Why does every country has to reinvent a wheel by building their own contact tracing apps (and failing in respecting privacy by doing so)? Wasn't there already one app open sourced, and if I'm not mistaken, it was made in EU, so GDPR compliance is guaranteed. Not to mention solutions provided by Google and Apple, but I cannot comment on GDPR compliance for those.
Australia then proceeded to bury its use. No references to it any of the updates, for months, never a question until a recent test when they asked if we have the app installed.
That they couldn't make it work on iPhone, to have it run in the background, was probably what sealed it. No such issues on Android.
> and Australia basically took the code and used it.
Australia basically paid $6million to a contracting company to take the Singapore code and badly reuse it... It was a pork barrelling rort from the start.
The one good thing to come out of it was a learned a lot more about how to use Ghidra to reverse Android apks... (I had a great deal of fun, along with a group of other people, seeing just where the .au app differed from the .sg GitHub code...)
Because then the politicians wouldn't be able to over-pay their friends software development companies to reinvent the wheel, produce a broken product, then get paid an extreme amount of money to fix issues that should have never existed in the first place.
Look at the crap show that was the development of Australia's COVIDSafe App. Huge bugs and security issues months after the release with no intention of fixing them.
Bunnie Huang wrote a good piece on how Apple/Google's Exposure Notification stuff doesn't allow as much determination of who got infected by who compared to more complete (but less privacy respecting) Contact Tracing:
Estonian contact tracing app was built pro bono publico by several app development companies and is open source. All code available here: https://koodivaramu.eesti.ee/tehik/hoia
I haven't read the article yet but if true it logically makes a bit of sense- contact tracing apps need a certain critical mass to be effective. Without enough people in a geographic area using it, you are left with a false sense of security, and may inadvertently take riskier behaviors.
Of course, it might still be helpful to let you affirmatively knoe you have been exposed, as opposed to trusting that you have not, but that might be asking a lot out of society.
That's where Google and Apple dropped the ball by not making tracing built into OS itself. Making it optional made it pointless. We've developed actual vaccine than a dinky student grade app. Despicable.
This is because they rightly recognized the backlash they would face if they did build it into the OS. Even if everything proceeded nominally from there, it would have been bad press and privacy complaints for many news cycles. And that's if there were no fuckups and the app worked well. If the public had any appetite for that kind of intervention, I'm sure those companies would have been happy to do it.
And for what upside? It's not like you're going to earn additional customers by having the better contact tracing framework.
Two ways this could have happened: western citizens could have demanded it loudly and with general concurrence, or western governments could have banded together and ordered it done. Failing those two, it wasn't going to happen. (China, Taiwan and Korea chose the latter route.)
Sometimes it’s ok absorb some backlash in the sake of humanity (or environment fwiw). Instead they are recording record profits specifically because of pandemic.
It's fine to wish for people to selflessly take on negative sentiment for the betterment of all. It's another thing to expect it. If we want certain behaviors, it's better to build systems that reward them rather than dreaming of a counterfactual that will never exist.
TLDR: The old COVID-19 contact tracing app was banned in June. "A new app is already being planned" (As of October 24, 2020). "The new app expected to be implemented this year (2020)."
I'm glad there's growing pushback to these programs.
Here in the US we tend to irrevocably lose a bit of independence and freedom in every crisis -- and it's often lost forever.
Wars tends to be the best fig leaf for eroding our civil liberties. Things like the Patriot Act get passed after 9/11 and are still with us today. The authorization for war given to Bush in 2001 is still active today, several presidents later, and has been used to kill and torture people in a whole host of countries. Figurative "wars" have resulted in erosion of rights - like the war on drugs - which gave us expanded civil asset forfeiture.
Covid-19 has given the governors a pass to do anything they like with little to no oversight. Banning any gathering of people is totally fine apparently. It's also seemingly fine to only use it against gatherings that are opposed to your political objectives, while those that you support are given a pass. Banning the expression of one's religion is also ok. (In my state all places of worship were forced closed, no matter what precautions they took, but vape stores were deemed essential businesses. I'm an atheist but this even bothered me.)
