This is the biggest question I have. This, to me, doesn't function as a desk because of the incline. It has the potential to be a remarkably comfortable means to use a desktop (or perhaps laptop if you built in a way to mount it), but without a way for me to sit my coffee on it, or to put a notepad somewhere and not have to worry about it sliding off.
I know you can build in mounts for that stuff, but I think there's a lot of value in how dynamic desk surface is. Need 2 notepads so you can see things side by side? Cool, put it on the desk. Working on 2 laptops today, because you got a new one? Cool, put it on the desk.
I wonder if you could find a way to to make things stay put. Anything sticky would get all over your arms. Velcro seems usable if you put the soft side on the desk, but it's ugly. You could maybe use magnets that you embed into your stuff to increase the friction enough that they don't slide. Won't help with tea, but it should work for most other things. Modern monitors and computers without magnetic hard drive are okay with magnets, right? (I can't say for sure)
There's a comic strip I can't find anymore that showed the progression of ergonomic work environments, ending with a workstation with the person leaning forward with their chest supported. Imagine someone on a sports bike, that's about what the position was.
A friend once said “There’s all these studies about how bad sitting is for you. Now there are even studies about how bad standing desks are for you. Nobody ever says anything bad about laying down so I just try to do that as much as possible.”
The worst potential consequence of laying down is that your back muscles would become weaker. This is one of the reasons why sitting harms your back, and with laying down it would be even worse. Unless it's combined with some exercise it could be a really bad idea.
How long are you using it for every day?
I also own that chair, but i find it uncomfortable for longer periods of time and tend switch to a chair with a backrest after ~1h
Some days I actually sit on it for 8-10 hours (I hate to admit it).
I do take breaks and it can become fatiguing so occasionally, I feel like having a slouch so I go lie on the floor or use a regular chair (with decent posture) for a break.
Probably what this chair has done for me the most is make sitting with bad posture feel noticeably strange and unnatural.
There must also be something to be said for the fact that there is a “ramp up” time. I don’t think I have a stronger back from using this chair alone, although I guess I do have a less damaged and atrophied one. I do remember a time when it felt like certain muscles were getting stronger. I vaguely remember it taking a few months to become comfortable.
It’s worth mentioning that I do a fair bit of weight training too and that I’ve had the chair for about 8 years.
Nope, Padmasana isn’t a back strengthening pose, although a strong core is necessary to maintain it for a typical meditation session. Salabhasana (locust pose) is great for the entire back side of the body.
Yup. It's sort of astonishing how neatly doing reasonably heavy deadlifts 1-2x a week just fixes basically all the usual lower back problems common to middle age and a lifestyle with a ton of sitting.
not an expert, but I talked to my physical trainer about this. he said sitting all day is not necessarily that bad for you if you sit with a good upright posture that engages the core. of course, almost no one does this. most people will tend to slouch forward, which has a couple consequences.
your shoulders will shrug and round forwards, which will limit your range of motion over time. any stretch that retracts the scapula should help; also if you do any exercise like a row, make sure to focus on really pinching your scapula together.
your core muscles will weaken, leaving your spine more vulnerable to injury. "hunched forward" will become your default posture which exacerbates this further. your spine is actually really strong when it is aligned properly, but you need good core strength to do this. doing a "hollow body" pose and your basic plank are good ways to strengthen these muscles (overarching your spine in either direction is a problem).
A swivel-less hard chair forces one to find the right position to sit up IMO. Chair height, distance to keyboard, desk height, they all play a role too. But comfy chairs are not good in the long run
I'd say anything that engages the core (superman, plank variations) and activates the upper back (YTWL's) would be good choices, ideally substituted with some stretches or mobility work
I recently did PT for lower back stuff mostly related to sitting for long periods.
I went from constant “3-4” level pain to “0-1” pain. I’m still working on strengthening, and re-injured my back moving something heavy, but PT was a game changer.
A lot of stretching like the above video shows, as well as working on posture, sleeping position, as well as just overall education on how my muscles work and what to do when I feel them tighten up or feel an area swelling up.
It’s mostly simple stuff but requires habit changes and can be time consuming so you have to fit it into regular routines. Stretching before/after bed, while you brush teeth, etc.
You look weird randomly stretching on a stair while you stir your tea, but it can make a big difference.
Along with the other good replies, I think almost any strength exercise that has any connection to the back will probably do fine, especially if you're not doing anything at all right now.
Among the many other things I had hammered into me about health when I was a kid in the late 1980s and 1990s that I've come to reject is the incessant hammerbeat about aerobics, aerobics, aerobics. I think the evidence is that the average person is better off with a lot more strength training, which will incidentally train you on some aerobics, and if you feel like occasionally folding some aerobics in, hey, go for it. They're not bad or anything. But they ought to be considered a specialist training, like working out legs specifically for biking, not a default that everybody do. Strength training is a default everybody should work on. Strength training isn't so you can lift 300 pounds when you help your friend move... it because it makes everything work better. You sleep better. Your back hurts less. You fall less. You build a better base for aging.
I would like some sort of setup like this when I throw my back out. I usually can’t do anything except lay in bed for 2-3 days and am pretty much useless. But I could at least do some work while I’m not sleeping.
I can confirm. I've mostly been working from my bed during these Covid times, and once I started going to the gym I was astonished by just how weak my back was, as opposed to my upper body or legs. But thankfully, it's building back up nicely.
IME it's not sitting or standing or lying down that's injurious, it's not moving. My pain to a large extent went away when I stopped staying so still. Now I change my posture on the regular, from leaning against the backrest to sitting away from it to taking little breaks to pace around a bit.
Similarly, I used to get eye strain from all the screen time. Until I moved to an office with a view and I found myself staring out whenever I would zone out to think. Now I'm working from home and don't have the same inducement to look out and my eyes have started bothering me again. I try to observe 20-20-20 (every 20 minutes spend 20 seconds looking at something 20 feet away) but it's not quite the same.
I am aware of this which is why I have always wanted one of those standing table treadmill combinations. I'm just not sure that I could actually work and concentrate while running... maybe if the table somehow compensated for the shaking caused by running on the treadmill. Or maybe one could use a VR headset instead of a regular display.
I had a diy one for a while. I found it really hard to type and walk. I can't imagine trying to type and run.
These days I just make time for moving outside of work and change my position at work. Standing desk, sitting on an exercise ball, sitting in a chair, repeat.
