Ask HN: Best HVAC system for a new house?
I know nothing about building houses. I've never even bought a house. However, we bought some land, got an architect to draft up some custom plans, now we're in the bidding phase.
What sorts of HVAC systems are out there and as a nerd/engineer, should I want a completely analog system or 'state of the art' HVAC system or something in between?
Besides the usual, I'd like as much fine grained control over different parts of the house, at the very least control separately the temperatures in the basement, 1st and 2nd floor.
81 comments
[ 0.26 ms ] story [ 130 ms ] threadBest in what way? Efficiency? Comfort? Initial Cost? Maintenance? Air quality?
If you would like a list of resources to dive into this let me know!
If you're in a climate that gets colder than that, get either baseboard heaters, or a zoned boiler system, for backup heat for when the heat pumps can't keep up during cold weather. Which option makes the most sense will depend on how cold it gets and for how long.
Also a quick note on heating in colder climates - take note of what's available in your local area. Electric heating may not be the most cost effective (or most reliable) option in winter.
Honestly, all of the controls for residential mini split systems are pretty awful. My Mitsubishi system has the MHK1 thermostat [2] which is Mitsubishi specific version of the traditional Honeywell thermostat. The newer MHK2 looks a bit more modern, but honestly isn't really any different in function.
1: http://www.daikinac.com/content/residential/residential-cont... 2: http://www.nonul.mylinkdrive.com/item/MHK1.html
I'm building a new house in Northern Europe (it regularly gets to -25c/-5F in winter) and will we be using a Daikin Altherma 3R air source heat pump to provide hot water, underfloor heating, and air conditioning - all from a single heat pump.
Living in the Pacific Northwest I'm able to get by with no AC but need decent heat. When I lived in California, air conditioning was kind of a must but heat was pretty much an afterthought.
Ideally, engineer your house so you don't need a powerful HVAC system to be comfortable. We have (amazing) insulation so we don't need any air conditioning, but it gets a bit chilly so we are working on installing radiant heat in the floor.
They have come a long way too. I have one from QuiteCool Systems - instead of a fan bolted directly to the attic rafters with crappy metal louvers that rattle and don't block out drafts when not in operation, it has a powerful fan on a segment of ductwork - when you install you install it so there is a 90 degree bend in the ductwork and it attenuates the vast majority of fan noise. Indeed, I hear more from the motor rumble through the rafters in the attic where it's mounted than I do from the fan/air noise.
It comes with an insulated and highly efficient damper too. The system took less than an hour to install and I was easily able to pull power from an outlet in my hall, put in a switch then continue to the attic with the fan.
https://quietcoolsystems.com/
Mine has more than paid for itself - less than 650 watts vs over 2800 watts if both my AC units are running. The only problem I have is my house is a little over 2800 square feet and if I let it get warm (say I am not home and close the house up then come home hours later) the single fan I have is not powerful enough to cool - I need to add a second unit so I have better peak air flow.
I think I will add the unit that has two smaller fans, then at night when I still would like a little airflow but not a hurricane I can have more a gentle breeze. Needing to have more control over airflow at night is something I didn't anticipate. I have tied my home automation system in - I can read the temperature from my Nest thermostats and turn the fan on/off as needed. I also have the scripts check the status of windows/doors through my alarm system. One danger is if you have gas appliances that are not direct vented you can back draft them - my water heater is in my basement and it's not direct vented - it relies on a flue so you need to be careful you don't reverse the flow in the flue. I have a couple of extra CO2 monitors in the basement and after five years have never seen a blip but it is something to be aware of with any gas appliance. Heck if your house isn't balanced a bathroom fan can cause a backdraft in a flue.
Heat: the best by far is under floor heating (hot water not electric). Each room will have its own thermostat. There will be no cold spots, it will just feel cozy. No air is being cycled around the room keeping dust down.
Ventilation: indoor pollution is usually many multiples of outdoor. You want a an MVHR (or MEV) system to exchange the air in the house for fresh air with low heat (energy) loss.
