I think people in Europe underestimate just what a CRAZY place the US is. It's basically a third-world country with a first-world economy. You feel unsafe on the streets, and you have to be alert all the time. A lot of people in the US are just plain nuts, just look at who they voted for. Obviously, its positive sides are also crazy good. Before Trump, they voted for Obama. I guess it is a place for young people and gamblers.
There is a difference between suffering from terrorist attacks, and letting it change your way of life so that the NSA can snoop on your citizens in an unprecedented way, and you are starting to build a wall somewhere at the Mexican border.
And don't forget we have concentration camps. That's prisons for non-citizens, we also have lots of citizens in prison too. More prisoners per capita than any other country. We are the world's police.
Well regarding illegal immigration, Europe is straight up fascism. We dump refugees to open prisons on islands. There's not a single country that is so relaxed view on illegal immigration like USA, keeping borders is common sense in the rest of the world, not even a discussion. The immigration crisis was a temporary thing, because there were just too many people coming at once.
I dont know, but the article says the women lived as illegal for two decades - that doesn't even happen here. More often than not our 'ice' does the job and people approve it.
Here's a brief reality check: the U.S. and its european allies have been exporting crime and terrorism to southwest asia and northeast africa for almost twenty years now, entirely for the benefit of private corporations. And sure, maybe it's more comfortable to go into denial about what really has been happening over the past two decades, but why settle for comfortable denial when you can embrace the whole truth and feel happy? Feel happy that you're where you are, and they're where they are. We're so lucky to have been randomly born in such good circumstances. Think about it. We might have been randomly born in Yemen, and in that case we would have been thoroughly fucked. Do you feel happy? There are a lot of people suffering right now for our benefit. It would be wasteful to feel anything but joy.
Trust me, I am because I come from the part of Europe that didn't do as well as west, and I can appreciate even the fact that I'm here and can live freely, I know how much worse it can get.
Maybe it is not so much the NSA, but German secret services do pretty much snoop everything they can get their noses into. The only reason that they couldn't collect as much as the NSA was inferior technical capability, not a lack of will or legal options. Everything that happened after Snowden and associated scandals was that the formerly "maybe-legal" status quo was written into law as definitely legal...
Europe is currently building walls along the southern (Ceuta, Mellila) and southeastern (Greece-Turkey, Hungary) borders, and relying on the mediterranean to act as such. It may not be a concerted effort, European politics is very much split up over the refugee situation. But even in the most pro-refugee countries, enforcing some boundaries and borders is still accepted by a majority.
For people downvoting my parent post, here's something to research.
From reading news reports over the past several decades, there's a pattern of civil war when the Muslim population exceeds 5% in a region, since they want their own community. Political Islam is not compatible with any secular system, and adherents are commanded to destroy competing systems and religions.
France's Muslim population is approaching 11%. Already French women are harrassed when walking down the street in many areas outside Paris as Muslim men don't want "gender mixing", and there are continual fatal attacks.
It's estimated there have been 31,000 attacks world-wide by Muslims since 9/11. It's odd that I haven't heard any from other religions.
If you don't understand the above as civil war rather than terrorism, then you need to do your own research to understand the events that are happening around you.
I'd like a reason as to why this is flagged. Everything I said is verifiable.
As far as international policy, the French were colonialists in French Indochina, while the US was just red-baited in, so the intentions of the US (though indicative of blundering stupidity) were not as bad.
Lol. You clearly don’t know anything about Europe or you are a European who uses Google to understand what it means to live in America. People in Europe are AT LEAST as crazy as the “silly Americans” shown on the Telly. I have grown up in America and Europe and there is literally no difference in the people, only how things are shown on tv
I wouldn't bother trying to convince these people. From being on this board, I am starting to feel that the US is incredibly anti-Europe. I mean, the US is the country that single handedly created the refugee crisis in Europe by bombing the s* out of the middle east and Libya in the past 20 years, while not accepting any of the responsibilities. Also, would a supposed ally (the US) really threaten to invade the Netherlands if the ICC decided to investigate US of its wrongdoings?