Maybe this is all perfect reasonable given the crisis -- but once these newfound powers are let out of the bag, we often find that they're hard to pull back.
Isn't the correct response to that ensuring rollback of the measures once the crisis has passed, rather than resisting commonsense measures during a crisis, though?
Like the 10th amendment? The 10th amendment seems to give a lot of leeway to States, assuming their respective Constitutions allow governors to take on emergency powers during a public health crisis which seems to be the case in most states.
These measures are common sense during a pandemic and should be limited in time. In many countries (at least France and UK) all these measures are bound in time and the time mandate is regularly renewed by parliament.
If locking everyone in their homes and pressuring them to wear surgical masks everywhere were “common sense,” they would be common practices already. They make no sense from a health perspective. The idea that healers should wield total power over the economy is similarly new.
The people of Melbourne/Victoria in Australia would like a word...
They went from a "second wave" of over 700 new cases a day, to just having hit 16 consecutive days of zero new cases - all due to lockdown restrictions and mask wearing.
It was tough on people. But it worked.
Looking at numbers like 160,000 new cases a day is horrifying. Death rates seem to be globally hovering right around 0.5% - that's a lot of dead people...
What you’re claiming to make “no sense” is working right now in France and Germany, among others. Your convenience is not more important than other people’s lives.
I wonder what case fatality ratio / infectivity combo it would take for people with this take on liberty to agree that sometimes societies should give up liberty. I am not sure there is one, I feel like we have a death cult in charge of our country. I wonder how many are dead because you have to die on a mask/gathering hill?
I feel like I shouldn’t have to explain it but when people take risks, like that large wedding that infected dozens of people, it later kills people who didn’t even attend.
doesn’t personal freedom end when the effects aren’t personal?
If we could ensure that restrictions would be no greater and no longer than reasonably proportional to the risk, I think people would be more willing to give the government temporary power beyond what the Constitution protects.
Given that the government has such a terrible track record on giving up power and a decidedly mixed track record of delivery of promised/hoped for benefits, plenty of people could reasonably prefer to protect a century of liberty.
Just because you believe that there is some benevolent authority that we can just "give up liberty" to an everything will be ok doesn't make it the only opinion, even if it's easier to think about.
It's easy to see how if there is attention and power that comes with a big enough crisis, everything suddenly gets framed as such a crisis (see rights violations, climate crisis, war on drugs, bullying, etc.) So you better hope that whoever gets to exercise absolute power in the case of a crisis is on your side and shares your values.
Those who trade liberty for security get neither as the saying goes. But I think the above is well understood, and I guess rejected by some, because I see so many positions that think giving away our freedom is ok.
What we really need are stronger politicians who can unite people and find compromises between freedom and public health measures, that help us collectively move forward. This crisis has shown how weak politicians have become (and how horribly technocrats and corporates have been at filling that void). Leadership is not forcing people to do stuff, that only makes society more divided and undermines attempts to solve problems. We need leadership and we don't have it.
I feel like I shouldn’t have to explain it, like the people who didn’t attend that wedding but got it from someone who did also decided to interact with the person who did.
There is a chance you could hit and kill someone in a car accident next time you go out. Should you have stayed home to avoid that risk? In any situation with risk involved there will always be stories like the wedding mentioned. The point is that people should be free to take on as much or as little amount of risk as they want. If you have compromised health or a very low tolerance for risk maybe you should make the decision to avoid people as much as possible, wear a mask, work from home, etc.
I see, so you should be free to go out spewing virus on people for whatever reason you like. Because you want to get a beer in a bar or eat out.
Meanwhile I should have to potentially quit my job, or not get groceries, live apart from parents, or wife, so I can avoid coming into contact with your selfish choices, indirectly.
1. If I did get it I would self quarantine. Not go out and ‘spew’ it. I wear my mask when appropriate, I socially distance, and I only go out when I need to.
2. I never said I want to go out to a bar. I want to visit my family and let them see my newborn daughter. I want my niece and nephew to have social interactions and a real education. I want to be able to conduct my business so I can feed my family.
