefits of ortho is minor compared to the split, but it’s still there. And if you’re already willing to buy an expensive split mechanical keyboard, what’s the drawback?
Counter anecdote; I switched to split ortho a couple weeks ago and it didn't take much more than a week of consistently using only the new keyboard to get back up to normal speeds. The ortho seems to have made it much easier for me to touch type, as a result of which I now make fewer errors and generally barely ever consciously think about the actual action of typing.
My typing speed has increased from 65 wpm to 80 wpm after switching to a split ortho keyboard. Took just a couple of weeks to get back to my old speed.
Non-split ortho is silly, but with split layouts I find them vastly more comfortable, especially for the left hand.
The only thing I had to relearn were the keys on the bottom alpha row on the left side, because on a regular keyboard I would tend to offset them by one column (i.e. type C with the index, X with the middle finger etc...) but with an ortho I didn't need to anymore. And the only reason I needed to offset them in the first place is because standard keyboards have such a bad layout for the left hand.
The trackball thumb module is a great idea - being able to mouse without moving my right hand off the keyboard would be ideal (you can buy an actual mouse to use for FPS games if you want that). For anyone who is seeing this and thinking they need to upgrade though, know that you really don't have to spend $300 to get a good-quality ergonomic keyboard. The Goldtouch GTN-0099 can be found in like-new condition for $60 on ebay. The Kinesis Freestyle2 is around $100-130. Neither of these have mechanical keyswitches, but I've had a mechanical keyboard before and can tell you the tactile novelty wears off within a couple of weeks. High-quality non-mechanical keyswitches are just dandy these days. So do question whether you really need to plunk down $200 extra for mechanical.
Separately, if you care about ergonomics enough to be interested in your keyboard, don't neglect your mouse - usually a much worse culprit for wrist issues. I recently switched from a vertical-style ergonomic mouse to a trackball and it's enough of a difference to make me a zealot! I bought the Kensington vertical model with a thumb trackball. My small remaining wrist issues are no more.
I own a Kinesis Freestyle2. It's collecting dust because I've found the keyboard layout suboptimal. My thumbs would awkwardly reach inwards for the modifier keys.
Apple keyboards seem to have a different layout where the command key is lined up with the gap between X|C. Being a half key off took me a little getting used to.
Regarding mouse usage, the UHK has a mouse keys layer by default and personally I have stopped using a mouse entirely. I did not especially try to drop my mouse, but over time I noticed I didn't reach for it anymore. I can now use the mouse keys for everything, though I don't do any drawing on the computer regularly and I have a mouse for gaming. In fact I don't know if I'll make much use of the trackpoint module when it arrives, but let's see. :)
If you drew regularly you'd have a drawing tablet and a stylus, anyway. Mice are not good for that.
(I am an artist and my Wacom drawing tablet has almost completely replaced a mouse for me, the only time I plug one in is when I want to play a game that requires me to move its view by pushing the mouse cursor against the screen's edge.)
Especially for routine computer use, I just swap my mouse to the other side of the keyboard and use my non-dominant hand. It takes a bit of getting used to, but I can mouse with either hand pretty seamlessly unless I'm gaming.
It really helps with wrist issues. I also prefer a split keyboard.
I have a Magic Trackpad that is in a slightly angled iPhone holder so it "hovers" just in front and slightly over my keyboard. I can get to it without my hands leaving the keyboard (and in general the taps and glides of the trackpad are much better for my RSI).
Do you have a photo of this? Been thinking about a similar idea, but haven’t purchased a Magic Trackpad to try it yet. I am curious how the phone holder is angled.
I also like trackballs although I prefer Logitech's trackman thumb trackball.
I also gave the Kensinton Expert a try but I really disliked it. For one I think I just prefer thumb trackballs, but beyond that I found the build quality really shoddy for that price. In particular the scroll ring is wobbly and rattles quite a lot on my model, it feels very cheap and is unpleasant to use.
i really love the elecom huge, due to the fact that it has a lot of customizable buttons. the only downside is the scroll wheel that is not the best in the business and the position is unconfortable at first. but the trackballs for a long period usage are far superior in my opinion
> (...) I've had a mechanical keyboard before and can tell you the tactile novelty wears off within a couple of weeks.
I'm not sure I follow your reasoning. As a mechanical keyboard user, "the tactical novelty" doesn't even register in the "pros" column. As a professional software developer I use mechanical keyboards because they are far easier to clean and maintain, and are actually repairable and don't become trash just because a key happens to crap out.
Mechanical keyboard users I've known all became obsessed with them and never stayed with the same model for long, rendering their longevity irrelevant.
For _tactical_ use, I rely on my trusty model M, with metal base plate. For home defense, it is without equal. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The rest of time I greatly prefer the ergonomics of the old thinkpad keyboards w/ track-point, but the external ones are expensive and sucky, imo.
I also sometimes move my mouse to the left side of the keyboard so that I can have better, more symmetrical posture. I would really prefer to have a small external USB trackpoint that I could simply place beneath my spacebar, but sadly no one seems to sell this.
This person even hacked their own (https://github.com/feklee/usb-trackpoint), but I haven't found the time or motivation. I bet I'm not the only one who would pay a handsome margin -- business opportunity?
That UHK pointer module would solve my ergonomic problems better than mousing backwards, and might be worth the price by itself.
It's your own personal anectode and all. If you see plenty of people using the same el cheapo keyboard until it breaks apart from all the encusted breadcrumbs and hair and dust and microecosystems, I don't see what's hard to understand about how people who spend more on keyboards also do the same.
I see it like this: if there is anything you use more than a an hour a day, get a thing that feels good, is functional and makes you happy.
Just like different guitars play differently, just like different shoes feel differently, different keyboards feel differently too.
If you are fine with a non-mechanical one, no need to defend yourself. Some people like clicky mechanical keyboards, some like linear ones, some want a heavy touch, some a light touch, some don't feel any difference at all, etc.
A good keyboard will last you at least a decade, multiply these hours by that and even 200$ would be nearly next to nothing given the time you use it. Do you really need it? Probably not (unless you use it for ergonomics). But if you can afford it, why not.
People talk a big game about how durable these pricy mechanical keyboard are, how they can be repaired and last forever, etc. I don't think it works out that way. Looking through these comments you can see people with the Ergodox EZ asking whether they should "upgrade" to something slightly newer. Once you start chasing keyboarding perfection, the journey is endless. Minutae loom large; you're never quite satisfied. It's best to just buy something reasonable and learn to like it for what it is.
I will say the Kinesis Advantage2 people seem to be more or less permanently satisfied, though. So I am tempted.
Yep.. I bought a second hand Kinesis Advantage off ebay to "see if this would work for me". I used that one for almost 10 years and it was old when I got it. I had to use a usb adapter plugged into a ps/2 adapter into the original AT keyboard plug. Currently I have an advantage pro. Thinking about getting an advantage 2, but would only to get upgraded function keys.
After 3 years, I heartily recommend the Advantage2. Using it is simply more fun. I use mine with a trackpad sitting in the space between the two wells.
Creating those wells is, apparently, a tough engineering challenge, which is why so few commercially available keyboards have them, but they are what makes it so comfortable and effective. I consider the flat split keyboards to be pointless.
I'm overall very happy with my kinesis advantage, but there is something (subtle?) to be aware of: you tend to use your thumbs quite a bit to hit control/alt/return/space (especially with emacs), and after some time my thumb joints started hurting. Thumbonitis? :-)
Two 60% keyboards side-by-side, no gap between them. My forearms stay parallel and my wrists straight. It is also good to confuse people into thinking you have the especialy hability of typing in two keyboards, when it is not much different than touch typing in a single keyboard. Also it's a good excuse to buy another mechanical keyboard.
If you happen to have a 4P4C crimping tool around, it's very easy to make a longer cable, which is what I did. If you don't, then at least I found it pretty difficult to find a 4P4C crossover cable in Finland. But it should be findable online.
Only one pair is required for a single-line telephone installation, and at least here in the US, most cheap 4P4C cables thus omit the second pair - especially now that landlines in general are so much a thing of the past. I don't know whether the UHK will work with a single-pair cable - I suppose it might, if it uses SPI or I2C or 1-Wire for signaling between the halves, but I'd definitely check the manual before just slapping any old phone cord in and expecting it to work.