> But while standing may be better than sitting, I like to at least start my day with something more active, and for more than a decade I’ve been making sure to walk for a couple of hours every morning. But how can I be productive while I’m walking? Well, nearly 15 years ago (i.e. long before it was popular!) I set up a treadmill with a computer in the room next to my office:
> The biomechanics weren’t too hard to work out. I found out that by putting a gel strip at the correct pivot point under my wrists (and putting the mouse on a platform) I can comfortably type while I’m walking. I typically use a 5% incline and go at 2 mph—and I’m at least fit enough that I don’t think anyone can tell I’m walking while I’m talking in a meeting. (And, yes, I try to get potentially frustrating meetings scheduled during my walking time, so if I do in fact get frustrated I can just “walk it off” by making the treadmill go a little faster.)
I have used "walking desk" setup now for about a year. Treadmill is kind of special walking treadmill, speed ranges from 1-5 km/h (0.5km/h steps). I normally walk about 5-6km per day while working. Mostly speed is 1 or 1.5km/h.
Only downside is that when having video meeting, my head is bouncing while walking. Usually leads the conversation on treadmill.
Same experience. I like to rotate between 2 chairs, sometimes standing up, sometimes laying down. I still have mild back pain sometimes, but it's way better than what it used to be. I used to barely be able to sleep through it.
If you are suffering from back pain caused by sitting and have trouble sleeping, I used this video [1] to relieve the pain for a while. It helped so much that after 2-3 weeks of doing it every day 2-3 times, I was able to sleep normally again. I also slept on the ground for a while since my mattress was too soft. I now own a very firm mattress.
I have often thought about how driving for hours in a bucket seat, at least in the cars I've owned, has never been a struggle. The only thing that comes out wrong is I don't always hydrate, and that makes me a zombie (which is now a solved problem for me). So that leads to the thought that maybe, have the water supply for the hydroflask at a distance from the desk, so you have to get out of the chair to refill.
Back in 2008, BMW introduced an "active" anti-fatigue feature in their X6 that subtly and continuously changed the contour of the seat. I tried it on a long drive, and it is barely perceptible. If I didn't know I had turned it on, I'm not sure I would have noticed it was on.
Some medical beds have a similar feature where the mattress will inflate/deflate in different areas to best match the patient's weight distribution. They'll also inflate/deflate on a cycle.
Supposedly it's good for patients that stay in bed for long periods without moving as it improves circulation, reduces back pain and prevents bed sores.
I would pay for a chair with this tech. I have back problems which go away when I exercise and some pain when sitting still caused by an accident a few years ago.
I have an Airhawk cushion on my motorcycle and one one of the things I find best about it is everytime I stopped for petrol I'd let a little air out, or add a little air. It took 10s and gave me a different riding position for the next few hours. I can spend a lot longer in the saddle with it than without. (Speaking of saddles, I plan on trying it next time I go horse riding too, though I don't know what my queue will be for adjusting the volume of air).
Interesting! I used to have a Morgan car, and the seat was a blow-up to which I'd add or remove air to change my position. It helped avoid discomfort on long-distance trips.
Car makers have spent a fair amount of money trying to make better seats. A luxury car from 1920s is much less comfortable than the economy car today. Comfortable seats are important for people who drive all the time, and they tend to buy cars.
Checking local laws where the car was demonstrated, it appears that it is not actually mandatory that skirt wearers put their legs up on the ottoman. While local police may harass you anyway, there is sufficient leg room to place your legs in the space between the edge of the seat and the ottoman.
I've seen multiple hacks where people go to the junkyard and pick up an old Mercedes or BMW driver's seat, hook it up to power, and then use that as their desk chair with a floating desk.
If I had the space I'd consider it myself. Like you, I can drive five hours without stopping and be fine the whole way and when I get there.
I'm not sure it's the chair so much as the movement that changes things. You're shifting around a lot when driving. Legs moving on pedals, arms and hands wheel turning, head+shoulders turning to look left and right.
It'd be nice if being comfortable at a computer all day was as easy as changing the seat but i don't believe that's true.
> You're shifting around a lot when driving. Legs moving on pedals, arms and hands wheel turning, head+shoulders turning to look left and right.
As someone who lives in the midwest, I have to disagree. Pick pretty much any random 100 mile stretch of I-70 or I-80 between the Appalachians and the Rockies and the majority of it will be straight enough that you could set the cruise and only have to turn the wheel a few degrees at most as long as traffic doesn't do anything stupid.
When I was younger and dumber I once drove from I-71 near Cleveland almost to Chicago with just my knee on the wheel. There's a kink about half way across Indiana that was the only real challenge.
> Pick pretty much any random 100 mile stretch of I-70 or I-80 between the Appalachians and the Rockies
Having recently (and historically many times before that) drove both I-70 and I-80 in the area indicated, I feel you’re being a bit hyperbolic. I’d agree both are as described for some 100 mile stretches (I-70 between Hays / Salina KS and I-80 between Lincoln / Grand Island NE as two examples), but not any random section.
I think it's pretty healthy to get up and go walk to a window to stare out of it for a spell. I've been trying to take short walks around my block throughout the day to prevent any soreness or posture issues, as well. I didn't realize it, but back before the pandemic I was walking probably 5 miles a day at least commuting and walking around work, plus a dozen or so flights of stairs.
I used to commute to a city from which I live about an hour by train away. I worked from home a lot, but would travel there a lot too and every day I did, I easily walked over 10km each day, since I walked to and from the train station on both sides and in the city I'd walk everywhere too if I was going anywhere for lunch or after work, so it added up very quickly. With covid, I haven't been since early this year and I definitely miss all the walking. I try to go for walks here, but when I went to work there, it was an unconscious thing that I just did without thinking, while here its a decision I have to consciously make, which makes it a lot harder.
so basically just a desk that constantly moves around? I suppose if you want to be 100% ergonomically friendly it should also just leave the room and go for a walk. If you want to keep working, you need to come along!
Anecdotaly I didn't get proscribed reading glasses until a year or two after I quite smoking...
Seriously though, one thing I did find was when I quit smoking my ability to solve complex problems at work went down for a while. I was no longer taking a forced 10 minute break every 60-90 minutes that let my brain reset. (Or explaining my problem out loud to another filthy smoker skulking around the back of the building :D )
Fortunately for me it was about the same time that the Pomodoro technique was featured on Lifehacker and I implemented a similar system to replace the regular nicotine craving induced breaks.