AC: You need to move cold air around for this unfortunately. Pumping chilled water through your under floor heating pipes risks condensation in crawl spaces, and even if it doesn’t it simply doesn’t work very well. (Source: I had ‘radiant cooling’ ceiling panels in my last house.) I would look into a mini-duct or ductless AC system so you can control each room individually.
In climates that require heat and cooling, it is far more cost effective to go with a standard HVAC system, unfortunately, as you’ll be putting ducts throughout the house for AC. (Why put a separate system in for heating when you could just move hot air around?) But if you want the best, not cheapest, solution you really want under floor heating.
Can you expand on this? What is polluting the indoors? How can I verify it's true at my home?
Tiny mites find those flakes, cover them in enzymes that break down skin, then wait for them to break down enough to eat.
When a puff of air lifts the dust into your lungs, those digestive enzymes attack your lungs.
Your body produces extra mucus in response, to trap dust on the way in, and inflames the tissue surrounding any damage to prevent infection taking hold. Neither response is pleasant.
I suppose I should just eat all my food delivery now?
If you live in a moderate climate, rather than an HEV, you can likely get away with just running bathroom exhaust fans for a portion of the day; you can get switches that will do this automatically.
1: https://www.amazon.com/Hydrofarm-Autopilot-Desktop-Monitor-L...
Underfloor systems applied directly to concrete subfloors will take many hours to change temperature. In climates with a large spread between daytime and nighttime temperatures, such underfloor heating systems will either overheat the building during the day or be unable to ramp up quickly enough to heat at night.
Also be aware that underfloor heating systems are only compatible with a subset of flooring materials and don't like area rugs.
I don't get this. Moving air around your home is absolutely wonderful.
Even if you have no heating or cooling going on, keeping a constant flow of air helps keep dust down by filtering it, helps even the temperature (maybe part of your home heats up in the afternoon) and most importantly keeps the CO2 levels consistent.
If I turn my HVAC fan off, any room I'm in will climb to almost 1000 ppm CO2 in hours. If I leave the fan on, every room stays well below 600 ppm.
Flipping the fan switch from "auto" to "on" on my thermostat has been one of the best quality of life improvements ever.
I agree with you though that anyone with a central HVAC system should consider leaving the fan in 'On' mode. Also occasionally opening a window and/or running bathroom exhaust fans will allow the hvac system to pull in more outside air. Normally they have a fresh air inlet, but if the house is sealed up well, it will have positive pressure, so little external air will be pulled in. An HEV will do this more efficiently, but if you live in a moderate climate, simply using a window or exhaust fan along with the hvac fan is probably sufficient.
Why water? My neighbour has electric and it works great (besides higher cost). No danger of broken pipes, no central unit to heat & move the water.
Loops in new construction are out of synthetic pipes that are one continuous piece - no joints other than at the manifolds. Most systems have the pipes installed in concrete (yes, there is lightweight concrete for floors with wood joists; I've considered it) so unless you are deliberately stupid you aren't going to puncture the piping. Water in the system also counts towards the systems overall thermal mass to, helping keep the heat consistent.
Since few people seem to experience radiant heat it's pretty hard to state just how different it is and feels. It's amazingly comfortable.
The new trends are as follows:
HRV (heat recovery ventilators) are pretty in. Basically they are auxiliary units that source outside fresh air or exhaust stale air when there is a heat differential between a specific heating/cooling zone and the outside temps. So if you are in a basement that is cold and the outside is hot it will just bring in outside air instead of turning on the heater.
Radiant floor heating and radiant cooling zones are also in. And run water through Your floors to heat or cool zones. It is one of the most efficient ways to heat a structure and feels good as well.
Geothermal is also pretty in for high-end residences but there is a high first cost to evaluate geothermal potential.
Most of these new technologies are usually coupled with standard split-systems or VRF systems and add additional efficiency (life cycle cost value) over the span of occupancy but have higher first costs .