The problem is that Americans cannot see any faults or wrong in their society. It is truly blind faith much like a religion. Astonishing levels of stupidity all over.
One of the dumbest statements I have seen on this website. I genuinely do not know how someone can read this comment and hit the reply button. Nice generalities about Americans. Too bad it literally makes no sense lmao. Try looking at the statements you want to make and assess if you are actually saying something with purpose and intent rather than vomitting in the comment section
Found another crazy head. You started decently but ended up just saying more random biased points. I also do not know where you get the idea USA is anti European. I don really get that anywhere. I will tell you for a fact that many Europeans spend their entire life ignoring their own countries politics and only comment on Americans and the politics of America ( another separate problem) there is no stereotype of a European for an American but there 10000 percent is the other way. All these comments about America vs USA just expose commentators with their random assumptions about how other countries are.
"But ended up saying random biased points", can you point me which one exactly? Has the US been at war in the middle east in the past 20 years or not? Is the US accepting refugees from the middle east as a consequence of their actions (the answer is no, while refugees are still flooding into Europe)? Has the US opted out of the ICC and threatened invade the Netherlands? https://thefrontierpost.com/the-hague-invasion-act-dutch-in-...
I think you will find that all of what I mentioned to be true, and it's your exact attitude that I get the idea that the US is anti Europe. Also, your comment is clearly against the site guidelines, I am surprised that your comment has not been flagged yet.
If I'm walking around by myself at 1 or 2am here in Trondheim, no one says a thing to me. I do not get stopped by cops, nor do they slow down to check. Random men don't stop their cars pretending to be concerned for a woman walking around by themselves at night.
If someone does, I don't feel I need to be suspicious of most folks that offer help.
I don't have to worry about going broke due to health care, nor if I get sick and have to miss work.
Yeah, sure, people are still idiots and can be self-centered little turds. I'm no exception. But culture makes a difference. The way society treats different groups - like armed white supremacist militias - differs. Approaches to policing and prisons and rights differ. All this makes a difference in the way folks in that society treats others.
If everyone were truly the same, culture shock wouldn't be a thing.
I'd also like to state that Europe is a big place, with a wide variety of cultures and laws and customs. Living in Greece is going to be different than the Netherlands, which are both different from Norway.
Edit: For clarifacation, am American, and have lived in Norway for some years.
Trondheim is 180k or something. Not an issue at all.
I was only a tourist in Amsterdam, but in general, walking around there at night wasn't an issue and cops didn't harass nor follow me. Folks (other tourists) were honestly worse during the day.
I've been pulled over and asked what I was doing out at night in the states, and multiple times got stopped to ask if I needed a lift because I was a woman. (seriously). I had folks worried about my safety... walking home a mile in a town of 3000 - leaving at 10:00pm.
The dude has no idea what he is talking about. I’m not gunna be like USA is an amazing place but there is some derangement syndrome going on about how people think life is like in different countries. People actually believe Europe is this perfect establishment and USA is a death sentence for black men. Europeans are crazy as Americans lmao. It’s just you need to compare USA to all of Europe and suddenly the differences in how people
Act are less. And this is my theory, I garuntee random Americans are kinder and more generous than a random European. I would be willing to put money
On that
The "dude that has no idea what he is talking about" is me.
I'm American. I'm a white female, and I now live in Northern Europe.
The only time I've had guns drawn on me by cops is when I've been with someone with dark skin, and statistically, you are more likely to be shot by cops if you are black. There is definite differences.
I've had folks help me in the states, I've had fake help because I'm female, and been stopped for being out late. No one bats an eye here, and I*m in the largest city I've lived in. No one goes out of their way to help in the states for the most part, and people won't vote to allow folks to even have a safety net nor healthcare.
In comparison, if I lose my hat at a bus stop, it'll probably be there waiting for me the next day here. (had the experience). I fell on a bike and someone stopped to make sure I was OK. I don't get harassed at bars by myself and I don't get harassed walking home from a bar.
