My eyes kind of open wide reading this, as if I’m reading a caricature of tech’s 1%. Back in Oakland, I had neighbors who had a sprinter van that they’d used before COVID, and they simply went on a very-extended road trip.
In a nutshell, I think maybe these people are trying to make it a bit too magical. Back when hackers and entrepreneurs were poorer and we had to work out of coffee shops, and not coworking spaces, it was obvious to everyone that reliable wifi was a must.
I broke away from the Bay myself, but I tried places out before settling in, because there are too many unknowns that you don’t know until you have stayed in a place. The lack of pragmatism in these stories is very not-engineering-like.
The lack of pragmatism in these stories is very not-engineering-like.
I didn’t get the impression that any of them were engineers. The way I read between the lines, most sounded like there was money coming from somewhere, but it wasn’t the business they were play-acting while on vacation. That, or it just wasn’t going as well as they thought. Setting up camp chairs outside a McDonald’s? I’d rather stay home. Turning a Tesla into a camper? You’ve done this before, right? No? Good luck with all of the new problems you discover.
From my POV, it read as folks with money and privilege discovering that money and privilege can’t smooth over every problem. It’s not unusual for the NYT, and if you think it is, read the weekend section where a couple “just starting out” has a budget of $2MM, and which 900 sq. ft. condo should they buy with that pittance?
My takeaway was that these people were more like "hustler types"
I mean, who decides to create a startup incubator focused on "sports technology" (whatever that is) after their "conference business" (again, whatever that is) becomes nonviable?
Not that it matters, hustler types and people with money and privilege often overlap.
Ya know, I didn’t really want to go there with “you know the type”, but I think you’re spot on. And your example was at the top of my mind when I was thinking of that “type”. Good luck ever figuring out if it is truly working out for them, or if they’re just burning money that might not even be their’s.
Is this meant to be a Schadenfreude sort of article? Are we supposed to enjoy their discomfort? Because I can't really see a ton of room for being sympathetic with people being frustrated trying to travel all over the world while we're in the middle of a pandemic.
All of these people have good jobs and could easily settle somewhere.
Maybe? I mean I did enjoy the 4th story of the person - who thought buying a Tesla and wearing a facemask that said "make america smart again" and then touring the US to get soak in the Americana - was a good idea. Kind of is the textbook version of Liberal Elite, and not sure how she wasn't that self aware enough to know that her trip wasn't going to turn out great.
With that kind of money, she could have gotten a nice camper van thing, a less opinionated face mask, and probably gotten on OK with the other 49% of the country.
I can't tell either. On one hand, this article seems like a response to the hundreds of other articles, instagram posts, blogs, etc we've seen over the past several months that endlessly romanticize these actions. The vast majority of people that I know that have done this, have done so with an attitude moreso that COVID is an opportunity for vacation than anything else. They bought vans and celebrated with gaudy influencer-esque Instagram posts, and then were dismayed when not everyone celebrated with them.
Though the problems like "someone was judgemental about wifi at a campground" are mundane, it can be quite a jarring wake-up-call to encounter if your attitude up to that point was that everyone will think you are some kind of fabulous unicorn for being a nomad. So from that perspective, I am slightly tempted to be sympathetic. And if this article discourages even one person from going on these ridiculous "we bought a van!! aren't we so cool? follow us on instagram!" escapades, I'll be happy.
But on the other hand, while the rest of us were struggling with real problems like being laid off, ill friends and families, and the soul crushing weight of responsibly not traveling, these assholes were out frolicking and potentially making things worse. And now this article makes it seem like they want our sympathy that there wasn't a pot of gold at the end of their rainbow? Come off it.
I'd love to hear some counter points to this article from those of you who are crushing the digital nomad lifestyle. Who prepared well, who are having great adventures, having the once-in-a-lifetime travel, and what you learned to make this go well, etc...
The only way to “crush the nomadic style” at the moment is to allow oneself to travel within their own country (or with very limited international travel).
This is likely more expensive than living in Thailand. I can’t afford nomadic living in the US.