I’ve had one of these for over a year now and couldn’t recommend it more dearly. Excellent build quality, powerful and intuitive customization software and just generally a nice atmosphere around the company.
The Ergodox EZ can come with Red switches (both silent or not). It's also got hotswappable switches which is pretty cool IMO, you can change your switches whenever you want without having to desolder or even unscrew anything.
I can really recommend this keyboard if you find the Ergodox layout comfortable, they're very well built.
I'm a long time MS Natural 4000 user. That said, I think the X-Bows Knight keyboard looks interesting. Thumb keys for enter, ctrl and shift. Still has function keys which a lot of these other keyboards don't (and some of us still use).
I've also gotten very use to the media and additional silver buttons along the top of the MS Natural 4000, which I've set as short-cuts for various things.
I almost need a separate little keypad that I can program before I give up the 4000.
Knight Plus comes with the detachable(you can move it to left or right) numpad. And X Bows keyboards support QMK[1]. So you can map any key to any other key or macros and add layout on top of it.
Yeah, I love my 4000, I bought 3 of them a few months back, when I started being concerned they would go EOL. Right now they're hard to find again, hopefully they'll do another production run.
These keyboards look interesting but how does "space" work on it and how long did it take you to learn the non-qwerty parts of the layout (like space, hyphen, brackets, and tilde)?
Every single key is completely configurable, so you can have space wherever you want (or in multiple places).
That said, it's pretty normal to put it under directly under the thumb, on the side you normally use for space.
I use an ErgoDash, essentially a flat version of the Dactyl Manuform, and have this layout [1]. Enter is under my right thumb, but if I hold down that key it becomes Ctrl. I could already touch-type, but it took a week or two of average use to get used to all the changes. Basic typing was quicker, but touch-typing `, [], = and the function keys took longer.
Generally space in under the right thumb, backspace the left. I've seen some people swap this around, but for my brain there is no way to reckon with that.
I primarily use a dactyl day to day, but that's just a split version (with pretty much the exact same layout) as my kinesis advantage.
That said, I like to play the occasional videogame and the advantage and dactyl just don't work well for that. So I keep a 65% board around on my desk to swap out. It has a split spacebar, left bs, right space... which means in every game ever I just rebind 'jump' to backspace :)
As others have pointed out, it's fully programmable so you can have whatever layout you want.
That being said, it took me about 3-4 weeks to get used to the keyboard to the point where I wasn't frustrated all the time and about 2 months to get back to my regular typing speed. One big benefit - I was developing carpal tunnel and about 6 weeks after switching to the dactyl, all pain was gone.
For me, space is under the natural resting place of my right thumb. Enter on the left. And then the closer on each is backspace on right, delete on left. As well as layer toggling. It didn't take me too long to get used to the locations of most keys, but tweaked it over time. My weird one is I have `~ where caps lock would traditionally be. I use it a lot for code blocks in slack and things like that. And it really screws me up on another keyboard now where its not there. And then the bottom 4 on each hand, I really don't use much, volume toggles, win key and stuff like that. I need to figure out what else to do with them.
Two of my "bottom four" are Ctrl+PageUp/Ctrl+PgDown. That's previous/next tab in web browsers, my terminal, IDE etc, and really useful when keyboarding and when mousing.
Yeah I went from a kinesis advantage to a dactyl (printed a manuform shell, wasn't for me) and couldn't be happier. I'd been on the advantage for 20 years or so though.
Worth noting that there are many different possible shells on the manuform. A handful of pre-generated ones, and you can tweak the scripts to generate the exact curves you want. I just ended up with the 5x6 myself.
I love mine, I built mine close to a year ago at this point, but it has really shined lately. I have a traditional KB for gaming still but all my typing is on this one. A second might be in order, but this one was built from spare parts, so will have to actually order stuff for another one. I just want to figure out getting a mouse on it like the linked one does. Then it would be perfect.
Myself, I have been using a Kinesis RGB Edge with the "lift-kit" for about a month.
Have never been a perfect, trained touch-typist - so there has been a learning curve, but it is worth it.
My wrists feel so much better, and I am almost back to full speed. (Previously, I would just use laptop KB's).
The only complaints... Not from me, but when I am on web meetings, I have to be on mute, because everyone finds the KB noise too loud when I am typing... Lastly, very expensive, but much like my Ergotron monitor arms, this will likely outlast generations of equipment it is currently used with.
I had a kinesis before they did the cool new upgrades with cherry switches and whatnot. I will probably buy one of those, now.
What's particularly great about them is that you can set them up vertically so that your wrists are completely neutral. Same concept as a vertical mouse, and similarly restrictive in its functioning.
Most people probably don't need this level of relief. Idk.
I've been using mine for about a year now. I love it. I'm not really an orthodox touch-typist so there were a few keystrokes that took some time for me to get the hang of. I'm pulling 100 WPM though so I must be doing something sort of right :)
The customization of both the RGB and the keys themselves as well as the ergonomics have been well worth it. I use a USB switch and use the keyboard for both Windows gaming and development on Mac.
One quirk of my typing style is that I use my right index finger for the space bar, so my left space bar effectively went unused when typing. I rebound the left space bar to the Command Key on my Mac profile so I can use my thumb for it like I would on a Mac keyboard.
I use it for gaming too. Sometimes I move the right side completely out of the way so I'm just using the left and my mouse.
I'm not saying these are all features exclusive to this particular keyboard. But a split keyboard was a great investment that I'd recommend.
> The only complaints... Not from me, but when I am on web meetings, I have to be on mute, because everyone finds the KB noise too loud when I am typing...
I was in a similar situation with my pok3r keyboard. I started to lower the microphone volume and people stopped complaining ymmv
One suggestion I can give you is to get a dynamic microphone. It won't pick up quite loud keyboards behind/below it (if it does, it'll sound like really soft switches).
I got the Freestyle Pro from them with Silent Red keys and have been happy with it. I was worried about the key noise since my office mate (who is also my wife) has complained that my chair is too loud. No complaints at all about the keyboard.
The Kinesis Gaming keyboard is my current go-to deck. The key layout is sane (nobody tried to nerf the "useless" ESC key), there are well-done macro and remapping features for light customization, and the LED lighting is actually something I appreciate for once (it's pretty).
Microsoft lost me in the 2000s with terrible key feel. I remember bouncing over to the company store for an Ergo 4000 and being incredibly disappointed; I could barely type on the thing. They continue to screw up (e.g., decent keyboards, with good feel and layout . . . but only bluetooth).
I have a couple of UHKs. They do not have an ESC key, something I hadn't internalized when I ordered them. I do not recommend them.
I currently use a Matias Pro. It has an Esc key, but the truth is I'd like Esc as close as possible. I've experimented with CapsLock as Esc but I prefer CapsLock to swap languages, which I also do often.
Ah, the troubles we go through for the perfect HID!
> when I am on web meetings, I have to be on mute, because everyone finds the KB noise too loud when I am typing
Have you looked into swapping out the switches? It looks like they aren't hot-swappable, but de-soldering switches isn't too difficult and there are a ton of amazing silent switches out right now. Check out Zealios for a great silent tactile switch.
I modded my Kinesis Edge with Holtite sockets to get hotswap capability.
I use Zilents on my daily driver. They're pretty quiet as far as mech switches go, but still a lot noisier than a standard laptop keyboard. No complaints so far.
It's too bad they don't offer them on the Edge, but if RGB lighting isn't essential they have the 'quiet red' switches available on the Freestyle Pro, which is basically the same model without the backlit keys.
I am on video calls between 3 and 10 hours every day. Krisp is where it's at, I've been promoting their product for free to hundreds of people since last year. Zero issues with mechanical keyboards and most typical noises. It doesn't work with loud sirens or kids, unfortunately, but it destroys any mech keyboard noise without a trace.
> It doesn't work with loud sirens or kids, unfortunately
What do you use for a microphone? I have a Shure SM57, bought to record guitar, that I have repurposed into my PC mic, and the reduction of background noise vs laptop/webcam mic is _enormous_. You can't hear my mechanical keyboard at all, and it's sitting about a foot from the mic. The SM57 isn't really a vocal mic, but it works great. I'm sure a more purpose built vocal mic would be even better.
If you are currently using a built-in mic then I think something like that in conjunction with a BG noise reducer would basically get you the rest of the way. You just need to figure out a configuration that works for you and keeps it (at least relatively) out of sight.