Last time I came through customs was coming home from Amsterdam, and the guy was nice to me while he searched my stuff. I didn't feel the danger and apprehension that I get with American cops.
Sure, people are crazy here just like they are everywhere - which I've stated - but society as a whole is way nicer and more helpful and overall, fewer people treat me badly for being weird. (Am an immigrant, and everywhere has their buttheads, but most folks are nice).
Edit: I'll add that folks here don't randomly say hi on the street nor talk at bus stops. This isn't folks being nice in the states, but talking at people. People don't ask me "how are you" unless they are interested in an answer. Many parts of the US are full of superficial, fake niceties and this isn't friendly. It is just fake, and I'm rude if I don't want to take part.
I was born in Denmark, moved to Germany when I was 6, lived in Germany for 4 years (step-father in American Air Force), moved to U.S, lived in Illinois, Utah, Oregon and California (S.F), have an Italian Wife and spend a good amount of time in Southern Italy, lived in U.S 20+ years, moved back to Denmark 20 years ago.
I agree that there is no difference in the people if you mean that they are all hominids who for the most part speak languages to communicate and eat with their mouths and defecate with their hindquarters.
But otherwise every writer on the matter since Tocqueville seems convinced there are significant differences and I am in agreement, the only person I can think of that agrees with you is Vincent Vega, and he's fictional with an itchy trigger finger.
As an european, I often picture myself US like a mix between european culture and japanese culture. The brand and flavor is european, but everything is pushed to the extreme (from an european point of view) like in Japan.
U.S. culture, at least its inception, is best viewed through a lens of reacting to European culture. Especially in an intellectually-driven anti-aristocratic way. Not the populist anti-aristocratic way of the French Revolution that followed the American Revolution.
That pattern seems to repeat itself as an anti-globalist revolution in the present, and one closer to the French Revolution in some aspects.
US culture is driven by lack of social interaction. People in rural areas have few interactions with others and don't like rules that limit their own immediate freedoms (to not wear masks, to discriminate, etc.) to keep society safe and in harmony. Due to this effect, older big cities are more "European," newer cities are less "European," and outside of cities, you'll see a lot more people range from "but my freedoms" to actively antisocial.
Here, I'm using "European" in the "Western European" sense like you presumably are. Eastern Europeans have an anti-Communist bent that resembles rural Americans' behavior.
Maybe I got that impression when I was walking from my flat to Pittsburgh university on one of the main roads with plenty of shops left and right, a car stopped and a naked black woman was thrown out of the car and landed 10 meters in front of me on the pavement. Maybe I got that impression when at the same corner my San Francisco dorm flat was, somebody got shot and bled out right there. Maybe I got that impression when I was crossing the street and the driver who was clearly seeing me accelerated and I saved myself by jumping to the side.
I've lived in several major US cities and have never felt unsafe in any way. Feels pretty similar to Canada, main difference is that the news is more toxic, and the west coast has more visible tents than what I'm used to.
On some further introspection, this is probably a good moment for a break from HN for me. There is just too much crap out there, and I need to focus all of my time on creating something much better instead of writing HN comments of questionable value.
Maybe it is just the "movies" perspective, the "wild-west cowboy riding into the sunset" and "hippies relaxing on a california beach with a guitar and some pot" stereotypes are transported frequently. The "white supremacist manning a checkpoint" not so much, or at least only in movies that are meant to be fictional/endtime/faraway.
Also, seen from europe, it may be hard to get an accurate picture. The media do not really transport the perspective of the inhabitants accurately. And perception of the media is often skewed towards the more positive end, one tends to ignore negative information that contradicts one's premade impression. Even people you know who tell you about a foreign country will usually gloss over the bad stuff and dwell on the good.
> Living in Portland was also the first time I felt noticed for being in a mixed-race marriage.
Somehow, I can help but invariably notice the lack of mixed-races relationships in US movies et tv series, even to this day where diversity representation (slowly) improves in these mediums.
> We took our seven-year-old to family friendly protests.
Maybe those were family-friendly to join (Proud Boys' we're probably too) but they're anti-family and pro-State in effect.