Being able to calmly and piecefully experience the many cultural heritage sites, temples and gardens of Kyoto without any foreign tourists was one of those once-in-a-lifetime experiences for me (among others).
At the beginning of the pandemic my sibling, who lives in the US, left Silicon Valley expecting to work remotely permanently, bought a big house in a much much cheaper location and is pretty happy about that.
Not sure if any of the travelling digital nomad lifestyle stories are even real, people who have managed to fly somewhere usually got stuck there for many months with all the touristy stuff not working and had to live like regular people, rent regular rooms, apartments, houses, shop at regular supermarkets, etc.
> had to live like regular people, rent regular rooms, apartments, houses, shop at regular supermarkets, etc.
This varies by location, but that’s what I’ve always done. I generally skip all touristy activities until the last moment and just enjoy the different environment, food, vibe, people.
Living away from my hometown is advantageous enough.
The hardest part for me was the initial push to pack up and leave. Our general strategy is to stay in Airbnbs for at least one month at a time, triggering a discounted rate. All fees included, the monthly rate for the 2br/3br places we're renting is roughly the same as the monthly rate for a 1 year lease of a 1br or small 2br in a San Francisco. I've found people to be really friendly, including after they find out what we're doing. We don't lead an extravagant lifestyle, drive a fancy car, or generally rub people's faces in our nomadism.
I personally enjoy the forced minimalism of having to fit my whole life in a car, but I could see that being tough with a family.
I miss seeing my friends in person, but I wasn't able to that very much before leaving, anyway. And several of them are out doing the same thing, so there are opportunities to meet up.
Overall, it's not that different from living in a city long term, so the same things are important: choose your housemates wisely, optimize for the common usage (work, sleep, exercise), and don't pay too much attention to what the internet thinks.
Seems overstated. The article is 90% problems originating from crossing international borders, which, no duh, is going to be a problem, especially in a pandemic.
The rest, applicable to domestic nomadism, were milquetoast things like “judgment for using the campground WiFi”.
The part about 8 days being peak vacation happiness rings true. Once you’ve been somewhere for a few weeks it starts to feel like home and like a routine. This can be either really good or really bad depending on how nice the place actually is to live. Turns out most of the nice places happen to be expensive too.
Yes, but up to a point. For many of us on HN, the issue is that we’ve been forced to live in the Bay. But there are plenty of nice, “expensive” places that are still a lot cheaper than the Bay. The non-techie residents have had to leave for elsewhere for a long time now.
personally I think 1 month is the peak for me. I love that feeling of building a routine in a new place. Right now I feel like any place is going to get boring because we are stuck. May as well trade apartments for a month so we can get tired of a different routine and then miss the comforts of your home. Some time away makes the grass seem greener.
it depends on what you are looking for. if i don't stay in a place for at least a month, then it's almost not worth it for me. i want the routine, i want to live and work and not be on a permanent vacation. i have done both, backpacking for 3 months at a time, during student holidays, being a digital nomad where i stayed for days, sometimes weeks, essentially as long as i was welcome, or as long as my passport allowed me to stay, at someones couch. but i also got jobs with work permits and stayed for longer, so that over a decade i lived in 7 different countries and visited a few more.
20 years later i still don't consider myself having settled, i am just staying longer in each place. and i am open to new opportunities. i am just thinking in years now, instead of days or weeks.
I feel kind of bad for the single people whose lives have been totally disrupted by this. It’s actually been a pretty nice year out here in the exurbs. My parents are retired and live nearby, so they take care of the kids while my wife and I work remotely. Parks are never busy and our river was open even when pools were not. It’s been lovely family time.
Unsurprisingly, this piece focuses on outliers that are entertaining or cringey. The unsexy version of pandemic nomadism is safer, easier, cheaper, and boring enough not to warrant a snickering write up in the NYT.
My partner and I are currently spending around a month at a time in various medium sized cities in the mountain west. It is much cheaper than the Bay Area. The WiFi is good. The people are friendly. It’s not super Instagrammable, but that’s not why we came.
I think of this as a straightforward arbitrage. We don’t have to be in SF, and there are plenty of other places where we can live normal lives for dramatically cheaper, without the grime and city government shenanigans.