It also has the added benefit of hugely improving your audio quality.
Blue Yeti with their "Yeticaster" boom arm + shock mount. I tried feeding its audio back into my headphones with software (as I type this I realize I could've simply connected my headphones to the mic) to play with its settings, but the pick up patterns and gain level made a negligible difference to its mediocre performance at both sound quality and ability to not pick up background noise. My next mic will definitely be condenser/XLR, for now this is fine. I've neglected adding acoustic foam for a long time, I understand that can also help improve the sound.
The Kinesis Freestyle2 is great for me. The adjustability and feel work for my needs. Being able to prop up each side for a standing desk is very useful.
* using it in full vertical is hard because there's two columns of buttons on the left & extra buttons on the right side. i diy but there is a "Ascent" package for some keyboards for full verticle. less arm twisting as you type; it's amazing, keyboard not stellar for it though.
* the stock "split" cable at 18" is pretty skimpy. the used to be an XL cable but even it was not super long and i don't see it on their store right now. RSI is about changing your posture, & when i literally use two keyboards & can put them wherever, i find myself sometimes going into a "butterfly stroke" (from swimming, arms out) position for some variety. and even basic adjustment is pretty limited at 18".
I'm maintaining a gallery of split mechanical keyboards, including the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard.
Hopefully it's helpful for a quick overview of the options that exist. Many of these keyboards are DIY (available as a kit, or sometimes just a PCB and case plan), but some are available assembled.
A friend of mine is one of the nerdiest guys I know but has suffered from RSI most of his life. He exclusively uses DataHand keyboards (which he buys used and refurbishes or parts out). I notice you don't have a picture of those in your gallery. It's an interesting idea (having 5 switches per finger without moving your hand) but I'm more hopeful that chording will become the default.
I've added it (though as it's unavailable, it doesn't show up by default). I've also added the Lalboard (http://lalboard.com/), which is an open-source project to recreate it.
Yes, exactly right. If you are going to make the jump it's smart to do it all the way. Intermittent steps will help some people, but won't always solve the RSI problem fully.
I have used ergonomic keyboards for long time. Some have been passable, such as one or two models of Adesso and Microsoft keyboard. Nothing has offered the combination of qualities that the Goldtouch offers. Comfort, robustness, adjustability, cost.
What a great site, thanks. Really brings home how strange this corner of the market is. Every split keyboard with nice keyswitches has a different layout from every other, and most of them miss one or more of F keys, symmetrical meta keys, standard navigation cluster layout, volume buttons, and so on. Quite extraordinary, considering how much this type of device relies on muscle memory to work. It's like their designers want the device to be less useful, not more!
Particularly annoying when there's such a wide range of non-split keyboards with nice keyswitches. You've got all the bizarre layouts you can eat, but you still get the option of a more standard one too.
I wish people would just copy the MS Natural Ergonomic 4000, but with better keyswitches.
People tend to use layers to get at extra keys like F keys, volume keys, etc. I think it goes too far when they omit the number row, but honestly I mostly type numbers in a numpad layer, so I see the appeal. Basically, people see pressing two keys at once as less work than moving their hand off of home row, and being one of those people myself, I think it's the right thing. I fear that the standard keyboard layout was chosen for discoverability, not productivity. Giving your two best fingers (the thumb) one key between them (the space bar) is kind of crazy, in my opinion. Once you accept that your thumbs can do different things, and even many different things, the keyboard layout design space is significantly enhanced.
Having said that, I did make myself a split ergonomic keyboard with a full set of keys (107, if I recall correctly). Here's a picture:
I ended up not liking the arrows where they were (was used to the Ergodox layout where they are not an inverted T but wrap the big right thumb keys) and stopped using it. Having the number pad was great for Blender, but hard to reach.
With cheap keyswitches, cheap microcontrollers, and cheap 3D printers around... there is no reason not to build a keyboard that meets your exact requirements. I use an Ergodox EZ, though, but may experiment more in the future.
If you’re already typing correctly, you’re relying on muscle memory. Adding some layers into the mix isn’t too much of a leap. I would argue that a good split keyboard is much more useful than a standard keyboard; better positioning for ergonomics or desk space, easily stowed when not in use, truly programmable (firmware not software) that works between systems with little or no setup and a keymap that works for the user instead of against.
I like having all my often used keys in the home row. I don’t have to move my hands to use arrow keys because I use vim bindings on a layer. Hyphen,underscore, grave and tilde are on the home row, too. I can program a key to be a combination of key presses, too. My workflow is much improved using my own custom keymap and keyboard.
>It's like their designers want the device to be less useful, not more!
The main focus of most of these keyboards is ergonomics. Even if it comes at the cost of learnability.
This is also why there's a lot of variation. People are dropping and moving keys to deal with things like hand size and existing RSI.
>I wish people would just copy the MS Natural Ergonomic 4000, but with better keyswitches.
You can probably get someone to 3d print and solder you a one-off keyboard that fits the bill. It's doubtful anyone other than MS will mass produce such a thing though.
> I wish people would just copy the MS Natural Ergonomic 4000, but with better keyswitches.
I replaced my MS keyboard with a Kinesis Gaming Edge - it's a pretty good replacement, and I've found being able to separate the two halves of the keyboard and put them about shoulder width apart makes for a very nice typing experience. No numpad, and I'm not a huge fan of the home/end/pgup/pgdown placement, but you can add a numpad in a second later if you want to.
> most of them miss one or more of F keys, symmetrical meta keys, standard navigation cluster layout, volume buttons, and so on
This is why I made the gallery -- it's an easy way to compare a lot of options, even if not all options have filters.
I have just added the C989 Ergo, which was mentioned elsewhere in the discussion. That seems to be the closest mass-produced, mechanical keyboard to the MS Natural: https://c9ergo.com/
That's a great gallery! I would add the Kinesis Freestyle Edge (https://gaming.kinesis-ergo.com/edge/) , which adds mechanical switches and macro keys.
This is actually Truly Ergonomic's second of their keyboard. The fact that their site has wiped any existence of the previous version is not encouraging.
Looks like the filtering is a bit strange. If I filter mass produced only then ergodox ez is misisng, if I filter source only then ergodox ez is missing, but if I filter both then it appears? I know it's both open source and mass produced but filters should display the keyboard if at least one of them matches...
I've fixed the filter. I'd tried to do it entirely with CSS classes, but I think that was unrealistic.
(I also removed ErgoDox EZ, leaving only ErgoDox. It's the same design, and other keyboards where there are one or more manufacturers making the device to whatever quality aren't split out like this.)
I've got two ErgoDox Infinity keyboards that I believe are about as ergonomic as you can get until you're willing to have only one key per finger. I'm in the process of forming the mold for a chording keyboard (and hacking platform). My intention is to create separate left and right hand molds based on a spherical-section that match the shape of a relaxed hand (think of watching an accomplished pianist). I'm going to start out with a layout/chording scheme something like ASETNIOP (http://www.asetniop.com/) using some of the stenography techniques I've read about to make it more universal.
I should note that after using the Ergodox keyboards for a while, I definitely believe in letting the thumbs do more work!
I've been building boats using woven glass-cloth and epoxy resin but this will be my first experiment using carbon-fiber cloth. I should have noted that ideally I'd like these to be both light and tough enough to throw into a laptop bag.
One that’ll actually last? No. Even the Sculpt, which doesn’t have nice switches, is over $50.
These things are made in such small numbers that they’ll never get economies of scale. They’re typically 2x the cost of even the already high price of regular mechanical keyboards.
Kailh has their Choc switches which are low profile. Not quite chicklet but fills the same role for the most part. Low-pro lovers seem to like them quite a bit.
I've had a UHK for a couple of years now, and I'm really enjoying it. The things I enjoy the most are the mouse layer (controlling the cursor through the keyboard), and the fact that macros and other changes to the keyboard layout are saved directly to the keyboard, so that they go with me no matter the computer.
The only thing I don't like is the long wait for the modules. It's been about 3.5 years since I ordered and the ETA keep shifting. (They were supposed to ship in July, and then September. We haven't gotten the monthly update yet, but I'm doubtful they'll ship them all out this week.) With that said, they're doing something new, so I try to be mindful of the delay, and others won't have to wait for the keyboard, at least.