3. Lockdowns and quarantines have already cost many, many people their jobs, time with family, time we’ll never get back, and it has even killed people. With current approaches everyone suffers instead regardless of their situation.
> Things like the Patriot Act get passed after 9/11 and are still with us today.
I just wanted to point out that some of the worst parts of the Patriot Act are no longer legal. Just this year many sections were not renewed, including parts specific to surveillance.
So this is article refers to the app developed by a company called Simula which is government owned and does various research in to communications tech and data research.
One of the few smell tests that I wonder if it was a catalyst for the ban is how they explained away not open sourcing the code and using aggregated data to track the spread of the virus.
It all lacked technical details which also is a bad smell test for me
In Singapore we have QR code’s and every mall/shop/building you must sign in. It works. Every case we know where a person visited and track down other who visited the same places at those times to get them tested.
We are at 0 community cases.
Anyone who says lockdowns and masks don’t work doesn’t know what they are taking about.
The reasons they don’t work is because people won’t take this whole thing seriously.
Absolutely, and its great. There's alot of people out, business as usual, 100% mask usage. 0 community cases (only import as people return to Singapore, but they are quarantined on arrival)
The only countries I would want to be in, is Singapore, Taiwan, or New Zealand. I wouldn't feel save in any other country.
Yeah, you got all the tech ready to go and become China's social credit system. People are already using it as it is mandatory. What is stopping the Government actually from doing it more "evil", perhaps in the name of counter-terrorism, saving the children, or something like that.
I do not know, it reeks of anti-privacy and it is dystopian to me. There are many ways of convincing people to wear a mask.
Regardless, my entire family tested positive. No symptoms.
Yes, that makes it easier to enforce for sure. But majority of the people here are also willing to do it. No one here feels like their 'rights' are taken away or that the Government made up the virus to suppress the citizens.
64 comments
[ 2.9 ms ] story [ 128 ms ] threadHaven't really heard much about the app any more. Now it's all QR codes. I don't think the apps work that well with Apple's bluetooth permissions...
That they couldn't make it work on iPhone, to have it run in the background, was probably what sealed it. No such issues on Android.
Australia basically paid $6million to a contracting company to take the Singapore code and badly reuse it... It was a pork barrelling rort from the start.
The one good thing to come out of it was a learned a lot more about how to use Ghidra to reverse Android apks... (I had a great deal of fun, along with a group of other people, seeing just where the .au app differed from the .sg GitHub code...)
Look at the crap show that was the development of Australia's COVIDSafe App. Huge bugs and security issues months after the release with no intention of fixing them.
https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=5820
They're animals. Animals, I tell you!
Of course, it might still be helpful to let you affirmatively knoe you have been exposed, as opposed to trusting that you have not, but that might be asking a lot out of society.
And for what upside? It's not like you're going to earn additional customers by having the better contact tracing framework.
Two ways this could have happened: western citizens could have demanded it loudly and with general concurrence, or western governments could have banded together and ordered it done. Failing those two, it wasn't going to happen. (China, Taiwan and Korea chose the latter route.)
Meantime: US CDC has issued "Warning – Level 3, COVID-19 risk in Norway is high". https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/notices/warning/coronavirus-nor... "CDC recommends travelers avoid all nonessential international travel to Norway."
Here in the US we tend to irrevocably lose a bit of independence and freedom in every crisis -- and it's often lost forever.
Wars tends to be the best fig leaf for eroding our civil liberties. Things like the Patriot Act get passed after 9/11 and are still with us today. The authorization for war given to Bush in 2001 is still active today, several presidents later, and has been used to kill and torture people in a whole host of countries. Figurative "wars" have resulted in erosion of rights - like the war on drugs - which gave us expanded civil asset forfeiture.
Covid-19 has given the governors a pass to do anything they like with little to no oversight. Banning any gathering of people is totally fine apparently. It's also seemingly fine to only use it against gatherings that are opposed to your political objectives, while those that you support are given a pass. Banning the expression of one's religion is also ok. (In my state all places of worship were forced closed, no matter what precautions they took, but vape stores were deemed essential businesses. I'm an atheist but this even bothered me.)