Thanks. It seems to answer my question below, a common consensus is "nomad" in your own country, and maybe don't think about it as the trip/time of your life.
I don't think they are outliers. I know quite a few people who have attempted the "covid digital nomad" lifestyle (and I myself have some experience as a nomad pre-covid), and although they haven't reported something as entertainingly cringey as posting up on a McDonald's sidewalk for conference calls, they're not too far off.
The logistical problems (working wifi, etc) are expected and avoidable to anyone with half a brain, but the bigger problem is the social divide. The story about the guy in Costa Rica seems to be the most accurate. There is a good amount of disdain for this type of lifestyle, especially during the pandemic. Among my "nomad" friends, the only ones that haven't come limping back home were the ones who successfully walled themselves off from external judgement and formed a "bubble" where they only associate with other nomads. Fun if that's what you want to do, but probably not what most people expect when they embark on this escapade.
Expats have always had it tough, and it takes a special kind of person to continue at it long-term unless they have to.
Most people just want to settle down somewhere they feel comfortable, and not always be a stranger in a strange land, unless they feel exceptionally drawn to that place, in which case they might stay.
I've been remote since mid 2017 and spent a year on the west coast before going to Hawaii and then short term leases before choosing to stay in one place.
Granted pro covid staying in one place was still littered with work paid for travel which I was planning to piggy back off of to stay an extra week in europe or what have you wherever it was while still having my own place. With airbnb and company paying for flights it becomes doable if you live a modest disciplines lifestyle at home to have a couple or a few more long intermittent stints elsewhere.
For me the year I spent on Airbnb for a month and then short term leases before finally getting a new one is the little things that add up. Maybe it's not as sound proof as you thought, getting lost finding the grocery store because you never thought you'd actually be tired of eating out. Or wishing you could always have a tea kettle at home to just have one thing consistent about your morning routine. The biggest one was not having a gym anywhere and needing to constantly innovate to get exercise because it's much harder to come across the good cookware and everything you need to cook a nice home meal.
The fees are higher for shorter term stays and if you only stay somewhere a month you find a great deal of your time sat 25% of the weekends is spent navigating airports recovering from jet lag and trying to understand where the basic neccisities are around you when you imagined the weekend exploring a cute city.
Finally forget social media. People just need to understand you can live a good life workout having to brag about or share where you are all of the time. That is the easiest problem to solve. Noone has to know where you are save your manager for time zone work hr expectations.
The real social drag is real life not the digital one. You'll find the off beaten path interesting but ultimately full of locals places even in cities you imagined to be more international or urban, and it's not easy to strike up a conversation at a bar and eating dinner alone every night can become dull even with the best menus. Traveling with an SO could be more fun but I imagine there's tension there about getting alignment on the constant myriad of small decisions that need to be made. Agreeing on the next airbnb, the other one misnavigated google maps...again. The restaurant the other one chose over your preference was underwhelming. You forgot the laptop charger at the airport and need to trade off with the other one. No alone time or time with other friends to balance eachother out.
The small things add up. Now when I travel I know the essentials to have. I don't stress about the small things. I know when its worth buying the flight that's $200 more and the $40 uber is worth avoiding the foreign subway system for the late night flight in. Etc. Kind bars and some basic sleeping pills make the worst of days ten times easier when you can't find a place to eat that isn't fattening.
Imho after a while I learned to stay in one place for a month atleast. No airbnb roommates. You deserve peace and quiet. Get on a schedule and try to live like a local. I did this in hawaii surfing. I didn't pressure myself to explore everything. I had a schedule I worked early morning to early afternoon surfed mis afternoon to sunset. Ate affordable seafood on the shore. Some shopping but mostly surfing and sleep on the weekends. I found my local spots lay low and stuck to them. It allowed me to stay productive but outside of having a schedule the main benefit was having a purpose of being there. Surfing. I was motivated and focused to get my work done got a good workout and slept well and made good ties with the surfer community by being there everyday enough to get invited to taco Tuesday trucks and enjoy some live music at it once a week. It was good and now if I travel I go to surf. It helps me focus on work feel a purpose for being there sleep better meet people quicker and still feel like I'm developing myself and a hobby whi...