I've had Ergodox EZ for 5+ months, and not loving it at all! It's unnatural and uncomfortable. Tried changing switches a few times, armrest changed, angels and keyboard layout adjusted many times and it's not any better.
I feel I have to force myself to keep trying to use it because of the cost! I'm not sure if it's worth it at all, none of the parts are that expensive but I guess novelty cost money.
I bought it because of the reviews, I now realize no reviewer is ever 100% honest because candid honesty doesn't get you free samples from manufacturers to review! I will be getting rid of it soon. I definitely DO NOT recommend!
I played around with Keyboardio 001 and it's better, but my play time was too short to judge more accurately, didn't like the switches at all. I want to consider Kinesis Freestyle Edge but again the key switches are not my favorite, I like heavier tactile switches, Cherry MX Clear or similar.
My full CODE keyboard with Clear switches from 6-7 years ago is still the KING!
EDIT: LOL, people are down voting because this comment "hurt" their feelings. There's a small niche group that love ergodox, but it's not for general population. I code a lot and absolutely HATE it when missed key hits, looking for keys and typos distract my train of thought. I'm still in the hunt for a proper split keyboard but ergodox and family are not it!
I'm not going to accuse reviewers of dishonesty but I very much agree about the discomfort. I've tried all sorts of placements and tilts and layouts but it's always awkward.
I'm guessing that the discrepancy may be people with different sized hands. I find it such an awkward reach from the home position to hit anything on the middle columns or outside the two large bars in the thumb cluster. Also the 'wing' wrist rests are worthless to me, they're too low for a keyboard so thick.
I keep trying it every week or two because I have such immense buyer's remorse but really I hate it.
The Ergodox's thumb cluster is pretty widely considered suboptimal, I personally manage to use all three bottom keys but the other three are pretty unusable with the thumb (I tend to use them for media keys that I rarely use with the index and middle fingers). Hand size definitely matters, the Ergodox is pretty crap for people with smaller hands in particular.
Now I'm lucky enough to have large enough hands to use it comfortably and I really enjoy the experience.
I also don't use the wristrests at all, but that's true for any keyboard, not just the EZ. I just don't like them.
I still struggle a bit due to small fingers. I am currently in the process of ditching my pinky for typing, but 95% of my complaints are now resolved. I also don't have the default keycaps, the ones I have are a random assortment of SA/DSA keys I got for cheap from a grab bag, I want to switch to cherry profile which aren't as deep and would hopefully work well for my small fingers.
Doesn't this do a better job of immobilising joints in the case where you need to use a mouse input device frequently?
I'm very interested in learning about solid science behind these things. I was considering buying one of the UHKs specifically because of the thumb modules, but now I realize that I don't know much about the ergonomics of that. I was assuming that being able to keep my hands in a single position would be an improvement.
Can somebody compare the UHK to the Ergodox-Ez/Moonlander?
I've just started a new job and hope to use the initial downtime to adapt to an ergonomic keyboard. Since I understand it'll be a major adjustment, I've been considering alternative layouts as well. I've never learnt touch typing, so why not start from scratch on a better system?
I'm leaning Colmak mod DH for the Moonlander, but I'd appreciate any insights on this. I plan to learn Vim keybindings as well, so a layout that works well with vim would be the cherry on the top.
Colemak (any mod) + Ergodox/Moonlander - The user is not only serious about ergonomics, but has the will to put in the effort required to learn better tools of the trade.
UHK/Kenesis non-advantage series - The user is not serious about ergonomics and lacks any drive to use better tools. Status quo is the driving factor in choice.
I'm using the Redox (almost the Ergodox layout) for about two years now and I'm a big fan of the ortholinear key layout which (at least for me) was as much of an ergonomic factor as the split. So I would not get the UHK (but every hand is different).
The adjustment is not that bad. Just know that you are forced to learn touch typing (opting for blank key caps helped me a lot with that). When you are forced you usually learn this pretty quick. Just getting fast takes more effort.
If you want to learn vim keybindings, I would stay with the usual QWERTY layout as vim keybindings are optimized around the QWERTY homerow. In my opinion, other layouts like Dvorak or Colemac mess up at least a part of what makes vim keybindings great.
Of cause you could remap some keys like HJKL (left down up right) but you would have to do so in every application you would like to use vim keybindings. And what would you do if you are editing a file with vim on a remote server?
IMO alternative layouts are a bit overrated. An ergonomic keyboard takes you most of the way. If you stick with QWERTY you also won't forget how to use your co-workers keyboard.
The big difference between the Ergo/Moonlander and UHK is ortho vs staggered layout. Ortho (rather, "ortholinear") is an increasing common layout where the keys are arranged in straight rows and columns. The jury is out on whether it's useful, but legions of OLKB fans swear by it. Also, UKB hasn't shipped yet, where the Ergodox has been out for years, and there's excellent support for flashing using QMK. The Moonlander just landed (heh) a few months ago, I haven't heard too much about it, except that finding custom keycaps for the thumb console is going to be hard/impossible. I guess that's the biggest hindrance of all these ergonomic keyboards: it's really hard to find custom keycaps.
I used an Ergodox ez for over a year (mayne even 2?) before the uhk came out (ordered them around the same time, uhk was very delayed). Today (so for the last 2 years or so) I use the uhk because it has labels on all keys, ergodox only has the letters and numbers but not symbols which is what you need most. Of course that's because of personalisation but I (although I touch type and have done so for 30+ years) need to look when I type things that aren't in muscle memory, like not often used passwords.
The switches are about the same for both. The keycaps on the uhk are ok but not great; you can feel the letters and now after 2+ years the prints are fading a bit. It's easy to order new keycaps for the ergodox, although I guess if I wanted to there's probably replacement sets for the uhk too? The uhk wrist pads (wood) are now getting quite stained from hand grease, I don't quite know how to clean them without damaging the wood finish. I would have preferred high quality plastic wrist supports.
The uhk modules still aren't available, what - 3 or 4 years after they were promised? It seems the first one is almost done now... Their project management is horrible, and what's worse, they don't seem to learn either. There is no newsletter that doesn't have another reason for a delay. I mean, I get it, hatdware is hard - but then don't make predictions, especially when you were wrong the first 10 times. The thumb clusters are great in the ergodox, so I hope the uhk modules will be too.
The mouse layer on the uhk ik worthless. I mean I guess there are people out there who use it, but don't get your hopes up until you know for sure it works for you.
The ergodox just looks nicer, especially when you get some custom sleeved cables that go with your custom keycaps. It looks less - frolicky, shall I say? Eg the segment display on the uhk is both tacky and useless.
But despite all of that I still use the uhk because of the key labeling. So make of that as you will.
330 comments
[ 4.7 ms ] story [ 346 ms ] threadOne of the reasons is overlap. Your hands do occasionally hit keys on the other side. You want a pair of 2/3 keyboards, rather than 1/2 keyboards. You /especially/ want a lot of the "special" keys on both sides.
Another is key action. You want proper mechanical keys.
A third is mounting. That's a problem which hasn't really been figured out. The middle hinge or fixed setup is definitely sub-ideal. Two pieces are a bit clunky. Armchair mounts are $$$.
For me, I also like having a trackpoint. I'm not saying that's common, but a lot of people want /some/ oddball feature like that. For one person, it might be lighted keys. For another, swapped capslock. Etc.
And then there's the mass of people who don't care about keyboard and buy the cheapest possible model. Split keyboards are $$$.
On the whole, the concept is good in abstract, but all models I've used have had one fatal flaw or another.
I don‘t mind it. 99% of my time spent typing happens at my own desk(s) and the few times I use someone else’s keyboard don‘t justify compromising on comfort with my own setup.
A big part of what makes it hard for me to use a normal keyboard now, isn‘t so much the physical shape, but the programmability and additional modifier keys offered by the UHK, both of which I use a lot.
It really depends on a keyboard - if it is similar to regular one or not. The UHK is pretty similar to regular keyboard - keys are staggered (not ortholinear), there are no additional thumb keys which are also not available on a regular laptop keyboard. After a year with UHK I'm still able to jump between laptop and UHK when needed. Somehow muscle memory "detects" when my hands are on UHK and I start using additional shortcuts which are not available on laptop.
Meanwhile if you'd pick something like Dactyl https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-keyboard, I believe it would be more difficult to jump arround.
P.S. After a year my typing speed on split keyboard is higher compared to laptop.