Nicotine is also an acetylcholinergic stimulant, meaning it aids in the quickness of thought [0]. By removing this from your stack you probably depressed your acetylcholine for a while, making you less able to think clearly.
It might also be the lack of breaks too, but who knows.
My old office had a dart board in the lounge. I think it was quite ingenious in that it forced the workers to focus their eyes differently from their screen time whenever they took a dart break.
A physiotherapist once said to me that sitting with bad posture isn't even bad for you... as long as you don't stay in the same position too long. So the problem isn't sitting, standing or lying down, its doing those for too long. I suppose probably due to not moving, as you said.
A hunched sitting posture and little physical activity does likely impair the metabolism though. The human metabolism has adapted for things to be upright and moving all the time, not for sitting absolutely still with compression forces acting upon the abdominal intestines by being hunched over for hours at a time.
I find my self working more and more sitting on the floor with my legs crossed on a floor pillow and the laptop on top of a shin high living room table. My legs can only take this for about half an hour before I start feeling the lack of blood flow, so I’m forced to change positions, stand up and rest for a little, or move to a desk or to the sofa. Even in the sofa I work sitting with my legs crossed up in the sofa for the same reason. I find this forces me to change my position quite frequently and never work for too long at a time without moving at least a little.
I'm lucky enough to be able to move around my house a lot and I get up pretty frequently. I actually have a pretty well-equipped office with keyboard tray, dual monitors, and HM chair. But I actually work a fair bit in a nice sunny room with a fairly cheap but comfortable Ikea chair that leans back and a foot rest. I work in that with my laptop just on my lap if I don't need a bunch of screen real estate.
> IME it's not sitting or standing or lying down that's injurious, it's not moving. My pain to a large extent went away when I stopped staying so still. Now I change my posture on the regular, from leaning against the backrest to sitting away from it to taking little breaks to pace around a bit.
I'm a big guy, 6'4", and fidgety. Being tall, I learned early on good posture is crucial for a pain free back, as is strong back muscles. Between that and being always moving, I don't deal with a fraction of the body issues a lot of office workers seem to. The worst is long flights, because getting up and walking around at least once an hour is something I don't even have to think about, so planes aren't great for that. On planes I understand why people want comfort at their desk.
I do lots of work in my hammock -- I can shift to many different positions, including putting my feet down and gently pushing side to side. Laptop only, but hopefully eventually with VR
The body is complex. Try not to box its functioning into simplistic principles like "it's not moving". Zen practice, for example, involves sitting as still as you can for 25 mins at a stretch, followed by a meditation walk for a few minutes and then resuming. A retreat (called "sesshin") will typically involve such sitting for about 8-9 hours a day, for 4 days to a week. Monks have been doing this for a couple of millennia at the very least if you consider only Buddhism. In other traditions, monks may sit continuously for far longer than the 25 mins characteristic of current traditions. No longitudinal study of postures can top that record.
The sitting posture matters because the spine is kept erect naturally, like a vertical pendulum. Once you get used to it, it is a pretty relaxed posture that feels quite sustainable .. compared to sitting in any chair.
Totaly agree with this analysis. I've got a Furna motorised standing desk, a wobble board and a kneeling stool. Apart from looking like a middle-class numpty in some kind of hellhole physio studio, it's actually pretty great having lots of options.
I've also taken to being fairly strict with a Pomodoro routine. 25 minutes focused (strictly locking down email!) work, 5 minutes when I get up and have a wander around the house. I think my attention is better, my eyes get a chance to rest, less aches.
The other thing I did was to start using mouse left-handed. I got terrible RSI with my right (I'm naturally right-handed) and actually although I'm slower with my left it's no bad thing - my movement is more considered, less jerky, and I think has a lower impact on anything likely to trigger RSI.
So yeh, I think I'm ok for a death-trap lying down desk, thanks anyway...
While sitting or laying at a desk all day, you'd have to try very very hard to get a bed sore from doing it, wincing through quite a bit of pain and itching and discomfort to remain seated.
There's a reason the guy in the image is like 90+ years old and either suffers from immobility and/or nerve issues. Anyone more healthy than that would feel the need to squirm and get up long before one would form.
Also, the way we sit in a chair isn't exactly activating any muscles over just laying down or reclining in a La-z-boy. For that reason I do like the idea of sitting on one of those inflatable yoga balls when I'm not standing.
I bet you could burn an extra 200 calories a day just incidentally bouncing as you ponder HN.
Why is this downvoted? It’s accurate - healthy, mobile-able individuals don’t get pressure ulcers. You’ll shift your weight and move around enough to avoid any damage.
It’s folks who are bedridden and don’t have the ability to move themselves around that get pressure ulcers. Combine that with poor circulation and potential nerve damage (diabetes) and it’s not hard to do.
A health 35 year old? You’d have to force yourself to get a pressure ulcer.
It is kind of true. Humans are only bipedal thanks to some fairly recent evolutionary hacks, and not all the bugs have been worked out yet. It's totally possible for both sitting and standing to be bad for you.
When I had my spine surgery and was bed-ridden I scoured the web for such a setup which will help me use a laptop in bed without moving my neck and wasn't able to find anything practical.
I've now come to the conclusion that low latency video glasses/headset connected as external display to the laptop/smartphone is a better solution for that problem as it doesn't require any of these contraptions; But I'm still in search of one[1].
Thanks I think I've seen that, unfortunately I suffer from extreme simulation sickness, can't even play Minecraft and hence I'm exploring non-VR direct display glasses.
But, those who have no issues with VR might indeed find immersedvr useful.
FWIW I also get extreme motion sickness with VR. Except the Oculus (Edit: Oculus Quest). I don't know why, but that one doesn't bother me at all. I've literally used it for hours at a time with no problems.
Possibly the computer you were using was not able to keep up a consistent frame rate or your experience is with one of the oculus dev kits which were low spec.
Now, that's very interesting. John Carmack said in an interview couple of years back that simulation sickness is the foremost problem to solve in VR, perhaps they have addressed that in Quest?
Thanks, now I'm intrigued. I'll have to checkout Quest soon.
Minecraft VR? I tend to not get VR sickness, but Minecraft was an exception. The movement of the character is really not designed for VR, it is pretty fast and there's lots of verticality.