Lastly— always consider passive heating and cooling strategies they are highest value options (insulation , shading, glazing specs , solar orientation , landscaping , etc.)
Uh. Purpose of the HRV is to attempt to preserve the inside heat (usually both latent and sensible, using a rotating exchanger wheel) while bringing in fresh outside air.
They allow you to seal the building up really good, which is good for energy efficiency, without having insufficient ventilation and getting high CO2 levels.
Because they're not perfectly efficient, you can use them to move the inside temp closer to outside-- but just plain outside air exchange would do it better. :)
I was talking with our high end GC in Texas and they basically said Geothermal for heat exchange never seems to pan out for clients after the numbers are run. This seemed surprising to me.
Some of the other stuff you mentioned came up, we also talked about if homogeneous household temperature was something we cared about because keeping the whole house 68 is way more intensive than having some variance in different spots of the house.
Also breezeways are awesome in hot climates.
Horizontal loops are much simpler, but require more land area than your typical suburban plot.
The Austin average temperature is essentially room temperature, and the deviation is much less, so the total amount of heating/cooling you have to do is much less, so any efficiency advantage is reduced by the smaller need to heat/cool. This compounds with the fact that the average yearly temperature is closer to the outside air temperature, which makes the advantage of the ground source less.
This compounds with the fact that Texas energy prices are some of the lowest in the country, and it makes it a lot harder to justify a big capital expense to reduce these costs.
If I ever have the chance I will have radiant floor heating. Once you experience it you won't ever want any other kind of heat. The colder it is outside, the better it feels - it's the ultimate luxury IMNSHO.
I think/thought radiant cooling is still pretty "experimental". I think in certain climates it can cause the pipes to "sweat" a lot.
If you want to see some ultra high-end stuff, you can check out this YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrG7oG8Tvp8
Here's their video on radiant cooling (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPC0_LxlwIY).
Not sure how to word this - but my understanding is that the stuff on his channel is pretty cutting-edge. Most builders use older/time tested materials and methods. You may get weird looks if you start asking your contractor about the things you see in his videos.
Also, everything is very climate specific. Mini-splits won't work if you're building a home in a very cold climate, etc. If you have the money, there are HVAC engineers that will do a way better job than a local installer. If you don't, I'd just check reviews and go with a HVAC contractor with a good reputation.
Radiant cooling is definitely the most comfortable way to cool. In addition, it only requires small pipes for air circulation as the air is not used for the actual cooling. Thus less issues with drafts and space requirements.
If I would build my own home and money isn’t tight then I would definitely go for a radiant cooling system.
Thought you need to find a company with experience installing those systems. Since moving to the US I mostly see split systems. I’m not sure how many contractor here have experience with radiant coling systems.
AC is not very common, so that might play a factor. The efficiency loss is more acceptable if it means you can get some cooling in the summer.
A separate device called an air-side economizer can be added to a central air conditioner system. It can save energy when it’s colder and dryer outside a building than inside. When conditions are right, cold, dry outside air is pulled in and warm building air is exhausted reducing the need to run the AC compressor.
Air-Side Economizer | Products | ENERGY STAR https://www.energystar.gov/products/low_carbon_it_campaign/1...
Relevant best practices to prevent problems by thermal dilatations in radiant floors: using the right amount of mortar aditives, using an approved isolant base for the pipes and using a foam stripe between walls and radiant floor.
[0] Concrete = cement + sand + water + small rocks and often uses a grid made of structural steel.
But, all of those lines feeding different zones end up heating other zones along the way. I feel that it is often too hot in many parts of the house. The boiler is in a separate room in the basement. And that room gets very hot and ultimately the entire basement is too warm.
Its a neat system, but ultimately, and for all of its promises and nice parts, it doesn't actually seem like the most effective system.
I'm not sure what the answer is, but I know that I would love to have multiple, separately-controlled zones in my house. Even if the method is not the most advanced or efficient, it seems better than needlessly heating parts of a home that don't need it or overheating some parts to ensure others get warm enough.