The real social drag is real life not the digital one. You'll find the off beaten path interesting but ultimately full of locals places even in cities you imagined to be more international or urban, and it's not easy to strike up a conversation at a bar and eating dinner alone every night can become dull even with the best menus.
it seems that being more introverted makes this experience easier to handle. but i also never cared for meeting other expats, but i relished being among locals only.
but i did hate eating out by myself so i preferred to cook myself and watch a movie or something while eating.
Traveling with an SO could be more fun but I imagine there's tension there about getting alignment on the constant myriad of small decisions that need to be made. Agreeing on the next airbnb, the other one misnavigated google maps...again. The restaurant the other one chose over your preference was underwhelming. You forgot the laptop charger at the airport and need to trade off with the other one. No alone time or time with other friends to balance eachother out.
uhm, i somehow get the impression that here you missed the point of having a partner. at least for me, my partner meant that all these issues became irrelevant because the experience of sharing a life together is more important than whether i like the food, or whose fault it is that we got lost. if my partner was happy, then i was happy, and if there was a problem with the accomodation, then we'd discuss it and find a solution. part of having a partner is learning each others likes and dislikes, and find common ground, but not fret over how having a partner interferes with you getting your preffered choices.
Imho after a while I learned to stay in one place for a month atleast. No airbnb roommates. You deserve peace and quiet. Get on a schedule and try to live like a local. [...] It allowed me to stay productive but outside of having a schedule the main benefit was having a purpose of being there.
now you got it.
everywhere i went i became active in the local FOSS and tech communities, even when i didn't speak the language, where possible i found local musicians to play together with or connected with other communities that i had an afiliation to or interest in.
Airbnb. There is a lot of inventory available if you book 2-3 months out. It is pretty annoying to travel with a cat, as many Airbnb hosts mark their place "pet friendly" even though they don't allow cats. But we've still been able to find places.
Love this article but this is a great reminder why when you’re doing something cringe, fight every impulse to talk to the press about it. It will only end badly. And I say this as a former full-time journalist (I moved into engineering but I still do freelance stuff on occasion and I podcast), where part of the job (the core part), is getting people to talk to you, whether it is in their interest to do so or not.
Despite popular opinion, in most cases, the author isn’t going into the story looking to make the subjects look stupid and insufferable (if anything, the opposite is usually true — reporters often feel a sense of deference/loyalty to the people who agree to talk to them, especially on the record behind their own name), but the subjects just so frequently do it to themselves that to ignore that level of self-sabotage would be NOT doing your job correctly.
>At an R.V. park near Boise, Idaho, she noticed a Wi-Fi hot spot whose name was the equivalent of a middle finger directed at all Californians.
>During one curbside conference call in Eugene, Ore., a nearby man with a weed whacker began roaring his motor. Ms. Adair-Smith told him that she was trying to salvage her career. He didn’t care.
34 comments
[ 3.4 ms ] story [ 78.4 ms ] threadIn a nutshell, I think maybe these people are trying to make it a bit too magical. Back when hackers and entrepreneurs were poorer and we had to work out of coffee shops, and not coworking spaces, it was obvious to everyone that reliable wifi was a must.
I broke away from the Bay myself, but I tried places out before settling in, because there are too many unknowns that you don’t know until you have stayed in a place. The lack of pragmatism in these stories is very not-engineering-like.
I didn’t get the impression that any of them were engineers. The way I read between the lines, most sounded like there was money coming from somewhere, but it wasn’t the business they were play-acting while on vacation. That, or it just wasn’t going as well as they thought. Setting up camp chairs outside a McDonald’s? I’d rather stay home. Turning a Tesla into a camper? You’ve done this before, right? No? Good luck with all of the new problems you discover.
From my POV, it read as folks with money and privilege discovering that money and privilege can’t smooth over every problem. It’s not unusual for the NYT, and if you think it is, read the weekend section where a couple “just starting out” has a budget of $2MM, and which 900 sq. ft. condo should they buy with that pittance?