VR motion sickness comes pretty much entirely from games which require your body to move with a controller rather than actual movement. If you are just using it as a virtual monitor then its very unlikely you will feel sick.
The real problem is no VR headset has a resolution high enough to come even close to what a normal monitor would provide dpi wise.
I guess you have to find a low weight VR set though.
I completely get it because of how easy it is to get lost in the VR experience and forget about the outside worlds. Seems great for productivity. Might have to try it out sometime.
I don't want to be overly negative/critical, but an observation: Facebook's decision to require Facebook logins for all Oculus products seems like a very good reason to branch out support other VR devices ASAP. Mandatory Facebooks is a concern for privacy-focused private users, but double a concern for work-related tooling.
I'm severely disabled from a back injury and I use this(link below) over my bed, with a vesa wall mount attached in place of the horizontal bar mount that comes with it. I've also got a pair of joycons that I use as dual mice through steam so I can put my arms anywhere. You need a wall mount arm that tilts up and down though, which a lot don't. I also have a lightweight keyboard that hangs from behind the monitor by twine and some sticky wall hooks so it's virtually weightless and allows me to elevate my legs and not have to hold up the keyboard to type
This is what I ordered before the surgery and used it for a while when in bed. But it induced nausea after a while of use. But this is the most cost effective solution for those who are bit more tolerant to simulation sickness.
The point is: having another fundamental class of postures available - in this case "lying" (in addition to sitting and standing) - increases our flexibility (and potential for respite) by approximately 33 percent.
For people suffering from severe RSI -- especially those for whom essentially any amount of sitting in one class (say "sitting"), even in difference positions within that class -- becomes unbearable for more than an hour or so -- then this 33 percent can be of significant impact.
Also - for some people standing just doesn't work (for more than very short intervals). So in fact the lying option provides significantly more respite potential (50 percent).
When I was having RSI and back issues from so much sitting in my life, my research pointed me at 0g workstations very much in similar configuration to this combined with split keyboard and thumb trackballs, I came close to ordering one which would have set me back $2500 USD or more. Luckily, I managed to avoid having to go full WALL-E with massage and excercise.
Those unfortunate enough to have injuries have similar desks, I have a journalist friend with very bad RSI or whatever you call it these days: she can't work fast any more but it let's her rest and apparently it's the easiest on her wrists.
As someone who shares bloak's sentiment, there's two different verbs, lay and lie, and pointing out the difference is a hill worth dying on. (I doubt bloak is actually upset. It's mock outrage.)
Edit: I was actually confused by the title of the submission which is illustrative of the distinction between the two words.
To me, a lay down desk is a desk that can be laid flat, and that's what I thought this was going to be. Some kind of desk that could be easily collapsed to make space.
Whereas, a lie down desk is a desk you lie down to use.
True, there aren't transitive and intransitive versions of stand, but since desks stand by default, you can make assumptions about what a standing desk is.
I really was not expecting a lay down desk to be something you lie down to use.
For anyone seeking further clarification, this is the difference between "lie", an intransitive verb (takes no object) and "lay", a transitive verb which takes an object.
So, you lie in bed, but you lay something down.
The two different verbs tenses are confusing though:
lie, lay (past), lain (past participle). You lay in bed last night or had lain in bed.
lay, laid (past and past participle).
Also, to get laid is something that often happens while lying in bed. And of course, lie has multiple meanings, and people will sometime lie to get laid and then lie in bed to do so.
This looks comfortable, but I wonder if I'd actually be productive in this. I tried sitting on an exercise ball for a while for posture, and it definitely was a small nagging distraction. I find I'm 95% equally productive with a standing desk, but I have noticed that when I'm embarking on a couple hours of focused work, I lower it to seated.
I have a similar desktop with a standing desk that can go quite low + good gaming/office chair that I have approximately at desk height. My monitor is on an arm so it's a bit more than an arm's length away from me and at eye level. I have my feet on the table and the keyboard (made out of one piece with a hand rest) in my lap. Can't say exactly about productivity, but I really enjoy working this way.
Honestly I just sometimes want a clamp with a flexible sturdy arm, like one of those workbench lamps, to suspend my laptop above my bed. Pretty cool work nonetheless!
I'm having trouble deciding if the construction and woodworking are excellent, terrible, or both :)
At first it looks really flimsy and jumbled together. But on closer inspection it seems more stable, and ultimately the proof of the pudding is in the tasting.
In college I had some back problems, so I improvised (an incredibly unwise) lay-down desk by putting my monitor face down on two chairs and just lying with my face underneath it. This was a heavy CRT, not a modern LCD monitor. (Did I mention this being incredibly unwise...?)
I suspended a kindle over my bed on two 2-meter rails used for reinforcing wall edges. Best reading I did while recovering from leg injuries, but risky as you mentioned.
In a small apartment I used to rent, there was a rod for hanging clothes over the bed. I didn't use the rod, so I just hung a tablet from the rod and watched movies in bed. It's a very comfortable position to be in, don't have to strain your neck.
I have a cantilevered tablet holder over my bed, it can hold a Kindle or iPad without effort and has both clamps and an elastic cord to retain them.
Then for ultimate convenience (laziness) I connected a bluetooth presentation clicker to my iPad to turn the pages for me so I didn't have to keep reaching up or take my arms out from under the blanket on cold nights. In two years it's never dropped.
I just hang mine with a long string and adjustable friction knots for tilt. The downside is it can still spin but my non-ideal fix is to throw a heavier shoelace string off to the side and move it as needed.
The functional programming one could probably be generalized to "argues for switching to a programming language or programming paradigm when it doesn't even make sense for the particular context or HN thread topic".
There's always someone that's religious about their particular technical choices.
* dismisses the thought by referring to the commenter's privilege for having it in the first place, rather than commenting on the value or feasibility of the thought itself.
You forgot "find a wordy way to criticize something while pretending you're suggesting an improvement so that you can pander to some viewpoint that it's hard to argue against with the demographics here being what they are"
Those are all negative. Lots of HN comments are positive.
Can you think of any other community where someone can discuss the damage of a CRT monitor falling into your face with terms like "scale linearly" and everybody just nods in agreement?
I think it's delightful, one of the little pleasures of hanging around here.
I used to have a large CRT monitor that was 30kg (I don't recall the actual screen size, but it was somewhere between 20-30". It was an absolute behemoth, and I remember the desk sagged down at least an inch in the centre. It looked pretty dodgy, but it sat there for years without incident!