Maybe this is all perfect reasonable given the crisis -- but once these newfound powers are let out of the bag, we often find that they're hard to pull back.
Restricting religious practice or the right to assembly are not principles we should cede.
I'm uncertain if this is a good thing or a bad thing.
On one hand it could try new things and revert them if they don't work, and prevent temporary necessities from lingering.
On the other hand, it could also be used to pass truly terrible laws under the guise of impermanence.
They went from a "second wave" of over 700 new cases a day, to just having hit 16 consecutive days of zero new cases - all due to lockdown restrictions and mask wearing.
It was tough on people. But it worked.
Looking at numbers like 160,000 new cases a day is horrifying. Death rates seem to be globally hovering right around 0.5% - that's a lot of dead people...
I feel like I shouldn’t have to explain it but when people take risks, like that large wedding that infected dozens of people, it later kills people who didn’t even attend.
doesn’t personal freedom end when the effects aren’t personal?
Given that the government has such a terrible track record on giving up power and a decidedly mixed track record of delivery of promised/hoped for benefits, plenty of people could reasonably prefer to protect a century of liberty.
It's easy to see how if there is attention and power that comes with a big enough crisis, everything suddenly gets framed as such a crisis (see rights violations, climate crisis, war on drugs, bullying, etc.) So you better hope that whoever gets to exercise absolute power in the case of a crisis is on your side and shares your values.
Those who trade liberty for security get neither as the saying goes. But I think the above is well understood, and I guess rejected by some, because I see so many positions that think giving away our freedom is ok.
What we really need are stronger politicians who can unite people and find compromises between freedom and public health measures, that help us collectively move forward. This crisis has shown how weak politicians have become (and how horribly technocrats and corporates have been at filling that void). Leadership is not forcing people to do stuff, that only makes society more divided and undermines attempts to solve problems. We need leadership and we don't have it.
Yes, this is why all civilized nations outlawed whistling within earshot.
There is a chance you could hit and kill someone in a car accident next time you go out. Should you have stayed home to avoid that risk? In any situation with risk involved there will always be stories like the wedding mentioned. The point is that people should be free to take on as much or as little amount of risk as they want. If you have compromised health or a very low tolerance for risk maybe you should make the decision to avoid people as much as possible, wear a mask, work from home, etc.
Meanwhile I should have to potentially quit my job, or not get groceries, live apart from parents, or wife, so I can avoid coming into contact with your selfish choices, indirectly.
allrighty then.
1. If I did get it I would self quarantine. Not go out and ‘spew’ it. I wear my mask when appropriate, I socially distance, and I only go out when I need to.
2. I never said I want to go out to a bar. I want to visit my family and let them see my newborn daughter. I want my niece and nephew to have social interactions and a real education. I want to be able to conduct my business so I can feed my family.
3. Lockdowns and quarantines have already cost many, many people their jobs, time with family, time we’ll never get back, and it has even killed people. With current approaches everyone suffers instead regardless of their situation.
I just wanted to point out that some of the worst parts of the Patriot Act are no longer legal. Just this year many sections were not renewed, including parts specific to surveillance.
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/04/yes-section-215-expire...
You can find an interesting self Q and A https://www.simula.no/news/digital-contact-tracing-qa
One of the few smell tests that I wonder if it was a catalyst for the ban is how they explained away not open sourcing the code and using aggregated data to track the spread of the virus.
It all lacked technical details which also is a bad smell test for me
https://www.datatilsynet.no/en/news/2020/temporary-suspensio...
https://www.datatilsynet.no/en/news/2020/the-norwegian-data-...
We are at 0 community cases.
Anyone who says lockdowns and masks don’t work doesn’t know what they are taking about.
The reasons they don’t work is because people won’t take this whole thing seriously.
Good lord. Is it mandatory?
The only countries I would want to be in, is Singapore, Taiwan, or New Zealand. I wouldn't feel save in any other country.
I do not know, it reeks of anti-privacy and it is dystopian to me. There are many ways of convincing people to wear a mask.
Regardless, my entire family tested positive. No symptoms.