I mean, who decides to create a startup incubator focused on "sports technology" (whatever that is) after their "conference business" (again, whatever that is) becomes nonviable?
Not that it matters, hustler types and people with money and privilege often overlap.
All of these people have good jobs and could easily settle somewhere.
With that kind of money, she could have gotten a nice camper van thing, a less opinionated face mask, and probably gotten on OK with the other 49% of the country.
Though the problems like "someone was judgemental about wifi at a campground" are mundane, it can be quite a jarring wake-up-call to encounter if your attitude up to that point was that everyone will think you are some kind of fabulous unicorn for being a nomad. So from that perspective, I am slightly tempted to be sympathetic. And if this article discourages even one person from going on these ridiculous "we bought a van!! aren't we so cool? follow us on instagram!" escapades, I'll be happy.
But on the other hand, while the rest of us were struggling with real problems like being laid off, ill friends and families, and the soul crushing weight of responsibly not traveling, these assholes were out frolicking and potentially making things worse. And now this article makes it seem like they want our sympathy that there wasn't a pot of gold at the end of their rainbow? Come off it.
This is exactly my point. A bunch of princesses complaining about the pea under their mattress.
This is likely more expensive than living in Thailand. I can’t afford nomadic living in the US.
Not sure if any of the travelling digital nomad lifestyle stories are even real, people who have managed to fly somewhere usually got stuck there for many months with all the touristy stuff not working and had to live like regular people, rent regular rooms, apartments, houses, shop at regular supermarkets, etc.
This varies by location, but that’s what I’ve always done. I generally skip all touristy activities until the last moment and just enjoy the different environment, food, vibe, people.
Living away from my hometown is advantageous enough.
I personally enjoy the forced minimalism of having to fit my whole life in a car, but I could see that being tough with a family.
I miss seeing my friends in person, but I wasn't able to that very much before leaving, anyway. And several of them are out doing the same thing, so there are opportunities to meet up.
Overall, it's not that different from living in a city long term, so the same things are important: choose your housemates wisely, optimize for the common usage (work, sleep, exercise), and don't pay too much attention to what the internet thinks.
The rest, applicable to domestic nomadism, were milquetoast things like “judgment for using the campground WiFi”.
20 years later i still don't consider myself having settled, i am just staying longer in each place. and i am open to new opportunities. i am just thinking in years now, instead of days or weeks.
My partner and I are currently spending around a month at a time in various medium sized cities in the mountain west. It is much cheaper than the Bay Area. The WiFi is good. The people are friendly. It’s not super Instagrammable, but that’s not why we came.
I think of this as a straightforward arbitrage. We don’t have to be in SF, and there are plenty of other places where we can live normal lives for dramatically cheaper, without the grime and city government shenanigans.
The logistical problems (working wifi, etc) are expected and avoidable to anyone with half a brain, but the bigger problem is the social divide. The story about the guy in Costa Rica seems to be the most accurate. There is a good amount of disdain for this type of lifestyle, especially during the pandemic. Among my "nomad" friends, the only ones that haven't come limping back home were the ones who successfully walled themselves off from external judgement and formed a "bubble" where they only associate with other nomads. Fun if that's what you want to do, but probably not what most people expect when they embark on this escapade.
Most people just want to settle down somewhere they feel comfortable, and not always be a stranger in a strange land, unless they feel exceptionally drawn to that place, in which case they might stay.
Granted pro covid staying in one place was still littered with work paid for travel which I was planning to piggy back off of to stay an extra week in europe or what have you wherever it was while still having my own place. With airbnb and company paying for flights it becomes doable if you live a modest disciplines lifestyle at home to have a couple or a few more long intermittent stints elsewhere.
For me the year I spent on Airbnb for a month and then short term leases before finally getting a new one is the little things that add up. Maybe it's not as sound proof as you thought, getting lost finding the grocery store because you never thought you'd actually be tired of eating out. Or wishing you could always have a tea kettle at home to just have one thing consistent about your morning routine. The biggest one was not having a gym anywhere and needing to constantly innovate to get exercise because it's much harder to come across the good cookware and everything you need to cook a nice home meal.