I had to look that up, but yes that looks correct. Except that, from the diagram, it bends your view by less than a right angle. Opposite vertical direction though.
me too! I've recommended them to so many people at this point (including another commenter upthread). kindle landscape mode is great for prism glasses, just at the upper bound of what their vertical FOV can hold.
I've found the best lying down desk is a $300 mini-projector and a yoga mat. You project at the ceiling (so projector is above your head) and then put a wireless keyboard on your stomach, with mouse by your side. Alternate with a standing desk. Good after 10 years of jiu-jitsu and a knackered body
I do something similar. Typing isn't bad but it's sometimes tough to get your fingers at the right starting positions for touch typing. I put a few tactile stickers on the keyboard to help. Otherwise it is very comfortable.
In my experience, I've found a MS Surface and a gooseneck ipad holder is a lightweight ideal laydown desk. I clamp the gooseneck a few feet above me in bed and I can lay perfectly flat and have access to a full PC.
It also can be disassembled and stored in moments.
Could you please point me to your choice of stickers, or mention the brand? I desperately need some bumps on the current keyboard and thought of messing with glue and plastic, but it hasn't occurred to me that someone already made a finished solution for that. From searching, I now see a bunch of related stuff, like braille and such, so it would help to narrow it down to more suitable products.
Yeah, but for for farther away keys, like / or \ for example, you can loose the registration of your fingertips and mistype.
Laying down and typing is at a weird angle so you can't quickly check that your fingers are aligned right. It is just easier to have a tactile anchor at the far end of the keyboard, particularly when typing fast.
The mouse is a little out of the way. Seems like have you to move to a workflow that you are almost entirely on keyboard? I would love that but just find that there is so much forced mouse interaction which I would like to avoid?
If you just need to click a button or two now and then, keynav is great. It’s one of the programs I have in a script to fetch automatically on fresh GNU installs, though it’s no replacement for vi bindings everywhere one can get them (vis, dwm, tmux, Pentadactyl, etc.)
Twenty years ago or so, I borrowed a projector from the office (they were still very expensive at the time), and spent a couple of nights watching movies on the ceiling with friends, while lying down on the floor.
It was incredibly comfortable, and uncomfortably decadent at the same time.
My wife and I used to do that when she was a teacher. Over the summer we'd bring her classroom projector home and watch movies on the ceiling. It was great!
Now we have adjustable beds and a TV in the bedroom, so that's easier.
How about one of those keyboards that split into left hand and right hand? Then your hands can be at your side. Like when using Nintendo Switch Joycons.
I was in the market for a desk and chair recently. Long story short: sitting at a floor table and on the couch all day was causing issues with my back and hamstrings.
I did look into the AltWork setup mentioned. At $7000 (or $4500 for manual option), it's quite expensive but not that bad if amortized over a 20 year period of working 8 hours a day. Investment in long-term health is worth it if the product works as it should and lasts the expected amount of time.
Aside from my wife not wanting it in our apartment (I understand), there isn't enough evidence that zero gravity workstations improve health versus just a good ergonomic chair (ie. an adjustable chair that fits your body) and desk (adjustable and gets low enough to support 90° elbow angle without hitting your legs). In all cases, one needs to take breaks to stretch and move around, not to mention daily exercise.
Went with a HM Embody (armless) chair and IKEA Skarsta hand crank desk instead; zero regrets and I wish I got them earlier (especially the Embody)!
The only squeak I hear is if I sit down or get up from the chair and put the weight of my hands on the seat. No squeaking when just sitting in it, even when adjusting tension and recline.
They have magnet stickers you attach to the back of any keyboard (or mouse) and it'll work. My keyboard is kinda heavy so it needed like 10 magnets attached to it, but it's completely stable.
That said, for lying down, you really want a trackball mouse (the alternative is to dock the mouse when not in use, which is OK if you mostly use the keyboard for everything).
Why reinvent the bed?
All you need for a lay down desk is a 12 inch orthopedic foam wedge and a laptop tray. Both readily available in Amazon. I've been working this way for years.
My intuition is that as people's standard of living improve, bedding is one of those things that gets easily overlooked when you can't afford it but is somewhere investing some "real" money returns a good result.
I went from using the bed from my parents' house (which was a hand-me-down) to a dorm bed (briefly) to the absolute cheapest thing I could get my hands on that wasn't stained brown or covered in bugs. It wasn't until I was relatively successful and making ~$80k / year that I felt like it was reasonable to invest in a nice mattress, and even then, I came to the conclusion that the "mattress store" beds were way overpriced and had little to differentiate them.
I ended up with a memory foam bed off Amazon. It was ~$200 for a queen and I've had it for about five years. The biggest issue I have with it is that the fabric seems to take stains more readily than my previous mattresses. Comfort-wise, I'd put it on part with a $1,500+ "mattress store" brand, so I'm happy replacing it every few years and passing my old one on to someone who doesn't have a decent one. In fact, it's getting to be about that time...
(I hope this isn't too off-topic, but since we're talking about computer desks that accommodate unusual sitting positions...)
Has anyone found a good solution for positioning a mouse and keyboard in front of yourself while sitting on a recumbent exercise bike?
My primary use case is exercising while gaming. I can somewhat get by when playing mostly-mouse turned-based strategies; I put a table next to my bike and use the mouse on that. But it's not good to keep my shoulder at that angle for so long, and I'd like to also play games that require active use of the mouse + keyboard.
So far I haven't found a good match on the market. I could build one myself, but TBH I'd rather not spend the time right now to iterate on the design.
You could use a keyboard tray with an articulating arm, assuming you find some way to mount it to your bike. Humanscale makes nice ones, which can often be found at steep discount on ebay.
Thanks for the idea! I went to their website but didn't see any good matches. I've emailed them asking for suggestions and now I'm waiting to hear back.
The secret to anything in life is simple: Balance. Spend too much time at the extremes and negative results will follow.
This is no different. Sit too long; stand too long; lay down too long. All bad for you in the long term.
I switched from a sitting to a standing desk with a high chair. This allows me to switch between sitting and standing multiple times per day without having to fiddle with the motorized desk too much. I make it a point to go for a short walk a few times a day when I transition from sitting to standing. And exercise is key.
