I am not sure how helpful most of these supplements really are. I'm more into exercising and "eating food, mostly plants, not too much". Beyond that, is there really that much that supplements can do?
Do you believe in eschewing certain foods and favoring other foods because of their health benefits? I don't see it as a huge leap in logic to believe that certain supplements - properly prepared, packaged, and delivered into the body - can confer similar health benefits.
The "eating foods, mostly plants, not too much" is a Michael Pollan line. One of Pollan's many points is that there is quite a bit of difficulty in separating out the good stuff from the bad stuff in foods due to chemical interactions.
His general reasoning is along the lines of "There are x thousand different chemical compounds in an orange, it's very difficult to say, well it's the Vitamin C that's the important one." (scurvy notwithstanding)
A good example of something like that is B12 and Iron Deficiency. You can be ingesting a good amount of Iron supplements but not have your actual Iron levels increase much if you lack B12.
That's not to say that there aren't some pretty clear wins (Vitamin D comes to mind) from taking supplements, just that the actual benefits are often less clear than some of the literature would state.
I disagree. Outside of a few specific situations (folic acid for pregnant women, etc.), most first world people satisfy their nutritional requirements. Micronutrients aren't a "if a little is good, a lot is better" situation. Once you meet your daily requirement, you're just passing most of what you take.
Further, of all the science done on CAM (Complementary and Alternative Medicines), only a couple of studies have shown a positive impact.
I don't doubt Kurzweil is a smart guy. However, there are plenty of smart people who have had theories like this. Eg., Linus Pauling and Vitamin C megadose theory. (see wiki for more info).
It may not seem like there's a stretch. But your perception of the logical continuum doesn't really matter. Most supplements are nothing more than snake oil. (Again, assuming you have an otherwise balanced diet).
Also, you have a fallacy -- eschewing certain foods is removing potentially harmful nutrients from your diet. Why would it logically follow that adding something would necessarily confer a health benefit?
I never said removing something from your diet is equivalent to adding something else. Nor did I propose "if a little is good, a lot is better".
I did say this: If the consumption of a particular food can be shown to have a net positive impact on one's health and longevity, and the properties that generate that positive impact can be distilled and consumed, it behooves us to do so.
Well, you said, "Do you believe in eschewing certain foods...because of their health benefits?" Then went on to state how it wasn't a huge leap to go from that to health benefits. I was just pointing out the logical inconsistency (irrespective of the CAM/supplement issue).
The evidence I have seen overwhelmingly states that taking supplements has little to no measurable effect in people with a sufficient diet. The reason that I wouldn't add it to my diet is the same reason that I don't take oxygen supplements -- as long as you generally have enough oxygen, there's just not a whole lot of evidence that you need MORE.
So, youre right -- chances are that there's not reason to NOT take them. But there's not really a reason to take supplements, unless you've identified yourself in an at-risk population. But those groups are few and far between compared to the number of people who take nutritional supplements.
Then again, I'd rather save my money than buy the modern equivalent of snake oil tonics.
Good link. I find it interesting that some people think that the point of singularity will be some cataclysmic event.
I use this analogy instead:
Many years ago, prehistoric man was inventing and creating tools at a certain (slow) rate. Then, one day, they created a tool that could create other tools. And the rate of tool invention accelerated.
Prior to that first point of "singularity", you could probably accurately predict the rate at which tools would be created. But you could not accurately predict what would happen once you had tools that could create other tools.
That "singularity" wasn't some cataclysmic point in time. But the rate of advancement changed dramatically then. I think we have another one of those coming up.
"Kurzweil takes 150 pills a day, some 70 to 80 different substances"
Wow, WTF. I can't imagine keeping track of all those, and can only wonder if he's overdosing on any of them. Doesn't it wreak havoc with your digestive system?
<Rambling ahead> That said, I do take vitamin D supplements since I'm not spending as much time outside as I used to(I miss the lazy days of summer in university), and thus not getting as much Vitamin D. Last year my doctor told me that my Vitamin D levels were low and prescribed a once-a-week dosage of 10,000IUs of it for a couple months. After that I started consuming 2,000IUs / day, 4-6 days per week. The consensus is that the minimum amount is 400IUs, so I do more simply because I know I'm inclined to miss a day here and there.
I suppose time will tell just how effective Vitamin D really is, but I'm fairly certain that I'm helping myself by taking it. Besides, an ounce of prevention's worth a pound of cure, and each $5 bottle of the stuff lasts me several months.
Why are you only taking Vitamin D if you believe "an ounce of prevention's worth a pound of cure"? Shouldn't you be taking a multi-vitamin, at least, in order to hit all the other vitamins & minerals you might be short on?
Good point - during my annual exams I find that I'm usually within good levels on all other nutrients that I get tested on, but I guess I'll find out in a few weeks when my next one comes around. Every multi-vitamin is different and I'm concerned about going over the limit on other nutrients like Potassium or something of the sort(a long time ago, I found myself too high on that particular one, and I wasn't on any supplements). I simply haven't had a chance to research each one in detail.