The fees are higher for shorter term stays and if you only stay somewhere a month you find a great deal of your time sat 25% of the weekends is spent navigating airports recovering from jet lag and trying to understand where the basic neccisities are around you when you imagined the weekend exploring a cute city.
Finally forget social media. People just need to understand you can live a good life workout having to brag about or share where you are all of the time. That is the easiest problem to solve. Noone has to know where you are save your manager for time zone work hr expectations.
The real social drag is real life not the digital one. You'll find the off beaten path interesting but ultimately full of locals places even in cities you imagined to be more international or urban, and it's not easy to strike up a conversation at a bar and eating dinner alone every night can become dull even with the best menus. Traveling with an SO could be more fun but I imagine there's tension there about getting alignment on the constant myriad of small decisions that need to be made. Agreeing on the next airbnb, the other one misnavigated google maps...again. The restaurant the other one chose over your preference was underwhelming. You forgot the laptop charger at the airport and need to trade off with the other one. No alone time or time with other friends to balance eachother out.
The small things add up. Now when I travel I know the essentials to have. I don't stress about the small things. I know when its worth buying the flight that's $200 more and the $40 uber is worth avoiding the foreign subway system for the late night flight in. Etc. Kind bars and some basic sleeping pills make the worst of days ten times easier when you can't find a place to eat that isn't fattening.
Imho after a while I learned to stay in one place for a month atleast. No airbnb roommates. You deserve peace and quiet. Get on a schedule and try to live like a local. I did this in hawaii surfing. I didn't pressure myself to explore everything. I had a schedule I worked early morning to early afternoon surfed mis afternoon to sunset. Ate affordable seafood on the shore. Some shopping but mostly surfing and sleep on the weekends. I found my local spots lay low and stuck to them. It allowed me to stay productive but outside of having a schedule the main benefit was having a purpose of being there. Surfing. I was motivated and focused to get my work done got a good workout and slept well and made good ties with the surfer community by being there everyday enough to get invited to taco Tuesday trucks and enjoy some live music at it once a week. It was good and now if I travel I go to surf. It helps me focus on work feel a purpose for being there sleep better meet people quicker and still feel like I'm developing myself and a hobby whi...
it seems that being more introverted makes this experience easier to handle. but i also never cared for meeting other expats, but i relished being among locals only. but i did hate eating out by myself so i preferred to cook myself and watch a movie or something while eating.
Traveling with an SO could be more fun but I imagine there's tension there about getting alignment on the constant myriad of small decisions that need to be made. Agreeing on the next airbnb, the other one misnavigated google maps...again. The restaurant the other one chose over your preference was underwhelming. You forgot the laptop charger at the airport and need to trade off with the other one. No alone time or time with other friends to balance eachother out.
uhm, i somehow get the impression that here you missed the point of having a partner. at least for me, my partner meant that all these issues became irrelevant because the experience of sharing a life together is more important than whether i like the food, or whose fault it is that we got lost. if my partner was happy, then i was happy, and if there was a problem with the accomodation, then we'd discuss it and find a solution. part of having a partner is learning each others likes and dislikes, and find common ground, but not fret over how having a partner interferes with you getting your preffered choices.
Imho after a while I learned to stay in one place for a month atleast. No airbnb roommates. You deserve peace and quiet. Get on a schedule and try to live like a local. [...] It allowed me to stay productive but outside of having a schedule the main benefit was having a purpose of being there.
now you got it.
everywhere i went i became active in the local FOSS and tech communities, even when i didn't speak the language, where possible i found local musicians to play together with or connected with other communities that i had an afiliation to or interest in.
Despite popular opinion, in most cases, the author isn’t going into the story looking to make the subjects look stupid and insufferable (if anything, the opposite is usually true — reporters often feel a sense of deference/loyalty to the people who agree to talk to them, especially on the record behind their own name), but the subjects just so frequently do it to themselves that to ignore that level of self-sabotage would be NOT doing your job correctly.
>During one curbside conference call in Eugene, Ore., a nearby man with a weed whacker began roaring his motor. Ms. Adair-Smith told him that she was trying to salvage her career. He didn’t care.
Comedy gold.