I've seen lots of these desks that allow you to lie down. From my perspective, this is a horrible idea unless there's a solid medical reason for it. In other words, someone with a condition that almost requires it. People in bed at extended care facilities develop all kinds of problems. This is no different. Almost every muscle in your body weakens. Not a good thing. I hate to think what happens to gamers who buy these desks and sit there for ten hours at a time playing. Horrible stuff.
Cool!
If I build (or buy) something like this I would just keep admiring it for days rather than focusing on my work.
A great work from home setup should just disappear and should not be a distraction between you and the work!
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[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 266 ms ] threadI know you can build in mounts for that stuff, but I think there's a lot of value in how dynamic desk surface is. Need 2 notepads so you can see things side by side? Cool, put it on the desk. Working on 2 laptops today, because you got a new one? Cool, put it on the desk.
I wonder if you could find a way to to make things stay put. Anything sticky would get all over your arms. Velcro seems usable if you put the soft side on the desk, but it's ugly. You could maybe use magnets that you embed into your stuff to increase the friction enough that they don't slide. Won't help with tea, but it should work for most other things. Modern monitors and computers without magnetic hard drive are okay with magnets, right? (I can't say for sure)
Well, you are lucky that floppies are a thing of the past ;-).
https://www.theonion.com/more-office-workers-switching-to-fe...
http://www.gastonlagaffe.com/fichiers/DatesGastonContenu/101...
Translated text: “He says that there’s nothing in the rules which forbids him to work in bed.”
(Image found on this page: http://www.gastonlagaffe.com/datesgaston.php#evenement1 – scroll down to 18 octobre 1957).
I still laugh. Perhaps true in part though.
You can bounce aroundd on it which is fun too as the seat is mounted on a spring like a pogo stick.
Apparently this bouncing helps keep the joints lubricated.
Some days I actually sit on it for 8-10 hours (I hate to admit it).
I do take breaks and it can become fatiguing so occasionally, I feel like having a slouch so I go lie on the floor or use a regular chair (with decent posture) for a break.
Probably what this chair has done for me the most is make sitting with bad posture feel noticeably strange and unnatural.
There must also be something to be said for the fact that there is a “ramp up” time. I don’t think I have a stronger back from using this chair alone, although I guess I do have a less damaged and atrophied one. I do remember a time when it felt like certain muscles were getting stronger. I vaguely remember it taking a few months to become comfortable.
It’s worth mentioning that I do a fair bit of weight training too and that I’ve had the chair for about 8 years.
(Just for the benefit of anyone interested and trying to search for it :))
Edit: You probably also should focus on core work too. Try some forearm planks to start.
your shoulders will shrug and round forwards, which will limit your range of motion over time. any stretch that retracts the scapula should help; also if you do any exercise like a row, make sure to focus on really pinching your scapula together.
your core muscles will weaken, leaving your spine more vulnerable to injury. "hunched forward" will become your default posture which exacerbates this further. your spine is actually really strong when it is aligned properly, but you need good core strength to do this. doing a "hollow body" pose and your basic plank are good ways to strengthen these muscles (overarching your spine in either direction is a problem).
I'd say anything that engages the core (superman, plank variations) and activates the upper back (YTWL's) would be good choices, ideally substituted with some stretches or mobility work
Forearm plank, side bridge, bird-dog, dead bug.
This video is a meta-analysis of the best rehab exercises for the glute muscles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgWSsaC3UJk
This page has pictures of the above mentioned PT exercises: https://mikereinold.com/5-common-core-exercise-mistakes-and-...
I recently did PT for lower back stuff mostly related to sitting for long periods.
I went from constant “3-4” level pain to “0-1” pain. I’m still working on strengthening, and re-injured my back moving something heavy, but PT was a game changer.
A lot of stretching like the above video shows, as well as working on posture, sleeping position, as well as just overall education on how my muscles work and what to do when I feel them tighten up or feel an area swelling up.
It’s mostly simple stuff but requires habit changes and can be time consuming so you have to fit it into regular routines. Stretching before/after bed, while you brush teeth, etc.
You look weird randomly stretching on a stair while you stir your tea, but it can make a big difference.
Among the many other things I had hammered into me about health when I was a kid in the late 1980s and 1990s that I've come to reject is the incessant hammerbeat about aerobics, aerobics, aerobics. I think the evidence is that the average person is better off with a lot more strength training, which will incidentally train you on some aerobics, and if you feel like occasionally folding some aerobics in, hey, go for it. They're not bad or anything. But they ought to be considered a specialist training, like working out legs specifically for biking, not a default that everybody do. Strength training is a default everybody should work on. Strength training isn't so you can lift 300 pounds when you help your friend move... it because it makes everything work better. You sleep better. Your back hurts less. You fall less. You build a better base for aging.
Similarly, I used to get eye strain from all the screen time. Until I moved to an office with a view and I found myself staring out whenever I would zone out to think. Now I'm working from home and don't have the same inducement to look out and my eyes have started bothering me again. I try to observe 20-20-20 (every 20 minutes spend 20 seconds looking at something 20 feet away) but it's not quite the same.
These days I just make time for moving outside of work and change my position at work. Standing desk, sitting on an exercise ball, sitting in a chair, repeat.
From his blog post:
> But while standing may be better than sitting, I like to at least start my day with something more active, and for more than a decade I’ve been making sure to walk for a couple of hours every morning. But how can I be productive while I’m walking? Well, nearly 15 years ago (i.e. long before it was popular!) I set up a treadmill with a computer in the room next to my office:
> The biomechanics weren’t too hard to work out. I found out that by putting a gel strip at the correct pivot point under my wrists (and putting the mouse on a platform) I can comfortably type while I’m walking. I typically use a 5% incline and go at 2 mph—and I’m at least fit enough that I don’t think anyone can tell I’m walking while I’m talking in a meeting. (And, yes, I try to get potentially frustrating meetings scheduled during my walking time, so if I do in fact get frustrated I can just “walk it off” by making the treadmill go a little faster.)
Only downside is that when having video meeting, my head is bouncing while walking. Usually leads the conversation on treadmill.
If you are suffering from back pain caused by sitting and have trouble sleeping, I used this video [1] to relieve the pain for a while. It helped so much that after 2-3 weeks of doing it every day 2-3 times, I was able to sleep normally again. I also slept on the ground for a while since my mattress was too soft. I now own a very firm mattress.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CO3racIlTcg
Supposedly it's good for patients that stay in bed for long periods without moving as it improves circulation, reduces back pain and prevents bed sores.
https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/304393-ces-2020-limo-for...