But I'm still not sure if it would be too cyborg-y enough to use in public...
How did you find switching to Atreus& colemak? I was thinking of doing something similar and going to Corne/Colemak...
However, after not using my Das keyboard for a few weeks, I found that I couldn't type with it at all any more. I realized later that that's because the distance between the keys is smaller, so after I realized that and compensated, it became easier to type there. I never use it, though, so I haven't put in any effort.
However, put that into perspective and it feels like this keyboard will outlive me. I'll probably get another one for home use when I can go back to the office...
2. Yes :)
3. You do have great choice between splitting and tenting and wrist rests.
4. The keyboard in question has trackpoint, trackball, and trackpad accessories.
Bottom line is that once you enter the realm of unconventional keyboards, you will want a very custom one. You are right in that. This one is quite customizable, but there is always something you want different (a.k.a. endgame is a lie).
The benefits were obvious immediately, even while not touch-typing yet. Every key is assigned to a finger without ambiguity. Except for some shortcut combinations, but even then it feels clear.
You use your pinky more which I think is good (I also play the guitar).
The number one advantage is that my hand is never lost anymore. With staggered, every other word or command makes my hand "float" somewhere away from the "home row/keys", with a subsequent mistype or look-down. This does not happen anymore.
When I switched to a split keyboard I did have this problem at first (with the B and 6 keys in particular on a QWERTY layout) but it took me a week to relearn that. In particular if you use an ortholinear layout on each side there's really no reason to go fishing for keys with the wrong hand.
This in turn means that you can add new keys in the middle that are easy to reach, addressing your 2nd point since it lets you have more "special keys" in the middle.
>Another is key action. You want proper mechanical keys.
That's orthogonal. I like mechanical switches because there's a lot of variety to chose from and they're easy to replace if one goes wrong (a strong advantage on an expensive ergo keyboard that you don't want to replace because of a broken switch) but there are very decent membrane keyboard out there. It's really a matter of taste in the end. After all some people even like those low profile keyboards like the Apple ones that I personally find horrible to type on...
>For me, I also like having a trackpoint. I'm not saying that's common, but a lot of people want /some/ oddball feature like that. For one person, it might be lighted keys. For another, swapped capslock. Etc.
But you're moving the goalpost completely here. It's fine if you like trackpoints but you can't call keyboards "horrible" if they don't support your niche dream build. I don't care for trackpoints personally and it'd probably annoy me to have one on the middle of my keyboard.
>For one person, it might be lighted keys. For another, swapped capslock. Etc.
RGB lighting is fairly standard these days, and swapped capslock is normally easy to achieve either by reconfiguring the keyboard or, if not possible, the OS.
>And then there's the mass of people who don't care about keyboard and buy the cheapest possible model. Split keyboards are $$$.
That is true, ergo keyboards can be very expensive. That being said for the average HNer it's probably still worth it, after all we spend most of our days typing on keyboards, having to shell ~$300 to get a keyboard that will last us for years and improve our comfort is a no-brainer, at least for me.
I've been using an ergodox for years and while it does cost a lot it checks all of your points besides the overlap (which I think is a bad idea) and the trackpoint. It uses QMK under the hood so you can reconfigure it any way you want.
And that's not the only one either, you have the dactyl, the manuform, the moonlander and many others. It's not 2009 anymore, custom keyboards are more accessible than ever (if you have the money for them...)
If I give up a few things I like about my existing keyboard to get what you like about your keyboard, that's a bad deal. I think that's true for most people.
The type of mechanical keys on my keyboards really reduce the amount of strain on my wrist relative to membrane keyboards. It's not just a matter of taste. There's much less of a bump on the bottom if the key can continue moving after the keystroke is triggered. Membrane keyboards can do a little bit of that, but not nearly as well.
Trackpoint, implemented well, means I can do casual mousing (e.g. switching focus) without moving my hands to the mouse. That reduces shoulder strain.
You're welcome to call things I like "a bad idea," and I could do the reverse just as well, but at the end of the day, I ain't buying. I know what works for me, and I haven't found an "ergo" keyboard which does.
I was responding to: "I am puzzled why there aren't more split keyboards on the market, they are such a good idea."
I would argue, for all the reasons I gave, most are horrible for most people. That's the context. You have to read in context. That doesn't mean they won't work for you. Most people want $5 keyboards. That's followed by a long tail of oddball keyboards, of which ergo are one breed.
Most of the keyboards I use would be horrible for most people too. But they work for me.
Hell you can get a kit for a Let's Split for probably under $125 if you hit used markets for the switches and caps. The kit for everything but switches and caps is $54.99 [1]
1. https://mehkee.com/collections/featured-home-page/products/l...
Previously I was used to typing some of the letters on the edges with the "wrong" hand (e.g. typing Y with my left hand) so I mapped an Y onto both halves, but eventually I got rid of that mapping.
I also had to gradually make many other small adjustments to the layout (which is thankfully really easy), because while you can adapt to typing of the letters fairly quickly, keyboard shortcuts and function keys are another matter (especially if you were used to using the function key row with Ctrl/Alt/Shift modifiers).
Having your arms naturally apart is pretty comfortable though, and I also like how cool it looks with the blank keycaps and the metal legs.
If anything, I had bigger issues with a MacBook keyboard, due to the missing Home/End keys, which I use all the time for selecting code (e.g End followed by a Shift+Home or vice versa to select a row, or using Shift+PageUp/PageDown plus arrows to select a block, are very ingrained in my muscle memory).
What I do care about is the ergonomics and the customizability, where the Ergodox Ez excels. I don't ever need to stretch out far or in any weird way anymore. Heck, most of the time I don't need to stretch out for my mouse anymore.
Most of all keyboards on market are horrible.
I discovered I was using the wrong hand for the & key and that took some time getting used to - I do wish some keys on the middle rows were available on both sides
That has been my biggest re-learning curve - but with only the 6/7 numeric keys (which, apparently I use often) - the one thing that I would have loved with the Kinesis RGB Edge, would have been a dedicated number pad on the right-side.
>Another is key action. You want proper mechanical keys.
Kinesis RGB Edge allows you to choose which "cherry mx" mechanical keys you get when ordering.
(I sound like a shill - but, I am very satisfied after a month of ownership - pricey, yes - but well worth it)
I actually have both keyboards and they're pretty similar.
A trick here though, the RGB aka "gaming" version of the Freestyle includes wrist rests, which are $15 extra in the "Freestyle Pro," so the cost difference isn't as much as it seems. Neither includes the nifty tenting stands. You probably will want both of those accessories, so keep that in mind when pricing.
The Freestyle Pro also puts the ESC and FN keys in weird spots. You can remap them, but it's kind of annoying to move the caps around (there's also no "normal" size esc key cap to use...).
All in all, it's probably worth just getting the RGB, even if you don't care about the RGB feature.
I hadn't noticed that the esc key is moved which is kind of interesting. I actually decided that RGB would attract too much attention for me: One of my office mates is a 5-year-old right now, and I didn't want to distract from online kindergarten class too much.
I also avoided the RGB for this reason (at work, where I have the pro) - but when I got my own RGB (for home), I learned that the LEDs are just as customizable as the keys, and are only as distracting as you wish them to be :)
Why stop at 2/3? Apple Magic Keyboards are compact enough that for many people with reasonably wide shoulders they could just use two of those at once.
A setup with an Apple Magic Trackpad in the middle, two Magic Keyboards on the sides, and a mouse farther to the side might be quite reasonable.
With that said, I cannot go back to a non-split keyboard. When I use them I feel so cramped. Split design for life!
e.g.:
https://splitkb.com/products/kyria-pcb-kit
https://github.com/foostan/crkbd
https://old.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/
You can easily switch between Kinesis key placement and regular keyboards. It's like training your brain to be multilingual.
Try Emacs keybindings on a keyboard that has modifier keys easily accessible for your right and left thumbs. Emacs keybindings didn't make any sense to me till I tried them on a split keyboard.
I tried the Ergodox some others have mentioned in this thread but didn't like the modifier key placements. I've also found that I can type normally (which is reasonably quickly but not at the demonic speeds a few seem capable of) on normal or laptop keyboards, too.
Usually I find myself restricted by the speed of thought rather than speed of keyboard.
[0] https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002NP8XJ0
Pros: very similar to ergo 4000. No immediate drop in typing speed like with an ergo dox ez.