The fact that you joined Antifa protests shows you know nothing about true liberalism. Perhaps the time would have been spent better teaching your kid about the U.S. Constitution.
Though the article brought out some interesting facts about Portland, I don't know why they didn't consider going 500km north. Sure, it's a little colder, and outside major cities not always well integrated, but it has all the attributes they were looking for, while being a lot less bonkers.
Everything about this article so Portland. Starting with getting duped by the West Coast’s fraudulent “laid back” reputation. Or that they saw some cultural jest and assumed that something as big and complicated a city could be the twee character it’s exaggerated into for effect. Going in not knowing that the local terrain is constantly trying to kill you and wildfires are just one of the many tools it will use. Thinking social unrest should still be kid friendly. The list goes on, all the way to writing a disappointed immigrant exposé in a paper like The Guardian. Classic.
And ironically all of this adds up to the fact they’ve assimilated into a typical type of Portland resident.
The US has many good things to offer. I think the idea of a liberal utopia doesn't exist. I wish the author would give 'normal' American life a fair chance.
I think anyone considering America should really think about this line: "50% of voting population here voted for Donald Trump".
Donald Trump!! The 4 times bankrupt, lying, cheating, tv man was elected as the President.
What do you think that says about the population who voted? Seriously, America is no longer a paradise. It's a country full of people blind in their exceptionalism. It's violent. It's ruthless towards its own people to begin with.
Your post is totally incoherent, and you see everything backwards.
Objective national and foreign commenters consider Trump to be the best US statesman in the 21st century, from his corona travel ban, to understanding the need for a wall, to his handling of the CCP. They credit Trump with understanding and grappling with issues that no other politican is capable of gaining traction with.
And the left is burning down US cities, not Republicans or the right.
The US is the greatest and most powerful country in history, and for a large country is unique in how little racism there is.
But leftists can't admit to reality.
I'd like a reason as to why this is flagged. Everything I said is verifiable.
What made Oregon "liberal" is they had to figure stuff out on their own. Typical Pacific Northwest DIY mentality (see Olympia, Bellingham).
After the resource extraction industries died, Oregon really struggled to transition to mfg, education, tech. Think Spokane and other inland empire metros.
Oregon has the largest hunger problem. Basically a rolling crisis. They've had to take extreme steps to try to mitigate it. Pretty much on their own. So their safety net efforts are driven by necessity. Ditto health insurance.
In the 90s and 2000s, Portland city proper tried some proper good governance reforms. Public financing of campaigns. Some kind of runoff voting. Mass public transportation. I was very proud of them and hope they continued.
Portland's reputation as "liberal" is what attracts the whackadoodles. Proud Boys and the other hard right lunatics explicitly target Portland. Journalist David Neiwert's has covered these movements since the 90s and some excellent (depressing) books on same. In case anyone's interested.
It cracks me up that Seattle and Portland are considered "liberal" by outsiders.
The term "Skid Row" comes from Seattle. Think about it. A place to stuff all the undesirables.
How could any economies based on resource extraction be "liberal". Fortunes were made the Klondike Gold Rush and other grifts. Those grifters are local saints.
People have confused our independent minded conservatives, socially liberal, with left leaning. Nope. Prior to the Bible thumpers, we Nordics mostly merely tolerated other groups. But the core of PNW identity is manifest destiny and capitalism. Think Alaska with less suicide.
Business leaders in Seattle and Spokane smashed the labor unions. The trogs jailed the Japanese immigrants and stole their land. While early white settlers had mostly good relations with natives, the trajectory was what you'd expect.
"Liberal" Seattle and Portland is only in contrast to other cities.
The only truly "liberal" thing Oregon has done, IMHO, was proactively protect their rural, farm, and wild places. HUGE controversy when WA State tried to do the same (Growth Management Act). Driving around Oregon feels qualitatively different. And the mostly protected coast is a gem.