I could hardly believe it myself, but it is true.
The "local police may harass you anyway" part threw me off as I thought that's a reference to something actually happened.
Seems cool, but I prefer to drive myself. Maybe I'm not cut out to be an executive? IDK
If I had the space I'd consider it myself. Like you, I can drive five hours without stopping and be fine the whole way and when I get there.
It'd be nice if being comfortable at a computer all day was as easy as changing the seat but i don't believe that's true.
As someone who lives in the midwest, I have to disagree. Pick pretty much any random 100 mile stretch of I-70 or I-80 between the Appalachians and the Rockies and the majority of it will be straight enough that you could set the cruise and only have to turn the wheel a few degrees at most as long as traffic doesn't do anything stupid.
When I was younger and dumber I once drove from I-71 near Cleveland almost to Chicago with just my knee on the wheel. There's a kink about half way across Indiana that was the only real challenge.
Having recently (and historically many times before that) drove both I-70 and I-80 in the area indicated, I feel you’re being a bit hyperbolic. I’d agree both are as described for some 100 mile stretches (I-70 between Hays / Salina KS and I-80 between Lincoln / Grand Island NE as two examples), but not any random section.
>so basically just a desk that constantly moves around?
No, a desk that has a gyro grill attached.
Seriously though, one thing I did find was when I quit smoking my ability to solve complex problems at work went down for a while. I was no longer taking a forced 10 minute break every 60-90 minutes that let my brain reset. (Or explaining my problem out loud to another filthy smoker skulking around the back of the building :D )
Fortunately for me it was about the same time that the Pomodoro technique was featured on Lifehacker and I implemented a similar system to replace the regular nicotine craving induced breaks.
It might also be the lack of breaks too, but who knows.
[0]: https://doi.org/10.1093/ntr/nty134
I have an electric standing desk from ikea, and bought a walking pad (movable and foldable) for underneath.
I was scared that walking would make it too hard to read code, but it actually works really well. I would recommend it to everybody.
Mostly I walk about 30 min to an hour in the afternoon. The rest I sit.
https://medium.com/@truppr/long-sitting-how-it-affects-your-...
I'm a big guy, 6'4", and fidgety. Being tall, I learned early on good posture is crucial for a pain free back, as is strong back muscles. Between that and being always moving, I don't deal with a fraction of the body issues a lot of office workers seem to. The worst is long flights, because getting up and walking around at least once an hour is something I don't even have to think about, so planes aren't great for that. On planes I understand why people want comfort at their desk.
The sitting posture matters because the spine is kept erect naturally, like a vertical pendulum. Once you get used to it, it is a pretty relaxed posture that feels quite sustainable .. compared to sitting in any chair.
I've also taken to being fairly strict with a Pomodoro routine. 25 minutes focused (strictly locking down email!) work, 5 minutes when I get up and have a wander around the house. I think my attention is better, my eyes get a chance to rest, less aches.
The other thing I did was to start using mouse left-handed. I got terrible RSI with my right (I'm naturally right-handed) and actually although I'm slower with my left it's no bad thing - my movement is more considered, less jerky, and I think has a lower impact on anything likely to trigger RSI.
So yeh, I think I'm ok for a death-trap lying down desk, thanks anyway...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure_ulcer
There's a reason the guy in the image is like 90+ years old and either suffers from immobility and/or nerve issues. Anyone more healthy than that would feel the need to squirm and get up long before one would form.
Also, the way we sit in a chair isn't exactly activating any muscles over just laying down or reclining in a La-z-boy. For that reason I do like the idea of sitting on one of those inflatable yoga balls when I'm not standing.
I bet you could burn an extra 200 calories a day just incidentally bouncing as you ponder HN.
It’s folks who are bedridden and don’t have the ability to move themselves around that get pressure ulcers. Combine that with poor circulation and potential nerve damage (diabetes) and it’s not hard to do.
A health 35 year old? You’d have to force yourself to get a pressure ulcer.
I've now come to the conclusion that low latency video glasses/headset connected as external display to the laptop/smartphone is a better solution for that problem as it doesn't require any of these contraptions; But I'm still in search of one[1].
[1]https://needgap.com/problems/16-wearable-low-latency-display...
Disclaimer: I'm an investor in Immersed, but I invested because I loved the product!
But, those who have no issues with VR might indeed find immersedvr useful.
Thanks, now I'm intrigued. I'll have to checkout Quest soon.
[1]https://needgap.com/problems/7-simulation-sickness-in-vr-and...
The real problem is no VR headset has a resolution high enough to come even close to what a normal monitor would provide dpi wise.
I guess you have to find a low weight VR set though.
I completely get it because of how easy it is to get lost in the VR experience and forget about the outside worlds. Seems great for productivity. Might have to try it out sometime.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0109Y3CCE/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b...
https://www.amazon.com/Glasses-Horizontal-Watching-Reading-S...
For people suffering from severe RSI -- especially those for whom essentially any amount of sitting in one class (say "sitting"), even in difference positions within that class -- becomes unbearable for more than an hour or so -- then this 33 percent can be of significant impact.
Also - for some people standing just doesn't work (for more than very short intervals). So in fact the lying option provides significantly more respite potential (50 percent).
Google "pressure ulcer" / "bedsore".
Really? Then let me be the first:
IT'S "LYING DOWN", FFS!
You can be laying down the law, but on a bed you are usually "lying down".
This has been a public service announcement, et cetera, et cetera.
Edit: I was actually confused by the title of the submission which is illustrative of the distinction between the two words.
To me, a lay down desk is a desk that can be laid flat, and that's what I thought this was going to be. Some kind of desk that could be easily collapsed to make space.
Whereas, a lie down desk is a desk you lie down to use.
I really was not expecting a lay down desk to be something you lie down to use.
The past tense of "lie" is "lay", which is where the confusion comes from, whereas the past tense of "lay" is "laid". Handy chart[1].
After I laid bricks this morning, I was tired and lay down.
Not: *After I layed bricks this morning, I was tired and lied down.
[1]: https://grammarist.com/usage/lay-lie/
So, you lie in bed, but you lay something down.
The two different verbs tenses are confusing though:
lie, lay (past), lain (past participle). You lay in bed last night or had lain in bed.
lay, laid (past and past participle).