Cons: easy to workaround: left alt is too left due the spacebar and the strange dial button in the middle. I ignore the dial and mapped the cmd key to ctrl and ctrl to capslock.
Favorite keyboard ever for me. (<-- that sentence, and this one, typed on a Sculpt. Thank you, unknown engineers.)
I work from home with evaporative cooling over summer.
The first unit lasted a few years, but died on a humid summer day. Next one only lasted 12 months, again dying on a humid summer day.
First unit is irrecoverably dead. The second would come back to life after pulling it apart and cleaning with isopropyl alcohol, then die again a few days later (during summer). Issue is that the humidity seems to short the key matrix. If not careful it makes for some awkward typing mistakes.
The Sculpt seems a bit more resilient to humidity.
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07ZWK2TQT
horrid.
I used to suffer terribly with RSI from years of typing on crappy keyboards, with bad posture and not enough breaks.
The Microsoft Natural keyboard has been good to me - I haven't had RSI twinges for 10 years or so now!
I'm typing this on a Microsoft Natural Keyboard Pro which Wikipedia says was introduced in June 1999 - round about the time I got it. I wish it wasn't white as it really shows the dirt, but the media buttons are the best!
I've got two and I switched to the backup recently as my main one got really dirty and I haven't had time to clean it.
The MS Natural 4000 is very good too - I had one of those at work for over 10 years. I did wear the legends off but hey - who needs to see what key you are pressing anyway! Just don't press F-lock by accident as you'll be wondering for ages why your function keys aren't working.
I like the front stand of the 4000 to put the keyboard up a bit at the front. It is very good for encouraging good posture.
(The other thing I did to help with RSI is switch hands with the mouse. It took quite a long time to get used to using the mouse with the left hand but it really made a difference as my right wrist was worse than my left wrist. I'm now ambidextrous with the mouse - the only thing I can't do is draw with the mouse with my left hand!)
Used the sculpt for a while which I adore but I had to go back to MS's wired keyboard because the dang thing just doesn't want to stay connected to my Mac.
Finally I read somewhere that the USB dongle needs to be close to the top right side of the keyboard.
So I got a USB extender and stuck it close to the right side of my keyboard. No dead keyboard anymore !
Great shape, terrible switches.
If someone would make one with light Topre switches I would pay pretty much any price up to $1000 for it.
There's way too much emphasis on the mechanical switches among the community.
I got infatuated with mechanical keyboards with Cherry MX switches about 10-12 years ago and gave myself RSI from using them.
I kept trying different ones assuming it was the design of the keyboard.. there was so much non-scientific belief that mechanical switches are better for RSI that I had a huge blind spot. I went through Das Keyboard, Kinesis, Truly Ergonomic, and a bunch of others and it never would go away.
When I finally ditched the mechanical switches it went away... the MS keyboards seem to be the cheapest/easiest to get that have nice non-mechanical switches and work for me.
No problems for years now using the MS ones.
The boutique manufacturers selling mechanical switch keyboards market them as better for RSI without much proof meanwhile for some of us the longer travel on those switches might actually be the cause.
https://miker.org/building-a-better-keyboard/
I'm currently using a Varmillo 110% mechanical keyboard that has all the fancy keys (music/mail/calculator/My Computer keys, numpad, and multimedia keys on Fn-pressing the F keys). But it's not ergonomic; there's no curve, wrist rest, or option for a negative tilt.
A lot of mechanical keyboard options are more for show than practicality, which is a bit sad considering mechanical keys are nicer to type on.
https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/
I don't regret my purchase but if I were you I'd wait for something a bit more consequential, maybe a Moonlander Mk2. Or a more drastically different keyboard, like a manuform or a kyria for instance.
Ortholinears, of course, are all exactly the same, which lets me type with more confidence. I don't type any faster, but I do suffer fewer typos for words that require multiple row switches.
Ortho keyboards got me in the habit on using modifier keys on the opposite side of the keyboard from the shortcut key. On a regular keyboard, I'll type Command + c with my left thumb / left index finger with an unergonmic movement. On an ortho keyboard, I use my right thumb + left middle finger for the same motion.
For Vim, I started using Control + c to escape with ortho keyboards, which keeps me on the home row.
None of these are huge productivity gains. But a fun way to shock your brain and to stay sharp.
In my example, I type around 80 wpm on a regular keyboard, but I've never learned and used the proper key->finger assignment - I just type how I adapted over the years. So for me there was no trouble switching to proper technique on an ortholinear. I'm not yet nearly as fast, but it feels like it's 3-4 times easier to type (ie. less finger movement).
I'd already spent the time to learn Dvorak layout on row-staggered keyboards. Having had that training, picking up an ortho was straightforward. (Although my average wpm on typing tests after picking up the board would've been ~90).
I suspect if all your fingers 'know' is where the keys are (rather than following discipline of 'column per finger'), then adjusting to ortholinear would be harder.
Since I printed/wired myself a dactyl. Great little kb.
I was at full typing speed within a few days. Main problem was getting used to the custom locations of modifiers (e.g. thumb clusters).
That's what happened for me, at least.
This was also going from 60% to my first split/ortho.
Took me another couple of days to get used to chording and these days I use a 36 key split board.
So your mileage may vary, but it's definitely not going to take you months typically.
The only thing I had to relearn were the keys on the bottom alpha row on the left side, because on a regular keyboard I would tend to offset them by one column (i.e. type C with the index, X with the middle finger etc...) but with an ortho I didn't need to anymore. And the only reason I needed to offset them in the first place is because standard keyboards have such a bad layout for the left hand.
They say you can tilt the thumb clusters up, but then you lose the ability to tent the keyboard.
If you tent it, the thumb cluster is doing the work and has to be tilted down making it harder for smaller thumbs.
They should have provided another leg to do the tenting so you could adjust the thumb cluster as needed.
Separately, if you care about ergonomics enough to be interested in your keyboard, don't neglect your mouse - usually a much worse culprit for wrist issues. I recently switched from a vertical-style ergonomic mouse to a trackball and it's enough of a difference to make me a zealot! I bought the Kensington vertical model with a thumb trackball. My small remaining wrist issues are no more.
Apple keyboards seem to have a different layout where the command key is lined up with the gap between X|C. Being a half key off took me a little getting used to.
(I am an artist and my Wacom drawing tablet has almost completely replaced a mouse for me, the only time I plug one in is when I want to play a game that requires me to move its view by pushing the mouse cursor against the screen's edge.)
It really helps with wrist issues. I also prefer a split keyboard.
I also gave the Kensinton Expert a try but I really disliked it. For one I think I just prefer thumb trackballs, but beyond that I found the build quality really shoddy for that price. In particular the scroll ring is wobbly and rattles quite a lot on my model, it feels very cheap and is unpleasant to use.
I'm not sure I follow your reasoning. As a mechanical keyboard user, "the tactical novelty" doesn't even register in the "pros" column. As a professional software developer I use mechanical keyboards because they are far easier to clean and maintain, and are actually repairable and don't become trash just because a key happens to crap out.
Mechanical keyboard users I've known all became obsessed with them and never stayed with the same model for long, rendering their longevity irrelevant.
The rest of time I greatly prefer the ergonomics of the old thinkpad keyboards w/ track-point, but the external ones are expensive and sucky, imo.
I also sometimes move my mouse to the left side of the keyboard so that I can have better, more symmetrical posture. I would really prefer to have a small external USB trackpoint that I could simply place beneath my spacebar, but sadly no one seems to sell this.
This person even hacked their own (https://github.com/feklee/usb-trackpoint), but I haven't found the time or motivation. I bet I'm not the only one who would pay a handsome margin -- business opportunity?
That UHK pointer module would solve my ergonomic problems better than mousing backwards, and might be worth the price by itself.
Potato, topato.
> Mechanical keyboard users I've known
It's your own personal anectode and all. If you see plenty of people using the same el cheapo keyboard until it breaks apart from all the encusted breadcrumbs and hair and dust and microecosystems, I don't see what's hard to understand about how people who spend more on keyboards also do the same.
Just like different guitars play differently, just like different shoes feel differently, different keyboards feel differently too.
If you are fine with a non-mechanical one, no need to defend yourself. Some people like clicky mechanical keyboards, some like linear ones, some want a heavy touch, some a light touch, some don't feel any difference at all, etc.