Also, Oregon was as close to a white ethnostate as has ever existed in America; in 1844 they passed a law that force freed any slaves after 3 years and expelled any free blacks from the state on pain of repeated lashings. The original state constitution forbid slavery, but also had a “whites only” clause.
Oregon has been a complicated place for a long time.
I think this article brings up an important problem wrt how people interpretation what “liberal” means.
Liberal != Left
> It's confusing because we tend to use them interchangeably in the US. But as far as the true meaning of the terms:
Classical Liberalism: the early form of liberalism popularized in the 1700s. strongly rooted in individual liberty in both social and economic matters. Opposes the idea of a strong activist government and believes in the free market economy and and believes strongly in freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc. U.S. Libertarians are often a good example of a "classical liberal".
social liberalism: A more modern form of liberalism. They generally believe in many of the same values: (market capitalism, individual liberty) but differ in the fact that they believe the government has more of a role in ensuring the market allocates resources fairly and making market corrections were the free market fails (social welfare, environmental regulation, etc.) they also tend to see more of a role for government in protecting people's liberty (lgbt protections etc.) Many mainstream Democrats are social liberals.
Leftist: Generally have adopted the term Progressive in the US. They mainly differ from social liberals in that they believe the free market system is inherently flawed to favor the rich and powerful and believe that the government should either work within the framework of the market system but heavily regulate it and pay for more social services and welfare through higher taxation on the rich and corporations (social democracy) or abandon the free market all together in favor of socialism. There are not really in mainstream figures in the US that are true socialist, but "progressive" figures in the US such as Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders (even though he calls himself a democratic socialist) tend to favor some form of social democracy.[1]
63 comments
[ 2.2 ms ] story [ 130 ms ] threadhttps://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/29/us/ice-hysterectomies-sur...
Europe is currently building walls along the southern (Ceuta, Mellila) and southeastern (Greece-Turkey, Hungary) borders, and relying on the mediterranean to act as such. It may not be a concerted effort, European politics is very much split up over the refugee situation. But even in the most pro-refugee countries, enforcing some boundaries and borders is still accepted by a majority.
They're not terrorist attacks, it's civil war.
From reading news reports over the past several decades, there's a pattern of civil war when the Muslim population exceeds 5% in a region, since they want their own community. Political Islam is not compatible with any secular system, and adherents are commanded to destroy competing systems and religions.
France's Muslim population is approaching 11%. Already French women are harrassed when walking down the street in many areas outside Paris as Muslim men don't want "gender mixing", and there are continual fatal attacks.
It's estimated there have been 31,000 attacks world-wide by Muslims since 9/11. It's odd that I haven't heard any from other religions.
If you don't understand the above as civil war rather than terrorism, then you need to do your own research to understand the events that are happening around you.
I'd like a reason as to why this is flagged. Everything I said is verifiable.
As far as international policy, the French were colonialists in French Indochina, while the US was just red-baited in, so the intentions of the US (though indicative of blundering stupidity) were not as bad.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
I think you will find that all of what I mentioned to be true, and it's your exact attitude that I get the idea that the US is anti Europe. Also, your comment is clearly against the site guidelines, I am surprised that your comment has not been flagged yet.
If someone does, I don't feel I need to be suspicious of most folks that offer help.
I don't have to worry about going broke due to health care, nor if I get sick and have to miss work.
Yeah, sure, people are still idiots and can be self-centered little turds. I'm no exception. But culture makes a difference. The way society treats different groups - like armed white supremacist militias - differs. Approaches to policing and prisons and rights differ. All this makes a difference in the way folks in that society treats others.
If everyone were truly the same, culture shock wouldn't be a thing.
I'd also like to state that Europe is a big place, with a wide variety of cultures and laws and customs. Living in Greece is going to be different than the Netherlands, which are both different from Norway.
Edit: For clarifacation, am American, and have lived in Norway for some years.
Trondheim is 180k or something. Not an issue at all. I was only a tourist in Amsterdam, but in general, walking around there at night wasn't an issue and cops didn't harass nor follow me. Folks (other tourists) were honestly worse during the day.