Also, to get laid is something that often happens while lying in bed. And of course, lie has multiple meanings, and people will sometime lie to get laid and then lie in bed to do so.
(English is lunatic language.)
Perfectly reasonable.
The biggest problem was that if I used it for any length of time, my stomach core was in agony!
At first it looks really flimsy and jumbled together. But on closer inspection it seems more stable, and ultimately the proof of the pudding is in the tasting.
Then for ultimate convenience (laziness) I connected a bluetooth presentation clicker to my iPad to turn the pages for me so I didn't have to keep reaching up or take my arms out from under the blanket on cold nights. In two years it's never dropped.
Is there a way to use the clicker with the kindle?
I keep thinking of assembling about the same thing, but missed the warm-blanket factor. Now I definitely must do it.
This must be today's "most HN" comment.
- Dismisses a new project that simplifies a task and makes it more approachable to non-technical folks (Like the famous Dropbox comment [0])
- Is extremely pedantic and serves only as a distraction from a discussion
- Argues in favor of pure functional programming
- Misses obvious sarcasm, even when the /s is included.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9224
- tries to come up with an overly precise technical definition of something entirely subjective and unserious.
;-)
There's always someone that's religious about their particular technical choices.
* dismisses the thought by referring to the commenter's privilege for having it in the first place, rather than commenting on the value or feasibility of the thought itself.
Can you think of any other community where someone can discuss the damage of a CRT monitor falling into your face with terms like "scale linearly" and everybody just nods in agreement?
I think it's delightful, one of the little pleasures of hanging around here.
And some of the later generation CRTs breached 20" and were a good 30+kg.
Sony's 24" GDM-FW900 was a pretty incredible 42kg.
I use them for reading in bed, although sites do everything in their power to make landscape mode on mobile phones unusable.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belay_glasses
I have a standing desk that earns me a closed cyan ring every day.
Cool project, but would not be one that I would use.
Is this referring to some tracking software?
In my experience, I've found a MS Surface and a gooseneck ipad holder is a lightweight ideal laydown desk. I clamp the gooseneck a few feet above me in bed and I can lay perfectly flat and have access to a full PC.
It also can be disassembled and stored in moments.
Could you please point me to your choice of stickers, or mention the brand? I desperately need some bumps on the current keyboard and thought of messing with glue and plastic, but it hasn't occurred to me that someone already made a finished solution for that. From searching, I now see a bunch of related stuff, like braille and such, so it would help to narrow it down to more suitable products.
Laying down and typing is at a weird angle so you can't quickly check that your fingers are aligned right. It is just easier to have a tactile anchor at the far end of the keyboard, particularly when typing fast.
It doesn't take much, just the smallest sticker can change the feel of a key.
It was incredibly comfortable, and uncomfortably decadent at the same time.
Now we have adjustable beds and a TV in the bedroom, so that's easier.
I did look into the AltWork setup mentioned. At $7000 (or $4500 for manual option), it's quite expensive but not that bad if amortized over a 20 year period of working 8 hours a day. Investment in long-term health is worth it if the product works as it should and lasts the expected amount of time.
Aside from my wife not wanting it in our apartment (I understand), there isn't enough evidence that zero gravity workstations improve health versus just a good ergonomic chair (ie. an adjustable chair that fits your body) and desk (adjustable and gets low enough to support 90° elbow angle without hitting your legs). In all cases, one needs to take breaks to stretch and move around, not to mention daily exercise.
Went with a HM Embody (armless) chair and IKEA Skarsta hand crank desk instead; zero regrets and I wish I got them earlier (especially the Embody)!
https://altwork.com/products/signature-series?variant=316179...
I bought an AltWork earlier this year when COVID hit and it's been pretty fantastic. Currently standing at it. 5 stars would reccomend!
That said, for lying down, you really want a trackball mouse (the alternative is to dock the mouse when not in use, which is OK if you mostly use the keyboard for everything).
My intuition is that as people's standard of living improve, bedding is one of those things that gets easily overlooked when you can't afford it but is somewhere investing some "real" money returns a good result.
I went from using the bed from my parents' house (which was a hand-me-down) to a dorm bed (briefly) to the absolute cheapest thing I could get my hands on that wasn't stained brown or covered in bugs. It wasn't until I was relatively successful and making ~$80k / year that I felt like it was reasonable to invest in a nice mattress, and even then, I came to the conclusion that the "mattress store" beds were way overpriced and had little to differentiate them.
I ended up with a memory foam bed off Amazon. It was ~$200 for a queen and I've had it for about five years. The biggest issue I have with it is that the fabric seems to take stains more readily than my previous mattresses. Comfort-wise, I'd put it on part with a $1,500+ "mattress store" brand, so I'm happy replacing it every few years and passing my old one on to someone who doesn't have a decent one. In fact, it's getting to be about that time...
If you need a desktop monitor, you can get an over-bed table and mount a small VESA mounting arm.
If you can spend 1k, the absolute best is to get a medical VESA arm and mount it to the wall. These can also have trays for keyboard and mouse.
https://products.multibrackets.com/en/wallmounts/flexarms-ve...
Has anyone found a good solution for positioning a mouse and keyboard in front of yourself while sitting on a recumbent exercise bike?
My primary use case is exercising while gaming. I can somewhat get by when playing mostly-mouse turned-based strategies; I put a table next to my bike and use the mouse on that. But it's not good to keep my shoulder at that angle for so long, and I'd like to also play games that require active use of the mouse + keyboard.
So far I haven't found a good match on the market. I could build one myself, but TBH I'd rather not spend the time right now to iterate on the design.
[0] https://compete.kotaku.com/15-years-later-heres-why-a-gamer-...
This is no different. Sit too long; stand too long; lay down too long. All bad for you in the long term.
I switched from a sitting to a standing desk with a high chair. This allows me to switch between sitting and standing multiple times per day without having to fiddle with the motorized desk too much. I make it a point to go for a short walk a few times a day when I transition from sitting to standing. And exercise is key.
I've seen lots of these desks that allow you to lie down. From my perspective, this is a horrible idea unless there's a solid medical reason for it. In other words, someone with a condition that almost requires it. People in bed at extended care facilities develop all kinds of problems. This is no different. Almost every muscle in your body weakens. Not a good thing. I hate to think what happens to gamers who buy these desks and sit there for ten hours at a time playing. Horrible stuff.
Avoid the extremes at all costs.