(You might get less out of this if you're in a place that boomed with air conditioning, but still there are lessons to learn from the indigenous architecture[1] of your region.)
[1] https://www.amazon.com/Native-American-Architecture-Peter-Na...
Winter: warm air comes in from the bottom vent, goes out from the top vent
Summer: cool air comes in from the top vent, goes out from the bottom vent
This dual inlet/outlet role from the same vent will have to be managed by some kind of valves/directer-plates inside the ducts.
a smart thermostat in every room
Vent open/close percentage controlled by each room's temperature (essentially vent acts like a per-room thermostat, while the main thermostat controls the overall/average temperature).
Disclaimer: I'm not an HVAC person.
When you stand up, your face feels hot, feet are cold.
On more thought, I guess making hot air exit from top is always easier. So no need to switch: air comes in from the bottom vent (hot in winter, cool in summer) and out from the top?
Winter: lower vents on (one inlet, one outlet). upper closed.
Summer: upper vents on (one inlet, one outlet). lower closed.
The vents should be far apart to ensure cirulation (definitely not next to each other).
I believe it comes in mini-split varieties but I did not choose that option as it was more expensive and I didn't like the aesthetics.
I don't know the scope of your project but consider getting a mechanical plan drawn up. Most residential projects don't have them and in my opinion (I've been building since 1999) it's a lost opportunity for a better, more efficient installation.
Something you should also do is make sure the place has really good insulation and windows/doors.
Or you can spend a lot more money and do what the top comment says.
Now that was a lame joke. But seriously you can find better answers in Reddit or other specialized communities.
In the PNW my todo wishlist is heat pump + zoned underfloor radiant + on demand gas boiler for supplementary heat and household water supply. TBD on cooling via ceiling/floor loops or separate wall mounted chiller/evaporator units.
I had gas fired boiler + radiant heat + supplementary resistive heating in each bedroom. I’m currently living with 3 zoned mini splits. Honestly happy enough with both, but structural radiant heat is just the best for comfort.
As a rule of thumb, as an Architect (the real one), I would start by using the best insulation you can afford. In a good percentage of inhabited places this will guarantee you a livable if not a confortable home. Then, according to your climate and economic environment (wood and derivates, gas, fuel, coal and electricity prices are highly variable depending of your specific location) invest in an heating source.
For cooling, multi-zone mini-splits are hard to beat. Per room control. Most of them are variable speed so they are exceptional at dehumidification in the summer. The heat pump capabilities on them are also tend to be significantly better than traditional HVAC systems. I've added them on to a few rooms and my garage; if I ever build another home or have to do a significant remodel/replacement of an HVAC system I will go with mini-splits. Also no ductwork in unconditioned spaces. If you do go with traditional HVAC and are going to have ductwork in traditionally unconditioned spaces like an attic, look at the recent trends in treating traditionally unconditioned spaces like attics/crawl spaces as condition spaces - there have been a lot of advances in insulation, ventilation, etc.
Finally as many others mentioned, if you are building a new home it should be a tight home (tight from air infiltration/leakage) so a heat recovery ventilator is a must.
An excellent YouTuber to peruse for lots of great ideas on how to improve on home building is Matt Risigner - I think he goes by The Build Show. There are lots of TV shows and people on YouTube pimping building advice but he's pretty approachable to even those not familiar with construction at all, and I haven't seen him hand out what I would consider off the wall or crazy advice - but he still will push the bounds of what is considered best practices in the industry.
Upgrading the right materials for your home can have a HUGE impact. A couple years back there was that major hurricane in Florida and there was the house that the homeowner spent about 20% more on and his survived, and all this neighbors for blocks were literally flattened. Even if you don't have major storms to worry about, well built homes are significantly more comfortable, healthier (I recently had a mold issue due to inadequate ventilation), and could even save you money on heating/cooling.
And best of all (especially since I have allergies) it exhausts all the vacuumed air outside.
Central vacuums are far more powerful than any hand operated vacuum you can get - and like a said a heck of a lot quieter too.