I've been pulled over and asked what I was doing out at night in the states, and multiple times got stopped to ask if I needed a lift because I was a woman. (seriously). I had folks worried about my safety... walking home a mile in a town of 3000 - leaving at 10:00pm.
I'm American. I'm a white female, and I now live in Northern Europe.
The only time I've had guns drawn on me by cops is when I've been with someone with dark skin, and statistically, you are more likely to be shot by cops if you are black. There is definite differences.
I've had folks help me in the states, I've had fake help because I'm female, and been stopped for being out late. No one bats an eye here, and I*m in the largest city I've lived in. No one goes out of their way to help in the states for the most part, and people won't vote to allow folks to even have a safety net nor healthcare.
In comparison, if I lose my hat at a bus stop, it'll probably be there waiting for me the next day here. (had the experience). I fell on a bike and someone stopped to make sure I was OK. I don't get harassed at bars by myself and I don't get harassed walking home from a bar.
Last time I came through customs was coming home from Amsterdam, and the guy was nice to me while he searched my stuff. I didn't feel the danger and apprehension that I get with American cops.
Sure, people are crazy here just like they are everywhere - which I've stated - but society as a whole is way nicer and more helpful and overall, fewer people treat me badly for being weird. (Am an immigrant, and everywhere has their buttheads, but most folks are nice).
Edit: I'll add that folks here don't randomly say hi on the street nor talk at bus stops. This isn't folks being nice in the states, but talking at people. People don't ask me "how are you" unless they are interested in an answer. Many parts of the US are full of superficial, fake niceties and this isn't friendly. It is just fake, and I'm rude if I don't want to take part.
I agree that there is no difference in the people if you mean that they are all hominids who for the most part speak languages to communicate and eat with their mouths and defecate with their hindquarters.
But otherwise every writer on the matter since Tocqueville seems convinced there are significant differences and I am in agreement, the only person I can think of that agrees with you is Vincent Vega, and he's fictional with an itchy trigger finger.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
That pattern seems to repeat itself as an anti-globalist revolution in the present, and one closer to the French Revolution in some aspects.
Here, I'm using "European" in the "Western European" sense like you presumably are. Eastern Europeans have an anti-Communist bent that resembles rural Americans' behavior.
Evangelicals are highly into their churches, which tend to fly below the analytic radar.
And surprise the "experts" at election time.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
That's independent of whether you think it's true. Nearly all flamebait has the latter property.
That's quite a claim given that the reference link doesn't even exist.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/14/us/oregon-armed-checkpoints-w...
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/15/us/oregon-fires-californi...
The usa has a lot of things going for it, "liberal paradise" isn't one of them
Also, seen from europe, it may be hard to get an accurate picture. The media do not really transport the perspective of the inhabitants accurately. And perception of the media is often skewed towards the more positive end, one tends to ignore negative information that contradicts one's premade impression. Even people you know who tell you about a foreign country will usually gloss over the bad stuff and dwell on the good.
Somehow, I can help but invariably notice the lack of mixed-races relationships in US movies et tv series, even to this day where diversity representation (slowly) improves in these mediums.
Maybe those were family-friendly to join (Proud Boys' we're probably too) but they're anti-family and pro-State in effect.
The fact that you joined Antifa protests shows you know nothing about true liberalism. Perhaps the time would have been spent better teaching your kid about the U.S. Constitution.
And ironically all of this adds up to the fact they’ve assimilated into a typical type of Portland resident.
well put, Sir/Ma'am, well put
PURE PERFECTION: And ironically all of this adds up to the fact they’ve assimilated into a typical type of Portland resident.
The US has many good things to offer. I think the idea of a liberal utopia doesn't exist. I wish the author would give 'normal' American life a fair chance.
Donald Trump!! The 4 times bankrupt, lying, cheating, tv man was elected as the President.
What do you think that says about the population who voted? Seriously, America is no longer a paradise. It's a country full of people blind in their exceptionalism. It's violent. It's ruthless towards its own people to begin with.