A good keyboard will last you at least a decade, multiply these hours by that and even 200$ would be nearly next to nothing given the time you use it. Do you really need it? Probably not (unless you use it for ergonomics). But if you can afford it, why not.
I will say the Kinesis Advantage2 people seem to be more or less permanently satisfied, though. So I am tempted.
Creating those wells is, apparently, a tough engineering challenge, which is why so few commercially available keyboards have them, but they are what makes it so comfortable and effective. I consider the flat split keyboards to be pointless.
One issue with normal keyboards is that it forces your shoulders to round forwards.
I currently use two normal keyboards side by side, which allows me to type with my chest open.
One is set to PageUp/PageDown, which I've also set to scroll my terminal.
The other is just the Up/Down arrow, and I don't use that so much.
Both could change what they do if I hold a key, if I wanted volume or similar. Mouse wheel scroll is also an option.
I can really recommend this keyboard if you find the Ergodox layout comfortable, they're very well built.
But i'm not willing to pay that kind of money for a keyboard with cheaper Kailh brown switches and without an option for cherry mx brown.
I do assume they can't make it that much cheaper but for me personally thats just a no go.
Summary: Cherry MX supply issues and Kailh matching Cherry quality (in their opinion).
https://x-bows.com/products/x-bows-knight-ergonomic-mechanic...
I almost need a separate little keypad that I can program before I give up the 4000.
Search "Macropad", versions exist from 2×3 keys right up to about half a normal keyboard.
There are a few shown here: http://xahlee.info/kbd/programable_keypads.html
1: https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/tree/master/keyboards/xb...
I'm already planning on order a second one for the office, assuming we ever return to it.
That said, it's pretty normal to put it under directly under the thumb, on the side you normally use for space.
I use an ErgoDash, essentially a flat version of the Dactyl Manuform, and have this layout [1]. Enter is under my right thumb, but if I hold down that key it becomes Ctrl. I could already touch-type, but it took a week or two of average use to get used to all the changes. Basic typing was quicker, but touch-typing `, [], = and the function keys took longer.
[1] http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/501437fce9123e...
I primarily use a dactyl day to day, but that's just a split version (with pretty much the exact same layout) as my kinesis advantage.
That said, I like to play the occasional videogame and the advantage and dactyl just don't work well for that. So I keep a 65% board around on my desk to swap out. It has a split spacebar, left bs, right space... which means in every game ever I just rebind 'jump' to backspace :)
That being said, it took me about 3-4 weeks to get used to the keyboard to the point where I wasn't frustrated all the time and about 2 months to get back to my regular typing speed. One big benefit - I was developing carpal tunnel and about 6 weeks after switching to the dactyl, all pain was gone.
https://github.com/abstracthat/dactyl-manuform
Have never been a perfect, trained touch-typist - so there has been a learning curve, but it is worth it.
My wrists feel so much better, and I am almost back to full speed. (Previously, I would just use laptop KB's).
The only complaints... Not from me, but when I am on web meetings, I have to be on mute, because everyone finds the KB noise too loud when I am typing... Lastly, very expensive, but much like my Ergotron monitor arms, this will likely outlast generations of equipment it is currently used with.
What's particularly great about them is that you can set them up vertically so that your wrists are completely neutral. Same concept as a vertical mouse, and similarly restrictive in its functioning.
Most people probably don't need this level of relief. Idk.
The customization of both the RGB and the keys themselves as well as the ergonomics have been well worth it. I use a USB switch and use the keyboard for both Windows gaming and development on Mac.
One quirk of my typing style is that I use my right index finger for the space bar, so my left space bar effectively went unused when typing. I rebound the left space bar to the Command Key on my Mac profile so I can use my thumb for it like I would on a Mac keyboard.
I use it for gaming too. Sometimes I move the right side completely out of the way so I'm just using the left and my mouse.
I'm not saying these are all features exclusive to this particular keyboard. But a split keyboard was a great investment that I'd recommend.
My left space bar is backspace. I sometimes get confused when I switch to a different keyboard, though.
I was in a similar situation with my pok3r keyboard. I started to lower the microphone volume and people stopped complaining ymmv
Microsoft lost me in the 2000s with terrible key feel. I remember bouncing over to the company store for an Ergo 4000 and being incredibly disappointed; I could barely type on the thing. They continue to screw up (e.g., decent keyboards, with good feel and layout . . . but only bluetooth).
I have a couple of UHKs. They do not have an ESC key, something I hadn't internalized when I ordered them. I do not recommend them.
You would use their agent software:
https://github.com/UltimateHackingKeyboard/agent
Ah, the troubles we go through for the perfect HID!
It's just that some folks care enough to mute for the sake of others' ears, and some folks, not so much.
Have you looked into swapping out the switches? It looks like they aren't hot-swappable, but de-soldering switches isn't too difficult and there are a ton of amazing silent switches out right now. Check out Zealios for a great silent tactile switch.
I use Zilents on my daily driver. They're pretty quiet as far as mech switches go, but still a lot noisier than a standard laptop keyboard. No complaints so far.
But they are quit.
Also the arrow keys are mushed up with other keys and it’s hard to differentiate
https://krisp.ai/
What do you use for a microphone? I have a Shure SM57, bought to record guitar, that I have repurposed into my PC mic, and the reduction of background noise vs laptop/webcam mic is _enormous_. You can't hear my mechanical keyboard at all, and it's sitting about a foot from the mic. The SM57 isn't really a vocal mic, but it works great. I'm sure a more purpose built vocal mic would be even better.
If you are currently using a built-in mic then I think something like that in conjunction with a BG noise reducer would basically get you the rest of the way. You just need to figure out a configuration that works for you and keeps it (at least relatively) out of sight.
It also has the added benefit of hugely improving your audio quality.
* using it in full vertical is hard because there's two columns of buttons on the left & extra buttons on the right side. i diy but there is a "Ascent" package for some keyboards for full verticle. less arm twisting as you type; it's amazing, keyboard not stellar for it though.
* the stock "split" cable at 18" is pretty skimpy. the used to be an XL cable but even it was not super long and i don't see it on their store right now. RSI is about changing your posture, & when i literally use two keyboards & can put them wherever, i find myself sometimes going into a "butterfly stroke" (from swimming, arms out) position for some variety. and even basic adjustment is pretty limited at 18".
Hopefully it's helpful for a quick overview of the options that exist. Many of these keyboards are DIY (available as a kit, or sometimes just a PCB and case plan), but some are available assembled.
https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/
(There's also https://jhelvy.shinyapps.io/splitkbcompare/ for direct comparison of ergonomic (with thumb keys) keyboards.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DataHand
I've added it (though as it's unavailable, it doesn't show up by default). I've also added the Lalboard (http://lalboard.com/), which is an open-source project to recreate it.
I am a very satisfied user.
I have used ergonomic keyboards for long time. Some have been passable, such as one or two models of Adesso and Microsoft keyboard. Nothing has offered the combination of qualities that the Goldtouch offers. Comfort, robustness, adjustability, cost.
I have added a link at the very end to one such site, http://xahlee.info/kbd/ergonomic_keyboards_index.html , where the Goldtouch is listed and reviewed.
Particularly annoying when there's such a wide range of non-split keyboards with nice keyswitches. You've got all the bizarre layouts you can eat, but you still get the option of a more standard one too.
I wish people would just copy the MS Natural Ergonomic 4000, but with better keyswitches.
Having said that, I did make myself a split ergonomic keyboard with a full set of keys (107, if I recall correctly). Here's a picture:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/XPvTVdwaP2tog8zj6
I ended up not liking the arrows where they were (was used to the Ergodox layout where they are not an inverted T but wrap the big right thumb keys) and stopped using it. Having the number pad was great for Blender, but hard to reach.
With cheap keyswitches, cheap microcontrollers, and cheap 3D printers around... there is no reason not to build a keyboard that meets your exact requirements. I use an Ergodox EZ, though, but may experiment more in the future.
I like having all my often used keys in the home row. I don’t have to move my hands to use arrow keys because I use vim bindings on a layer. Hyphen,underscore, grave and tilde are on the home row, too. I can program a key to be a combination of key presses, too. My workflow is much improved using my own custom keymap and keyboard.
The main focus of most of these keyboards is ergonomics. Even if it comes at the cost of learnability.