So, according to the article, there is:
1) No scientific consensus whether these supplements will make you live longer or not.
2) A web page where Kurzweil sells these supplements.
Can someone explain why I shouldn't think of this the same way that I think about homeopathy etc.?
First of all, I don't think that living forever is something that would be as good as it sounds to us now. Maintaining the viability of the body is one thing, mental well-being is quite another issue entirely. It may be that living indefinitely is torture. Or maybe the statistical nature of dumb freak accidents will give virtually everyone a MTBF of only a couple hundred years?
Secondly, there's a lot of things that could derail the singularity, whatever it is. Empires collapse. Shit happens. Who is to say that an economic or ecological catastrophe won't put an abrupt end to everything beyond getting to the next day?
17 comments
[ 2.3 ms ] story [ 45.5 ms ] threadHis general reasoning is along the lines of "There are x thousand different chemical compounds in an orange, it's very difficult to say, well it's the Vitamin C that's the important one." (scurvy notwithstanding)
A good example of something like that is B12 and Iron Deficiency. You can be ingesting a good amount of Iron supplements but not have your actual Iron levels increase much if you lack B12.
http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/diseases/facts/anaemiab12.htm
That's not to say that there aren't some pretty clear wins (Vitamin D comes to mind) from taking supplements, just that the actual benefits are often less clear than some of the literature would state.
Further, of all the science done on CAM (Complementary and Alternative Medicines), only a couple of studies have shown a positive impact.
I don't doubt Kurzweil is a smart guy. However, there are plenty of smart people who have had theories like this. Eg., Linus Pauling and Vitamin C megadose theory. (see wiki for more info).
It may not seem like there's a stretch. But your perception of the logical continuum doesn't really matter. Most supplements are nothing more than snake oil. (Again, assuming you have an otherwise balanced diet).
Also, you have a fallacy -- eschewing certain foods is removing potentially harmful nutrients from your diet. Why would it logically follow that adding something would necessarily confer a health benefit?
I did say this: If the consumption of a particular food can be shown to have a net positive impact on one's health and longevity, and the properties that generate that positive impact can be distilled and consumed, it behooves us to do so.
The evidence I have seen overwhelmingly states that taking supplements has little to no measurable effect in people with a sufficient diet. The reason that I wouldn't add it to my diet is the same reason that I don't take oxygen supplements -- as long as you generally have enough oxygen, there's just not a whole lot of evidence that you need MORE.
So, youre right -- chances are that there's not reason to NOT take them. But there's not really a reason to take supplements, unless you've identified yourself in an at-risk population. But those groups are few and far between compared to the number of people who take nutritional supplements.
Then again, I'd rather save my money than buy the modern equivalent of snake oil tonics.
I use this analogy instead:
Many years ago, prehistoric man was inventing and creating tools at a certain (slow) rate. Then, one day, they created a tool that could create other tools. And the rate of tool invention accelerated.
Prior to that first point of "singularity", you could probably accurately predict the rate at which tools would be created. But you could not accurately predict what would happen once you had tools that could create other tools.
That "singularity" wasn't some cataclysmic point in time. But the rate of advancement changed dramatically then. I think we have another one of those coming up.
Think that analogy holds up?
Wow, WTF. I can't imagine keeping track of all those, and can only wonder if he's overdosing on any of them. Doesn't it wreak havoc with your digestive system?
<Rambling ahead> That said, I do take vitamin D supplements since I'm not spending as much time outside as I used to(I miss the lazy days of summer in university), and thus not getting as much Vitamin D. Last year my doctor told me that my Vitamin D levels were low and prescribed a once-a-week dosage of 10,000IUs of it for a couple months. After that I started consuming 2,000IUs / day, 4-6 days per week. The consensus is that the minimum amount is 400IUs, so I do more simply because I know I'm inclined to miss a day here and there.
I suppose time will tell just how effective Vitamin D really is, but I'm fairly certain that I'm helping myself by taking it. Besides, an ounce of prevention's worth a pound of cure, and each $5 bottle of the stuff lasts me several months.
I worry about his kidneys having to deal with it.
Can someone explain why I shouldn't think of this the same way that I think about homeopathy etc.?
It's eschatology via William Gibson.
First of all, I don't think that living forever is something that would be as good as it sounds to us now. Maintaining the viability of the body is one thing, mental well-being is quite another issue entirely. It may be that living indefinitely is torture. Or maybe the statistical nature of dumb freak accidents will give virtually everyone a MTBF of only a couple hundred years?
Secondly, there's a lot of things that could derail the singularity, whatever it is. Empires collapse. Shit happens. Who is to say that an economic or ecological catastrophe won't put an abrupt end to everything beyond getting to the next day?