Objective national and foreign commenters consider Trump to be the best US statesman in the 21st century, from his corona travel ban, to understanding the need for a wall, to his handling of the CCP. They credit Trump with understanding and grappling with issues that no other politican is capable of gaining traction with.
And the left is burning down US cities, not Republicans or the right.
The US is the greatest and most powerful country in history, and for a large country is unique in how little racism there is.
But leftists can't admit to reality.
I'd like a reason as to why this is flagged. Everything I said is verifiable.
What made Oregon "liberal" is they had to figure stuff out on their own. Typical Pacific Northwest DIY mentality (see Olympia, Bellingham).
After the resource extraction industries died, Oregon really struggled to transition to mfg, education, tech. Think Spokane and other inland empire metros.
Oregon has the largest hunger problem. Basically a rolling crisis. They've had to take extreme steps to try to mitigate it. Pretty much on their own. So their safety net efforts are driven by necessity. Ditto health insurance.
In the 90s and 2000s, Portland city proper tried some proper good governance reforms. Public financing of campaigns. Some kind of runoff voting. Mass public transportation. I was very proud of them and hope they continued.
Portland's reputation as "liberal" is what attracts the whackadoodles. Proud Boys and the other hard right lunatics explicitly target Portland. Journalist David Neiwert's has covered these movements since the 90s and some excellent (depressing) books on same. In case anyone's interested.
It cracks me up that Seattle and Portland are considered "liberal" by outsiders.
The term "Skid Row" comes from Seattle. Think about it. A place to stuff all the undesirables.
How could any economies based on resource extraction be "liberal". Fortunes were made the Klondike Gold Rush and other grifts. Those grifters are local saints.
People have confused our independent minded conservatives, socially liberal, with left leaning. Nope. Prior to the Bible thumpers, we Nordics mostly merely tolerated other groups. But the core of PNW identity is manifest destiny and capitalism. Think Alaska with less suicide.
Business leaders in Seattle and Spokane smashed the labor unions. The trogs jailed the Japanese immigrants and stole their land. While early white settlers had mostly good relations with natives, the trajectory was what you'd expect.
The neocons were birthed in the PNW.
We're home to the Discovery Institute.
The National Prayer Breakfast was birthed in Seattle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Prayer_Breakfast
"Liberal" Seattle and Portland is only in contrast to other cities.
The only truly "liberal" thing Oregon has done, IMHO, was proactively protect their rural, farm, and wild places. HUGE controversy when WA State tried to do the same (Growth Management Act). Driving around Oregon feels qualitatively different. And the mostly protected coast is a gem.
Oregon has been a complicated place for a long time.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TZt-pOc3moc
Liberal != Left
> It's confusing because we tend to use them interchangeably in the US. But as far as the true meaning of the terms:
Classical Liberalism: the early form of liberalism popularized in the 1700s. strongly rooted in individual liberty in both social and economic matters. Opposes the idea of a strong activist government and believes in the free market economy and and believes strongly in freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc. U.S. Libertarians are often a good example of a "classical liberal".
social liberalism: A more modern form of liberalism. They generally believe in many of the same values: (market capitalism, individual liberty) but differ in the fact that they believe the government has more of a role in ensuring the market allocates resources fairly and making market corrections were the free market fails (social welfare, environmental regulation, etc.) they also tend to see more of a role for government in protecting people's liberty (lgbt protections etc.) Many mainstream Democrats are social liberals.
Leftist: Generally have adopted the term Progressive in the US. They mainly differ from social liberals in that they believe the free market system is inherently flawed to favor the rich and powerful and believe that the government should either work within the framework of the market system but heavily regulate it and pay for more social services and welfare through higher taxation on the rich and corporations (social democracy) or abandon the free market all together in favor of socialism. There are not really in mainstream figures in the US that are true socialist, but "progressive" figures in the US such as Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders (even though he calls himself a democratic socialist) tend to favor some form of social democracy.[1]
[1] Taken from Reddit, but you can confirm it on wiki. https://www.reddit.com/r/Ask_Politics/comments/6xlxpa/commen...