This is also why there's a lot of variation. People are dropping and moving keys to deal with things like hand size and existing RSI.
>I wish people would just copy the MS Natural Ergonomic 4000, but with better keyswitches.
You can probably get someone to 3d print and solder you a one-off keyboard that fits the bill. It's doubtful anyone other than MS will mass produce such a thing though.
I replaced my MS keyboard with a Kinesis Gaming Edge - it's a pretty good replacement, and I've found being able to separate the two halves of the keyboard and put them about shoulder width apart makes for a very nice typing experience. No numpad, and I'm not a huge fan of the home/end/pgup/pgdown placement, but you can add a numpad in a second later if you want to.
This is why I made the gallery -- it's an easy way to compare a lot of options, even if not all options have filters.
I have just added the C989 Ergo, which was mentioned elsewhere in the discussion. That seems to be the closest mass-produced, mechanical keyboard to the MS Natural: https://c9ergo.com/
(Maybe you did a case-sensitive search, or set some filters? I have it as "ErgoDox EZ".)
[1]https://needgap.com/problems/96-one-hand-keyboard-keyboard-a...
https://trulyergonomic.com/ergonomic-keyboards/
Anandtech reviewed it seven years ago:
https://www.anandtech.com/show/6682/first-impressions-the-te...
I've fixed the filter. I'd tried to do it entirely with CSS classes, but I think that was unrealistic.
(I also removed ErgoDox EZ, leaving only ErgoDox. It's the same design, and other keyboards where there are one or more manufacturers making the device to whatever quality aren't split out like this.)
no wrist rest, or a hard plastic or wood one is leaving a lot of ergonomics, uh, off the table.
I should note that after using the Ergodox keyboards for a while, I definitely believe in letting the thumbs do more work!
These things are made in such small numbers that they’ll never get economies of scale. They’re typically 2x the cost of even the already high price of regular mechanical keyboards.
This year, they introduced a low-profile split keyboard [1], but wanting a normal-profile one is what led me to assemble a DIY kit myself.
[1] $130: https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/keyboards/k860-split...
https://keyhive.xyz/shop Corne PCB with through-hole soldering at $13. 2 Pro micros for $12. Diodes at $3. Plates at $16. Standoffs at $2.
Switches from AliExpress for $14. Keycaps for $15-30.
But, yeah, I think a more realistic budget would be $150.
The only thing I don't like is the long wait for the modules. It's been about 3.5 years since I ordered and the ETA keep shifting. (They were supposed to ship in July, and then September. We haven't gotten the monthly update yet, but I'm doubtful they'll ship them all out this week.) With that said, they're doing something new, so I try to be mindful of the delay, and others won't have to wait for the keyboard, at least.
I feel I have to force myself to keep trying to use it because of the cost! I'm not sure if it's worth it at all, none of the parts are that expensive but I guess novelty cost money.
I bought it because of the reviews, I now realize no reviewer is ever 100% honest because candid honesty doesn't get you free samples from manufacturers to review! I will be getting rid of it soon. I definitely DO NOT recommend!
I played around with Keyboardio 001 and it's better, but my play time was too short to judge more accurately, didn't like the switches at all. I want to consider Kinesis Freestyle Edge but again the key switches are not my favorite, I like heavier tactile switches, Cherry MX Clear or similar.
My full CODE keyboard with Clear switches from 6-7 years ago is still the KING!
EDIT: LOL, people are down voting because this comment "hurt" their feelings. There's a small niche group that love ergodox, but it's not for general population. I code a lot and absolutely HATE it when missed key hits, looking for keys and typos distract my train of thought. I'm still in the hunt for a proper split keyboard but ergodox and family are not it!
It took about a month to get used to the linear (non-staggered) layout, but since I did it's been great.
I attribute the major improvement in RSI mostly to the split-ness, which keeps my shoulders properly spaced.
I'm guessing that the discrepancy may be people with different sized hands. I find it such an awkward reach from the home position to hit anything on the middle columns or outside the two large bars in the thumb cluster. Also the 'wing' wrist rests are worthless to me, they're too low for a keyboard so thick.
I keep trying it every week or two because I have such immense buyer's remorse but really I hate it.
Now I'm lucky enough to have large enough hands to use it comfortably and I really enjoy the experience.
I also don't use the wristrests at all, but that's true for any keyboard, not just the EZ. I just don't like them.
I had a keyboard tray at work, so decided to get one of those from M3. It seems like a no brainer now.
Removed the side rests from my chair, and lowered the keyboard height so that the lower wrist rests easily on my keyboard tray's wrist rest.
I use the 'timed' shift functionality of the ergodox EZ. Check the video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1rj9ZSBggg
I use vim extensively, and changed from hjkl to jkl; to keep touch typing in vim consistent with typing outside of it.
I use the layer 1 extensively, and have mapped my thumb keys to enable those on a long press.
My layout configuration is here: https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/ergodox-ez/layouts/BN33O/la...
I still struggle a bit due to small fingers. I am currently in the process of ditching my pinky for typing, but 95% of my complaints are now resolved. I also don't have the default keycaps, the ones I have are a random assortment of SA/DSA keys I got for cheap from a grab bag, I want to switch to cherry profile which aren't as deep and would hopefully work well for my small fingers.
Ergonomic setups are specifically meant to immobilise both your thumb and wrist joints.
I'm very interested in learning about solid science behind these things. I was considering buying one of the UHKs specifically because of the thumb modules, but now I realize that I don't know much about the ergonomics of that. I was assuming that being able to keep my hands in a single position would be an improvement.
I've just started a new job and hope to use the initial downtime to adapt to an ergonomic keyboard. Since I understand it'll be a major adjustment, I've been considering alternative layouts as well. I've never learnt touch typing, so why not start from scratch on a better system?
I'm leaning Colmak mod DH for the Moonlander, but I'd appreciate any insights on this. I plan to learn Vim keybindings as well, so a layout that works well with vim would be the cherry on the top.
UHK/Kenesis non-advantage series - The user is not serious about ergonomics and lacks any drive to use better tools. Status quo is the driving factor in choice.
The adjustment is not that bad. Just know that you are forced to learn touch typing (opting for blank key caps helped me a lot with that). When you are forced you usually learn this pretty quick. Just getting fast takes more effort.
If you want to learn vim keybindings, I would stay with the usual QWERTY layout as vim keybindings are optimized around the QWERTY homerow. In my opinion, other layouts like Dvorak or Colemac mess up at least a part of what makes vim keybindings great.
Of cause you could remap some keys like HJKL (left down up right) but you would have to do so in every application you would like to use vim keybindings. And what would you do if you are editing a file with vim on a remote server?
IMO alternative layouts are a bit overrated. An ergonomic keyboard takes you most of the way. If you stick with QWERTY you also won't forget how to use your co-workers keyboard.
Huh? I ordered one on 19 Sept. and had it on my desk in California on 24 Sept.
The switches are about the same for both. The keycaps on the uhk are ok but not great; you can feel the letters and now after 2+ years the prints are fading a bit. It's easy to order new keycaps for the ergodox, although I guess if I wanted to there's probably replacement sets for the uhk too? The uhk wrist pads (wood) are now getting quite stained from hand grease, I don't quite know how to clean them without damaging the wood finish. I would have preferred high quality plastic wrist supports.
The uhk modules still aren't available, what - 3 or 4 years after they were promised? It seems the first one is almost done now... Their project management is horrible, and what's worse, they don't seem to learn either. There is no newsletter that doesn't have another reason for a delay. I mean, I get it, hatdware is hard - but then don't make predictions, especially when you were wrong the first 10 times. The thumb clusters are great in the ergodox, so I hope the uhk modules will be too.
The mouse layer on the uhk ik worthless. I mean I guess there are people out there who use it, but don't get your hopes up until you know for sure it works for you.
The ergodox just looks nicer, especially when you get some custom sleeved cables that go with your custom keycaps. It looks less - frolicky, shall I say? Eg the segment display on the uhk is both tacky and useless.
But despite all of that I still use the uhk because of the key labeling. So make of that as you will.
They will cost a lot more than you expect (low volume manufacturing).
This is one example, plus others others in the same subreddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechGroupBuys/comments/iks5r5/gb_ka...
Personally, I bought a set with a few daft symbols, as I can easily remember that the biohazard symbol is Ctrl, and it gave a bit more flexibility.